The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

[Theglassman12]

@EmperorRorepmeTwo for something like a 1-A buff you need the concept of dimensions to be stated. Besides transcending all concepts with no mention of dimensionality is a NLF since that can easily be interpreted to be tier 0 or beyond because it can be interpreted in the highest end possible without any proof.

 

[Firestorm808]

@EmperorRorepmeTwo for something like a 1-A buff you need the concept of dimensions to be stated. Besides transcending all concepts with no mention of dimensionality is a NLF since that can easily be interpreted to be tier 0 or beyond because it can be interpreted in the highest end possible without any proof.

The context here is that the pure concepts of time and space while in a realm several layers into qualitative superiority are engulfed by the ultimate concept.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Some stuff to add here. The Monitor Mind isn't without full contradiction.

For one it was not aware of the Flaw until it pops up in its body. Which at that point it had to separate itself from this concept of preceding stories.

It defines itself as a concept separate from the Flaw. Nil as well as the Monitors that inhabit it are part of its mind to speculate the unbeknownst of the silent sentinel. Nil is just a realm that is higher than Limbo nothing of actual qualitative superiority to suggest transcendence. They're both superior to the Multiverse sure but the gap between both Limbo and Nil isn't that large. It's not until you reach the Source Wall and beyond that, there is a definite high qualitative superiority.

 

[Xearsay]

There's plenty of in comic evidence for the same thing

Not from Snyder, which you guys are arguing retconned Morrison’s interpretation.

 

[Firestorm808]

Nil is just a realm that is higher than Limbo nothing of actual qualitative superiority to suggest transcendence. They're both superior to the Multiverse sure but the gap between both Limbo and Nil isn't that large.

Limbo is a disc smaller than the finger of a denizen of Nil. I'm pretty sure that's superiority.

 

[Elizio33]

Nil is qualitatively superior to Limbo.

The inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods transcend time, for them events are an atemporal state of being compared to mortals who experience events as a sequential series of events.

Okay, but does that mean that the Sphere of the Gods is an infinity greater than the Orrery? Of course, the SoG exists on a higher plane of existence, but they don't perceive the three-dimensional plane of existence to be flat as Mr. Mxyzptlk perceives it. Sorry for the deraillement. I know you weren't talking about it.

 

[Firestorm808]

Okay, but does that mean that the Sphere of the Gods is an infinity greater than the Orrery? Of course, the SoG exists on a higher plane of existence, but they don't perceive the three-dimensional plane of existence to be flat as Mr. Mxyzptlk perceives it. Sorry for the deraillement. I know you weren't talking about it.

We also have it being a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds which contain the 5-dimensional Bleed.

New Genesis and Apokolips are higher vibratory worlds where all mortal universes exist inside bubbles.

 

[Firestorm808]

Not from Snyder, which you guys are arguing retconned Morrison’s interpretation.

We can discuss Snyder-related stuff soon. Let's just get the Morrison stuff out of the way first.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Sphere of the Gods is infinitely greater than the the regular multiverse. And Nil is literally infinitely larger than Limbo. The Gods in the Sphere are platonic concepts which affect the regular multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Limbo is a disc smaller than the finger of a denizen of Nil. I'm pretty sure that's superiority.

You're misunderstanding the meaning of the scan like anyone else that takes it literally.

This is what Limbo looks like from the outside from the standpoint of the Cosmic Armor in Nil. There is no scale to contextualize the actual size difference.

If it were proportional to some degree of infinite with actual context saying that Nil straight up is a realm that is “infinitely or limitless” larger than Limbo then there's is some superiority. If not re-read the scan and all it shares was this:

That's how Limbo looks from here.

Is it bigger? Yes, of course, it is because it's a higher realm viewing a realm below it.

It could be wording but it doesn't say much for us to know the actual size difference to suggest it could have a tier-up between these two realms.

 

[Xearsay]

Monitor ships that can adjust their scale to be gigantic within the Multiverse and to the size of cities within Limbo, were regarded as infinitesimal to the Monitors World. (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

Nil is qualitatively superior to Limbo. End of story.

Just some stuff about the Godsphere.

The Godsphere is outside of the Orrery as shown from the scan.

1. The entire reality is outside the Orrery and also encompasses it.(Multiversity Map)

The realm of the New Gods within the Godsphere is based off of Plato’s transcendent archetypal reality with the New Gods representing the ultimate forms/ideas.

1. The New Gods are described as living ideas from a “kind of platonic, archetypal worlds.”(Batman #702) In other words, the Godsphere essentially represents the fundamental reality of forms.

Bad things that exist and one can conceive of in the material world are just forms of Darkseid.

1. Darkseid is from a world where the stakes were ultimate stakes, where each moment was heavy with the massive weight of unfolding myth… and everything had a thousand extra layers of meaning. Darkseid might have been a wolf once, a dragon, or a tyrant.(Batman RIP)

The Gods are the basis of meaning and being to the Orrery.

1. The gods of New Genesis were described as absolute meaning and ultimate being.(Seven Soldiers Mister Miracle #1)

Similarly to Plato’s allegory of the cave, the material world can be seen as equivalent in size to an emanation of the forms/New Gods.

1. While falling from the Godsphere, Darkseid was said to be casting a shadow across the Multiverse that was falling over everything.(DC Universe #0) Making the Multiverse equivalent to an emanation casted by the archetypes.

Going off all of this, I think the New Gods and their world can qualify as qualitatively superior. Their world can also be considered a platonic archetypal reality to the Orrery with the Gods themselves functioning as the forms/archetypes within said reality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Monitor ships that can adjust their scale to be gigantic within the Multiverse and to the size of cities within Limbo, were regarded as infinitesimal to the Monitors World.

Nil is qualitatively superior to Limbo. End of story.

Except you just used the most saturated explanation that is not highlighted within the context of that scan.

An object that is regarded as infinitesimal to a place of origin specifically applies to that one place alone. This would have been more evident had it been also just plainly larger than each realm it was set in. This “gigantic” is nothing more than saying it was large and from that logic, Nil is larger than Limbo and the Multiverse which was already common knowledge.

 

[Deagonx]

Not from Snyder, which you guys are arguing retconned Morrison’s interpretation.

Snyder did retcon key aspects of it, that much is undeniable. This doesn't change anything about the discussion we're currently having.

Nil is qualitatively superior to Limbo. End of story.

So you admit that your argument was fallacious? Limbo can be seen from Nil, visually. You claimed this disproved superiority.

 

[Firestorm808]

Snyder did retcon key aspects of it, that much is undeniable. This doesn't change anything about the discussion we're currently having.


So you admit that your argument was fallacious? Limbo can be seen from Nil, visually. You claimed this disproved superiority.

Can we please settle Snyder's stuff afterward?

 

[Deagonx]

Can we please settle Snyder's stuff afterward?

The Snyder/Morrison stuff is combined. We can't really handle them separately, that was the big point of contention in the last thread and we reworked the cosmology to accommodate that.

 

[Firestorm808]

The Snyder/Morrison stuff is combined. We can't really handle them separately, that was the big point of contention in the last thread and we reworked the cosmology to accommodate that.

What I mean is "Here's what we agree on what Morrison's stuff says on its own" and "Here's what we agree Snyder modifies and its effects"

We need to understand the clear distinction between Step 1 and 2 of the Snyder retcon.

 

[Deagonx]

What I mean is "Here's what we agree on what Morrison's stuff says on its own" and "Here's what we agree Snyder modifies and its effects"

We need to understand the clear distinction between Step 1 and 2 of the Snyder retcon.

Okay. Well in that regard, I agree that Nil is superior to Limbo, but I am not entirely convinced about a lot of the conceptual stuff being discussed with regard to the Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

An object that is regarded as infinitesimal to a place of origin specifically applies to that one place alone. This would have been more evident had it been also just plainly larger than each realm it was set in. This “gigantic” is nothing more than saying it was large and from that logic, Nil is larger than Limbo and the Multiverse which was already common knowledge.

The Monitor ships shattered the sky of Limbo upon adjusting to size of the realm from beyond it. And when the Ultima Thule adjusted its scale to the bleed it appeared larger than universes.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The Monitor ships shattered the sky of Limbo upon adjusting to the realm from beyond it.

The sky of Limbo isn't the size of an uncountable numerical set of any notion. So it wouldn't really matter because again these are objects created from a higher dimension.

Could you scale the size of the sky of Limbo as to correlate that being the size of Limbo from the entry point? If not then that's just a baseless claim of something being bigger. That doesn't quantify anything.

And when the Ultima Thule adjusted its scale to the bleed they appeared larger than universes.

This is relevant how exactly? Appearing larger than Universes is a very arbitrary claim to make to scale objects from higher dimensions to suggest qualitative superiority.


Anyways I'm going to deliberately debate on this topic. So I'll ask you what tier you want it to be then if were solely going to oversee just Grant's interpretation right now.

 

[Xearsay]

Could you scale the size of the sky of Limbo as to correlate that being the size of Limbo from the entry point? If not then that's just a baseless claim of something being bigger. That doesn't quantify anything.

The sky is literally just Limbo’s reality structure, so I don’t really get your point. The entire realm of limbo appearing like a flat disk within a shelf in Nil was just icing on the cake.

Anyways I'm going to deliberately debate on this topic. So I'll ask you what tier you want it to be then if were solely going to oversee just Grant's interpretation right now.

What tier I want Nil to be? Well that’s kind of hard to answer without going off topic since I don’t really agree with how the cosmology was structured.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

What even is the argument for 1-A here exactly?

 

[Elizio33]

What I mean is "Here's what we agree on what Morrison's stuff says on its own" and "Here's what we agree Snyder modifies and its effects"

I thought the pieces of information from Morrison's Final Crisis and Multiversity were the pieces of information that were agreed to be combined with Snyder's cosmology?

We need to understand the clear distinction between Step 1 and 2 of the Snyder retcon.

Fair enough.

We also have it being a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds which contain the 5-dimensional Bleed.

New Genesis and Apokolips are higher vibratory worlds where all mortal universes exist inside bubbles.

Except the Bleed was already accepted to be 4-D rather than 5-D, so it's more like the Sphere of the Gods is a higher plane of existence than the Orrery which contains the 4-dimensional Bleed.

The New Gods seeing universes as bubbles does not come from Morrison's Final Crisis and Multiversity which were the pieces of information that were accepted to be combined with Snyder's cosmology.

How New Genesis and Apokolips being higher vibratory worlds support that they are an infinity above the Orrery? Okay, sure, they exist on a higher plane of existence, but that doesn't prove they're an infinity above Low 2-C.

 

[Robo432343]

Also, Lucifer's Creation is also Low 1-C it's an exact mirror of Yahweh’s Creation. The only difference is Yahweh has after lives while Lucifer has dimensions that goes down, up, or are unfishined unfiltered abominations. Some are not even abstract and are left disregarded and Elaine had to travel the distance to see these realms(dimensions) beyond the worlds(Universes). Since she traveled an infinite distance from her respected position this highlights Lucifer's Creation's size.

Remember Yahweh's Creations all repeat in the same manner and die as well. That's what he means by “Infinity answer Infinity” and “pattern persists and repeats.” If this is the case the Mansions should be Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. The Creations are not the only thing that fills it up and can contain more than infinite 2-A structures.

If mansion of silence is 1-C then vertigo void would be High 1-C

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

If mansion of silence is 1-C then vertigo void would be High 1-C

I'm not saying it is but there's is a distinct possibility it could be due to the reason I gave.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

What even is the argument for 1-A here exactly?

That the Overvoid is 1-A due to its being a non-dual canvas that all concepts and duality come to a halt in the abstract infinite intelligence it is.

So far from what I've seen maybe three people agreed to it while the rest didn't.

 

[Deagonx]

So, this is the pertinent section of the tiering FAQ

For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted.

The question is How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

My hesitation is that, the crux of the issue is whether or not layers could be added, infinitely so, without it ever affecting the Overvoid. I understand that the wording says "by virtue of transcending [physical space] entirely" which is likely true of the Overvoid, but arguably is also true for other realms/layers of DC, so it's not enough to simply being a conceptual layer above space.

I don't think any of the evidence strongly supports the specific notion that any amount of layers could be added, which is the manner in which Overvoid could be 1-A despite not having an infinitely layered cosmology. So without strong and direct evidence of that, I don't think we can use this shortcut to 1-A, and the transduality doesn't really influence that IMO.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

So, this is the pertinent section of the tiering FAQ



The question is How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

My hesitation is that, the crux of the issue is whether or not layers could be added, infinitely so, without it ever affecting the Overvoid. I understand that the wording says "by virtue of transcending [physical space] entirely" which is likely true of the Overvoid, but arguably is also true for other realms/layers of DC, so it's not enough to simply being a conceptual layer above space.

I don't think any of the evidence strongly supports the specific notion that any amount of layers could be added, which is the manner in which Overvoid could be 1-A despite not having an infinitely layered cosmology. So without strong and direct evidence of that, I don't think we can use this shortcut to 1-A, and the transduality doesn't really influence that IMO.

In short, the Overvoid isn't necessarily transcendent of concept. It's just that concept do not apply to it because it is non-dual. Until something such as “stories” tainted its perfection and it had to become a concept to contrast stories and bottle them.

This gives us the notion being non-dual is not exactly the same as being transcendent of any or all concepts. The only being that fits that notion is the Divine Presence which is also non-dual but also “oneness” which transcends both dichotomies in any or all dualities of concepts.

 

[Firestorm808]

So, this is the pertinent section of the tiering FAQ



The question is How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

My hesitation is that, the crux of the issue is whether or not layers could be added, infinitely so, without it ever affecting the Overvoid. I understand that the wording says "by virtue of transcending [physical space] entirely" which is likely true of the Overvoid, but arguably is also true for other realms/layers of DC, so it's not enough to simply being a conceptual layer above space.

I don't think any of the evidence strongly supports the specific notion that any amount of layers could be added, which is the manner in which Overvoid could be 1-A despite not having an infinitely layered cosmology. So without strong and direct evidence of that, I don't think we can use this shortcut to 1-A, and the transduality doesn't really influence that IMO.

I don't suppose we have enough justification for an at least, possibly rating?

Do we have any other similar example on the site as precedence?

An ultimate non-dual concept without limits or definition, which engulfed the primal concepts of time and space, should count for something.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't suppose we have enough justification for an at least, possibly rating?

Do we have any other similar example on the site as precedence?

An ultimate non-dual concept without limits or definition, which engulfed the primal concepts of time and space, should count for something.

Well, the Divine Presence seen in the DeMatteis stories seems to me even more qualified for the tier 1-A than the Overvoid but it is true that the interpretation that Morrison had with the Overvoid is similar to DeMatteis but the evidence is not enough to support a 1-A Overvoid. At best; "1-C, possibly 1-A" for the Overvoid might work, but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Well, the Divine Presence seen in the DeMatteis stories seems to me even more qualified for the tier 1-A than the Overvoid but it is true that the interpretation that Morrison had with the Overvoid is similar to DeMatteis but the evidence is not enough to support a 1-A Overvoid. At best; "1-C, possibly 1-A" for the Overvoid might work, but I'm not entirely sure.

Jumps like that are not really cohesive but if we were then the Void and the Divine Presence should have these features as well.

 

[Robo432343]

I'm not saying it is but there's is a distinct possibility it could be due to the reason I gave.

Yes the mansion of silence would be Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. but if we were to use this possibly rating for the mansion of silence then the void would be High 1-C
its like a domino affect or smth

 

[Elizio33]

Jumps like that are not really cohesive but if we were then the Void and the Divine Presence should have these features as well.

True

 

[Elizio33]

Yes the mansion of silence would be Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. but if we were to use this possibly rating for the mansion of silence then the void would be High 1-C
its like a domino affect or smth

Wouldn't the Void be straight 1-C or possibly High 1-C?

 

[Robo432343]

Wouldn't the Void be straight 1-C or possibly High 1-C?

I think we should just stick with 1-C for now

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Wouldn't the Void be straight 1-C or possibly High 1-C?

1-C is fine since it can fit everything infinitely with just a portion of the actual size it is. Then again there's no actual size to “infinity” per se and the fact Creations that are created endlessly which may or may not include things like Heaven, Mansions, and other realms outside the material realms.

Then I would say 1-C is a decent tier for the Void, possibly High 1-C is a little meh. I think the Divine Presence should only have that since the Void that can contain infinite-sized Creation is nothing but a part of it. It's the perfect mirror of Brahman, Nirvana, Final Heaven, Oneness, Ein Sof, Infinity, and everything else.

 

[Elizio33]

1-C is fine since it can fit everything infinitely with just a portion of the actual size it is. Then again there's no actual size to “infinity” per se and the fact Creations that are created endlessly which may or may not include things like Heaven, Mansions, and other realms outside the material realms.

Then I would say 1-C is a decent tier for the Void, possibly High 1-C is a little meh. I think the Divine Presence should only have that since the Void that can contain infinite-sized Creation is nothing but a part of it. It's the perfect mirror of Brahman, Nirvana, Final Heaven, Oneness, Ein Sof, Infinity, and everything else.

So the tierings for voids are:

• Overvoid/Snyder's Void: 1-C
• The Divine Presence: 1-C, possibly High 1-C
• Pralaya: 1-C
• The Void (Vertigo): 1-C

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

So the tierings for voids are:

• Overvoid/Snyder's Void: 1-C
• The Divine Presence: 1-C, possibly High 1-C
• Pralaya: 1-C
• The Void (Vertigo): 1-C

Yeah, I think that's good. Well, I say so at least, we would have to see what the staff say about it.

 

[LuciferX]

Do we have any other similar example on the site as precedence?

Shinza Bansho.

An ultimate non-dual concept without limits or definition, which engulfed the primal concepts of time and space, should count for something.

Transcending space and time don't grant someone a tier. It needs more context. Being above and beyond all concepts are barely Tier 2 without further context.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Shinza Bansho.

No that is not an example and certainly not the reason why shinza was downgraded

 

[Robo432343]

No that is not an example and certainly not the reason why shinza was downgraded

but shinza bansho has a canvas/backround thingy