Team Fortress 2 Revisions Continued

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I don't use my status as an argument for debating fictional characters, I do however inform people note two things that showcasing barbaric attitude towards is not allowed here, and that doing it towards staff is even worse. And I'm mostly offended when people insult other people, but that's off topic. I use the Discussion Rules as my argument, not the status. Though the rules do even state that Discussion Mod and/or Admin approval is needed.

Actually, even a 31 kg person jumping off a one meter platform is a baseline Street level durability calculation and that doesn't phase anyone. And a person larger than that jumping of 3 meters would obviously be above that. Energy alone doesn't equate to damage, there's also precision. Just because someone can survive a 100 kilojoule body slam or sky diving feat doesn't mean they can survive a 100 kilojoule punch to the face. The size of two fighters is also an important indicator since if Character A was twice character B's size, character A is only technically doing half the amount of damage he normally would give. That's how fodder insects survive car crashes and grenades IRL.

 

[ByAsura]

The Scout has this feat in Meet the Medic.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Byasura That feat was calced at 9-B

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already brought that feat up, multiple times. And calculated.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok.

 

[FanofRPGs]

How reliable is quicksell unusable flipping? I have 70 bucks on my steam account and would I be better off just putting money into the game?

 

[The_Smashor]

I don't know. This is talking about how strong the characters are, not the economy of the game.

 

[Schwxnz]

ÔǼ"Giant robots, with the exception of the Giant Medic, use different models with slightly skewed proportions (most notably a smaller head and larger torso) and more detail to make up for their larger size. The models themselves are the same size as the normal robots' but are scaled up 1.75X in-game."-- I think the vaporizing weaponry from the mercs is capable of vaporizing such robots, Heavy is 1.93 meters tall, which would mean that Giant-Heavy-Robots are ~3,37 meters tall- could someone calc how much energy would be required to vaporize such robots? This would scale to certain weaponry from the mercs, the Yeti and Saxton Hale.

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

ÔǼ"Giant robots, with the exception of the Giant Medic, use different models with slightly skewed proportions (most notably a smaller head and larger torso) and more detail to make up for their larger size. The models themselves are the same size as the normal robots' but are scaled up 1.75X in-game."-- I think the vaporizing weaponry from the mercs is capable of vaporizing such robots, Heavy is 1.93 meters tall, which would mean that Giant-Heavy-Robots are ~3,37 meters tall- could someone calc how much energy would be required to vaporize such robots? This would scale to certain weaponry from the mercs, the Yeti and Saxton Hale.

Interesting stuff that's why brought this part before.

 

[Absaddie]

Hello new thread

And wasn't the new Scout calc entirely based on him not being hit directly even though he very blatantly did take it?

I remember I said something about lasers and how they can't be accepted if something is comparable to it or whatever? Gunfire in Sonic Adventure 2 moves comparable to the lasers in the same game from enemies that are literally referred to as "Laser Hunter", "Laser Hornet" and whatnot.

What was the reason for not accepting the lasers and the light speed statement for the Scout cosmetic again?

 

[Anomalous_N_I_W_D_E]

What was the reason for not accepting the lasers and the light speed statement for the Scout cosmetic again?

I think it had to do with something of it being a hyperboyle and others not carrying similiar features of the scout cosmetic and thus deemed it an outlier.

 

[Genericstickman]

wait isn't the spycicle able to freeze people with backstabs and classes are able to tank hits from it when not in backstab range

 

[Absaddie]

wait isn't the spycicle able to freeze people with backstabs and classes are able to tank hits from it when not in backstab range

Does it even freeze you if you aren't killed by a backstab?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The scene of scout taking the rockets is kind of censored and we don't actually see where the rockets hit. And Scout bouncing getting bounced off the explosion implies his body didn't actually absorb the full impact. He would have still be laying in the epic center of the explosion and seen in the bottom of the crater if he actually took the full impact.

And yeah, we don't assume lasers are light speed unless there's more detailed descriptions of them.

 

[Absaddie]

I believe I did actually say why they would be. There was the electromagnetic particle gun (electro magnetic particles going light speed), multiple called a "wave projector" which would be light speed, a "particle smasher" which would be relativistic at least, among other things. The Scout cosmetic saying you'd have to slow down so the light speed signals can catch up to you doesn't have to be specifically FTL, could still be relativistic as even if something is faster than you it can take a little while for things to catch up, at least implying he's moving close to that speed.

What else?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Particle Beam" is just pretty common techno babble. Plus, just because the particles forming the the laser are light speed doesn't mean the final attack is light speed. There are literally plenty of examples of this and it's also the reason lightning bolts aren't light speed even though the particles forming the bolts are light speed. Scout is infamous for hyperboles. It's also not stated to be a photon beam, it's not continuous like a laser pointer, and has it been shown to bounce of mirrors? Plus, it would be a massive outlier compared to what's consistently shown in Team Fotress.

 

[Absaddie]

Scout isn't the one who said it, it's the description which would work the same way a description for a weapon would in anything else.

Also I didn't say a particle beam, I said a particle smasher which would be referring to the same thing as a particle accelerator which was often referred to as an atom smasher in the 20th century which coincidentally, is where TF2 takes place. It's not technobabble when it's referring to real concepts.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It's still behaves more like Machine generated electricity which is only Supersonic. The Light speed, Relativistic, ect is not remotely combat applicable.

 

[Absaddie]

It doesn't act like generated electricity at all actually. Cow Mangler only produces what looks like electricity after it lands.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The scene of scout taking the rockets is kind of censored and we don't actually see where the rockets hit. And Scout bouncing getting bounced off the explosion implies his body didn't actually absorb the full impact. He would have still be laying in the epic center of the explosion and seen in the bottom of the crater if he actually took the full impact.

I'm sorry, but this just seems like headcanon to me. Just because someone bounces away from an impact, doesn't mean they didn't take the full damage of the impact. It's takes an even larger assumption to assume that getting hit by the rockets would leave a crater that Scout would be inside of.

I've read this thread and all I see are legitamate 9-A feats being disregarded because we want them to be 9-B, not because they are.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Sir We see scout being sent flying in the same manner by a rocket earlier in the video, on top of the fact that not only did the explosion nearly kill him, but in-canon a direct hit from a rocket oneshots the mercs

 

[Genericstickman]

wait isn't the spycicle able to freeze people with backstabs and classes are able to tank hits from it when not in backstab range

 

[Unoriginal_Memes]

That can probably be mounted up to game mechanics. If Scout was able to survive that much damage within the game, he would basically be able to tank almost every weapon used against him.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Backstabs ignore durability to an extent, or at least they give Spy wildly higher AP if we're using game mechanics.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That can probably be mounted up to game mechanics. If Scout was able to survive that much damage within the game, he would basically be able to tank almost every weapon used against him.

Scout being oneshot by rockets isnt from in-game it comes from an animation

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Sir We see scout being sent flying in the same manner by a rocket earlier in the video, on top of the fact that not only did the explosion nearly kill him, but in-canon a direct hit from a rocket oneshots the mercs

If you watch carefully, every time Soldier gibs an enemy, they're either unaware, or it was a crit rocket. You can even hear the sound of the crit happening when he instagibs opponents.

Regular rockets don't kill Scouts instantly. Crits do.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Back stabs don't ignore durability; this isn't Dragon Ball where durability comes from Ki or Star Wars where durability comes from force amplification. Also, I fixed up the calculatio even if it was point blank, it would only be Wall level+ at best and not 9-A. The fact that Scout was practically incapacitated by the hit also suggests he shouldn't fully scale.

And as mentioned above, Soldier rockets and even weapons weaker than rockets have consistently shown to severly injure and even kill other mercs. There's also the fact that a rifle also made a Spy's head explode. Shattering the human skull is a Wall level feat at minimum and it does suggest that the rifles are indeed stronger than regular rifles. But they still kind of overkill people regardless. If a weapon doesn't just kill, but obliterates you; that implies the characters shouldn't be scaled to it.

 

[Moritzva]

Wait, what happened to the vaporization of a human Cow Mangler, again?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As mentioned on another calc group discussion thread, attack that are just thermal energy shouldn't always scale to durability and would more so be heat resistance rather than durability. Plus, it's only 300 Megajoules if it vaporizes in one shot, plus, if they do get vaporized, that counts as overkill and would not be scaled by nature. People could still be 9-A with Cow Mangler, but no one is physically 9-A.

For multiple hits, it could be interpreted as each shot heats their body an X number of degrees. Also, dead bodies are often colder than living bodies; so realistically dead bodies are actually harder to vaporize. Though, dead bodies might also be less dense, but that's a different topic.

 

[Moritzva]

It doesn't matter if a vaporization shot vaporizes a dead guy or a living guy, though, if they have the same body mass. Though I imagine there is some abstraction based on game mechanics, though.

But fair enough, given the sheer number of 9-B feats, heat resistance seems more likely.

 

[Schwxnz]

The fact that Scout was practically incapacitated by the hit also suggests he shouldn't fully scale.

Scout was already heavily wounded before he took the rockets.

Regardless, do the things that I've proposed here make sense? Also could someone calc this?

 

[Moritzva]

Could we do "Possibly 9-A with the Cow Mangler"? Sounds reasonable, given that it can vaporize dead bodies/nigh-dead people anyways.

 

[TheLegendaryHerker]

I believe I did actually say why they would be. There was the electromagnetic particle gun (electro magnetic particles going light speed), multiple called a "wave projector" which would be light speed, a "particle smasher" which would be relativistic at least, among other things. The Scout cosmetic saying you'd have to slow down so the light speed signals can catch up to you doesn't have to be specifically FTL, could still be relativistic as even if something is faster than you it can take a little while for things to catch up, at least implying he's moving close to that speed.
What else?

Many cosmetics descriptions are simply jokes created by the developers and fans. Well, for a game where you can stomp everyone with a fish seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bump

So what else needs to be discussed here?

 

[Schwxnz]

I've proposed a possible speed upgrade and solid intelligence ratings for the characters here.

Also, just wondering, is this calc usable for Saxton's Yeti feat from the comics?

 

[CrackerVolley]

Full-out summary of what has been proposed so far would be nice.

 

[Schwxnz]

Are you talking about my comment? If so:

Speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geNMz0J9TEQ&t Right from 0:16, you can see that the bullets were actually going to hit Scout in the legs, but he moves to the sides- while he keeps running forwards and moves his legs behind (as in, moving them a lot higher than one would when normally running) to avoid the bullets.

Intelligence:

Scout: Above Average via his current description

Soldier: Below Average via... being Soldier.

Pyro: Above Average via the feat that's already listed in his description

Demoman: At least Above Average, as it's heavily implied that he makes his own explosives. (~0:25- 0:32)

Heavy: Above Average, possibly higher via his current description

Engineer: Extraordinary Genius via having eleven hard science PhDs, and being implied to be comparable to his grandfather, who bui lt a life-extender-machine for Blutarch and Redmond Mann and designed the Sentry guns, as well as likely the dispensers and the teleporters. He is also at least as smart as Medic.

Medic: Extraordinary Genius via his current description

Sniper: Either Average or Above Average

Spy: Gifted via being able to impersonate someone he didn't meet before nearly flawless- the TFC Sniper even admitted, that his disguise would have fooled him if the TFC Engineer hadn't plucked out his eyes and replaced them with some… anti-spy-eyes?

Saxton: Average - Above Average via being a capable buisness man and having invented things such as the high Five, as well as multiple martial arts- (jarate, drunken headbutting, drunken boxing, drunken cry-fighting, drunken apology-making and shaolin drunken knife wrestling)

Also; here's a possible range upgrade for Sniper

If you're referring to AP and such, the mercs are going to be downgraded to 9-B+/9-B as Scout's rocket tanking feat has been recalced here

 

[CrackerVolley]

And what are the current arguments against the recalc?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

9-B is the recalc

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Bullet immunity calculation is no longer valid and is heavily inflated; the new improved version is like 9-A at best now; we don't give out 8-B ratings for bullet immunity. In fact, even Wall level characters can be immune to bullets, you just need to be a like a robot or something since there are different categories for durability.

Also, Scout doesn't fully scale to the full calc because it's kind of outlierish, and he was incapacitated by a single rocket before the three rockets dog piled. But Wall level is good for the Mercenaries.