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This CRT will be focused on a particular phrase I've heard used throughout the Mario franchise and I just can't write it off as coincidence. This might impact the profiles somewhat in many ways but what I'm gonna be talking about is the fact that there's a general phrase/term thrown around a lot in relation to the amps or power certain objects or people hold, and it's consistent throughout many parts of the franchise.

I'm talking about "The Power of the Stars"



Super Mario 64



As far as I'm aware, this is the first time "power of the stars" is mentioned. Koopa the Quick says it when pontificating if Mario's got faster because of the power of the stars, and Bowser later on says it when claiming it has failed him. This is proof Mario and Bowser both had this "power of the stars"

In this game it's pretty clear the Power Stars are what granted this. Don't think that requires explanation.



Super Mario Galaxy 2






Giant Bowser will state that he has acquired the "power of the stars" in his introduction before he takes Peach and flies away.






Lumas you meet to pursue him will flat-out state that the Young Master Luma can grant Mario the "power of the stars" and then go on to say they can help a little too before transforming into the launch stars that send you into space.



This means that certain Lumas can grant "the power of the stars" just like Power Stars and Grand Stars can, showing it's not just the Power Stars that grant this power. Yes, Lumas can become Power Stars, but one would think an ability that comes from your evolution wouldn't be an ability you also share in base. Young Master Luma never becomes anything in the sequel either and he's notably seen as even younger than the rest. This Luma is notably treated differently to the one in Galaxy 1 so this does not support that Luma having this "power of the stars".



Previously, it was argued that the "power of the stars" mentioned here meant only spaceflight. While this is true contextually for Galaxy 1 (minus the fact Rosalina never explicitly said Luma or Power Stars granted the "power of the stars"), it's clearly evident that he's not referring to the ability to traverse space here, especially since the regular Lumas don't talk about having the "power of the stars" and will enable space travel themselves as well as the fact Bowser in this game clearly had an amp from the Grand Stars as well as the fact we know he absorbed the Comet Observatory's energy which was powered by 7 Grand Stars and 114 Power Stars. Also, consistently within the franchise "power of the stars" seems to refer to actual physical/magical power, which you'll see with my next examples



TTYD Crystal Star Lore Translations



Okay, so basically, there's an NPC in Rogueport that will tell you little short excerpts of the Crystal Star's and Shadow Queen's lore.



For one of the stories, his dialogue in Japanese can be seen here


1.) "In order for the demons to further increase their strength..."



2.) "...they collected the power of the stars that fell from the heavens and turned them into jewelry, creating the Star Stones."



3.) "The demons spread these Star Stones all across the world, and with their power, they ruled the world."


I excluded the fourth because it's basically irrelevant.



Notice any particular wording there? Yep. Power of the stars. Stars can grant power, they use that power to create the Star Stones, or Crystal Stars for English-speakers, which would thereby imply these Star Stones were imbued with this collected power of the stars.



But there's even more.



In the Palace of Shadow, there exists a place where you can read multiple text on the walls that will help you solve the puzzles related to the 8 different rooms. Included on these plaques, however, are random excerpts that actually are part of a whole statement which even further talks about the relation between the demons and the Stars.


Here are the English localizations of all the lines. 


Each is an independent line in riddles, and they're a bit out of order. Here they are correctly:



天より おつる 星のかがやき



天のことわりをしり



星の ことわりを しり



ワザを もって 石に やどす



星のチカラが やどりし



石を 7つ すべてを つくりしは



おお いだいなる われらが



ヤミと カゲの あるじよ



"The shine of the stars falling from the heavens



We know the truth of the heavens



know the truth of the stars



and use our power to bind it in stones



Those who made the 7



stones housing the power of the stars



are we, the great ones



the masters of darkness and shadows"




Another direct example of "power of the stars" being mentioned, this time saying that yes, these stones WERE imbued with the power of the stars.



Mario Party






In DS there's a pretty direct statement before fighting a boss that your character uses the "power of the Stars" to enable them to fight the gargantuan threat. These Stars are notably not called Power Stars at all across the entirety of the Mario Party series. For all intents and purposes, these are treated as their own thing. Many Star items exists in the Marioverse and quite a few loom similar, all provide glows, and almost all provide amps, so functionally they are all similar and I wouldn't use that as a justification for these being Power Stars.





In Mario Party 6 Mario brings up using the "power of the Stars" to try and quell the feud between Twila and Brighton. Might also be implying the Stars have purification. Stars are consistently seen as heavenly so it'd make sense.


Drawing Conclusions


It seems to me that "The Power of the Stars" is a universal amp granted by Stars, and it has specifcally only been said when characters have used itrms related to stars which do indeed amp them. That seems consistent enough to warrant a rating.

What would this rating be? Given the fact the power of the stars can counter each other, as proven in 64 and Galaxy, it would scale up from the Grand Star's and Power Star's feats within those games, whatever those may be. Currently the highest feat is a Grand Star being able to create a galaxy and destroy one.

We could likely go higher though. Many will bring up that it was not only the Grand Star but the Luma's doings that helped caused the reset seen at the end of Galaxy. However, going by Galaxy 2's example, the Lumas strongly imply they are not as helpful as Young Master Luma is with the power of the stars, showing a blatant hierarchy in power between Lumas. This means that one with the power of the stars is > a regular Luma, whom have the ability to become planets and galaxies and even Power Stars themselves. The ending of Galaxy had multiple Lumas cause an at least 3-B event, as it reached members of other galaxies such as Gearmos, Bees, and even Bowser and Jr. who were in a galaxy that required the most Star Power to reach, and Star Power as was said by Rosalina and her Luma Companion is what determines how far you can travel, and the numbers of Stars required to get to the galaxies represents distance. We know they were effected because of the fact they end up on Mario's planet in the ending, which should be galaxies away from where they were orginally.

We know that Grand Stars scale above regular Power Stars. Grand Stars and a plethora of Power Star energy were boosting Bowser by the time you have your last confrontstion. Multiple Lumas who can become Power Stars and Galaxies (which Grand Stars can also allegedly create) were shown to perform the 3-B feat. Lumas are likely inferior to Grand Stars, only a very select few can become Power Stars likely meaning it requires more energy, and the very fact it needed that many Lumas in order to cancel it out proves that a Grand Star's energy is >>>> a single Luma, as they needed dozens upons dozens (and maybe even their entire species if you choose to interpret it that way) in order to cancel out the black hole a single Grand Star created. And no, it just being a regular supernova would not have warranted that many Lumas who can become entire galaxies needing to sacrifice themselves. Does this make sense? I hope so.

I'll just leave out the fact the Map in Galaxy 1 says "Universe Map" and Bowser's location was the farthest away canonically and is practically at the edge of the universe map as well as multiple sources and the game itself talking of the entire universe as a whole as well as the fact the trial galaxies at the edges of the universe are also listed in similar positions to Bowser's, being on the edges of the map. But no, I guess we can't say the entire universe was effected despite all of this

So yeah, I say the Grand Stars and those gifted the Power of the Stars should get a possibly 3-B rating added to their profiles.

If the Power of the Stars thing is rejected as a whole for whatever reasoning in spite of how consistent it's been, then only Grand Stars and people comparable to them would get the 3-B rating since the scaling is clear as day:

Dozens-billions of Lumas who can become galaxies and Power Stars rarely making a reset which effects multiple galaxies including ones canonically farthest from each other ~= A single Grand Star's energy making a black hole

Giant Bowser with Grand Star collecting the energies from many Grand Stars and Power Stars from Rosalina and her ship >>> a Single Grand Star's AP via simple logic. Lubba even implies Bowser has been absorbing things the entire time which would explain the reason why despite only ever absorbing a single Grand Star on-screen, he's canonically said to have gotten stronger and given Mario more issues with each passing fight.

*Actually I've found some new evidence that may suggest the blast did affect the entirety of the universe.

As we should all be aware of by now, the Trial Galaxies are located on the "edges(ENG)/ends(JPN) of the universe." We're completely accepting of that fact, right? We also are aware that the individuals in galaxies from far away end up on your home planet, right? This is acknowledged and true.

Now, what if I told you that in the Grand Finale Galaxy, a Galaxy that's unlocked only after 100% completion, you get to celebrate the Star Festival with the new inhabitants of your world, and among these inhabitants is none other than Bill Board.

Yes, a talking signpost is what might verify the blast being universal.

Let me explain:

Throughout the game, Bill Board reappears throughout the levels, always announcing his name so you're reminded which one of the Boards he is. With me so far? Okay.

Here he is in the Rolling Gizmo Galaxy which is one of the Trial Galaxies taking place at the edges/ends of the universe

And here he is again, at the end of the game, at the "Grand Finale Galaxy", which is Earth

This is rather explicitly after the reset because the NPCs that aren't native are both existing there as well as in awe and Bill Board here even compliments Mario's world.

Given it's the same sentient sign and that it makes no sense for him to suddenly occupy closer galaxies when existing in a Galaxy at the edge of the universe last (which we know because there's a running gag of him not remembering Mario with each appearance that continues even in Rolling Gizmo but stops with Grand Finale where he seems to finally have finally remembered), it's safe to say the blast reached out far enough to reset him as well, and given it's at the ends of the universe I'm gonna doubt it's any less than universal.

So yeah, I'm gonna bring up potential Uni scaling for the Grand Stars again, as the Lumas had to sacrifice a ton of them in order to cancel the effects of it's power -- same reasoning as 3-B, except now we know or at least have a great implication it reached the ends of the universe.


And for those certain individuals, If you want to give me the "but how do we know he used all that power?" argument then please explain to me why Bowser would be absorbing more power from the Stars if he doesn't already have the full extent of a single Grand Star? Why would he grow in size and claim he has gained power and loses that power when defeated? If we don't know how much energy he can take from Grand Stars then clearly the Reactor feat was just casual and not almost all of their power he used? It's also clear as day that the Grand Star is far superior to a single Luma or Power Star so why wouldn't their casual power still show proof of this tier? Rosalina herself even says that they had their Star Power taken from them when she speaks to you after you beat Bowser, and we clearly see him taking that power before you enter his level. Why would she bring this up if it wasn't a signifcant amount of energy he was taking? Notice how she said "when that monster took..."? Not when he was taking, or taken, or anything like that. She directly confirms he took their Star Power. Lubba also implies that Power Stars weren't the only things getting eaten up as well, which shows he WAS eating Power Stars as well. Why wouldn't he use the power he's taking when he's literally using it to make himself grow bigger and thusly more powerful? Do you see how many questions arise when you presume for no good reason he arbitrarily can't use the power he's taking from others? Hell, the ending shows Bowser is super tiny as well, showing that he also gave up some of his own energy in that final encounter and has grown (haha) extremely weak after losing it all. How is this not also more proof he was giving it his all? He consistently shrinks when he loses his power, but never as much as that, so what other explanation could there be?

I'd also like to bring up Star Power, which has been used in games in conjunction with the power of the stars and how it is also consistent.





Mario was granted a mysterious power by the Map, which we later see is the ability to ise Special Moves, which run on Star Power. So basically what happened is the Map granted him Star Power.


In summation


- The Power of the Stars gets it's own special profile for it's consistent mentions across the series, even when referring to objects that aren't Power Stars. It receives upscaling from all the feats and P&A of the Power Stars, Grand Stars, Stars as seen in Mario Party, and even the Crystal Stars/Star Stones. This would also make people happy with how we treat the scaling between base and Power Star users, as it would show a canonical, universal power that was granted in those times.

- Notable users of the Power of the Stars will receive a 3-B rating due to a single Grand Star being qualitatively superior to many Lumas (which can become Galaxies and Power Stars rarely), as clearly shown by the Lumas needing dozens upon dozens at the least to at most their entire race in order to cancel out the black hole just one Grand Star's energy helped create, with their resulting efforts creating a blast that destroyed and recreated the surrounding galaxies, which can be clearly observed from how the blast orignated in a place that required the most Power Stars to travel to while other Galaxies required less to travel to and we see the Earth was also part of it which is where you are located for most of the game. It's extremely evident the feat is at least 3-B and the Grand Stars would scale. An entire race banding together to halt the result of your power would make you superior to most of that race and equal or at least comparable to their combined power. The Power of the Stars was granted to Bowser having absorbed a Grand Star, so it would naturally scale as well.




- 3-B should be considered for the Grand Stars for the Reactor feat being the only reliable feat and form of scaling they have. Even if it's just "possibly 3-B'

- Adding the "As a Group" key for the Lumas for banding together to nullify the black hole caused by the Reactor and in the process resetting the space-time of a Galaxy

- Downgrading Lumas to 4-A due to the fact it took many just to counter the power of a 3-C feat and due to them still being able to qualify as "galaxies" if they're small galaxies which would be 4-A.

- Grand Stars would scale to universal destruction and recreation due to evidence the blast affected an NPC that was at the galaxies on the ends of the universe

- Removal of 3-C (Galaxy level) for the Power Stars and scaling to Lumas, as a Power Star would require less Star Bits (the energy source Hungry Lumas use to become planets and galaxies) than a Grand Star and Galaxy to make. Even with the planets hungry Lumas create they also create Power Stars with them and a Power Star in a Galaxy too, therefore a Power Star can't be attributing to most of that energy




Agree: ( )


Remember to be civil and discuss away.
 
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Hm, interesting, I'll be following and waiting for what others have to say, leaning towards agreeing for now and hoping it stays like that.
 
Another interesting thing of note is that Rosalina and Bowser straight up say "Star Power" in both games when referring to the power the stars grant, and I believe that same phrasing is used to describe the energy you need in order to use Special Moves with the Stars in Paper Mario.
 
A single 3-B feat is nowhere near the consistency needed to be added to profiles.
 
Currently the Grand Star is 3-C because that's it's only shown feat of power.

I'm saying to upgrade that to 3-B. If we have no issues with Grand Stars getting rated as Galaxy then my logic should make it having a possibly 3-B rating fine with all the proof it has.

The "consistency" issue is one y'all have with Base Mario and the scaling. This thread isn't about that. It's specifically about the amp they receive from these objects. Grand Stars only have the one feat and that one feat also has support for 3-B scaling.

The Power of the Stars, should we consider it, would at worst receive a Varies tier for supplying different amounts of Star Power canonically, with the lowest showing being the Crystal Stars/Star Stones which house the power of the stars merely only allowing Shadow Queen to "destroy the ENTIRE world" which can be Tier 6 or 5 depending on what you support.

Anything lower than that and the argued "consistent" tier (which apparently y'all are claiming is Tier 7-6) would overlap with this amp which is one of the big issues people had with the current scaling of Base to the Grand Stars/Power Stars.
 
Obviously bosses with no feats but powered by Power Stars/Grand Stars should only receieve the low-end scaling. I feel that's a good compromise.

For Power Stars specifically, they would scale above objects that were said to be "as bright as a star" (Shine Sprites by Toadsworth, though this may just be hyperbole on his part) and also showed luminosity on par with or greater than actual stars in the verse, such as the Mini Stars in MP9 making space bright and full of life and light in spite of actual stars still existing (at least 6-B I believe). Power Stars themselves emit a bright light in the animation for returning Mario to the hub as well, which outshines multiple stars and even galaxies. We know it's the Power Stars because the light fades away fast, supporting it being a flash of light, and the Power Stars are capabale of emitting light.

This is just in case the Tier 4 rating for the Stars gets yeeted. I feel like these would be things they can scale to at their lowest.
 
So who actually gets 3-B from this besides the Grand Star?
 
If we accept the Power of the Stars as a power granted by various amping Star Items then possibly you could make an argument for those receiving downscaling. So the only others that MIGHT (keyword here) get the scaling would be those who can use the 7 Crystal Stars and Shadow Queen, people who were granted the Power of the Stars by Power Stars, which in 64 is like, every boss as Bowser gave them power while he had the power of the stars. Maybe the bosses in Galaxy powered by Power Stars.

The only issue is that Mario still fights King Bob-Omb with no amps, fights Galaxy 1's bosses with no provable amps, and uses his Star Power against Mario Party bosses a few times when they were all in base, most notably Mario Party 7's final boss where Bowser tanks dozens of Stars being summoned down onto him and exploding.

This is why a Varies tier would possibly be a good idea for the Power of the Stars, as they do canonically supply differing amounts of Star Power (though typically dependent on how many Stars you have on you) and would explain away these little inconsistencies.

So at best the Power Star and Grand Star Users we have now would scale, Mario Party Users of Stars may scale, and the 7 Crystal Star Users and people comparable to the 7 (Basically Shadow Queen, though Grodus, Gloomtail, and Bonetail would also have arguments) would scale. But again, this is at most.
 
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Also, if we do assume the light that flashes when you return to the Observatory/Starship Mario are from the Power Stars (where else would it come from), the ones you get from Trial Galaxies come from the edge of the universe, and yet you can still see the flash of light before Mario even shows up and returns. What's notable is Galaxy 1 takes place from the Observatory in Earth's Orbit too, so we have a clear Earth-to-Universe Edge distance.

I think that would grant a decent tier although I'm not sure. The light overwhelming part of a Galaxy and outshining one should already be a good Tier 5 feat anyways.
 
Bump.

Should I also add the pros and cons to the Power Star's creation of the painting worlds since that would also be relevant to this thread?
 
Bump.

Should I also add the pros and cons to the Power Star's creation of the painting worlds since that would also be relevant to this thread?
I would probably do so, and you may want to post threads like these next time much later and not at 12AM, would've got more traction if it was posted at noon
 
Power Stars Create a Realm with Starry Skies


Pros:

- The orginal Nintendo 64 game says explicitly that Bowser made/created a world in the castle walls and paintings

- Certain manuals, guides, and other secondary sources support him creating a world

- Wiggler states he feels more at peace gazing up at the stars

- Realms have a Sun which backs up the claims above

- These realms are supported by secondary and even official sources to be (a) separate general world(s)

- Bowser's levels would make no goddamn sense if he weren't making his own world(s)

- 64 and 3D All-Stars, the newest entry, both state Bowser created the world(s), so arguably they could hold more priority over a game that hasn't even been acknowledged by Nintendo yet (64 DS)

- Luma scaling (3-C) would support them being capable of 4-A and above feats

Cons:

- Mario 64 DS only states Bowser was creating a monster land in the walls and paintings

- Various sources will often leave out the creation of these worlds and just say Bowser wanted to convert the residents and make a monster world/land that would soon overflow from the paintings into reality

- Sources will also state that these "worlds" are just one big Painting World and that these paintings are enchanted

- Inconsistencies run rampant: Even in 64 DS which has no mention of Bowser creating worlds the text from one of the Bob-Omb Buddies for Bob-Omb Battlefield still remains the same, which refers to these as separate worlds despite calling it a singular "land" before; sometimes Bowser created the paintings and sometimes there's no mention at all and his "goal" is to simply make enough monsters to overflow from the paintings

- There's evidence to suggest these worlds existed already, such as Bob-Omb Buddies already knowing about the castle and the other worlds and somehow traveling among them; the worlds having history; Thwomp's Fortress existing in another Galaxy possibly suggesting these places already exist within the universe (though this interpretation alone brings up an entire list of contradictions even for the Con side so Whomp's Fortress should honestly be disregarded); and converting residents into monsters if he already created them would sound pretty counterintuitive -- why not just make the worlds with obedient residents?

- The exact wording for the creation statement says "using" as if to say he's still in the process of doing so. Since it was already an unknown timeframe we now have an even longer one knowing he wasn't finished.

- Paintings in other games are merely transportation methods, so these paintings could also be.

- The fact that only one secondary source supports the creation argument (that I'm aware of) while everything else doesn't mention that, and 64 DS, the offical game that is supposed to canonically be the successor to 64 basically retconned the creation ever happening. This argument would hold DS over 3D All-Stars and see an HD re-release as having less priority
 
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Anyways, given the fact either side can make a compelling argument, I feel like the feat should get a "possibly 4-A" attached due to a ton of inconsistencies potentially making it questionable but still having a decent amount of support to warrant it being a feat. I don't think getting rid of it entirely nor keeping it as fully legit are good options given all this, which is why I think a "possibly" rating would work.

This would mean the only direct feats we would have from the Power Stars are them making the flashes of light when returning to the Observatory/Starship Mario (which is likely Tier 5 for outshining galaxies to possibly Tier 4 considering some came from the edge of the universe). Power Stars would likely upscale from the many other forms of Stars which can brighten the night sky as well as upscaling from Shine Sprites being facets of the Sun's power and responsible for it's brightness as well as the statement fron Toadsworth that they're as bright as a star. Being facets of sun power/brightness would likely make Shines somewhere in Tier 6 split amongst them, as it takes like several dozen Shines before the citizens state stuff about the Sun's power returning and the plaza losing the haze completely.

Also the potential scaling to Lumas
 
Yeah. I feel like the feat is definitely more shoddy now that I've compiled all the evidence for both sides together, but I think the creation is still plausible, except maybe just limited to Bowser's own World, which was noted to be called "The Dark World". It had a fiery sea and "the heavens" in Japanese which is to say the sky and beyond, so his own realm being comparable to the MSS-sized Painting World isn't far-fetched.

But if we get rid of it altogether I guess I could be fine with that. We'd only have my "Power of the Stars" scaling which places it at a solid Tier 3, Luma scaling due to Power Stars being implied to take up more energy for transformations and thusly more rare as a result meaning they upscale from 3-C, and potential luminosity feats to use for the rating which can range from Tier 6 up to potentially Tier 4. Also mayyyyyybe the black hole calc whenever the black hole feat thread is made, which would be Tier 4 if it got accepted.

Still no consistent tier even among the Power Star's potential feats and scaling chains it seems.
 
I think the galaxy creation is far more viable than the painting creation, for two reasons
1. It happens on screen, so there is no vagueness about it
2. It happens instantly, while the paintings have several lines which imply overtime creation
 
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Actually I've found some new evidence that may suggest the blast did affect the entirety of the universe.

As we should all be aware of by now, the Trial Galaxies are located on the "edges(ENG)/ends(JPN) of the universe." We're completely accepting of that fact, right? We also are aware that the individuals in galaxies from far away end up on your home planet, right? This is acknowledged and true.

Now, what if I told you that in the Grand Finale Galaxy, a Galaxy that's unlocked only after 100% completion, you get to celebrate the Star Festival with the new inhabitants of your world, and among these inhabitants is none other than Bill Board.

Yes, a talking signpost is what might verify the blast being universal.

Let me explain:

Throughout the game, Bill Board reappears throughout the levels, always announcing his name so you're reminded which one of the Boards he is. With me so far? Okay.

Here he is in the Rolling Gizmo Galaxy which is one of the Trial Galaxies taking place at the edges/ends of the universe

And here he is again, at the end of the game, at the "Grand Finale Galaxy", which is Earth

This is rather explicitly after the reset because the NPCs that aren't native are both existing there as well as in awe and Bill Board here even compliments Mario's world.

Given it's the same sentient sign and that it makes no sense for him to suddenly occupy closer galaxies when existing in a Galaxy at the edge of the universe last, it's safe to say the blast reached out far enough to reset him as well, and given it's at the ends of the universe I'm gonna doubt it's any less than universal.

So yeah, I'm gonna bring up potential Uni scaling for the Grand Stars again, as the Lumas had to sacrifice a ton of them in order to cancel the effects of it's power -- same reasoning as 3-B, except now we know or at least have a great implication it reached the ends of the universe.
 
The Power of the Stars gets it's own special profile for it's consistent mentions across the series, even when referring to objects that aren't Power Stars. It receives upscaling from all the feats and P&A of the Power Stars, Grand Stars, Stars as seen in Mario Party, and even the Crystal Stars/Star Stones. This would also make people happy with how we treat the scaling between base and Power Star users, as it would show a canonical, universal power that was granted in those times.
The power of the stars is a general term. There are different kinds of stars that are not all same. Some are more powerful than others and amp Mario accordingly or give him abilities. There is no single "power of the stars", or at least I don't see anything like that from the evidence shown here. All you did was take unrelated instances where people are talking about getting amped by the different kinds of stars, and that's fine. We already assume they amp the characters. But to say that they do so to some predefined same extent is fallacious. Different stars power-up Mario differently and they should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Notable users of the Power of the Stars will receive a 3-B rating due to a single Grand Star being qualitatively superior to many Lumas (which can become Galaxies and Power Stars rarely)
Again, there is no singular "Power of the Stars". It's just power of the stars as in, power granted by different stars differently. As for needing many Lumas that can rarely become galaxies, the gap between 3-C and 3-B is huuuuuuuge. You can combine 100 galaxy level energies and still not reach multi-galaxy level.

with their resulting efforts creating a blast that destroyed and recreated the surrounding galaxies, which can be clearly observed from how the blast orignated in a place that required the most Power Stars to travel to while other Galaxies required less to travel to and we see the Earth was also part of it which is where you are located for most of the game
I don't understand this point. Where is the destruction and recreation of several galaxies? All we see is a reset and that's it. People from distant galaxies being brought together in a place =/= the blast traveled that far, when we already know it's some sort of reality warping effect that reset everything. We discussed this in the earlier thread about how there is no proof of that.

Grand Star is 3-C only because Bowser said he will create a new galaxy from it. But even in the last scene where we see Mario yell "Welcome new galaxy", we see that the "galaxy" is miniature.

Even in spite of the power of the stars addition, the scaling and evidence for it seems rather blatant, so 3-B should be considered for the Grand Stars regardless.

Grand Stars would scale to universal destruction and recreation due to evidence the blast affected an NPC that was at the galaxies on the ends of the universe
All of this seems like a ton of reaching, as I already said.

And for those certain individuals, If you want to give me the "but how do we know he used all that power?" argument then please explain to me why Bowser would be absorbing more power from the Stars if he doesn't already have the full extent of a single Grand Star? Why would he grow in size and claim he has gained power and loses that power when defeated? If we don't know how much energy he can take from Grand Stars then clearly the Reactor feat was just casual and not almost all of their power he used?
Regarding this, Bowser gets hurt from a single touch of the Grand Star's pure energy. That alone is enough to prove that he doesn't absorb all of it. Besides, when you are claiming that you absorbed 3-B energy fully and are able to do 3-B feats, the burden of proof on you increase to show him do something like that. Not show him throw big rocks and get defeated by those big rocks.


Where in the scan does it say he absorbed multiple grand stars all at once? All it says that Bowser took their star power, meaning he took the stars powering up the ship. Doesn't say he absorbed all their powers.
 
He was "eating them up". Pretty ******* sure I don't need to argue semantics here. He was absorbing those energies and I showed a clip of the comet getting power sucked from it. Unless that looks like simply taking stars from the ship to you. Might wanna have your eyes checked. A character stating someone took their power after we're shown that power getting literally eaten, the method of powering up the villain does, implies they took all of it and also literally absorbed that power. And again, why would you "take power" from something and not be applying it to yourself when you've literally been doing that the entire game and Lubba even says he's doing it to get bigger, which is synonymous with the amping as it changes size based on power. Yes, I'm eating your power, but I'm not doing it in a way that powers me up or anything despite that being my main goal?? It doesnt make sense on YOUR part to suddenly assume something that goes against what's consistently been shown to be the one specific thing Bowser did with these artifacts: Use their power.

But please direct me to a time where he "just took" the Stars and never used them to power himself or others up. Machines still count, which I feel like I shouldn't have to say but with you guys apparently every little detail matters.

Not gonna touch the ******* reactor burning shit again. It's become rather annoying. I'm not saying Base has to scale, but he very clearly was amped by them. You yourself admit to this. Are you saying we should treat Grand Stars and Power Stars as unquantifiable amps via this logic? Despite us having feats of power to scale from and that were directly shown and stated? Cause that's what it's sounding like to me.

Also, where is your proof the thing Bowser got burned on (a rather inconsistent resistance anyways and full of PIS examples making this burn shit not a good fallback anyways) was the Grand Star's energy? As far as I know, that's only said in the, as you would say, "flawed" guide. In-game it looks more like Lava to me. The fact it cools down and stops moving but still exists also supports it just being lava so, um, gonna need to fact-check you there, because only the guide says that and we all know the guide isn't full of facts. Gonna have to dismiss that counterclaim.

The last thread was a mess. In the last remaining posts up until it's closing there wasn't any agreement on the reset not destroying things at all. You're making shit up there. I explicitly remember showing the proof of how Bowser constantly drained Grand Stars until they would almost die and I also remember explicitly showing the proof that destruction was indeed implied by none other than Rosalina herself.

"When stars die, they scatter stardust across the cosmos. That stardust eventually reforms to make a new star, and so the cycle of life continues. But the cycle never repeats itself in quite the same way. So... you'll see."

"Yes... All new life... Carries the essence of stars. Even all of you."


May have butchered it a little, but she very clearly talks about life and death cycles, goes on to say the cycle doesn't repeat itself the same way, and then likens their situation to the star's continuing where she left off, a great indicator that the people there were part of a current cycle of life and death.

Mario says Galaxy, sure, but if we're gonna use an English VAs line as an indicator then clearly the English version of Galaxy supercedes the Japanese then. Meaning that the blast originated at the Center of the Universe and reached an NPC at the Edges of the Universe.

Why would they have been a part of a very blatant life and death cycle stated by Rosalina if nothing was ever destroyed? Oh, is it just life/death manipulation hax on a universal scale now? Are we going with that? Are we ignoring the fact that it's a very literal explosion that happens as well? That the Lumas has to counter the black hole specifically and make it collapse in on itself, which doesn't take an astrophysicist to acknowledge the fact it would cause a release of energy on a massive scale, i.e. an explosion?

I'm sorry but this is very basic logic. I really shouldn't have to explain this. LITERALLY NOTHING shows that Lumas have the capability of reality warping. They are the ones who accomplished the feat. Their entire species is based on mass-to-energy which explodes from them when they transform. They use this energy release in the ending to counter the black hole. There. Is. No. Reality. Warping. That. Is. Unsupported. Where. Is. Your. Proof. Using. Consistent. Showings. And. Abilities. From. The. Game.
 
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Besides, when you are claiming that you absorbed 3-B energy fully and are able to do 3-B feats, the burden of proof on you increase to show him do something like that. Not show him throw big rocks and get defeated by those big rocks.
Also just want to point out this.

You're part of the admin/mods, right? Something like that? All those fancy titles in your profile. How many verses have you worked with in your time here?

I don't want to be rude but the whole reason we have Attack Potency instead of Destructive Capability as the rating for power is because we acknowledge fiction often does not follow the same rules. One series may have characters blowing crap up or physically punching thing to smithereens, while other verses are abundant in powerscaling where you don't have to show off a big feat in order to scale to it.

That's just seriously low and kinda unprofessional coming from someone of your status. A regular user shouldn't have to be asserting this to you.
 
First of all, tone down the attitude there. I don't have time to be condescending in return, so I'd appreciate the same from you. I am directly going to address the points.

He was "eating them up". Pretty ******* sure I don't need to argue semantics here. He was absorbing those energies and I showed a clip of the comet getting power sucked from it. Unless that looks like simply taking stars from the ship to you. Might wanna have your eyes checked. A character stating someone took their power after we're shown that power getting literally eaten, the method of powering up the villain does, implies they took all of it and also literally absorbed that power.
Can you provide the video where it happens instead of disconnected screenshots, since the former provide better context.

But please direct me to a time where he "just took" the Stars and never used them to power himself or others up.
Just out of curiosity, is there an instance where Bowser is shown to absorb more than one stars on screen? I did not address the point about Bowser getting bigger and stronger since it is directly stated and I am not even contesting that. But as I asked above, a video might explain better about your point of eating up 7 grand stars.

I'm not saying Base has to scale, but he very clearly was amped by them. You yourself admit to this. Are you saying we should treat Grand Stars and Power Stars as unquantifiable amps via this logic? Despite us having feats of power to scale from and that were directly shown and stated? Cause that's what it's sounding like to me.
I agree they get amped, it is very blatant. And yes, unless quantified, they should be unquantifiable amps. You yourself brought up the point that when a grand star is used to its full extent, it loses its shine. So if Bowser absorbed all of its power, it should have lost its shine in the same way. Plus, the last thread already went over it. There still needs to be actual proof of him absorbing all the energy. The burden of proof is still on the positive claim. Either in the form of a direct statement that they absorbed all the energy or for them to perform at the very least a feat within a few orders of magnitude of what the Power Stars do. If there isn’t that, then they are not assumed to have absorbed all the energy.

I don't want to be rude but the whole reason we have Attack Potency instead of Destructive Capability as the rating for power is because we acknowledge fiction often does not follow the same rules.
And the whole reason I brought up that point is because that's all Bowser does after absorbing the grand star. It's to show that he did nothing of note to demostrate the "galaxy level" energy he supposedly absorbed, not to assert that Bowser is rock level. Again, there needs to be some kind of evidence that tells us he absorbed all of the energy. This argument is literally the last thread all over again. (Not to mention that your point is just AoE fallacy abuse. DC doesn't have to match AP, but you at least need to prove your AP somehow.)

Also, where is your proof the thing Bowser got burned on (a rather inconsistent resistance anyways and full of PIS examples making this burn shit not a good fallback anyways) was the Grand Star's energy? As far as I know, that's only said in the, as you would say, "flawed" guide. In-game it looks more like Lava to me. The fact it cools down and stops moving but still exists also supports it just being lava so, um, gonna need to fact-check you there, because only the guide says that and we all know the guide isn't full of facts. Gonna have to dismiss that counterclaim.
I'll let @SamanPatou clarify on that since he is the one who brought it up in the last thread.

The last thread was a mess. In the last remaining posts up until it's closing there wasn't any agreement on the reset not destroying things at all.
There was. If there was no such agreement, grand star would have been universal for destroying and restoring the universe. There was a lot of discussion on that point.

May have butchered it a little, but she very clearly talks about life and death cycles, goes on to say the cycle doesn't repeat itself the same way, and then likens their situation to the star's continuing where she left off, a great indicator that the people there were part of a current cycle of life and death.
But you don't remember Mav and others already addressing the point in the last thread. Smh this is rinse and repeat. In that statement Rosa is talking about all the Lumas who sacrificed their lives, they dies but they will be reborn again. Cycle of life and death continues. None of that suggests that the universe was destroyed and reborn simply because Lumas were. Your only proof here is that she says all life carries the essence of stars, which is just a way of saying that life goes through the cycle of life and death, which is a concept many people believe irl. Nothing in that suggests the universe was destroyed.

You have brought only a few new things up in this thread, and I remember asking you for the proof of Bowser absorbing all the grand stars from the comet observatory in the last thread too, but you didn't. I am only interested in that point right now.
 
Nothing new has been brought up. We already know various characters get a vague power up from the stars. The problem is that there's not enough to suggest these characters absorb the entirety of this power. No one who is supposedly absorbing them has any feats that are even like within several tiers of the "created starry realm sky" or SMG1 ending stuff. Not to mention some things that directly suggest he didn't, like the stars not dimming out or him being unable to even touch this same energy he apparently absorbed in its entirety in the first game.

But even taking this entirely at face value, a single 3-B feat vs three 4-A feats and pretty much nothing else surpassing Tier 7 is an outlier. Do not go "What about ___" Superman has like a dozen blatantly universal feats that are all considered outliers. "Area of Effect" is not to be used to pretend outliers don't exist, or an excuse to give someone a tier they have no actual feats to back up.

Plus this "absorbing power of stars" whatever is by definition an amp. I don't know how this would scale to anyone's base form.
 
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I can only just keep saying I disagree. I've provided my reasonings and they are built on sound logic within the gamed while your arguments are all over the place, using this guide you had so many issues with in previous threads to try and support your argument now and talking about an AP Fallacy with your "gets hurt by big rocks" example. You seemingly refuse to accept anything I show EXCEPT when I'm being hypercritical like you. Your arguments have no logical basis. Destruction seems blatanrs

I don't want to get into another back-and-worth of us not changing our opinions (especially when you were using something only said in a guide you claimed was not credible to downgrade them last thread - a hypocritical argument showing a bias) where nothing gets done.

So let's just ignore the Galaxy shit for now and focus on how we're gonna rate the Power Stars and savw the headache, okay?

Personally I'm not opposed to removing their 4-A rating, but if we all agree to thid we'd havw to suggest what next to scale them to. How do y'all feel about Luma scaling? What about potential luminosity calcs for the flashes of light the Power Stars give off before returning Mario? They would be the only potential direct feats left.
 
While I agree that Fox's above posts were very harsh, I honestly agree with most of his points. There is a lot of vagueness about the dimensions created in Mario 64, though the description in 3D All Stars game select still mentions those dimensions being worldwide dimensions. Also, history can also just be something they also created; it's a similar case with Termina which despite seemingly having a long history, it's implied it hasn't existed for long in some sources. But like Termina, descriptions are also conflicting. The Bom-Ombs mentioning they were at war for a long time could just be an implication that Time was created and that it has a different flow of time from the Mushroom Kingdom.

But I will stay neutral on that, but Power Stars should definitely be equal with Lumas; they're basically the same race. Also, Lumas are regularly able to output all their might into a single attack, so the High 4-C or even 3-C stuff isn't simply "Pool of energy", but they can actually use that and recycle it. Also, saying "It's just magic" is a pet peeve and not a refute. If I can magically nuke an entire galaxy, I'd still be galaxy level via magic. The galaxy formations are literally just miniature big bangs and there are 6 Lumas that go boom and form into galaxies in Galaxy 1 alone and even more in Galaxy 2. And those same Lumas were crew mates otherwise overpowered by Bowser. The High 4-C feat was also just a casual closing of a black hole via gravitational pull.

Also, those are each feats using the potency of one Power Star, and Mario usually just carries multiple and doesn't normally use them as an amp in most games. Though, in Mario 64 DS there is a vague statement of growing stronger with each one, but I still think the 120 or 150 multiplier should be removed from Cal's blog regardless. Otherwise we'd also be using it for the Galaxy level feats. That blog should be focused on the specific calculation, which Lina's version was accepted. And yeah, Bowser gave a lot of his minions each a Power Star.

As for the one 3-B or higher feat, it's pretty much Grand Star exclusive, which may or may not be outlierish for base Mario. But Grand Stars are by nature stronger than the peak form of a regular Power Star, which Dino said is 3-C at bare minimum. But the 3-B feat is admittedly vague, though I will mention lighting up the Universe is like 4-B or 4-A I forgot which but it's a Universal range feat.

I know this paragraph specifically is derailment so please do not comment on it on this thread but... Fox didn't use a whataboutism on the thread, that was Ryukama technically. Not to mention it was followed by a false statement; but just going to correct it to get it out of the way. 99% of Post-Crisis Superman's Universal or above feats aren't even universal to begin with. The context behind them has either been, the Phantom Zone being prone to chain reactions. A book that allegedly has infinite mass doesn't actually have infinite mass combined with the fact that Superman and his friend's combined might can't lift it if one read the rest of the comic, there's some metaphorical statement but he didn't physically or with any of his own powers perform a feat that was universal; it was Skyfather who did all the might work. And he only fought avatars of universal or multiversal entities and not their true selves; all of which are way weaker than universal. The alleged "Dozens of Tier 2 feats" is actually like less than 4 with all things considered, and all of them are different tiers and each super vague respectively. Mario also has the same, he has one multiversal feat, one Universal+ durability feat and the like, but both outliers. Zark I heard had other plans, but that's enough derailment. Take it up to DMs if any further discussion is needed.

I have DM'd Dino to see how he's doing. But I still firmly believe that High 4-C to 3-C is the most reasonable tier. No whataboutisms needed, Lumas have their consistent lore, and all other low end portrayals for Mario and the main cast are just stage play directions by creators. Mario actually purposely doesn't use all his might against obstacles and Goombas for the sake of making his stories entertaining.
 
Grand Stars should be exponentially stronger than Power Stars.

Bowser overpowering Lumas is suspect though, as is everyone scaling to Lumas transformation feats, including the Lumas themselves. We have dozens of characters on the wiki who have higher Tiers during singular attacks that don't scale to everything they do, and the Lumas are clearly not capable of constantly outputting that power, because they quite literally die when they do.

I'm fine with removing the 4-A feat, High 4-C is fine for now, we'll discuss the Black Holes later, but as of this moment they are accepted as legitimate black holes so I will do so. We most definitely are going to have to discuss the Elephant in the room, or rather, the small planetoids in the room, that being the Galaxies sizes of course, either here or in another thread down the line.
 
No need because that's literally graphical limitations to make the gameplay make sense. Cosmological objects in Mario are consistently their actual size, save for like two portrayals of the moon and whether or not the stars in the sky are the small items rather than actual balls of energy, though it can always be a case of both like in Mario Party. Galaxy 2's Worlds and the backgrounds of 1 confirm galaxies look like their real life counterparts. Rosalina calling tiny Planetoids "galaxies" would make extremely little sense, and also the lumas that become galaxies turn into bright elliptical things on the overworld. They don't become these small planetoids you claim. The places you visit can easily be a small section of an entire galaxy too.

Are we gonna use the fact there are literally skies in some of the galaxies where space should be to show that space itself in Mario is just one big lie and all feats are invalid?

And the ending with the "new galaxy" would follow the same logic as the other galaxies (which by the way also supports destruction having happened. I highly doubt Mario's calling it new because some NPCs he's already met are on his planet now. No, it's likely he understood the implication of what Rosalina was saying and that things were destroyed.
 
You know, Grand Finale Galaxy is called a galaxy despite it obviously being in Mushroom Kingdom.



And practically all levels are nowhere near actually galaxy sized.

SMG_Screenshot_Loopdeswoop_Galaxy_%28The_Galaxy%27s_Greatest_Wave%29.png

SMG_Screenshot_Rolling_Gizmo_Galaxy_%28Gizmos%2C_Gears%2C_and_Gadgets%29.png

SMG_Screenshot_Gusty_Garden_Galaxy_%28Bunnies_in_the_Wind%29.png

SMG_Screenshot_Bowser_Jr.%27s_Airship_Armada_%28Sinking_the_Airships%29.png

SMG_Screenshot_Buoy_Base_Galaxy_%28The_Floating_Fortress%29.png

SMG_Loopdeeloop_Overview.png

SMG_Screenshot_Sea_Slide_Galaxy_%28The_Silver_Stars_of_Sea_Slide%29.png


unknown.png


We have absolute evidence that galaxies in Mario Galaxy are not literal. Are there any other evidence that they are real galaxies besides NPCs say they are and that “gameplay limits”?
 
The courses you visit aren't the entire galaxies; starry sky backgrounds and even some stages being over a much larger planet emphasize that. Galaxies are galaxies and backgrounds and everything are merely parts of each galaxy. There's still literally lore of Rosalina calling the galaxies massive. And the Mushroom Kingdom is located inside the Milky Way Galaxy which is a real galaxy. And all those other galaxies are still seen as similarly sized. Also, Rosalina called it a new world, not galaxy. But still that stage was more so meant to be fan service. Though, it's possible New World might refer to Super Luigi Galaxy; and alternate timeline where Mario doesn't exist and that there are 2 Luigis.
 
There's also the fact Grand Finale Galaxy loses the "galaxy" in japanese IIRC.

Also if we use gameplay to determine the sizws of things, then I guess Mario's planet and moon are super fractured with areas of large fissures because in Odyssey's gameplay these places have large chasms between them and other parts of the land, even liquid. This definitely isn't just a gameplay element, no, not at all.
 
Will comment soon regarding the galaxies, busy atm so I can't right now
 
Ahh, I misplaced information.

Still, I hardly think Grand Finale Galaxy being called a Galaxy means anything. Mario is in a galaxy after all. Could just be saying the final galaxy is your very own with you back on your home planet. Because again, nothing says that those levels are all of the galaxy. Much like how the places you visit in Odyssey are smaller portions of a bigger area.
 
To seriously argue this is like saying that all in-game levels must represent the entirety of whatever they're trying to portray. Clearly the country in Mario 1 was just a stream of city blocks lined up one after the other. Clearly the planet and moon are full of areas of null space because many lands are floating in big chasms and those kingdoms must be super small then as a result. What? Odyssey is fine because it has a World Map? So does Galaxy 2? And it depicts the actual cosmological objects? Why would Odyssey be okay but this not?

This entire argument is trying to force a narrative based on the limitations and creative liberties the team had to take for a Mario game which has Mario traversing the universe to rescue Power Stars and Peach from Bowser. The fact we know Mario is in space traveling the universe should be enough proof on it's own, and the second fact that should show how silly this argument is is that the burden of proof is on you guys to showcase that these locations aren't just smaller portions of an entirely galaxy and that they indeed are the entire galaxies, which has no actual proof - you just have your interpretations based on the gameplay of the levels. No, "Welcome to the Galaxy" isn't proof. I can say "welcome to [insert country/city] but thay doesn't mean the person has traveled my entire country/city and knows every place in it.

And if we say that Earth was likened to a Galaxu because of Grand Finale for whatever asinine reason, let's also note Rosalina specifcally says referring to Earth that she "visits this planet every 100 years" and never once calls it a Galaxy. Level Select Name <<<< In-game statements from the most reliable person there.
 
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Just being called galaxies is not enough, especially given the rather liberal use of terms thrown around for celestial bodies in the Super Mario Bros series, you say they are meant to represent bigger objects, but you have to prove that.

Regarding the starry backgrounds, that can be used as a point against the size of the galaxies, given that many galaxies contain the very same background. Now obviously the easy retort would be that this is just due to graphical/gameplay limitations, but again, you have to prove this, which you will have a very hard time doing when the game itself shows multiple galaxies right outside Mario's home planet (And I do not believe for a second that Nintendo did not have the ability to display galaxies when PS1 games could a decade prior). As was pointed out earlier, many of these "galaxies" are just star ships, Bowser Jr's Airship Armada is considered a galaxy, but it most certainly isn't.

The problem we have here is that you are claiming they represent full galaxies when not once is any galaxy shown to be larger than a collection of small planetoids, saying these are meant to represent full size planets is a strange claim, and one you are definitely going to have to back up, just saying they didn't have the graphical ability to do show this is not a good refute, because by that point you are arguing that everything we see in the game is simply metaphorical, which makes everything unusable.

In SMG2, each world is shown to be larger than the last in terms of scope, starting with a planet and a few moons, then a solar system, then a nebulae, and increasing until reaching the center of the universe, narratively it shows that the journey is taking Mario farther and farther out into the universe, but that falls apart entirely if he's already travelling to actual galaxies by World 1. Plus, the world map showing the galaxies as galaxy sized in world 5 cannot be used as evidence, as the very same world depicts Starship Mario and equal size and World 1 depicts them smaller than clouds.

Lastly, Rosalina referring to them as galaxies is not a point in favor of them being galaxy sized if the terminology for galaxy is different in the Mario universe.
 
What? The levels that are galaxies are just decoration on the map. No one is claiming those level icons were the sizes of the galaxies themselves.

Lubba also calls the Worlds themselves "grand galaxies" in japanese. Are we gonna say Mario's Earth is that big? The Grand World Map shows all the world ("large galaxies") are of a similar size with the same borders. If you argue they're a representation of the journey showing your progress through the universe then there's still the fact they passed by clusters of galaxies regardless and world one would just be a cosmetic showing your starting point of Earth

I don't have to prove they're supposed to represent the actual cosmological objects when we DO have depictions of actual galaxies and planets within the same game. You cannot make a game where you travel the entire universe EXACTLY to ******* scale on a Wii game. I'm not saying they couldn't show galaxies or planets because they've always been able to, but just that having Mario actually try and traverse an entire planet and fly the length of solar systems and galaxies is a bit too ambitious for the Wii. How about YOU go and develop an entire Wii game where you can travel am entire planet's circumference and them multiple tha a few dozens times over and aee if it can realistically be done?

Bowser Jr.'s Airship Armada is not even labeled a galaxy though? The text for "welcome to the galaxy" displays but again, this does NOT mean the entire level is the WHOLE Galaxy. Entering a new country does not mean I can see all of it or travel all of it and YOU can't prove these aren't just smaller portions of a galaxy either. This is just silly.

We have actual galaxies and planets shown in game but uh, I guess what we call planets and galaxies in lore aren't supposed to mean the actual planets and galaxies that exist because of... gameplay reasons? Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds?

Please stop with this. I'm not gonna argue this point any further. If the wiki actually let's this "argument" pass than I would lose the very little faith I've had in this place. Y'all can claim game mechanics when it supports YOUR argument with no other proof but we actually have proof of the real objects existing and drawing a simple conclusion from that, but it's argued to be dismissed because of gameplay. Wow. What a awesome reason. I guess all of Mario is actually just a smaller universe than real life's because the objects aren't always to scale and shift in size to for gameplay or graphical limitations constantly, like the Castle example. Or the Moon. Or for Level Select aesthetics. Guess Mario can actually make himself as large as castles and entire stretches of land without the Mega Mushroom because level selects in the 2D series show him as very large on the World Map OR these places are actually just very small!! Yeah, that's the one!! Surely sizes and portrayals of objects don't constantly vary in depiction in the Mario franchise and the actual consistent sizes can just be written off and we'll use all the examples that downgrade the verse instead!!
 
The idea that the places you visit are just 1 part of the Galaxy seems kinda odd to me considering then you’d have to assume a Whole Galaxy is named after a Egg, a Hive, and the the one linked on the luma page itself a Rocket

like the entire argument hinges on Developer intent. I’d have to ask why the Developers. Assuming they did mean them to be whole galaxies. Not only made just homogenized names but also why they decided to make a map where all these separate galaxies are pretty much next to each other in the exact imagery you give a Solar System

image0.jpg

I mean even if you want to say graphical limitations. a year after Spore had this worldmap

spore-pc-1.jpg
 
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