Perfect Chaos upgrade: "Perfection is only found surrounded in Chaos"

[JJSliderman]

Using Eggman as an argument doesn’t really work because Eggman was just as surprised at seeing Super Sonic take no damage from PC.

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean, you can't really bypass Invulnerability with AP

Which is why Chaos should have invulnerability negation due to Otherwordly comedy, just like most beings powered by all 7 emeralds can bypass his invulnerability

 

[JJSliderman]

Which is why Chaos should have invulnerability negation due to Otherwordly comedy, just like most beings powered by all 7 emeralds can bypass his invulnerability

Except that contradicts the game, and regardless this Chaos never ends up damaging Sonic whatsoever, so he didn’t negate any invincible state.

 

[Omegabronic]

Chaos can still stun Sonic (hence why you even have to dodge his attacks in gameplay)

Which would still make Chaos scale as he would be able to completely stop Sonic's momentum and launch him back

and Eggman was just shocked nothing happened when dozens of Chaos hit Sonic at point blank. He could simply be shocked Sonic wasn't stunned, not that he thought Chaos can bypass Sonic's invulnerability.

He literallt says "It’s over" right before the Chaos hit Sonic, aka, yes, he does think they will be able to harm and end/kill Sonic in that blast, no "stun" is ever implied

Using Eggman as an argument doesn’t really work because Eggman was just as surprised at seeing Super Sonic take no damage from PC.

..........yeah, that is the point, even Eggman acknowledges that Chao should be able to harm Super Sonic

 

[JJSliderman]

But he has never seen Chaos harm Super Sonic, why would he be confident in that.

 

[Omegabronic]

Except that contradicts the game

which is then contradicted by the story i showed, in multiple occasions, so not much of a strong point

and regardless this Chaos never ends up damaging Sonic whatsoever, so he didn’t negate any invincible state.

And yet the Guy that is equal to him, has years of experience against Super Sonic, says otherwise and fully believes that Sonic would die from the attacks?

And the narrator itself agrees? And even Sonic himself as well?

Seriously, unless you think all characters, even the omncient Narrator, are real complete idiots, this argument doesn't work

tell me, why Would the situation be "desperate" if Sonic cannot be harmed in any way? Explain that one

 

[Omegabronic]

But he has never seen Chaos harm Super Sonic, why would he be confident in that.

Because he must have saw him doing that, remember, we only see the Perfect Chaos' fight in gameplay, never in universe, so using purely gameplay mechanics as evidence isn't a strong argument here

 

[Theuser789]

Feats>Statement. Sonic takes no damage from Chaos on-screen meanwhile all the arguments of him bypassing invulnerabilities are just suppositions or "could've"s.

 

[Omegabronic]

Feats>Statement.

Only to an extent, specially when said "feat" is purely from Gameplay, which can be innacurate for the lore, hence our page for it

Sonic takes no damage from Chaos on-screen meanwhile all the arguments of him bypassing invulnerabilities are just suppositions or "could've"s.

And outright confirmations as well as nescesities for the narratives to work, don't downplay them

Also don't ignore all other points, even without this, the Chaos clearly scales to Sonic immeasurable in this fight as is powerful enough for Eggman to consider him a useful ally against Sonic, which makes no sense if he is infinitely weaker as you are trying to say he is

 

[JJSliderman]

Because he must have saw him doing that, remember, we only see the Perfect Chaos' fight in gameplay, never in universe, so using purely gameplay mechanics as evidence isn't a strong argument here

Except most of the examples of Super Sonic being harmed used for invulnerability negation are gameplay based.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This really has nothing to do with Chaos having 1-C AP.

 

[Omegabronic]

Except most of the examples of Super Sonic being harmed used for invulnerability negation are gameplay based.

Yeah, which does not negate my point in any way, Otherwordly comedy says PC can harm Super Sonic, factually so, you CANNOT DENY THAT

 

[Omegabronic]

This really has nothing to do with Chaos having 1-C AP.

Yeah, you know what, you are right, will edit the OP to reflect that

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah, which does not negate my point in any way, Otherwordly comedy says PC can harm Super Sonic, factually so, you CANNOT DENY THAT

It says that Super Sonic dodges at the last second, that he would have been destroyed in base, and then immediately cuts to them doing no damage. Show where it says they can damage SS.

 

[Omegabronic]

It says that Super Sonic dodges at the last second, that he would have been destroyed in base, and then immediately cuts to them doing no damage.

No, it cuts to Sonic dodging attacks from Chaos as Eggman says how he isn't done as he shapes the enviroment to attakc him,

Show where it says they can damage SS.

"To add insult to injury, the surrounding buildings transformed into Perfect Chaos one after another under Eggman’s command. Sonic is immediately surrounded.

“What?!”

The next thing he knew, all of their big mouths were full of energy in their jaws, and Sonic was in a desperate situation.

“It’s over!”"

Tell me, if Sonic cannot be hurt, why would the narrator say that the situation is "desperate" for Super Sonic? Why would Eggman say "it's over" if he supposedly knows Sonic couldn't be damaged?


More over........why would Eggman summon a bunch of 2-C's to fight a 1-C? How does that make any sense?

 

[JJSliderman]

Bro Eggman does not know if Super Sonic is complex multi or 6x Uni at any time, that’s just out of universe powerscaling.

And the desperate situation thing can just be a setup for the gotcha twist

 

[Omegabronic]

Bro Eggman does not know if Super Sonic is complex multi or 6x Uni at any time

here he does as both are directly said to be equal to one another, so he would know how powerful Sonic is

, that’s just out of universe powerscaling.

No, it is in Universe, as Eggman here is equal to Super Sonic

And the desperate situation thing can just be a setup for the gotcha twist

Aka, been not for the "twist" in question, Sonic having powernull, said situation would have happened, the twist being Sonic not taking any damage only makes sense if he could be damaged earlier, otherwise rhe twist doesn't work, specially when Eggman doesn't understand why he took no damage to begin with


Also, how does this disprove the other 1-C proofs i gave for Chaos?

 

[JJSliderman]

The full power Emeralds thing is fine, I just disagree with Otherworld being evidence of 1-C

 

[Omegabronic]

The full power Emeralds thing is fine

I see

 

[CloverDragon03]

exept......i gave feats, Chaos' appearance in Otherworldly comedy + Statements of his using the Full Power of the Emeralds and Sonic being unable to hurt Chaos at all, regardless of how powerful he is as Super Sonic, without using a Stat Amp of the arrow of light, that allows him to one shot opponents he is comparable to, plus that is a support point since we have a verbatim statement about Sonic reaching the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Chaos, so overall, no, i am not using "emotion amps" without any feats or on its own, i have like......all or points that are not reliant on that

Using Arrow of Light doesn't automatically make him 1-C, and tons of Chaos clones are effortlessly dealt with by Super Sonic's aura ("it's just hax" is also an objectively wrong rebuttal to this btw it has actual potency to it)

And you keep harping on that "full power" statement that I've already explained to be dubious at best

Plus, as User has said, Chaos can't actually hurt Super Sonic

exept, it is consistent as i have so, SO many other points pointing to it, including a blatant statement

you are not making any sense now, as you are acting as if i only used point 4 of the OP on its own, which yeah, wouldn't be enough, but you are ignoring all other points that either blatantly say he is fighting Chaos at the Full Power of the Emeralds, or Chaos is the one being copied to make a 1-C character 1-C, or he is directly fighting and threatening seriously a tier 1/Full Powered Super Sonic, making this point you have.........simply not be true, there is no "forcing" when i am showing several consistent evidence

All your points are just straight up not good. Idk what you want me to say. User and I have pointed out the issues in them multiple times, and it's frankly getting tiresome going in circles

Yes, you are trying to force consistency here. We scale Super Form level characters by individual feats, not by any other arbitrary metrics. We shouldn't have done this for Lightman and Metal Overlord either. "Full power", for instance, is relative since the "full power" that can be drawn out of the Chaos Emeralds depends on the situation

1 that is not something suggested in this thread, so not matter

2 as you said, he doesn't have enough reasoning on his own, so he doesn't scale for lack of evidence, which is irrelevant for Chaos since he does have enough evidence

What you intend for doesn't matter when there are self-evident ramifications that maybe you didn't initially consider

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

tons of Chaos clones are effortlessly dealt with by Super Sonic's aura ("it's just hax" is also an objectively wrong rebuttal to this btw it has actual potency to it)

Can ya explain this one? This same aura effortlessly dealt with Otherworld Comedy Dark Gaia in the same way.

 

[JJSliderman]

Lightman is at least still potentially 5-D off his own feats, if not then 2-C for him too ig.

 

[Theuser789]

Otherworld is 5-D, yes.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Can ya explain this one? This same aura effortlessly dealt with Otherworld Comedy Dark Gaia in the same way.

Dark Gaia also gets clapped it's that shrimple (this Super Sonic probably upscaled higher than Dark Gaia)

Also Super Sonic was hit by Chaos and was like... completely fine lol

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbf Dark Gaia actually has The End downscaling off statements so, the aura being hax has merit.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tbf Dark Gaia actually has The End downscaling off statements so, the aura being hax has merit.

In what world do these two things correlate?

 

[Omegabronic]

Using Arrow of Light doesn't automatically make him 1-C,

Look, i assume you read the OP to know i specifically wrote that him using the move itself is not the point, Chaos is directly said to be too powerful to harm without that move for sonic, regardless of how powerful Super Sonic makes Sonic be

and tons of Chaos clones are effortlessly dealt with by Super Sonic's aura ("it's just hax" is also an objectively wrong rebuttal to this btw it has actual potency to it)

No it isn't, it is purely hax, Sonic and Eggman explain that Sonic's Aura is reverting and Nullifying Otherwordlyfication back to how the world should be, aka, basically re warping reality, it legit has nothing to do with AP, you not covering the argument itself here doesn't help your point, show me ANY evidence that this was done via AP in any way when the story directly tell us othetwise

Come on, Eggman is equal to Sonic here, and he obiously knows how powerful Chaos is, why would he summon something which be knows even himself can easily destroy by powering? This argument has no basis and makes no logical sense

And you keep harping on that "full power" statement that I've already explained to be dubious at best

No you didn't, your point was about a "Super Sonic's full power" not the one i used that is for the Emerald's, which is far more objective in what it can mean when combined with all other evidence, including how Sonic cannot harm Chaos regardless of how powerful he himself is, you c

Plus, as User has said, Chaos can't actually hurt Super Sonic

and as i said, he can, or at least threat him enough to help Lightman Eggman, nescesitating his scaling in someway

All your points are just straight up not good. Idk what you want me to say. User and I have pointed out the issues in them multiple times, and it's frankly getting tiresome going in circles

I say the same to you

Yes, you are trying to force consistency here.

No, i am applying several feats, statements and showings, there is no "forced" consistency being made here, you are just creating a ghost point to attack

We scale Super Form level characters by individual feats, not by any other arbitrary metrics. We shouldn't have done this for Lightman and Metal Overlord either.

This is a lie you keep telling, there is no thread saying this, no rule, nothing, this point you are hanging on is simply not true

"Full power", for instance, is relative since the "full power" that can be drawn out of the Chaos Emeralds depends on the situation

This is also a lie, and makes no sense, it doesn't say "the Full Power Sonic could draw" it says "The Full Power of the emeralds" no buts or limitations, this is you forcing an interpretation that isn't there at all

What you intend for doesn't matter when there are self-evident ramifications that maybe you didn't initially consider

and said ramifications have NOTHING to do with this thread and are derailing, you know this since i told you already, stop

 

[Theuser789]

Tbf Dark Gaia actually has The End downscaling off statements so, the aura being hax has merit.

I actually agree with the aura hax, too. I just don't think Chaos is ever show to bypass Sonic's invulnerability.

 

[Omegabronic]

Dark Gaia also gets clapped it's that shrimple (this Super Sonic probably upscaled higher than Dark Gaia)

Because of Hax, nothing more, this is what we accept and what it is said, going against what is accepted is against the rules

Also Super Sonic was hit by Chaos and was like... completely fine lol

and you are ignoring the "it was purely hax" point as if it isn't there because? Seriously, Eggman is equal to Sonic and he says that Sonic would die have it not being for his powernull, seriously, stop ignoring the points

 

[CloverDragon03]

Look, i assume you read the OP to know i specifically wrote that him using the move itself is not the point, Chaos is directly said to be too powerful to harm without that move for sonic, regardless of how powerful Super Sonic makes Sonic be

Too powerful to harm with the power Super Sonic currently has, yes. That doesn't mean the absolute 1-C full power, you made that up

No it isn't, it is purely hax, Sonic and Eggman explain that Sonic's Aura is reverting and Nullifying Otherwordlyfication back to how the world should be, aka, basically re warping reality, it legit has nothing to do with AP, you not covering the argument itself here doesn't help your point, show me ANY evidence that this was done via AP in any way when the story directly tell us othetwise

The explosive aura with actual power behind it is only had? No, that's not gonna fly. I hope you realize that it can be both things at once, and even if you wanna go with the hax route, Chaos in the Otherworld Comedy can't do a thing to Super Sonic

Come on, Eggman is equal to Sonic here, and he obiously knows how powerful Chaos is, why would he summon something which be knows even himself can easily destroy by powering? This argument has no basis and makes no logical sense

Eggman doesn't "obviously" know how powerful Chaos is, he can't naturally gauge power levels or anything like that. You made that up and are trying to pass it as a fact

No you didn't, your point was about a "Super Sonic's full power" not the one i used that is for the Emerald's, which is far more objective in what it can mean when combined with all other evidence, including how Sonic cannot harm Chaos regardless of how powerful he himself is, you c

I interpret the "full power of the Emeralds" to just be an indicator of a Super Form level power-up, given that this is always treated as the ultimate state of harnessing their power. So no, I don't think that works here

and as i said, he can, or at least threat him enough to help Lightman Eggman, nescesitating his scaling in someway

But he DOESN'T. Chaos is not enough of a threat which is why he can't hurt Super Sonic or even assist much at all. Eggman can think Chaos would help and simply be wrong, you know?

I say the same to you

Well only one of us is right and sorry to say, it ain't you. I keep explaining things but you're not even being receptive to any level of counterargument simply because it's a counterargument

No, i am applying several feats, statements and showings, there is no "forced" consistency being made here, you are just creating a ghost point to attack

No feats, one shaky statement, and no showings. Yeah, real convincing stuff

This is a lie you keep telling, there is no thread saying this, no rule, nothing, this point you are hanging on is simply not true

Oh so I'm lying now. Real daring today, aren't we? It's called PRECEDENT, Omega. I'm happy to propose codifying it into a rule, but I figured we didn't need to since that's how we've always done Super Form scaling due to the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds

This is also a lie, and makes no sense, it doesn't say "the Full Power Sonic could draw" it says "The Full Power of the emeralds" no buts or limitations, this is you forcing an interpretation that isn't there at all

The full power of the Emeralds can just as easily be referring to the Super Form itself, as I've mentioned earlier

Also you don't need to say your opposition's lying just because you don't like the counters being brought forward

and said ramifications have NOTHING to do with this thread and are derailing, you know this since i told you already, stop

I will not stop. It is not derailing to consider the ramifications of the very thing being proposed. If you feel this strongly about it, you can always report me - getting rid of opposition too

Because of Hax, nothing more, this is what we accept and what it is said, going against what is accepted is against the rules

Something can have both hax and power, I can think of some examples of the top of my head. It doesn't need to be one or the other

and you are ignoring the "it was purely hax" point as if it isn't there because? Seriously, Eggman is equal to Sonic and he says that Sonic would die have it not being for his powernull, seriously, stop ignoring the points

Eggman. Can. Be. Wrong

He thought Chaos would help and was wrong. That simple

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, I'mma step away because I really don't like this discussion as a whole and so many things surrounding it. I just implore those agreeing with the OP to seriously reconsider

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Saying Eggman doesn't know how powerful Perfect Chaos, when his belief is also supported by an omniscient narrator, definitely feels like a reach.

 

[Omegabronic]

Too powerful to harm with the power Super Sonic currently has, yes.

nope, "no matter how powerful Super Sonic is" means "no matter how much power Super Sonic can have"

the "currently has" context is made up by you

That doesn't mean the absolute 1-C full power, you made that up

Nope, as said above, even if he was 1-C he wouldn't be able to harm Chaos, as it says in a way that all the power he could have wouldn't matter

The explosive aura with actual power behind it is only had? No, that's not gonna fly.

nope, but the only thing said to allow Sonic to dissipate the Chaos' and the Eggfield is purely the hax, yes, please don't put words in my mouth, i never said the Aura itself waa only hax

I hope you realize that it can be both things at once

it can, you only need to prove that the power had anything to do with it when the story doesn't say anything about power and attributes what happens purely to hax

and even if you wanna go with the hax route, Chaos in the Otherworld Comedy can't do a thing to Super Sonic

Because he is nullifying what makes all attacks and the Chaos's themselves exist, yes, not because of power

Eggman doesn't "obviously" know how powerful Chaos is, he can't naturally gauge power levels or anything like that

he can when he is using the energy of his own power source to create both the Eggfield and Perfect Chaos

. You made that up and are trying to pass it as a fact

I did not, it is simply logic that you would know how powerful something you created with your own energy is

I interpret the "full power of the Emeralds" to just be an indicator of a Super Form level power-up, given that this is always treated as the ultimate state of harnessing their power. So no, I don't think that works here

you say this......but do you have any example of this terminology being used like that? Or any other support for that hypothesis? Cause i have a ton suggesting they mean literal power

In fact, the only other example we have is in Rush Adventure against the Eggwizard, where it is showed that this wording MEANS power and nothing else, so even by the series itself you are wrong

But he DOESN'T. Chaos is not enough of a threat which is why he can't hurt Super Sonic

which a twist that ia treated as a surprise by the story, that is only explained in said story due to the Nullifycation powers, which makes no sense if Chaos was a pushover to begin with

or even assist much at all.

He did assist, he forces Sonic into a corner where he couldn't do anything to dodge his attacks, heck, he forced Sonic to dodge its attacks

Eggman can think Chaos would help and simply be wrong, you know?

Not when he knows how powerful Chaos is from both past experience and him being the one making them to begin with with his own energy and his own creation, specially when he is equal to Super Sonic here

Well only one of us is right and sorry to say, it ain't you. I keep explaining things but you're not even being receptive to any level of counterargument simply because it's a counterargument

.....legit can say the same to you

No feats, one shaky statement, and no showings. Yeah, real convincing stuff

4 feats, 2 solid statements and 1 showing from another character that needed him

Mocking is not proof of anything, nor does it help your argument

Oh so I'm lying now. Real daring today, aren't we? It's called PRECEDENT, Omega. I'm happy to propose codifying it into a rule, but I figured we didn't need to since that's how we've always done Super Form scaling due to the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds

Thing is, it isn't, and i gave SEVERAL examples here showing that you "precedent" simply isn't true, so unless you make a thread for it, it's not gonna fly

Also, i showed precedent myself that would make Chaos's situation a 1-C Super Sonic moment

The full power of the Emeralds can just as easily be referring to the Super Form itself, as I've mentioned earlier

no it can't, the wording has NEVER been used like that, there is no precendent for this and you are not providing any evidence that would corroborate, no proof, you only showed "your opinion" and that's it, you didn't showed any evidence supporting it.

While i have Metal Overlord copying Chaos to reach 1-C, and Lightman Eggman making Perfect Chaos to fight a tier 1 Sonic/Full Power of the Emeralds one + the precedent of Chaos's situation being the same as several other situations of Sonic using the Full Power of the emeralds

You have only your word as evidence, nothing more

Also you don't need to say your opposition's lying just because you don't like the counters being brought forward

1 I didn't said you were lying, i said the argument was a lie, never meant to call you a liar

2 i didn't do that cause i don't like the argument, i did it cuz i legit saw that it was factually wrong

I will not stop. It is not derailing to consider the ramifications of the very thing being proposed. If you feel this strongly about it, you can always report me - getting rid of opposition too

i won't report you over a manner that can easily be solved between us, we are frienda dude, it doesn't need to get extreme

and it is derailing when......it isn't something i am proposing and it isn't an issue right now, if it happens? I will disagree alongside you, right now this IS derail, as it has nothing to do directly with the proposals

Something can have both hax and power, I can think of some examples of the top of my head. It doesn't need to be one or the other

Again, when have i said otherwise? In the story, it is explicitly only the hax that made Sonic immune and be able to deal with then, nothing else, you have no evidence that power was at play there at all

Eggman. Can. Be. Wrong

He thought Chaos would help and was wrong. That simple

He is the one making them with his Energy, he saw Chaos in Action before to know how powerful he is, and he is equal to Super Sonic here, and the narration and Sonic's action comfirm him, he simply isn't wrong here

 

[Omegabronic]

Can someone give a summary of the arguments?

Given the elaboration of both sides more, have your mind solidified?

I agree with what Theuser and several others said, and thus disagree with the thread.

Given the recent elaborations of both sides, have your opinions changed?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Chaos not bypassing Super Sonic's invulnerabillity is irrelevant. Being able to stun him/push him back is enough to scale. This logic is already consistantly accepted for other Super-level bosses like the Super Egg Robot. And since Super Sonic was explicitely drawing out the full power of the emeralds, this makes it 1-C. With all due respect, it's not rocket science. I don't even know why we're wasting time arguing about what went down in Otherworldly Comedy. The fact that Perfect Chaos was a viable summon for Light Man Eggman, who is 1-C is decent supporting evidence, but OP is valid even without it.

 

[JJSliderman]

I agree the full power statement is enough I suppose. Perfect Chaos may be just a glass cannon in its brain or base Sonic fighting him is an outlier...but then Mephiles fighting on a level comparable to Overlord who would also be 1-C is weird but Generations is just weird for scaling in general.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree the full power statement is enough I suppose. Perfect Chaos may be just a glass cannon in its brain or base Sonic fighting him is an outlier...but then Mephiles fighting on a level comparable to Overlord who would also be 1-C is weird but Generations is just weird for scaling in general.

Generations is indeed really stupid when it comes to power-scalling. Pretty much the only fight that makes sense in it is the Egg Dragoon (and Time Eater obviously). Within the context of a game with scaling that non-sensical, it's not crazy to say Metal Overlord and Perfect Chaos are both outliers.

 

[JJSliderman]

I didn’t end up finishing the thread for it, but Semi-Perfect Dark Gaia also has a downscaling chain to Super Sonic, so even Egg Dragoon has possible shenanigans.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I didn’t end up finishing the thread for it, but Semi-Perfect Dark Gaia also has a downscaling chain to Super Sonic, so even Egg Dragoon has possible shenanigans.

Shit. Well, keep it out of here lol

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Generations is indeed really stupid when it comes to power-scalling. Pretty much the only fight that makes sense in it is the Egg Dragoon (and Time Eater obviously). Within the context of a game with scaling that non-sensical, it's not crazy to say Metal Overlord and Perfect Chaos are both outliers.

I dunno bro, a two-time offense feels more consistent than not to me. It's also not crazy to say that they just got power crept. Besides, the Emeralds supposedly have variable power anyway, so it would make sense for it to just be a real feat.