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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3

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For now, the project will follow. Any additional add-ins comes later. Destroying Universe by Universe isn't Low 1-C, she scales to 6D granting her that tier. Her feats are much less and lackluster than that.
I want to note that it wasn't my intention to derail the thread or override scaling that was already agreed upon. if perpetua is accepted to be low 1-c, then that' that. I was just pointing out something to be taken into consideration later when the revision is mostly over
 
I partially agree with your point of view but Perpetua with the Totality created the multiverse (I still believe that she made the Sixth Dimension as the "penthouse" and "control room" of her creation but whatever) and it has been said many times that she can rearrange the multiverse in her image, hence the reason for 2-A, at least Low 1-C with the Totality. The 2-A tier is because she scales above the Ultra-Monitor whose power is unlike anything the Anti-Monitor has felt before, which should include the power state that he had when he was about to obliterate the infinite universes at the dawn of time. Anyway, let's wait until we make another crt to talk about all of this. This one seems to have achieved consensus and should not be overloaded with derailment. 😀
There was only a single universe at the begining. it became a multiverse overtime with possibilities. that's why it was stated that she created the multiverse, it doesn't mean she created infinite universes at once. other two realms (anti matter and dark matter) created later by her, so it's still a universal level reality warping feat.

Monitor Brothers aren't even close multiversal let alone being universal. About COIE event, AM and Matter can't co exist, it destroys everything in its path because of it's nature. it's basically a hax sort of. Anyone with anti matter resistance can tank that multiversal AM wave. It took several pages even to destroy a single universe when perpetua oneshotted a universe in a single panel.
 
So no Low 1-C, but rather low 2-C possible 2-C with amp
In morrsion's JLA run, it was explicitly showed that imps view 3D reality as 2D which proves qualitative superiority.

Yes. In Synder's view, I doubt whether they are transcendental planes However, three universes which held by perpetua were infinitesimal from sixth dimension which is enough for Low 1C tier imo.
 
actually
how does Lucifer scale to the void?
Like Yahweh, he doesn't but the thing is Lucifer can have a lot more freedom and flexibility than most beings in the Void. Even the Jin En Moks. Michael can create from nothing and Lucifer can materialize anything into shape. However, the Void will always be bigger. Yahweh is the Void as mentioned several times in #75.
 
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There was only a single universe at the begining. it became a multiverse overtime with possibilities. that's why it was stated that she created the multiverse, it doesn't mean she created infinite universes at once. other two realms (anti matter and dark matter) created later by her, so it's still a universal level reality warping feat.
That's true, she created three realms constituting her multiverse and possibly the Sixth Dimension as well. The World Forger created each universe inhabiting her multiverse afterwards. Regardless, here are some feats of the following characters:

Darkest Knight:
  • Created 52 universes, a 2-C feat.
  • His presence shook reality and burned out the lights of Hypertime, a questionable 2-B feat.
  • His fight against Perpetua was destroying the Bleedspace and the six universes left in the multiverse, a 2-C feat.
Doctor Manhattan:
  • Erased the Flashpoint Universe from existence, a Low 2-C feat.
  • Restarted the Metaverse, a Low 2-C feat.
  • His energies were used to match Perpetua wielding all of the Crisis Energy, a disputable tier.
  • Mister Mxyzptlk fears him and he's even more powerful than him, a disputable tier.
Perpetua:
  • Created three realms constituting her multiverse using the Totality and the World Forger created each universe inhabiting her multiverse later, a 2-C feat. Low 1-C if we consider that she created the Sixth Dimension.
  • Has multiple statements that she can remake the multiverse in her image with all of the Crisis Energy, a disputable tier for this.
  • Is portrayed as far larger than the multiverse in the Sixth Dimension and held her baby multiverse in her hands, a disputable tier for this feat or possibly Low 1-C given the higher-dimensional nature.
  • Her fight against the Darkest Knight was destroying the Bleedspace and the six universes left in the multiverse, a 2-C feat.
  • She oneshotted a universe and destroyed one universe at a time, a Low 2-C feat.
World Forger:
  • Created Hypertime in the Sixth Dimension which encases innumerable timelines, a 2-B feat.
  • Created countless universes in an attempt to make an utopian replica of the multiverse of 52 universes in the Sixth Dimension, a questionable 2-B feat.
  • Is portrayed as far larger than the multiverse in the Sixth Dimension and held her baby multiverse in her hands, a disputable tier for this feat.
  • Each strike from his hammer spawns a universe even within the multiverse, a Low 2-C feat.
Mandrakk:
  • Was sucking the multiverse dry of stories by consuming the Bleed, a 2-C feat.
  • Attacked the Thought Robot with the "blood of 52 universes" and with the "heat of 10 billion suns."
  • Is larger than the Orrery of Worlds, a 2-C feat.
Mr. Mxyzptlk:
  • Was slowly unimagining the fabric of the multiverse, a questionable 2-C feat.
Barbatos:
  • Was disrupting the multiverse or at least the multiversal frequencies separating the universes with his scream, a questionable 2-C feat.
  • Consumed the unstable universes of the World Forge, a Low 2-C feat.
Monitor Brothers aren't even close multiversal let alone being universal. About COIE event, AM and Matter can't co exist, it destroys everything in its path because of it's nature. it's basically a hax sort of. Anyone with anti matter resistance can tank that multiversal AM wave. It took several pages even to destroy a single universe when perpetua oneshotted a universe in a single panel.
I was talking when the Anti-Monitor gets sufficiently amped by heroes life forces to erase the positive matter multiverse from history, a very questionable 2-B feat.
 
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That's true, she created three realms constituting her multiverse and possibly the Sixth Dimension as well. The World Forger created each universe inhabiting her multiverse afterwards. Regardless, here are some feats of the following characters:
Actually 2-C is fine. There is no indication there that she created sixth dimension.
His presence shook reality and burned out the lights of Hypertime, a questionable 2-B feat.
One by one and it doesn't even mention TDK. Hypertime was dying for some reason from the begining of story.

Created Hypertime in the Sixth Dimension which encases innumerable timelines, a 2-B feat.
It's bit questionable feat and I don't think WF outright created an infinite number of timelines, he could create it through using infinite possibilities.
Created countless universes in an attempt to make an utopian replica of the multiverse of 52 universes in the Sixth Dimension, a questionable 2-B feat..
It was stated that WF use energies in World Forge to make realities and He can't do anything without his hammer.

Multiverse in Sixth dimension isn't a real one, it's an illusion.
I was talking when the Anti-Monitor gets sufficiently amped by heroes life forces to erase the positive matter multiverse from history, a very questionable 2-B feat.
Yeah and I was talking the same. It's not a multiversal feat at all.

Via feats, she would be 2C imo since wiki scale destroying or creating a space time continuum as 4 dimensional feat.
 
I understand that Perpetua was destroying one universe at a time and needed time to gather enough energy to destroy another each time, but given that she scales above the sixth-dimensional state of the Monitor Brothers, she should have a tier higher than 2-C. Hence my proposal for her tier on one of my comments above with the limited stamina based on the nature of Crisis Energy.
Actually 2-C is fine. There is no indication there that she created sixth dimension.

One by one and it doesn't even mention TDK. Hypertime was dying for some reason from the begining of story.


It's bit questionable feat and I don't think WF outright created an infinite number of timelines, he could create it through using infinite possibilities.

It was stated that WF use energies in World Forge to make realities and He can't do anything without his hammer.

Multiverse in Sixth dimension isn't a real one, it's an illusion.

Yeah and I was talking the same. It's not a multiversal feat at all.

Via feats, she would be 2C imo.
Nothing suggests otherwise either, she could very well have created the Sixth Dimension as a penthouse and control room for her multiverse.

Where it was stated that the World Forger used the energy of The World Forge to make realities? He already contains the energies of his realm, the World Forge, within himself, so it doesn't really matter.

For the World Forger creating Hypertime stuffs, you may be right but that's still a 2-B feat (2-A technically but the term "infinite" in DC is often contradictory).

The multiverse made by the World Forger in the Sixth Dimension wasn't an illusion, it was just incomplete in the sense that the World Forger needed his Crisis Anvil to descent his multiverse to replace the current multiverse that was supposed to be destroyed by Mxy with his own.
 
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That's true, she created three realms constituting her multiverse and possibly the Sixth Dimension as well. The World Forger created each universe inhabiting her multiverse afterwards. Regardless, here are some feats of the following characters:

Darkest Knight:
  • Created 52 universes, a 2-C feat.
  • His presence shook reality and burned out the lights of Hypertime, a questionable 2-B feat.
  • His fight against Perpetua was destroying the Bleedspace and the six universes left in the multiverse, a 2-C feat.
Doctor Manhattan:
  • Erased the Flashpoint Universe from existence, a Low 2-C feat.
  • Restarted the Metaverse, a Low 2-C feat.
  • His energies were used to match Perpetua wielding all of the Crisis Energy, a disputable tier.
  • Mister Mxyzptlk fears him and he's even more powerful than him, a disputable tier.
Perpetua:
  • Created three realms constituting her multiverse using the Totality and the World Forger created each universe inhabiting her multiverse later, a 2-C feat. Low 1-C if we consider that she created the Sixth Dimension.
  • Has multiple statements that she can remake the multiverse in her image with all of the Crisis Energy, a disputable tier for this.
  • Is portrayed as far larger than the multiverse in the Sixth Dimension and held her baby multiverse in her hands, a disputable tier for this feat or possibly Low 1-C given the higher-dimensional nature.
  • Her fight against the Darkest Knight was destroying the Bleedspace and the six universes left in the multiverse, a 2-C feat.
  • She oneshotted a universe and destroyed one universe at a time, a Low 2-C feat.
World Forger:
  • Created Hypertime in the Sixth Dimension which encases innumerable timelines, a 2-B feat.
  • Created countless universes in an attempt to make an utopian replica of the multiverse of 52 universes in the Sixth Dimension, a questionable 2-B feat.
  • Is portrayed as far larger than the multiverse in the Sixth Dimension and held her baby multiverse in her hands, a disputable tier for this feat.
  • Each strike from his hammer spawns a universe even within the multiverse, a Low 2-C feat.
Mandrakk:
  • Was sucking the multiverse dry of stories by consuming the Bleed, a 2-C feat.
  • Attacked the Thought Robot with the "blood of 52 universes" and with the "heat of 10 billion suns."
  • Is larger than the Orrery of Worlds, a 2-C feat.
Mr. Mxyzptlk:
  • Was slowly unimagining the fabric of the multiverse, a questionable 2-C feat.
Barbatos:
  • Was disrupting the multiverse or at least the multiversal frequencies separating the universes with his scream, a questionable 2-C feat.
  • Consumed the unstable universes of the World Forge, a Low 2-C feat.

I was talking when the Anti-Monitor gets sufficiently amped by heroes life forces to erase the positive matter multiverse from history, a very questionable 2-B feat.
2-C, possibly Low 1-C is a good rating and this is very good. This should be “at least” the final hearing. We can always add some stuff later. I also asked another Metal expert who is unbias and very knowledgeable and he recommends your exact rating. Although I don't think anyone has ever considered the 6D her “Creation.” I ask the three most knowledgeable people I know and none of them agree to her creating the 6th Dimension.
 
2-C, possibly Low 1-C is a good rating and this is very good. This should be “at least” the final hearing. We can always add some stuff later. I also asked another Metal expert who is unbias and very knowledgeable and he recommends your exact rating. Although I don't think anyone has ever considered the 6D her “Creation.” I ask the three most knowledgeable people I know and none of them agree to her creating the 6th Dimension.
2-C, possibly Low 1-C with the Totality seems reasonable to me. You all already know my opinion as to whether Perpetua created the Sixth Dimension or not, if the Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence and the control room of the multiverse, perhaps it makes sense that she created it, but I think most people here agrees that she didn't, so I wouldn't argue.
 
2-C, possibly Low 1-C with the Totality seems reasonable to me. You all already know my opinion as to whether Perpetua created the Sixth Dimension or not, if the Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence and the control room of the multiverse, perhaps it makes sense that she created it, but I think most people here agrees that she didn't, so I wouldn't argue.
I think at this point we shouldn't implement many changes for Synder/Morrison after we update the tiers. However, it might be great if we move on to the others in case we missed anything from the other Cosmology.
 
Like Yahweh, he doesn't but the thing is Lucifer can have a lot more freedom and flexibility than most beings in the Void. Even the Jin En Moks. Michael can create from nothing and Lucifer can materialize anything into shape. However, the Void will always be bigger. Yahweh is the Void as mentioned several times in #75.
I thought Lucifer possibly became the void in #75
 
I thought Lucifer possibly became the void in #75
It's funny that people argue about it but it never happened.

Holly Black Lucifer is a follow-up and we don't see Lucifer being any different from when he first left.

The real key here is the wording. Mike Carey has a weird writing style but if we remember clearly even to Lucifer the Void is Infinite and Eternal. Which was the exact description of Yahweh.

The irony here is when Yahweh told him the story of Buddha and the Monkey King, even though the Monkey King traveled to the edge of Infinity, all Buddha did was raise his hands and it show his will is everything. That same “will” that Lucifer defines. This tells us something about Michael and Lucifer and their powers.

Lucifer and Michael aren't not technically “infinite.” Their power source is of “infinity but they are just aspect of that “infinity.” This is why Michael's powers are regarded as “a spark that expands forever rather than it being an infinite spark. This is why he bled Power and was growing weaker although the process would take forever. Not to mention it's the power of God, not the power of Michael. The same applies to Lucifer, the light he shines is his father's, not his.

This is important because Lucifer said even when you fill everything to a portion of the Void, they all amount to zero. Like how Yahweh's actions will reach across everything in Creation if he chooses to. Lucifer just imposed his will like how the Flaw did to the Overvoid but the Overvoid still finds the Flaw infinitesimal.
 
It's funny that people argue about it but it never happened.

Holly Black Lucifer is a follow-up and we don't see Lucifer being any different from when he first left.
No way im treating Holly Black's Lucifer as canon to volume 1 tho
The real key here is the wording. Mike Carey has a weird writing style but if we remember clearly even to Lucifer the Void is Infinite and Eternal. Which was the exact description of Yahweh.

The irony here is when Yahweh told him the story of Buddha and the Monkey King, even though the Monkey King traveled to the edge of Infinity, all Buddha did was raise his hands and it show his will is everything. That same “will” that Lucifer defines. This tells us something about Michael and Lucifer and their powers.

Lucifer and Michael aren't not technically “infinite.” Their power source is of “infinity but they are just aspect of that “infinity.” This is why Michael's powers are regarded as “a spark that expands forever rather than it being an infinite spark. This is why he bled Power and was growing weaker although the process would take forever. Not to mention it's the power of God, not the power of Michael. The same applies to Lucifer, the light he shines is his father's, not his.

This is important because Lucifer said even when you fill everything to a portion of the Void, they all amount to zero. Like how Yahweh's actions will reach across everything in Creation if he chooses to. Lucifer just imposed his will like how the Flaw did to the Overvoid but the Overvoid still finds the Flaw infinitesimal.
Ah i see
Lucifer imposing his will on the void isn't getting him to 1-C then?
 
No way im treating Holly Black's Lucifer as canon to volume 1 tho

Ah i see
Lucifer imposing his will on the void isn't getting him to 1-C then?
The funny thing is Gabriel killed God but they discarded this when they changed writers and when Holly Black wasn't in control. So they retcon that God is not his reincarnation but someone else entirely trying to be the old God that the angels perceived to be dead due to Metatron's influence. However, it is technically the follow-up of Carey's runs. Watters is not a part of that anthology but it is Lucifer just during a different time and with a different approach. Their all Lucifer Morningstar in expectation to Demon Knights.

No, it's not 1-C.
 
The funny thing is Gabriel killed God but they discarded this when they changed writers and when Holly Black wasn't in control. So they retcon that God is not his reincarnation but someone else entirely trying to be the old God that the angels perceived to be dead due to Metatron's influence. However, it is technically the follow-up of Carey's runs. Watters is not a part of that anthology but it is Lucifer just during a different time and with a different approach. Their all Lucifer Morningstar in expectation to Demon Knights.
Ok its true that it is a follow up of carey's run but its just so inconsistent and garbage to be taken literally

Also is 2018 lucifer going to have a separate key or are his feats going to be on the same profile? thats something we didnt consider
 
Ok its true that it is a follow up of carey's run but its just so inconsistent and garbage to be taken literally

Also is 2018 lucifer going to have a separate key or are his feats going to be on the same profile? thats something we didnt consider
There shouldn't be a separate key because they all are Lucifer. Although it doesn't follow the approach of Carey. Watters, Lucifer is still technically in Sandman continuity because he we see him in Sandman: Universe Vol.1 #1 and some references to the Endless. Not to mention he exists in all continuity because his not affected by flashpoints or any reboot. It would have to be a straight rewrite that doesn't follow up like Demon Knights which follows the Demon and has a weird approach to Lucifer.

Carey is may have set the market for Lucifer but his way I feel was different than Gaiman's. Gaiman may illude to the idea Lucifer is the second most powerful but I don't think he would add elements of Gnosticism with his.
 
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Hey, weren't we supposed to reopen the DC herald upgrade thread after Ant is done with his vacation?
We're going to start a new thread that focus solely on the feats that got significant staff approval to evaluate them once more, since the massive amount of feats in the original thread made it hard to give appropriate attention to each one, and now there's too many posts for staff that haven't seen it yet to reasonably go through.
 
I think at this point we shouldn't implement many changes for Synder/Morrison after we update the tiers. However, it might be great if we move on to the others in case we missed anything from the other Cosmology.
Yeah you are right. Just speaking, nothing set in stone and just for fun until the next crt, here are my thoughts on how characters should be tiered based on their feats and scaling.

Grant Morrison & Scott Snyder DC cosmology
  • The Source/Monitor-Mind/The Presence: 1-C
  • The Hands: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Perpetua: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Darkest Knight: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Dr. Manhattan: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Monitor Brothers: High 3-A | 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Mandrakk & Thought Robot: 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Mr. Mxyzptlk: 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Hecate & Upside-Down Man: 2-C
  • New Gods (Godhead): 2-C
Adding Joshua Williamson's work, the Great Darkness would be 1-C. Pariah would be 2-C, possibly 2-A with the fraction of the Great Darkness. Empty Hand would be 2-C. The reasoning behind the "2-C, possibly Low 1-C" tier starting with Mr. Mxyzptlk up to The Hands, is based on the feats that Perpetua and the Darkest Knight have shown in the comics, coupled with the fact that they are qualitatively superior to the Orrery and the Sphere of the Gods. For exemple, Thought Robot perceives Comic Book Limbo, a higher plane than the Sphere of the Gods, as an infinitesimal disk and Perpetua and the Monitor Brothers are portrayed as far larger than creation.
 
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My two cents:
1. In a world where everyone talks about their verse being nth dimension higher, and DC is one of the verses to be inventing the concept of author tier or boundless tier, it is counter intuitive we say DC universe is downplayed or even downgraded to 1-C or below without some strong arguments.
2. If we want to instead divide the pages of different characters portrayed by different authors then however it is fair game.
3. Be very careful and in the same level of strictness and leniency in examining the DC omniverse as when examining other omniverses from other verses.
 
Yeah you are right. Just speaking, nothing set in stone and just for fun until the next crt, here are my thoughts on how characters should be tiered based on their feats and scaling.

Grant Morrison & Scott Snyder DC cosmology
  • The Source/Monitor-Mind/The Presence: 1-C
  • The Hands: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Perpetua: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Darkest Knight: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Dr. Manhattan: At least 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Monitor Brothers: High 3-A | 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Mandrakk & Thought Robot: 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Mr. Mxyzptlk: 2-C, possibly Low 1-C
  • Hecate & Upside-Down Man: 2-C
  • New Gods (Godhead): 2-C
Adding Joshua Williamson's work, the Great Darkness would be 1-C. Pariah would be 2-C, possibly 2-A with the fraction of the Great Darkness. Empty Hand would be 2-C. The reasoning behind the "2-C, possibly Low 1-C" tier starting with Mr. Mxyzptlk up to The Hands, is based on the feats that Perpetua and the Darkest Knight have shown in the comics, coupled with the fact that they are qualitatively superior to the Orrery and the Sphere of the Gods. For exemple, Thought Robot perceives Comic Book Limbo, a higher plane than the Sphere of the Gods, as an infinitesimal disk and Perpetua and the Monitor Brothers are portrayed as far larger than creation.
With Mandrakk and CAS, they shouldn't scale to Nil. Being a resident of Nil doesn't really grant you are tier so much to say because they scale to it. Being from a specific plane shouldn't really grant that same tier.

It's not like the Brothers Three could destroy the 6th Dimension or create a structure near it in size. They randomly can't just make Multiverse given that's Perpetua's task and not theirs. It's also a painstakingly long process for them and Perpetua also needs a few things in order to even make a Low 2-C structure or destroy one.

As for Nil residents, they don't really control much there. They just exist in it as ideas beyond the conventional lower one until all surrender to the Overvoid that sits at the edge of the Monitor world. Dax Novu at best could possibly “dream” of draining the 52 Universe and maybe if given time drain the positive matter Multiverse. That's really about it nothing suggests he could destroy it unless given an ample amount of time. They should scale to where they are supported by facts not because they are part of a higher place.

If not every angel in the Silver City should be Low 1-C. Even Demons who are in Hell should be in that tier as well. That's would upscale the higher tiers then. You see where the problem lies if we scale based on where they inhabit? I could be nitpicking but it's something to think about.

Overviewing the Orrery and being master of the Overvoid created by its speculation of the silent sentinel. Should scale them to the Orrery, not to the Nil in Monitor Sphere. So “possibly” really shouldn't exist because there isn't a possibility they can achieve it unless we only take them to scale from where they inhabit. If that is the case ignore my argument, if not something to think about.
 
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While rating them to Low 1-C only is a bit uncertain for Mandrakk, Thought Robot, Perpetua and the Monitor Brothers, they are qualitatively superior to the Orrery and the Sphere of the Gods, hence the reasoning behind the 2-C, possibly Low 1-C Tier. Here, I think the "possibly Low 1-C" is very reasonable.

Nil Monitors needs to alter their scales and pitches to just enter the multiverse they call the "germ world" and Thought Robot perceives Comic Book Limbo as an infinitesimal disc and held it with two fingers. Monitor Brothers and Perpetua are portrayed as far larger than the multiverse and Perpetua held it in her hands.
 
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Pretty big lowball. Considering Grant Morrisons vision on the Orrery with each universe being its own authored work and whatnot

Which would obviously include Morrisons already accepted at least 1-B Animal Man cosmology.
But eh, pretty busy to do anything about that at the current moment.
 
Pretty big lowball. Considering Grant Morrisons vision on the Orrery with each universe being its own authored work and whatnot

Which would obviously include Morrisons already accepted at least 1-B Animal Man cosmology.
But eh, pretty busy to do anything about that at the current moment.
Nothing is set in stone, so if you want to revise the tiering in another crt in the near future, you can if you wish. 😉
 
For this, where does High 1-C come from?
It was originally 1-A, but I am not 100% on where the discussion went from there. The thread got pretty messy. We decided that this lower set of tiers was in an acceptable ball park, and to conclude the matter for the sake of brevity since with 20+ tiers to debate, it was not practical to reach a thorough consensus about all of them. There will likely be future CRTs on many of the matters that can be examined in greater detail to determine the best tier.
 
For this, where does High 1-C come from? The 1-C it supposedly upscales from looks to be only baseline/7-D. That's just a higher level of 1-C/8-D
Possibly High 1-C comes from the countless planes of existence and Mahapralaya embedded in the Divine Presence dream. Even though there is no solid evidence that supports these planes of existence as higher infinities, the Heavens and the Collective Unconscious are beyond time-space and human comprehension. Furthermore, Indra's Fourth Heaven contains places that transcend places and days that transcend days.
 
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