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I think both the Vertigo Void and the Overvoid have a solid case for being a conceptually transcendent "canvas" for their respective cosmologies, given that the Vertigo Void also transcends living ideas like the Endless.
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The DC Comics Cosmology Revision Project - Part 3
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There's not much of a difference between the two despite what people claim.
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No it’s simply about fairness. Other people got removed from these threads for participating in them without staff approval. You did the same thing as them therefore you should be removed too.
This is projection. You’re literally one of the first people who brought up the Overvoids tier in relationship to beings of other writer cosmologies. I never even brought up its tier until you did, let alone compared it to other writer cosmologies. If anything, you have a problem with the Overvoids tier being superior to the other cosmologies, hence why you keep saying stuff like this.
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Fairness in terms of what? You decided to view it like this and obviously will get critiqued for it. If by these other “people” who violate something which I only add to the discussion. Quite sure the staff did not mind me and if it were such a problem, they would remove me by then. I see this as a half-baked attempt at just trying to levy anything you can so your view would get accepted. What have I done that should get me removed? Did I hurt your feelings? You should stay on topic because right now it doesn't seem like your doing well in this debate.
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Everyone, just chill. No more personal matters. Non-constructive post will be removed.
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Agreed. However, Xearsey is bringing up this point and keeps resorting to being temperamental for some reason. You can literally see he started this for whatever reason.
OT: I think the majority of us agreed that the Overvoid would be 1-C. There are many reasons to suggest it. If you need my reason I can detail it in a separate response.
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@Firestorm808
I’m not gonna comment much on where the cosmologies scale but I will respond to this, Final Fantasy has an exact statement for one of the villains in the series being stated to transcend all concepts in the Japanese text, however it’s not really elaborated on what these concepts include, so this wouldn’t grant 1-A, let alone Transduality of any kind if that’s the extent of the scans. This can be argued for the character to resist conceptual manipulation type 2 or 1 depending on what concepts exist in the verse but that’s it. Just wanted to answer this question
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i mean 'all concepts' literally mean all concepts including dimensions...literally everything
or would that be NLF
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But the "all concepts" is just an author statement, and would probably be NLF if applied that way.
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Yes
i found a way to get mansion of silence to 1-C but i wont talk about that right now
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DeMatteis yes, but we're still going over the void stuff from both vertigo and snyder
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Well, here's what we know so far about Snyder's approach to the Void:
- It's an all-consuming and impossible great void beyond the Source Wall.
- The void has an end according to Perpetua.
- Beings from the Greater Omniverse can travel through the Overvoid.
- Beings like Perpetua can mold and shape fragments of the Overvoid.
- It's through the void that beings like Perpetua start Multiverses using Connective Energy, born of the presence, of the Source.
- The Source, The Overvoid, The Presence are aspects or manifestations of the same whole.
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Thank you for your input. Regarding the Overvoid, we have a lot of in-comic support and context regarding the kinds of concepts involved.
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Are you referring to the Final Fantasy villain or the Overvoid? Overvoid has in-comic support and context.
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Overvoid. In terms of being "beyond all concepts" that's not really something in the comics
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It's more to do with it not being affected by concepts because it was “non-dual” yet stories spread like cancer to it. The problem is the nature of the being isn't exactly the same as what the beings are capable of.
Like how Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor Superman fight represented every duality but they aren't above it. The Overvoid is non-dual so concepts don't apply to it but even then there are some minor contradictions.
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Snyder's approach alone looks like Low 1-C with a mix of Grant likely 1-C.
1. The all-consuming part is just referring to the corrosive nature and could be metaphorical. At best this looks more like Mahapralaya. If it can destroy the Multiverse below then it would just be Low 1-C.
2. Although it's hard to actually pinpoint what the end of the Void looks like. In most if not every depiction the Void was always endless. I think it was referring to a different Void separate from Overvoid. If it did have an end it would probably end at the Great Darkness. That's when we get the indication that the Overvoid is not infinite but that's including Williamson which you guys have been vocal not to include.
3. If that's the case then they somewhat compare to it since the Overvoid is dependent on being in scale with the Source to scale higher not by itself at least from Synder Cosmology.
4. Perpetua I think more so took some pieces because I highly doubt anyone but the Source can create from nothing. From how you worded that you probably said something along that line.
5. If it happened in the Void then we could speculate it is the Greater Omniverse housing possible countless amount of Multiverse similar to the Mansions of Silence. Low 1-C by that logic.
6. Yeah but some people like to claim otherwise and say: Overvoid>Source>Presence because “less manifest.”
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No, at least most likely not. If it were we need clarification on dimensionality being infinite and the tiers leading up to it having qualitative superiority.
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Right, but even the "represented every duality" thing is just an author statement which itself is being interpreted very charitably.
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1. The all-consuming part was true and not metaphorical as it consumed planets, solar systems and possibly beyond.
2. You might be right on this one, but I think Snyder deliberately left an opening saying that the void has an end for other writers to use, which is what Joshua Williamson did in his later stories, which are direct continuation and addition to Snyder's work, with the Light and the Great Darkness. Also, the Hands operate in the Overvoid to create multiverses, so it makes sense that they exist at the end of this one.
3. Yes.
4. Yeah, I used the wrong choice of word for that one. Perpetua took pieces of the Overvoid to create her sons.
5. It takes place in the Overvoid. Beings like Perpetua create multiverses making up the Greater Omniverse which houses infinite multiverses. So your interpretation seems good to me.
6. Yes, some people tend to see it as a hierarchy, but it's not. I was one of those but it's more Monitor-Mind, Source, Presence embodying the same white void beyond the Source Wall. That's how I see it.
Snyder's approach to the Void is thus vast, impossible but finite and all-consuming, except for beings of the Greater Omniverse and certain gods who can travel through the Overvoid. It's likely also outside all space and time since it's beyond the infinite multiverses, being where they were created in the first place. 1-C should be fine.
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Since @Elizio33 has done one for Synder's interpretation of the Void. I will do one for Carey and Gaiman:
Location:
The Void is located outside the Multiverse as Lucifer wants the Letter of Passage and refers it to as “another side of the sky.”
The Void is outside the locality of the Space-Time continuum. To be there takes willpower beyond imagination and you would have to discipline your eyes to see things that aren't there.
The Void also is both beyond Time and has no Time. Lucifer crafted Time with whatever material was given and Yahweh did it for thousands of Creation before him. Yet the Void immensity sits above the calibers of Yahweh, Lucifer, and other Creators.
The Void that Lucifer has access to was described as “the ground floor.”
Size:
The Void is Infinite and Eternal.
Ideas drift into the Void which is the mindless consciousness of God.
One section of it is the endless, beginningless nothing.
To the resident of the Silver City hovering over Creation, the Void can look at the Universe glitters and glistens, like a child’s toy.
Even a portion of the Void contains the Heart of Eternity each heartbeat is a Creation being born and dying.
Even with all those Creations cannot fill up that portion of the Void.
Scaling:
Transcends any and all Creations: 2-A.
Trascends realms outside the Creation - Low 1-C.
Much bigger than Lucifer, Michael, the Silver City, the Mansions, and everything else put together would amount nothing to it - 1-C.
Location:
The Void is located outside the Multiverse as Lucifer wants the Letter of Passage and refers it to as “another side of the sky.”
The Void is outside the locality of the Space-Time continuum. To be there takes willpower beyond imagination and you would have to discipline your eyes to see things that aren't there.
The Void also is both beyond Time and has no Time. Lucifer crafted Time with whatever material was given and Yahweh did it for thousands of Creation before him. Yet the Void immensity sits above the calibers of Yahweh, Lucifer, and other Creators.
The Void that Lucifer has access to was described as “the ground floor.”
Size:
The Void is Infinite and Eternal.
Ideas drift into the Void which is the mindless consciousness of God.
One section of it is the endless, beginningless nothing.
To the resident of the Silver City hovering over Creation, the Void can look at the Universe glitters and glistens, like a child’s toy.
Even a portion of the Void contains the Heart of Eternity each heartbeat is a Creation being born and dying.
Even with all those Creations cannot fill up that portion of the Void.
Scaling:
Transcends any and all Creations: 2-A.
Trascends realms outside the Creation - Low 1-C.
Much bigger than Lucifer, Michael, the Silver City, the Mansions, and everything else put together would amount nothing to it - 1-C.
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Also, Lucifer's Creation is also Low 1-C it's an exact mirror of Yahweh’s Creation. The only difference is Yahweh has after lives while Lucifer has dimensions that goes down, up, or are unfishined unfiltered abominations. Some are not even abstract and are left disregarded and Elaine had to travel the distance to see these realms(dimensions) beyond the worlds(Universes). Since she traveled an infinite distance from her respected position this highlights Lucifer's Creation's size.
Remember Yahweh's Creations all repeat in the same manner and die as well. That's what he means by “Infinity answer Infinity” and “pattern persists and repeats.” If this is the case the Mansions should be Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. The Creations are not the only thing that fills it up and can contain more than infinite 2-A structures.
Remember Yahweh's Creations all repeat in the same manner and die as well. That's what he means by “Infinity answer Infinity” and “pattern persists and repeats.” If this is the case the Mansions should be Low 1-C, possibly 1-C. The Creations are not the only thing that fills it up and can contain more than infinite 2-A structures.
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Also 1-C should be fine since it's beyond the Source Wall and the Sixth Dimension. Snyder said that the Sixth Dimension isn't above the Source Wall. And the Overvoid transcends the infinite Multiverses.
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I think transcending and containing infinite Multiverses are two different things.
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Indeed but it's still beyond the Source Wall and the Sixth Dimension for the reasons above
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None of these Cosmology is at 1-A yet and most likely won't be reaching it.
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Possibly but the references to infinite dimensions are a bit shaky.
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What infinite dimensions?
I am talking about how heaven is low 1-C and then you have infinite hierarchy of those dream-like realms beyond that, infinite void of nothingness and the divine creator/presence which is described as infinite void beyond all other voids.
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Heaven Low 1-C, an infinite hierarchy suggests Low 1-C into the final layers of Low 1-C.
Then you have the realm of concepts where all forms take shape that's beyond Heaven, which would be 1-C.
Beyond that of Mahapralaya which is the infinite ocean of nothing which would still be higher into 1-C, then the Divine Presence which transcends all of them being likely High 1-C.
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How is this only low 1-C?
Heaven is low 1-C for seeing the whole multiverse as a dream and then you have infinite hierarchy of those dream realms above Heaven, that's literally High 1-B.
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To get to 1-C it has to be infinite repetition and thus that “infinite” is that one reputation. Then you need to have qualitative superiority to confirm 1-C. It may have an infinite hierarchy but is it R>F to solidify 1-C?
High 1-B is an infinite dimension with the support of qualitative superiority. Higher and Lower do not count, they must be transcendent of each other.
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The higher realm sees the lower realm as a dream in comparison.
And no, you don't need infinite spatial dimensions to be High 1-B.
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From what I've seen it's not higher dreams seeing lower as insignificant. It's just a ladder of higher and lower. It would still need some type of suggestion of superiority because the entire structure is the dream. The deeper the dream the more real and close you are to the Oversoul that connects us all.
More meaningful, deeper, and closer do not really account for much.
High 1-B means a countable infinite number that is above our own. Yes.
Endless hierarchy. Yes
Each one superior to the last? Not really.
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I'm not knowledgeable about the higher tiers of DC, but from what you're saying, if each layer is more "real" and "closer" then the previous, that certainly sounds like superiority.
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It's not nearly conclusive enough to consider each layer a higher infinity than the last.
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