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I thought we already agreed that Vertigo didn’t have a hierarchy making the void low 1-C.
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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3
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This isn’t true. The Overvoid contains and resolves all thoughts and contradictions within itself, which is backed by blatant statements from the author and supported by the comics.
Here’s just two pieces of evidence that support this.
- Morrison - “This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.” However, given that this totality must logically include and resolve all possible thoughts and concepts, it can also be interpreted as an actual encounter with God.”
- After the Thought Robot blasted Mandrakk off Nil into the Overvoid, Mandrakk was said to be engulfed by the “mind of Monitor” until even the idea of him became lost.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
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The root had statement of being beyond dimensional theories which dc doesn't.
LuciferX
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Firestorm argue for 1-A with conceptual transcendence thing. beyond all concepts stuff. doesn't it the same reason why Shinza isn't 1-A?
PrinceofPein
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shinza 1-A was downgraded due to mistranslations and misinformations.
but yes concept stuff is not enough for 1-A, you need to prove that it is transcendent in a way that even if there were infinite dimensions, you would stand above it regardless
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New gods can perceive the reality up to 28 dimensions compared to the humans according to the new gods storyline.
LuciferX
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You misunderstand what it that's means in the context of the story and setting. Grant tells us the story of the war between ink(Multiverse/Flaw) and paper(Overvoid). These are the realistic approach to duality in which grants also adds to perception and symmetry. The Overvoid is the nothing to the everything the Flaw is. The story being defined is what it wanted to contrast itself and named itself “Monitor-Mind the Overvoid” to differentiate itself.
All the duality that keeps on building up will dissolve into the Overvoid because form and meaning do not apply to the Overvoid not because it's coherently above all those logic. This is why contractions and thoughts cannot exist in the Monitor because they have meaning and meaning does not exist in the Overvoid, which does not pertain to it being above all concepts.
Alright? There are still quagmires to God. Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it because if he can't then he doesn't possess the ability to do anything and if he could he contradicts himself to be all-powerful. In the story, it is that all forms of duality are part of the battle between ink and paper simply existing in a form where thoughts do not exist or meaning does not have an actual meaning does not suggest it is above all concepts. The concepts die to it because it is Nothing that defines Everything and itself separates him from that everything.
Does not mean anything because ideas do not exist there. It's Nothing, so it's to be expected.
The Overvoid name himself and became something to differentiate the Everything that was the Flaw. The concept containing the Flaw was not what I was referring too.
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Are these 28 dimensions from Morrison's JLA: Rock of Ages? If yes, what proof do we have that these 28 dimensions are higher dimensions and not parallel dimensions?
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You certainly made that claim, but no, there was not an agreement.
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I didn’t misunderstand anything and I don’t know why you’re trying to spin this some other way. Grant Morrison never said that duality falls because form and meaning do not apply to it. Grant stated that duality falls because these concepts are resolved into a state of unity, where it’s all Monitor Mind, which implies oneness.
Morrison - “…those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity.”
Morrison - “This identification with a timeless supermind containing and resolving within itself all possible thoughts and contradictions, is what many people, unsurprisingly, mistake for an encounter with “God.”
Where is it stated “all forms of duality are part of the battle between ink and paper.” You’re literally just creating headcanon. It’s stated that beyond the flaw, everything is Monitor Mind and all duality is resolved into unity.
You didn’t address the scan. Mandrakk was being engulfed by the Overvoid until even his idea became lost and Superman began to forget about him.
Sure it gave itself a name, but nowhere in the scan does it state that it became a concept like you claimed.
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There were other people who agreed with Vertigo not having a hierarchy due to there being no evidence. And as far as I’m aware no new evidence was posted since I debunked the Silver City being low 1-C. So unless there’s new evidence, the Vertigo Void will stay low 1-C.
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No one is required to agree with your opinion, and feeling very strongly about your opinion doesn't constitute fact. So, no, the matter of Silver City transcending the multiverse is not settled simply because you keep claiming to have "debunked it" with nonsensical arguments like "they could see the galaxies therefore it's not qualitatively superior."
The Monitor Mind literally is part of a duality.
A flaw that is everything perfection is not. Defining its relationship to the flaw, perfection names itself "Monitor-Mind the Overvoid."
The Overvoid may have previously been in a state of oneness before the flaw was discovered, but even so, this discussion of transduality does not affect tiering.
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You definitely did misunderstand because that's not what Grant said. He talks about how contradiction resolves into unity as a reference to duality.
It's non-dual so it can't be resolved into unity by the concept because a concept would “contradict” that set “unity.” He talks about how concepts do not exist and duality is a constant of a concept split into two different opposing dichotomies.
Example: The “concept” of a faction would be split into two parts. If Good were one then Bad would be the other. They are part of that duality, oneness is implicit to it being whole. The Overvoid is where concepts and ideas don't exist because it is non-dual. There is no implication of oneness with non-dual.
Those concepts that he mentions earlier do not exist in the Monitor. “In which” is a reference to how everything else falls into the Nothing that it is which is where “resolve into unity” pertains too. If he were to say concepts are spun into unity then that's a counterintuitive point to “those concepts don't exist.” Grant is saying whatever else exists which is the focal point for “contradiction” resolve into unity. Unity is referencing the Nothing in which Everything is.
Yes in the story thoughts cannot reach the Unknowable/Overvoid. The Everything in which possibility, thoughts, and contradiction is referenced as the Flaw which is the symbolic opposite of the Overvoid immense Nothing to the infinitesimal Everything.
You read what you said right?
He mentions how duality has no meaning after the world of Monitors. They dissolve into it and the Overvoid is Nothing. So when you put it word for word you get this:
“Nothing is Monitor Mind and all duality is resolved into Nothing.”
As you see you can twist the wording a bit and it means the same thing. Which Grants has mentioned that ideas and concept do not define it because it is non-dual and that unity just means when something goes back to nothing whether be it concepts, ideas, possibilities, or thoughts.
Ideas can't exist in the Overvoid. I clearly addressed that as seen:
“Does not mean anything because ideas do not exist there. It's Nothing, so it's to be expected.”
Uh, defining a relationship is very implicit in the idea of two different concepts.
“A Flaw that is everything perfection is not.”
Everything and Nothing are concepts and at that opposing ones. The Flaw is defining a relationship to the Nothingness of the Overvoid. This is due to the fact that everything can be of a concept.
The concept of the Overvoid is nothing.
The concept of the Flaw is everything.
The concept of God is all-powerful.
The concept of the Devil is all-evil.
You get the point of saying “the concept of” would apply to anything. The two are of the opposite spectrum and this relationship is better highlighted in the next sentence:
“Defining it's relationship to the Flaw, perfection named itself the Monitor Mind the Over-void.”
Wouldn't make sense that it needed to do that because a relationship is referring to two different things. Given that it was scared of these contradictions, possibilities, stories, and ideas spreading that it had to bottle it.
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I agree but some people may have something to say about that. However, we need more staff to evaluate this discussion so that we can come to a decisive conclusion.
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It's really not practical to try and get staff to go through this many pages of mostly directionless arguing. IMO we should implement the updated tiering recommendations and apply the changes that we've made so far, move on, and settle the rest in specific CRTs. It's not like the changes we make are permanent, but we need to move on from this sooner or later.
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@Elizio33 tiering makes the most sense. I guess we should implement those suggestions and ignore the elephant in the room because a major consensus agrees with the tiering, or at least for the most part.
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No . Im referring to New gods storyline from john bryne Run
credits to a user named Alonik
About the nature of the 28 dimensions, they are only dimensions within the godsphere, the Source Wall that was beyond the Fourth World only had 6th dimensional structures only, which means they're below 6D.
- Your three-dimensional mind cannot being to encompass the six-dimensional space through which we travel now - New Gods Vol 4 #15, February, 1997 (John Byrne)
- I have seen much, in my travels through the twenty-eight known dimensions... - Jack Kirby's Fourth World Vol 1 #2 April, 1997 (John Byrne)
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I do not agree with this connection, personally. I think it's entirely possible that they are different types of dimensions and the phrase "my travels through" IMO are more indicative of a "realm" type dimension than a spatial one. However, John Byrne isn't a part of any of the cosmologies.
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Although I totally agree with your point, John Byrne's New Gods story was mentioned in Morrison's JLA: Rock of Age which mentions the 28 dimensions. But the old stuffs of Morrison's work aren't used here, except for Final Crisis and Multiversity and a few other stories.
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Fair enough
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To prevent any more delays, we'll be holding off on any 1-A discussions for now. That will be done in its own thread.
@Deagonx @Elizio33 @PrinceofPein
Can the other items in the OP be implemented?
@Deagonx @Elizio33 @PrinceofPein
Can the other items in the OP be implemented?
PrinceofPein
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If no one will do it, by the weekend friday and saturday, I can do it
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Yes, I believe they can. We just need to make some slight tweaks to the main blog post and then we can start implementing the changes. But there are a lot of profiles implicated in the project which will take some time.
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Oh yeah, if we are strict then we have to account for a feat as well as scaling through coherent logic.
If a being is outside in a realm higher than let's say a 2-A structure but can't destroy any structure relating to that tier then they don't get the tier? So we remove random characters just upscaling because they exist higher than the tier?
If a being is outside in a realm higher than let's say a 2-A structure but can't destroy any structure relating to that tier then they don't get the tier? So we remove random characters just upscaling because they exist higher than the tier?
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This is a very good comment because it raises the question of whether certain characters necessarily have to scale to their realms like the Nil Monitors, the Monitor Brothers or the New Gods. For example, the Monitor Brothers have not shown to be capable of destruction at the level of their realm, the Sixth Dimension, but are superior to Mr. Mxyzptlk and Batmite and Nil Monitors and Mandrakk are aspects of Mar Novu.
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I think there needs to be an overlay with Synder Cosmology that goes over each part. The Orrery is Low 2-C and the full destruction of it should be that same tier. I don't necessarily see Hypertime being 2-A+ given that its branching possibilities may or may not be infinite. We see the last few remaining possibilities dying due to the destruction of the Multiverse which contradicts it being infinite.
This is important due to the fact 5th and 6th Dimension is still restricted to the Multiverse. As the other Multiverses are within the Greater Omniverse. For this reason, given, I feel like the 5th Dimension should be 2-A because it encompasses the whole of the Multiverse and Mxy needed time to unimagine everything. It doesn't matter if the Source Wall broke because the logic should be as followed Low 1-C being a tier larger should have no problem. While the 6th is the very top pinnacle before reaching the Source Wall and so far we haven't seen beings there completely destroy or recreate the 2-A structure without some sort of drawback. Perpetua needs ample sources of Crisis Energy as well as her reformed Totality. Alpheus spent time crafting a replica of the Multiverse in 6D to replace the current broken one.
This is just my two cents but I feel like we need to look at that more. Each statement should have full constructive facts to back it up or it's just a baseless claim.
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Of course none of these matters are settled but that doesn’t magically make low 1-C Silver City arguable considering there’s no evidence for it. Also you keep focusing on the galaxies argument which was more about me claiming, Heaven doesn’t perceive the universe as infinitesimal or fiction. I digress, do you have new evidence the Silver City is low 1-C or not? If you do post it, and if you don’t then stop acting like you have evidence.
I’ll hold off on the 1-A stuff involving the Overvoid but this discussion has turned into more about whether the Overvoid is transdual.
They’re arguing the Overvoid isn’t transdual because it defined itself in relationship to the flaw/everything. However, the scan from the Multiversity guidebook also opens up talking about how the everything and nothing were the same thing. So this infinitesimal flaw/everything within the Overvoid is also nothing. Which makes sense as the Overvoid is supposed to be this non-dual pure consciousness or awareness like in Buddhism, which discusses the idea of an ultimate reality. However this is branching more into a philosophical topic, so I’ll end it here.
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It's already been posted. Your opinion that it doesn't suffice isn't shared by myself nor many other knowledgeable users. You can keep claiming to have debunked it if it suits you, but that's not everyone else's problem.
Transduality has various levels. No one is denying that it has transduality whatsoever.
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Fests of destruction or creation in level of the Orrery are 2-C.
It's possible that the term "infinite" to describe the exact number of universes in the DCU is a way of saying there are countless universes. At least 2-B might be fine, but we have to wait for other members' contributions and it might be better to create another CRT to talk about it. Characters being able to destroy or damage Hypertime could be 2-B as well.
Admittedly, it took time for Mr. Mxyzptlk to unimagine the multiverse and for the World Forger to create a replica of the multiverse, but it was implied by the latter, the World Forger, that when a cosmic crisis occurs, he and his brothers went to the Sixth Dimension to create a new configuration of the multiverse each time the current one breaks. They transfer the essence of all life to the new configuration. They've done it several times before.
Perpetua indeed needs all of the Crisis Energy to create or reconfigure a multiverse. She was able to create the Sixth Dimension, where she created the rest of her multiverse, weaving together this place with the seven energies that The Source entrusted to her. She could apparently control this place to some degree. Thus, she can scale to the Sixth Dimension.
But like I said, we have to wait for other members' comments or just make another thread for that.
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No there weren’t any new scans already posted. Unless you have proof of these new scans then don’t lie and act like they exist. Theres only old scans like the universe glittering and glistening like a child’s toy. However the problem is that you have yet to to explain how this proves the Silver City is a higher infinity to the universe. So I’m gonna ask, how does the universe glittering and glistening like a toy support it being a higher infinity?
Well I was discussing type 2. However if you guys aren’t denying the Overvoid is transdual, then there is no point in continuing on about this.
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Yup as they should be, however, it needs to be at that level. So anything less like taking time or using external sources to slightly damage it should scale lower.
Yes, Synder wording is confusing. In Justice League Annual he mentions “an infinite Universe expanding.” This is confusing because infinite doesn't expand per se, it's simply infinite. So I guess it's Scott's way of saying limitless as you said unless the context of the scan or the story supports infinity which it rarely doesn't.
The whole story/plot of that storyline was Alpheus was trying to replace the Multiverse with the current one after the events of Perpetua's revival after the Source Wall broke.
This is why he tasked Mxy to destroy each reality so he can spin another just like it and take those essence to the Multiverse in the 6D. He had to do this as a process because if time went missing from each Universe then it will alert the Judges and those Universe will have to go back to the Shores of Judgement.
That's what they were referring to as “configuration” after Alpheus showed himself while they were in the Multiverse future possible version in the 6th Dimension.
Of course, the Crisis Anvil was destroyed by Superman and he never technically finish implementing his plan. However, Alpheus take forms of pre-existing ideas he cannot shape from the raw ideas. This is why before the fight Perpetua mention they can only control what was given to them and the power to shape was only her power via the Totality. Just from that, I can't really grasp why Alpheus is Low 1-C other than scaling to the 6th Dimension.
I don't think she made the 6th Dimension. I think it was the space she was occupying to create the Multiverse. It became hers as well as the Totality of powers she hoarded from the Source.
The 6th Dimension is technically still within the Multiverse if we don't equate Creation to the Orrery.
Probably.
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To add to what I also said. Being a resident of the 6th Dimension shouldn't really scale you to the place itself.
Like Angels from the Silver City as residents yet they don't really scale to transcending Creation like how Heaven was to well Creation. It has to be something like Yahweh who made both the Multiverse and Heaven without issue.
I mean Lucifer and Michael didn't directly create the Multiverse but enacted the process of Creation with Yahweh's Creation. However, they did when Lucifer killed Michael, and their powers are not infinite but limitless enough that one can destroy any structure and create it to an infinite degree while the other can affect it. They make sense why they have Low 1-C but Perpetua and her sons not really.
Like Angels from the Silver City as residents yet they don't really scale to transcending Creation like how Heaven was to well Creation. It has to be something like Yahweh who made both the Multiverse and Heaven without issue.
I mean Lucifer and Michael didn't directly create the Multiverse but enacted the process of Creation with Yahweh's Creation. However, they did when Lucifer killed Michael, and their powers are not infinite but limitless enough that one can destroy any structure and create it to an infinite degree while the other can affect it. They make sense why they have Low 1-C but Perpetua and her sons not really.
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Good point but if some characters destroy or significantly damage Orrery multiversal structure like the Bleed, such a feat is 2-C.
Yeah agree.
Yes, I know, but I was saying that Alpheus hinted that he did the same thing multiple times whenever the multiverse was broken by cosmic crisesI don't think she made the 6th Dimension. I think it was the space she was occupying to create the Multiverse. It became hers as well as the Totality of powers she hoarded from the Source.
I don't entirely agree with this. Nothing contradicts or rules out the possibility that she created the Sixth Dimension, it is the highest plane of existence and final realm of the multiverse that she created after all. She said that she wove this place with the seven energies entrusted to her. The place she wove was not only the material multiverse but also its highest realm which is the Sixth Dimension.
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At least Perpetua with the totality of power should scale to the Sixth Dimension. Even though the power wasn't her power to begin with, it became hers when she kept the power for herself. That is why it is called the totality of her power.
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The reason why I mention the point she didn't create the 6th Dimesnion is due to the fact of what we learned from Justice League #22.
It was stated she made the Multiversal structure through the 3 domains of a triptych-like Multiverse.
All other parts were not created by her:
Sphere of Gods: Formed when the Multiverse first began as one of the possibilities that formed as Hecate was born.
Orrery: Left as an eternal task by Alphues to forge worlds in the World Forge. Later becomes the epicenter of the Dark Multiverse which isn't in the order of things.
Monitor Sphere: Came as the Universal structure after Crisis on Infinite Earth.
I could list more but I think she occupies that space which she refers to as the 6th Dimension. She didn't even create the Multiverse, she used the materials of the Multiverse forged by the Unseen Hand of the Source to fashion into a functioning Multiverse.
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The Totality is not a limitless supply like both Connective Force and Crisis Energy. It's just the power she possessed by hoarding whatever she could and being locked with it. It did not have the power to create or destroy the Multiverse and when she possessed only missing a fraction she could only destroy Universe one by one despite saying it was what she felt like when she was powerful back then.
I'm not saying she is not Low 1-C but there are some holes in her powers to scale her to such tiers.
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