The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

[KingPin0422]

This is to be continued from here.

Introduction​

Two years ago, we made a major decision: we were going to revise the tiering system and refit it to be based more on math. As a result, not only did many characters have to be readjusted to fit the new framework, but multiple powers and even a rating that appears on two statistics scales were rendered outdated. Out of those, Beyond-Dimensional Existence was given a revision relatively soon after, with Conceptual Manipulation following much later. Unfortunately, multiple other important aspects of our system have been neglected, even after so long. This project aims to rectify this issue with some much needed revisions to these elements, including ones not necessarily tied to the aforementioned system revision.

The Topics to be Discussed​

Once again, I am required to offer a synopsis of the topics and their conclusions thus far. Furthermore, as soon as all loose ends are tied up regarding the discussion phase, we will need to organize a method for applying the changes, which will require careful planning and coordination in order to minimize errors. Without further ado, we shall open up the third phase of the revision as we did the second one: by addressing a statistic rating that is currently the subject of much debate.

Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength​

The Irrelevant ratings for speed and lifting strength are currently regarded as ratings specific to physical movement or strength that reaches a 1-A scale or greater. This is quite obviously a remainder of the era when 1-A was treated as a special tier that exceeded any scientific scale and could not even be approximated by our comprehension, and it got its name from the idea that speed and strength simply do not matter to 1-A characters on any level. Now that we have abandoned that notion in favor of a more mathematically grounded interpretation of this tier, it is necessary to reevaluate the meaning of this rating.

Despite initial near-unanimous agreement to remove the Irrelevant ratings, new definitions for both of them started to garner support:

• The new Irrelevant Speed rating would represent a "level of speed" that by definition is beyond speed, as the very applications of it are trivialized. Such characters simultaneously perceive everything across all of time and space, as well as their analogues at any level, in an eternal "now" that is beyond any "then" and "will be". It is distinct from Omnipresence in that an omnipresent character does not necessarily exist as a static wholeness even if they exist infinitely throughout space-time, nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply that the character is all-encompassing. It is also not Immeasurable Speed, as that merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula without completely surpassing all forms of speed.
• The new Irrelevant Lifting Strength rating follows the same pattern that Speed follows. In short, if Infinite LS means lifting objects even if they have a mass of ∞, and Immeasurable LS means lifting objects which do not abide to our usual physical notions of mass, then Irrelevant LS would logically mean that the very concepts of "mass" and "strength" do not apply at all. Again, this is distinguished from Immeasurable Lifting Strength in that one refers to a level of strength which exceeds human measurements of mass/weight, even that of ∞, while the other describes something utterly beyond strength altogether.

However, these have not been met without resistance. Some participants have contested that the very idea of some statistic being irrelevant is nonsense and would more accurately be covered under another rating. Others merely believe that it isn't viable for the purposes of VS debating as it makes matches with such characters impossible. How we are going to handle Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength should be discussed very carefully among knowledgeable members.

Transduality​

We have agreed to remove "specific transduality" on the basis that it is too obscure to be indexed: to wit, there is only one verse with characters that currently have type 1 transduality, and it does not have many characters that have it, either. The distinction between type 2 and type 3 is less decisive: some involved in the discussion would like to have a clear distinction between "transcending binary distinctions only on a limited scale while still being bound by higher forms of such" and "transcending binary distinctions on all possible scales within the context of the verse," but others see this as pointless and would rather merge the two types into one, especially since we have already done so with "Platonic concepts." The only type that is still up in the air is type 4, as no one has bothered to give it a proper discussion.

On yet another side, at least two people want to remove Transduality as a whole due to seeing it as a useless power with no real application that wouldn't be better described as something else. This proposal has been met with a lack of input.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence​

In part 1, it was decided to rename the power to "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" to accommodate the changes to 1-A and above. In part 2, I made an argument for possibly collapsing the power into a single type to encompass general aspatio-temporal physiology. But now it seems that no one is sure. No one is willing to discuss possible revisions to Beyond-Dimensional Existence, which is unfortunate as it is a fairly important power, even if it doesn't come up very often.

I am still open to removing the power's types and simply having it as a singular thing, but if some form of distinction is needed, I would say that perhaps type 3 can be integrated into type 2. It seems to simply be type 2 on an even greater scale (namely, High 1-A or 0), and it seems unnecessary when our system now allows for dimensions to reach 1-A or even higher, which in turn implies that theoretically, someone could be 1-A and only have type 1 BDE.

Conclusion​

In summary:

• New definitions for Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength have been proposed and are gaining acceptance, but some still insist on the outright removal of both.
• Type 1 Transduality will be removed for sure. Types 2 and 3 are still being discussed. Type 4 has yet to be addressed. Some want Transduality to be deleted altogether, but no one seems to have commented on this angle.
• The fate of Beyond-Dimensional Existence continues to be uncertain.

I hope that everyone involved in this revision project can continue to discuss potential solutions in a constructive and non-aggressive manner. This project is very important and I would like to have it be concluded in the near future, especially given how long it has been ongoing.

 

[Tago238]

Why are we making another part instead of just creating separate threads for each topic? Feels like there’d be more focus that way, plus the arguments that were being used for each subject stopped being particularly related to old TS revisions anyway.

 

[KingPin0422]

were they ever related to the old TS revisions actually

But yeah, I actually brought something like that up to Ant where we should try to tackle these issues separately because it would be more productive, but he insisted on continuing it like this. shrugs

 

[Tago238]

were they ever related to the old TS revisions actually

Something something “1-A isn’t special anymore”

But yeah, I actually brought something like that up to Ant where we should try to tackle these issues separately because it would be more productive, but he insisted on continuing it like this. shrugs

Ah well

 

[InfiniteDay]

This is to be continued from here.

Introduction​

Two years ago, we made a major decision: we were going to revise the tiering system and refit it to be based more on math. As a result, not only did many characters have to be readjusted to fit the new framework, but multiple powers and even a rating that appears on two statistics scales were rendered outdated. Out of those, Beyond-Dimensional Existence was given a revision relatively soon after, with Conceptual Manipulation following much later. Unfortunately, multiple other important aspects of our system have been neglected, even after so long. This project aims to rectify this issue with some much needed revisions to these elements, including ones not necessarily tied to the aforementioned system revision.

The Topics to be Discussed​

Once again, I am required to offer a synopsis of the topics and their conclusions thus far. Furthermore, as soon as all loose ends are tied up regarding the discussion phase, we will need to organize a method for applying the changes, which will require careful planning and coordination in order to minimize errors. Without further ado, we shall open up the third phase of the revision as we did the second one: by addressing a statistic rating that is currently the subject of much debate.

Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength​

The Irrelevant ratings for speed and lifting strength are currently regarded as ratings specific to physical movement or strength that reaches a 1-A scale or greater. This is quite obviously a remainder of the era when 1-A was treated as a special tier that exceeded any scientific scale and could not even be approximated by our comprehension, and it got its name from the idea that speed and strength simply do not matter to 1-A characters on any level. Now that we have abandoned that notion in favor of a more mathematically grounded interpretation of this tier, it is necessary to reevaluate the meaning of this rating.

Despite initial near-unanimous agreement to remove the Irrelevant ratings, new definitions for both of them started to garner support:

• The new Irrelevant Speed rating would represent a "level of speed" that by definition is beyond speed, as the very applications of it are trivialized. Such characters simultaneously perceive everything across all of time and space, as well as their analogues at any level, in an eternal "now" that is beyond any "then" and "will be". It is distinct from Omnipresence in that an omnipresent character does not necessarily exist as a static wholeness even if they exist infinitely throughout space-time, nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply that the character is all-encompassing. It is also not Immeasurable Speed, as that merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula without completely surpassing all forms of speed.
• The new Irrelevant Lifting Strength rating follows the same pattern that Speed follows. In short, if Infinite LS means lifting objects even if they have a mass of ∞, and Immeasurable LS means lifting objects which do not abide to our usual physical notions of mass, then Irrelevant LS would logically mean that the very concepts of "mass" and "strength" do not apply at all. Again, this is distinguished from Immeasurable Lifting Strength in that one refers to a level of strength which exceeds human measurements of mass/weight, even that of ∞, while the other describes something utterly beyond strength altogether.

However, these have not been met without resistance. Some participants have contested that the very idea of some statistic being irrelevant is nonsense and would more accurately be covered under another rating. Others merely believe that it isn't viable for the purposes of VS debating as it makes matches with such characters impossible. How we are going to handle Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength should be discussed very carefully among knowledgeable members.

Transduality​

We have agreed to remove "specific transduality" on the basis that it is too obscure to be indexed: to wit, there is only one verse with characters that currently have type 1 transduality, and it does not have many characters that have it, either. The distinction between type 2 and type 3 is less decisive: some involved in the discussion would like to have a clear distinction between "transcending binary distinctions only on a limited scale while still being bound by higher forms of such" and "transcending binary distinctions on all possible scales within the context of the verse," but others see this as pointless and would rather merge the two types into one, especially since we have already done so with "Platonic concepts." The only type that is still up in the air is type 4, as no one has bothered to give it a proper discussion.

On yet another side, at least two people want to remove Transduality as a whole due to seeing it as a useless power with no real application that wouldn't be better described as something else. This proposal has been met with a lack of input.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence​

In part 1, it was decided to rename the power to "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" to accommodate the changes to 1-A and above. In part 2, I made an argument for possibly collapsing the power into a single type to encompass general aspatio-temporal physiology. But now it seems that no one is sure. No one is willing to discuss possible revisions to Beyond-Dimensional Existence, which is unfortunate as it is a fairly important power, even if it doesn't come up very often.

I am still open to removing the power's types and simply having it as a singular thing, but if some form of distinction is needed, I would say that perhaps type 3 can be integrated into type 2. It seems to simply be type 2 on an even greater scale (namely, High 1-A or 0), and it seems unnecessary when our system now allows for dimensions to reach 1-A or even higher, which in turn implies that theoretically, someone could be 1-A and only have type 1 BDE.

Conclusion​

In summary:

• New definitions for Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength have been proposed and are gaining acceptance, but some still insist on the outright removal of both.
• Type 1 Transduality will be removed for sure. Types 2 and 3 are still being discussed. Type 4 has yet to be addressed. Some want Transduality to be deleted altogether, but no one seems to have commented on this angle.
• The fate of Beyond-Dimensional Existence continues to be uncertain.

I hope that everyone involved in this revision project can continue to discuss potential solutions in a constructive and non-aggressive manner. This project is very important and I would like to have it be concluded in the near future, especially given how long it has been ongoing.

On Beyond-Dimensional Existence:
I agree with your changing of BDE to A-TE, however I would prefer if there were simply two types as your mentioned, instead of one thing.

On Transduality: 2 and 3 should just be merged, there really isn't much of a point, or much of a distinction, between the two. I'm fine with 4 staying as it is.

On Irrelevant LS: Nuke it. Under our new system, it doesn't have much of a place whatsoever, and would be better put under Immeasurable. At this current point, it really only exists as a way to show that a 1-A character is 1-A. The very definition doesn't make sense, as "beyond mass" is a product of our previous system, and doesn't fit with ours.

On Irrelevant Speed: I agree with changing the definition, as it will fit within our system.

Been a while since this was brought up, so I could be missing important details.

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Crazylatin77 @Jvando @Zaratthustra @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @ElixirBlue @Dino_Ranger_Black @JustSomeWeirdo @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @The_Impress @Armorchompy @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96 @Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer @Executor_N0 @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Therefir @DMUA @Jasonsith @KieranH10 @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @Amelia_Lonelyheart @DragonGamerZ913 @Agnaa @Ovy7 @Ionliosite @First_Witch @KingPin0422 @QuasiYuri @KLOL506

This is an extremely important topic, so I would greatly appreciate your help here.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I personally support a new definition for Irrelevant speed, and the description of a new definition for Irrelevant lifting strength may be a good idea as well, but I am less certain about this case.

 

[KLOL506]

Once again, I have no expertise with stuff involving Tier 1-A or Irrelevant LS/Speed, so I kindly ask that you no longer tag me in such threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will try to remember.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Only opinion I have on what's left is "nuke this useless shit and stop thinking too hard on stuff no work truly use"

So gonna sleep through that.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not interested in discussing these remnants, so I don't have much to contribute.

 

[Tago238]

Actually yeah I'll give some input to bump the thread I guess.

• The new Irrelevant Speed rating would represent a "level of speed" that by definition is beyond speed, as the very applications of it are trivialized. Such characters simultaneously perceive everything across all of time and space, as well as their analogues at any level, in an eternal "now" that is beyond any "then" and "will be". It is distinct from Omnipresence in that an omnipresent character does not necessarily exist as a static wholeness even if they exist infinitely throughout space-time, nor does Irrelevant Speed inherently imply that the character is all-encompassing. It is also not Immeasurable Speed, as that merely refers to exceeding the measurement of the S=D/T formula without completely surpassing all forms of speed.

Describe "static wholeness" and how one can be "beyond any "then" and "will be"". I feel the problem with creating an irrelevant speed rating is that people start from the premise of "well there's got to be a rating for characters who are beyond any notion of speed" but the actual formulation of that isn't done too well because while they're perfectly capable of distinguishing it from immeasurable speed by vaguely making reference to the relationship to space and the pseudo causality characters with immeasurable speed have/follow, whenever we go into detail about how someone is "beyond" speed and what that would actually look like (and why it would actually look like that) and how this results in a victory in a vs debate proponents will just cling to the same word salad without properly answering the issues and think that's enough.

• The new Irrelevant Lifting Strength rating follows the same pattern that Speed follows. In short, if Infinite LS means lifting objects even if they have a mass of ∞, and Immeasurable LS means lifting objects which do not abide to our usual physical notions of mass, then Irrelevant LS would logically mean that the very concepts of "mass" and "strength" do not apply at all. Again, this is distinguished from Immeasurable Lifting Strength in that one refers to a level of strength which exceeds human measurements of mass/weight, even that of ∞, while the other describes something utterly beyond strength altogether.

Yeah this looks worse. What doesn't follow our usual physical notions of mass but also has the concept of mass apply to it in some nature? Also, why put quotation marks around mass and strength? Moreover, could you define strength here because a rating for that not applying seems slightly sus.

Transduality​

We have agreed to remove "specific transduality" on the basis that it is too obscure to be indexed: to wit, there is only one verse with characters that currently have type 1 transduality, and it does not have many characters that have it, either. The distinction between type 2 and type 3 is less decisive: some involved in the discussion would like to have a clear distinction between "transcending binary distinctions only on a limited scale while still being bound by higher forms of such" and "transcending binary distinctions on all possible scales within the context of the verse," but others see this as pointless and would rather merge the two types into one, especially since we have already done so with "Platonic concepts." The only type that is still up in the air is type 4, as no one has bothered to give it a proper discussion.

On yet another side, at least two people want to remove Transduality as a whole due to seeing it as a useless power with no real application that wouldn't be better described as something else. This proposal has been met with a lack of input.

I think I'm probably known as one of the main proponents for the deletion of transduality outside of the wiki but I'm tired of repeating myself to different people so I'll only really argue it when it becomes relevant on the thread.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence​

In part 1, it was decided to rename the power to "Aspatio-Temporal Existence" to accommodate the changes to 1-A and above. In part 2, I made an argument for possibly collapsing the power into a single type to encompass general aspatio-temporal physiology. But now it seems that no one is sure. No one is willing to discuss possible revisions to Beyond-Dimensional Existence, which is unfortunate as it is a fairly important power, even if it doesn't come up very often.

I am still open to removing the power's types and simply having it as a singular thing, but if some form of distinction is needed, I would say that perhaps type 3 can be integrated into type 2. It seems to simply be type 2 on an even greater scale (namely, High 1-A or 0), and it seems unnecessary when our system now allows for dimensions to reach 1-A or even higher, which in turn implies that theoretically, someone could be 1-A and only have type 1 BDE.

I think it makes sense to keep the name as it is to be honest. While transcending spatial and temporal dimensions isn't really the same as transcending dimensions altogether, it is a transcending a type of dimension so it's fine to include as a lower category. Although yeah type 3 is dogshit because either it's saying there's plenty of characters on the wiki who cannot be exceeded or it's just a higher level of 2.

 

[Tago238]

Oh apparently I didn't need to bump the thread, epic ig.

 

[Antvasima]

This thread is supposed to be for staff only, unless you get special allowance, Tago.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I cannot stress enough that I do not bear the expertise nor the interest to speak on such gaudy topics. I will leave this to Ultima and the High Tier Cabal.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't think there's much I can really help as I have said on previous threads, but will follow anyway.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Once again, I have no expertise with stuff involving Tier 1-A or Irrelevant LS/Speed, so I kindly ask that you no longer tag me in such threads.

Hop strongly agrees, and this is not appropriate for Hop. Tier 2-A and above explain themselves fine enough for Hop to not associate with explaining them or arguing the boundaries of them, if anything, prefers if they stay the same.

Also Hoppy Halloween!
ooOOOOoOOOOoOOOOOOooOoOoOoOoOOOO

 

[Therefir]

Aren't Irrelevant speed and Irrelevant lifting strength simply classifications that cannot be expressed by mathematics? Just like our 1-A tiers? I think they work just fine, unless Immeasurable is already filling that definition.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that our 1-A tiers can be expressed by mathematics nowadays.

 

[KingPin0422]

I feel the problem with creating an irrelevant speed rating is that people start from the premise of "well there's got to be a rating for characters who are beyond any notion of speed" but the actual formulation of that isn't done too well because while they're perfectly capable of distinguishing it from immeasurable speed by vaguely making reference to the relationship to space and the pseudo causality characters with immeasurable speed have/follow, whenever we go into detail about how someone is "beyond" speed and what that would actually look like (and why it would actually look like that) and how this results in a victory in a vs debate proponents will just cling to the same word salad without properly answering the issues and think that's enough.

Okay, but as stated by the Editing Rules, VS Battles is a power level indexing site first and a battleboard second. Regardless of that, the majority of characters who would qualify for Irrelevant Speed are also banned from being in VS debates in the first place (or at least not allowed to be debated seriously):

• Please note that although matches between 1-A characters are technically not forbidden, results from such matchups will not be added to the character profiles. Due to the unfathomably high gaps of power between characters within this category, and how hard it is to accurately compare levels of complexity between the cosmologies of different fictional works, these threads should not be discussed for anything beyond casual entertainment.
• It is not allowed to create versus matches for tier 0 characters, as they are impossible to exactly evaluate, which turns any results inconclusive.

This is outdated as hell, but it should still mostly apply unless something changed or is going to change. Point is, indexing takes priority over VS debating on this site, so we shouldn't try to brush off things which are relevant to the former simply to suit the purposes of the latter.

What doesn't follow our usual physical notions of mass but also has the concept of mass apply to it in some nature?

For the most part, ontologically greater planes of existence in which our physical laws and whatnot do not normally apply, a.k.a. the majority of tier 1. That said, I remember reading somewhere that space-time doesn't exactly have mass, which I can't even look for right now (it's almost 11pm here), but if true, this would apply to a large portion of tier 2 as well.

Also, why put quotation marks around mass and strength?

The quotation marks are for emphasis. That's it, really.

Moreover, could you define strength here because a rating for that not applying seems slightly sus.

Uhh... lifting strength. What else would I be referring to? (Although it technically goes for Striking Strength as well, honestly.)

I think I'm probably known as one of the main proponents for the deletion of transduality outside of the wiki but I'm tired of repeating myself to different people so I'll only really argue it when it becomes relevant on the thread.

Very well, then.

I think it makes sense to keep the name as it is to be honest. While transcending spatial and temporal dimensions isn't really the same as transcending dimensions altogether, it is a transcending a type of dimension so it's fine to include as a lower category. Although yeah type 3 is dogshit because either it's saying there's plenty of characters on the wiki who cannot be exceeded or it's just a higher level of 2.

Actually, since you brought up the difference between transcending spatial/temporal dimensions and transcending dimensions in general, maybe BDE is fine as it is. It might just need to be formulated a bit better to emphasize the fact that type 3 means transcending all dimensions (not just those of space-time) in some formal system - which would usually just be High 1-A, but there could be cases where "all dimensions" itself extends into High 1-A or even 0, even if that's extremely niche. Admittedly, though, it might cause problems with most 1-A characters already being considered as beyond dimensions in general by their verse, so we'll have to keep that in mind.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Just got a thought, since the whole "Irrelevant" doesn't really fit under the system, what would be the new names for them? Maybe Immaterial (as in unimportant under the circumstances)?

 

[Antvasima]

I would personally prefer if we mostly keep this thread staff only. I don't want Tago and others to hijack it from its intended purposes, so nothing happens here. This is too important for that.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Tago does give relevant input imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. To me it seemed to move the thread away from the issues that we need to get done though, but never mind, I suppose.

 

[KingPin0422]

Tago actually was given permission to comment by Abstractions over Discord, but if you need that to be done on this forum, that's understandable.

Just got a thought, since the whole "Irrelevant" doesn't really fit under the system, what would be the new names for them? Maybe Immaterial (as in unimportant under the circumstances)?

What's wrong with "Irrelevant"? It's an appropriate name for a rating in which speed/lifting strength outright doesn't apply to the character - in other words, it is irrelevant to them. (And besides, "Immaterial" in the sense you use it here means the same thing, so changing it to that would be pointless.)

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I would like to give Tago permission to speak here as well, if possible. He's one of the few sources of logical discussion so far.

Irrelevant Speed/Lifting Strength

So, before I even say anything on this, what characters would this even apply to? Immeasurable, as a whole, already is beyond speed as a whole, since, you know, speed is the formula. Same applies to LS.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence and Transduality

No comment.

 

[KingPin0422]

So, before I even say anything on this, what characters would this even apply to? Immeasurable, as a whole, already is beyond speed as a whole, since, you know, speed is the formula. Same applies to LS.

I guess...? We just take Immeasurable Speed as "it cannot be measured using S=D/T but it isn't wholly inapplicable" right now, and we give it primarily to characters who can move throughout time as if it were a spatial axis, which is different from time and space and any analogues thereof just not applying to your state of being at all, which is what Irrelevant Speed is about, basically.

Anyway, Ultima gave some examples in the previous thread, but the one thing I can think of right now that this would apply to is the Archetypes from the Cthulhu Mythos. As emphasized in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, the Archetypes participate in a changeless totality beyond perspective where all that was, is, and will be exists simultaneously:

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will.

CHIM users/Ruling Kings/Masters from The Elder Scrolls should also qualify while using CHIM, given that CHIM is a return to the first interaction between Anu (Stasis) and Padomay (Change) where there are no distinctions or dualities, not even between the aforementioned Anu and Padomay, as the latter is merely an illusion - a metaphor for how change itself is an illusion:

To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within.

The Second Nirn. The inchoate Nirn-Ensuing. The thought-form that anticipates the world to come: Tamriel Final. Anuvanna'si. Only Sotha Sil knows its shape. Its nature lies forgotten in the before-time when Anu broke itself for wisdom's sake. Our lessers know the Source as two forms: Anu and Padomay, but this binary is without merit. One of the Lorkhan's Great Lies, meant to sunder us from the truth of Anuic unity. Our father, Sotha Sil, would have us know the truth: there is no Padomay. Padomay is the absence of value. The lack. A ghost that vanishes at first light. A Nothing. There is only Anu, sundered and known by many names, possessing many faces. The one.

I can try to look for more examples later, but this should suffice, I hope.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

That makes sense, I suppose.

 

[Antvasima]

I also still support redefining irrelevant speed.

 

[Moritzva]

What kind of ******* name is “Aspatio-Temporal Existence”?

Aside from that, all the proposals in the OP seem reasonable.

 

[Everything12]

A very bad one that doesn't roll off the tongue in any way besides not wanting to say it.

 

[Antvasima]

Suggestions for better names are appreciated.

 

[Everything12]

Adimensional Existence? Or does that not meet what the Physiology is about?

 

[Bobsican]

"Adimensional Existence" is even worse as it's being redone in the first place out of such places still being bound to dimensions technically.

 

[KingPin0422]

On further thought, I think we should continue to use "Beyond-Dimensional Existence" because, well, it's about being beyond dimensions up to some scale (type 0 being the exception, but we call it type 0 for a reason). Type 1 is beyond a limited scope of dimensions (Low 1-C to Low 1-A), type 2 is beyond all possible dimensions of space and time (1-A), and type 3 is beyond all dimensions in general relative to a given system of math (High 1-A and 0). Of course, just being those tiers doesn't inherently make you "beyond-dimensional," since you can have any arbitrary number of dimensions - it's just that spatio-temporal dimensions (as we define them, at least) happen to have a hard limit of R^R in their size.

IMO, the only thing that should be done with BDE is that the types should be described better and the "Possible Uses" section should be rewritten.

 

[Antvasima]

On further thought, I think we should continue to use "Beyond-Dimensional Existence" because, well, it's about being beyond dimensions up to some scale (type 0 being the exception, but we call it type 0 for a reason). Type 1 is beyond a limited scope of dimensions (Low 1-C to Low 1-A), type 2 is beyond all possible dimensions of space and time (1-A), and type 3 is beyond all dimensions in general relative to a given system of math (High 1-A and 0). Of course, just being those tiers doesn't inherently make you "beyond-dimensional," since you can have any arbitrary number of dimensions - it's just that spatio-temporal dimensions (as we define them, at least) happen to have a hard limit of R^R in their size.

IMO, the only thing that should be done with BDE is that the types should be described better and the "Possible Uses" section should be rewritten.

What do you think about this @DontTalkDT and @Ultima_Reality ?

 

[InfiniteDay]

Snip

Eh, sure. Seems fine.

 

[Moritzva]

I am quite fine with Beyond-Dimensional Existence as a name, personally.

 

[Antvasima]

It is extremely unfortunate that we do not receive remotely sufficient staff help here.