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Versus Saxton Hale Ability Additions (Sylvia the Seal solos your verse)

I should still say that I dont think we should use VSH as canon, since it does just... break canon. We have a very good idea of what happened since Gray Mann(technically Olivia) took Mann Co. And all 9 mercs fighting Saxton literally fits nowhere since...

  • Engineer was hiding out with The Administrator at the time
  • Medic was with the TFC team
  • Sniper was hiding out in Australia and then went to New Zealand
  • Heavy was with his family a good part of the time
  • Demoman was with his mother in her house
  • Pyro was running a company
So there's only 3/9 mercs unaccounted for in the general wide sense when Gray Mann took over... and those three are Solider, Spy, and Scout, and they're all but the main characters so we know a LOT of what they were doing at the time.

Hale's traveling also doesn't fit in with VSH at all, since we also know a good fair bit about what he was doing and he couldn't have stopped by to take down the mercs at any points even if all nine weren't accounted for.

And why am I putting so much importance on the main comic series? Because we see the beginning... and end of Gray Mann's takeover of Mann Co. We get the details of what was going down and we see Gray Mann and get gutted by TFC Heavy
 
DaReaperMan said:
I should still say that I dont think we should use VSH as canon, since it does just... break canon. We have a very good idea of what happened since Gray Mann(technically Olivia) took Mann Co. And all 9 mercs fighting Saxton literally fits nowhere since...

  • Engineer was hiding out with The Administrator at the time
  • Medic was with the TFC team
  • Sniper was hiding out in Australia and then went to New Zealand
  • Heavy was with his family a good part of the time
  • Demoman was with his mother in her house
  • Pyro was running a company
So there's only 3/9 mercs unaccounted for in the general wide sense when Gray Mann took over... and those three are Solider, Spy, and Scout, and they're all but the main characters so we know a LOT of what they were doing at the time.

Hale's traveling also doesn't fit in with VSH at all, since we also know a good fair bit about what he was doing and he couldn't have stopped by to take down the mercs at any points even if all nine weren't accounted for.

And why am I putting so much importance on the main comic series? Because we see the beginning... and end of Gray Mann's takeover of Mann Co. We get the details of what was going down and we see Gray Mann and get gutted by TFC Heavy
Click to expand...
I was proposing a new key for the mercs, since they have exclusive abilities to this gamemode and the canon contradictions you mentioned

Also entirely different scaling
 
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The creator of VSH is working on a halloween version where you fight the HHH instead, so we can get some cool 8-C Horsemann scaling if we can get Hale up there (which he should since we have the Yeti statement + this entire gamemode to support it)
 
damn it i missed this thread, yeah i agree with it, and if the canon is a issue, perhaps it could be a new key for his profile

jumping high isn't acrobatics from what i can tell, it would be part of superhuman physical characteristics i think, since we even do AP calcs for this stuff, though double jumping is pseudo-flight

saxton hale also dies from any amount of HP to RPS, so this might really be death manipulation, the wiki says that it causes the target to explode while linking to gibs so it probably uses the explode command too instead of doing damage

him standing in the air with the sweeping charge might be more like levitation, also from what i recall he gets a defense bonus, during this attack so more statistics amplification

he should probably get acrobatics via self-momentum thanks to sweeping charge and mighty slam
 
DaReaperMan said:
I should still say that I dont think we should use VSH as canon, since it does just... break canon. We have a very good idea of what happened since Gray Mann(technically Olivia) took Mann Co. And all 9 mercs fighting Saxton literally fits nowhere since...

  • Engineer was hiding out with The Administrator at the time
  • Medic was with the TFC team
  • Sniper was hiding out in Australia and then went to New Zealand
  • Heavy was with his family a good part of the time
  • Demoman was with his mother in her house
  • Pyro was running a company
So there's only 3/9 mercs unaccounted for in the general wide sense when Gray Mann took over... and those three are Solider, Spy, and Scout, and they're all but the main characters so we know a LOT of what they were doing at the time.

Hale's traveling also doesn't fit in with VSH at all, since we also know a good fair bit about what he was doing and he couldn't have stopped by to take down the mercs at any points even if all nine weren't accounted for.

And why am I putting so much importance on the main comic series? Because we see the beginning... and end of Gray Mann's takeover of Mann Co. We get the details of what was going down and we see Gray Mann and get gutted by TFC Heavy
Click to expand...

Takeover of Mann Co.​

Main article: Ring of Fired
After the Mercenaries successfully defend Mann Co. against the robot attacks, wary of another intractable stalemate, Gray decides to change his approach. He goes directly to Saxton Hale at Mann Co.'s headquarters, and declares that the war is over — he gives up. But then he says he is there for the Mann Co. Challenge, offering a fight with Hale for the ownership of the company, a policy Hale made himself. After Hale grabs and punches Gray with ease, Gray declares that he is not the one who will be fighting, but instead Gray's daughter named Olivia, an underage girl, will fight Hale. Hale refuses to fight her, ultimately granting Mann Co. ownership to Gray who later sends the mercenaries after him. However Hale wouldn't go out without a fight and manages to escape all the while causing severe damage to what was once his proprety. After this, Gray proceeds to fire the mercenaries for theirs failure while the Administrator orders Miss Pauling, her assistant, to hide. The mercenaries scatter, but Scout and Spy are later arrested before they managed to escape Teufort.

From the TF2 Storyline page on the official wiki.

Also, the mercenaries only go their separate ways once they were fired, which makes sense, since Gray Mann’s takeover was abrupt, and happened literally minutes after the end of the Robot War.
 
TheGatememer said:

Takeover of Mann Co.​

Main article: Ring of Fired
After the Mercenaries successfully defend Mann Co. against the robot attacks, wary of another intractable stalemate, Gray decides to change his approach. He goes directly to Saxton Hale at Mann Co.'s headquarters, and declares that the war is over — he gives up. But then he says he is there for the Mann Co. Challenge, offering a fight with Hale for the ownership of the company, a policy Hale made himself. After Hale grabs and punches Gray with ease, Gray declares that he is not the one who will be fighting, but instead Gray's daughter named Olivia, an underage girl, will fight Hale. Hale refuses to fight her, ultimately granting Mann Co. ownership to Gray who later sends the mercenaries after him. However Hale wouldn't go out without a fight and manages to escape all the while causing severe damage to what was once his proprety. After this, Gray proceeds to fire the mercenaries for theirs failure while the Administrator orders Miss Pauling, her assistant, to hide. The mercenaries scatter, but Scout and Spy are later arrested before they managed to escape Teufort.

From the TF2 Storyline page on the official wiki.

Also, the mercenaries only go their separate ways once they were fired, which makes sense, since Gray Mann’s takeover was abrupt, and happened literally minutes after the end of the Robot War.
Click to expand...
that was added after the summer update dropped, before that it simply said that gray fired the mercs after taking over, so i'm not sure we can use that as evidence of it being canon
 
Thelastmlg said:
that was added after the summer update dropped, before that it simply said that gray fired the mercs after taking over, so i'm not sure we can use that as evidence of it being canon
Click to expand...
Either way, it's an official gamemode, so I don't see why it wouldn't be canon. It doesn't contradict anything in canon
 
TheGatememer said:
Either way, it's an official gamemode, so I don't see why it wouldn't be canon. It doesn't contradict anything in canon
Click to expand...
If it's on official Valve servers it's canon, is a pretty good policy even if it leads to the Mercs travelling to the goddamn moon because Valve thought the moons surface was snow
 
Thelastmlg said:
that was added after the summer update dropped, before that it simply said that gray fired the mercs after taking over, so i'm not sure we can use that as evidence of it being canon
Click to expand...
it was also removed from the page

pretty sure its a fake scan lmao
 
CBslayeR said:
it contradicts the entire comic series
Click to expand...
Two things.

1. The games and shorts are the primary material that takes priority over the comics

2. This fits pretty well with the comics. The sequence of events is simple. Saxton loses his position as CEO of Mann Co., Grey Mann commands the Mercs to get Saxton off of his property, the Mercs succeed in getting Saxton out, events continue.

The fact they gave it a story the original fanmode didn't have proves it's intended to be canon.
 
MinecraftHater2011 said:
Someone just recently uploaded a video showcasing all of Sax's abilities, including some obscure ones that might be notable enough to be on the profile, like a somewhat Passive Damage Reduction and a slight Resistance to Status Effect Inducement (the clip about Sax's Resistance to SEI doesn't mention it, but Sax also takes less slowdown from the Natascha, which you can see here on the TF2 wiki's page for VSH).
Click to expand...
I don’t see a resistance to status effect there, and the natascha deals the same amount of slowdown to hale, it simply has it’s slowdown be chance based instead of certain
 
Flashlight237 said:
I think you kinda undersold him; the TF2 General Discussion thread had more Saxton Hale abilities, plus his tiering could be looked at, I mean dude can one-shot many mercs. Pyro's durability is 0.0658 tons as of the Robot Wars and Saxton can one-shot that.
Click to expand...
Why would that matter? 8-C starts at 0.25 tons, and there's no way in hell you'd get upscaling to a tier off of a ~4x gap.

If that sort of thing has happened in other verses, please let me know.
 
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Agnaa said:
Why would that matter? 8-C starts at 0.25 tons, and there's no way in hell you'd get upscaling to a tier off of a ~4x gap.

If that sort of thing has happened in other verses, please let me know.
Click to expand...
You do realize that we have a VS-debating exclusive gap that, whether it gets set to 5x or gets kept at 7.5x, would put Saxton at 8-C anyhow, right?
 
Flashlight237 said:
You do realize that we have a VS-debating exclusive gap that, whether it gets set to 5x or gets kept at 7.5x, would put Saxton at 8-C anyhow, right?
Click to expand...
To elaborate on what Reaper said, we explicitly don't use that for determining how much stronger a character is by a feat of one-shotting. Whether on profiles, or in matches. We only use it for deciding when two values reached by a calculation or multiplier would result in a one-shot.
 
Agnaa said:
To elaborate on what Reaper said, we explicitly don't use that for determining how much stronger a character is by a feat of one-shotting. Whether on profiles, or in matches. We only use it for deciding when two values reached by a calculation or multiplier would result in a one-shot.
Click to expand...
Huh? Thought we did use it in versus Matches
 
We use it in versus matches when comparing values derived from other means. But we can't use it to, like, treat a 100 ton character with a scaling chain of 10 one-shots as being 5.63e10 tons.

In a thread, they'd just be treated as "Unquantifiably, but noticeably, above 100 tons".
 
Agnaa said:
We use it in versus matches when comparing values derived from other means. But we can't use it to, like, treat a 100 ton character with a scaling chain of 10 one-shots as being 5.63e10 tons.

In a thread, they'd just be treated as "Unquantifiably, but noticeably, above 100 tons".
Click to expand...
Okay THATS what you mean lol
 
New update introduced some extra mechanics for the mercs that'll result in more additions to the profiles. Haven't gotten the chance to read it in full, but looks like Medic's Vaccinator can reduce the damage to some of Hale's abilities.
 
Shmooply said:
New update introduced some extra mechanics for the mercs that'll result in more additions to the profiles. Haven't gotten the chance to read it in full, but looks like Medic's Vaccinator can reduce the damage to some of Hale's abilities.
Click to expand...
Think it just applies to the explosion resistance from Saxton Punch
 
Shmooply said:
New update introduced some extra mechanics for the mercs that'll result in more additions to the profiles. Haven't gotten the chance to read it in full, but looks like Medic's Vaccinator can reduce the damage to some of Hale's abilities.
Click to expand...
Naw all of them just seem like fixes. Things which, from the ways the weapons work in other modes, you'd expect to work in vsh.
 
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