Sonic upgrades

[Cropfist]

I guess most of your points are fair enough, but I'll just say that many characters on this site are scaled to much higher levels than their actually demonstrated feats and how is Kirby's scaling ridiculous?

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Cropfist: Normally your example would have worked in a case such as DBZ, where the power increase of the main cast is consistent.

However, in a case like this, the power of Super Sonic seems to vary wildly according to what game he is in, and thus, we do not know where exactly he stands in the power level ratings. As Uncle has stated before, the Chaos Emeralds are a plot device for Sonic to come and put said enemy down, no matter how strong the said enemy is in the game.

Also noting the fact that Super Sonic was visibly exhausted against Dark Gaia during the fight, and you get even more of a justification for Super Sonic to be Large Planet level in that specific scenario.

Summing it up: Sonic's power levels are way too inconsistent throughout the games to give a proper rating for, so scaling Dark Gaia to a character whose power is constantly changing would cause even further problems. It is best to keep Dark Gaia's ratings based on the feat he has shown in the game, and determine his tiering from there.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Lina Shields seems to make sense.

 

[Cropfist]

Matthew Schoeder has made a reasonable point about this previously that was supposed to be applied. I'm fine with his proposal of roughly "Varies from 5-A to 4-A".

 

[Lina_Shields]

Hmm, it seems that Matt's suggestion was previously considered here for the changes. If we allow the change in Sonic's AP to the term "Varies", I am on board with what Crop has suggested above.

The "Varies" part is rather important due to the fact that Sonic's power seems to fluctuate too wildly to place him a solid tiering for.

 

[Antvasima]

A variable tier from game to game seems reasonable under the circumstances, yes.

 

[Unclechairman]

I'd rather it be "Varies from 5-B to 4-A, most likely 5-A", 5-B being the low end from the Eclipse Cannon/ARK collision from Adventure 2, 4-A being the high-end from the FEB, and 5-A being an accepted middle ground from Dark Gaia, where Super Sonic exhausted himself, lending itself as the most likely portrayal of Super Sonic's limits.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would Unclechairman's suggestion be an acceptable solution for the rest of you?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm cool with it.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Mind if I see the Eclipse Cannon/ARK Collision from Adventure 2? Perhaps I can do a calc on it to see where the feat actually stands.

 

[Unclechairman]

It never actually happened. The whole plot of the game was about averting it. The best actually shown was it's destruction of half the moon with six emeralds, or maybe it destroying the Black Comet at the end of Shadow the Hedgehog. However, Gerald Robotnik (a genius scientist) rigged it in Adventure 2 so that when it had all seven emeralds, a hidden program would activate and cause it to fall to the Earth, destroying the planet. The Eclipse Cannon is also frequently stated to be able to destroy the planet with all seven emeralds.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I need to ask: How many 5-A feats does Super Sonic have in the entirety of the Sonic universe? Considering the number of Tier 2 feats, we need to make an explanation for why those Tier 2 feats are considered outliers, especially if Sonic only has one 5-A feat compared to three Tier 2 feats.

I was actually considering making the suggestion:

• Attack Potency: Varies from 5-B to Low 2-C

due to the fact that there are not one, not two, but three Tier 2 feats that were shown in the Sonic universe.

 

[Antvasima]

That is another good point.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Lina that's true actually now that I think about it the three feats stem from: Sonic Genrations, Sonic 06 and Sonic Rush Adventure. Now that I think about it I don't remember a TRUE 5-A feat but we have 3 low 2-C feats I just realized XD

 

[Unclechairman]

I was actually considering making the suggestion:

• Attack Potency: Varies from 5-B to Low 2-C

due to the fact that there are not one, not two, but three Tier 2 feats that were shown in the Sonic universe.

That's also fine with me.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Yeah, I noticed that his Tier 2 feats are starting to out number his Tier 5 ones. "Varies from 5-B to Low 2-C" seems reasonable to me.

 

[Unclechairman]

Reminder that Sonic '06 is non-canon, so Solaris probably shouldn't count.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Unclechairman and Lina Shields seem to make sense.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Well, Solaris can go from Low 2-C to even 2-B or something, so let's discount that. So for Sonic's Low 2-C feats, we have

• Time Eater
• Time Stones
• Jeweled Scepter (possibly?)
• Star Power from Sonic Rush

and one more or something. I think Matt suggested it earlier.

Edit: Adding the "Likely 5-A" statement beside Super Sonic's profile seems fine, as Super Sonic is scaled from Gemerl, Biolizard, and Black Doom or something.

Also, would the tiering for Chaos Emeralds need to be changed as well, since they seem to fluctuate in terms of AP during the course of various Sonic games?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@Lina. The Time Stones from Sonic CD. They can manipulate and warp entire Timelines IIR

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Time_Stone

 

[Unclechairman]

The other 2-C level feat I was thinking of is related to this.

In the ending of Sonic Rush Adventure, Eggman and Eggman Nega use it to harness something called "The Power of the Stars", which is described as the power allowing Sonic and Blaze's worlds to exist as parallel dimensions, and if I recall, is said to act like an anchor stabilizing their existence. It's power is said to surpass both the Chaos and Sol Emeralds.

Sonic and Blaze transform into their respective Super forms to fight and defeat the Egg Wizard which had just absorbed the Power of the Stars.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Time Stones don't manipulate entire timelines. The second Tier 2 feat is the Star Power from Sonic Rush.

I can gather all the Tier 5 feats.

 

[Antvasima]

So, which other characters would have to be adjusted based on this?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Hmm, regarding the Jeweled Scepter, that is only a Low 2-C feat, and only at maximum power.

However, if Sonic and Blaze did defeat Eggman Nega who utilized the Power of the Stars, then Sonic/Blaze both scale to this, I guess. Here is the boss fight btw.


Sonic Rush Adventure (Part 10) - Last Story (Extra Boss Credits)

@Uncle: Your suggestions have been added to the post that I made above.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Through Super Forms, Sonic has fought a number of entities, and there are other Tier 5 feats:

• Perfect Chaos, said to be capable of laying waste to the entire world / destroying it.

• Mother Wisp can create entire planets, and was later powered into a vastly stronger form which Super Sonic defeated.

• Defeated the Finalhazard which was dragging the gigantic Ark Colony into Earth and the collision would have destroyed the planet.

• Defeated Gaia, who is large enough to cause a 5-A feat by waking up

• Fought and defeated the Ifrit, which can destroy entire worlds. This fight does not require the usage of Super Forms.

• The whole Sonic Battle feats that range from High 4-C to 4-A

• Base Sonic / Shadow / Silver can fight Iblis, who easily ravaged the Earth and left it a barren wasteland

• There is this thing , which can decompose matter at the atomic level and transform it into a card. Eggman Nega planed on using it to destroy the world by taking a picture of it.
• Sonic defeated the Eggrobo (Sonic Lost World), which was powered by a planet's life-energy as was leaving the planet barren as a result of the energy absorption. This doesn't require Super Form to beat.
• The Dark Queen can create an "Eternal Kingdom", whatever that means. Excalibur Sonic beat it.

Now for Sonic's High-End feats:

• Super Sonic + Shadow + Silver defeated Solaris. Self-Explanatory
• Super Sonic + Classic Super Sonic defeated the Time Eater. Self-Explanatory.
• Super Sonic + Burning Blaze defeated the Egg Wizard powered by the Power of the Stars, which enables the existence of two parallel dimensions.
• Super Sonic + Burning Blaze defeated the Egg Salamander, and apparently the two Eggmans were causing the two dimensions to merge into one.
• Darkspine Sonic fought and defeated Alf Layla wa-Layla, the creator of the Arabian Knights reality. His dialogue he implies he's some sort of Almighty God creature, but considering how insane he is, and that we don't know the reality's size, I say eh.

Also, it's worth noting that the Egg Wizard's most powerful attack is called "Planet-Busting Laser"

In conclusion, Sonic is overpowered for a cartoon mascot.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew So you agree with the variable tier suggestion?

 

[Unclechairman]

Your list is good, but there are a few things I should point out.

Perfect Chaos is most likely a life-wiper, rather than actually being able to obliterate the planet.

The Ifrit seems much like Iblis, in design, and the fact that it is most likely a life-wiper over time, rather than being able to outright destroy the planet.

For Dark Queen Merlina, I don't think the world of Camelot is planet-sized.

The Chaos and Sol Emeralds were merging the dimensions gradually, not all at once. To represent this, there is actually a counter in both Sonic and Blaze's stories measuring the distortion of dimensions caused by the Emeralds that goes up gradually as the story progresses and caps out at over 90%.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Unclechairman

Merging two space-time continuums over minutes is still Low 2-C or High 3-A. Sonic and Blaze restored it to normal after defeating them.

Ifrit is a definite planet-buster from statements.

Perfect Chaos is among the weakest Final Bosses, which further helps my theory that Sonic's power grows over time. He used to be only Supersonic+ in base, after all.

@Antvasima

Variable or keys, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then.

 

[Unclechairman]

It wasn't over minutes. It was over the course of the entire game. And it was restored by Blaze going back to her home dimension, as the distortion was a passive effect of the emeralds being in the same dimension. Blaze said the Sol Emeralds attracted her world to Sonic's.

Unless we see or are told how the Ifrit destroys the planet, I'd take that with a grain of salt. The fact that it was defeated by the base forms just drives it home.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Base Sonic has defeated other Lifewiping to Planetary threats.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I would say that variable tiering would be the best option, since Sonic already has so many keys already. I think that making separate keys for Super Sonic for different games may complicate Sonic's profile more than it already is.

 

[Antvasima]

@Lina Shields That seems reasonable.

 

[Unclechairman]

Base Sonic has defeated other Lifewiping to Planetary threats.

The only other two that come to my mind are Perfect Chaos (whom he's scaled to) and Ultimate Emerl (apparently a glass cannon).

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I listed the other two. One is only stated to be capable of destroying worlds, while the other is a robot powered by a planet's entire biosphere.

 

[Unclechairman]

I've noted the Eggrobo, but what is the other one? Is it Iblis or the Ifrit?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

And what about or good friend Hyper Sonic?

Also, what about the others Super/Hyper Characters?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

that would be the issue Hyper should have variables to only the low end should be higher considering it's still far superior to the chaos emeralds but the high end is the same due to even being far stronger low 2-C is a wide tier


@Mat at the end of your list top kek summary on sonic XD

 

[AidenBrooks999]

4-A to Low 2-C for Hyper Sonic and others?

And 5-B to Low 2-C for Super Sonic and others?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

4-A to Low 2-C for Hyper Sonic and others?
And 5-B to Low 2-C for Super Sonic and others?

hmm that could work maybe High 4-C for hyper form or we should go with 4-A?