"Parry these nerfs, Hedgehog!" Early Modern AP Downgrade, LS Changes, OP Parrying, Eggman Additions, & More

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I agree with everything here pretty much. We only really see Base form cast start to perform Super Sonic level feats starting from Generations, so before that they shouldn't be Tier 2

 

[Omegabronic]

It's just Sonic putting his hand up to parry something, if anything I'd question why such a thing is infinitely more durable than his base form.

considering how it can effortlessly repel things that are comparable to Sonic, amplify his perception to make all things comparable to him look like slow motion and it can make him float in the air as well, it isn't just "him putting his hands up" it is Hax, it needs to be else he wouldn't do all these things, this is NOT a good rebuttal as it makes it look like it is JUST a physical thing of him slapping the attacks.....when it clearly is FAR MORE THAN THAT

before you say "oh so because it is hax it is tier 1?" i will answer, NO, that ISN'T THE POINT, you tried to dismiss it being hax at all "it is just Sonic using his hands" to say it COULDN'T do what it did against Knight, i merely proved that you were wrong on that notion, thus you cannot use the fact that "he uses his hands" to invalidate anything here

And if it is, why did he not just use that when the Titans were attacking him before he got the Chaos Emeralds

he can only parry once before they attack again, against Giganto he was grabbed blitzed before he could do anything, against Wyvern he was being chashed down with several homing missiles, hence way too much for him to parry at once and needed to flee and against Knight he never got the chance as the Saw Shield was chasing him down and he preferred to simply flee it rather than risking not being able to react to it for him to Parry

Screams game mechanics to me tbh

the Parry isn't that when even the game recommends it for you to climb Knight, plus the reasoning you gave for it to be "game mechanics" above are simply not good, as it hinges on assuming the Parry isn't hax at all, thus not being able to have this capability no matter what, which is wrong, or on questioning "why didn't Sonic just parry in X moments?" when he couldn't do it without risking getting killed himself

 

[Omegabronic]

I agree with everything here pretty much. We only really see Base form cast start to perform Super Sonic level feats starting from Generations, so before that they shouldn't be Tier 2

they should be via Secret Rings and Black Knight, even in Unleashed they have good statements above Super Form level bosses of the past

 

[CloverDragon03]

Mfw putting your hand up to deflect an attack is now hax. No visual effects are gonna make it that. On some real shit, I think we're starting to lose the plot

The counters are just not good at all, like the responses to what he didn't parry the Titans are such non-arguments besides Giganto grabbing him. Sonic could absolutely parry Wyvern's blasts and Knight's saw shield with the logic being used here, and this is just an attempt at explaining away why he doesn't when he realistically should've if the Parry was actually this strong

My stance remains unchanged. Everything else is fine, but I disagree with the Parry thing

 

[Theuser789]

Mfw putting your hand up to deflect an attack is now hax. No visual effects are gonna make it that. On some real shit, I think we're starting to lose the plot

The counters are just not good at all, like the responses to what he didn't parry the Titans are such non-arguments besides Giganto grabbing him. Sonic could absolutely parry Wyvern's blasts and Knight's saw shield with the logic being used here, and this is just an attempt at explaining away why he doesn't when he realistically should've if the Parry was actually this strong

My stance remains unchanged. Everything else is fine, but I disagree with the Parry thing

Knight's shield is an insta-kill that actually bypasses parry in the game. Also we should note Super Sonic 2 has a "Perfect Parry" that can parry everything, including things the normal parry can't.

 

[Omegabronic]

Mfw putting your hand up to deflect an attack is now hax. No visual effects are gonna make it that. On some real shit, I think we're starting to lose the plot

you completely ignored all the facts i showed that make it be hax? does "putting up your hands" make you deflect things comparable to you by slapping without harmings yourself at all? no, "does putting up your hands" make you see the world in literal slow motion? i would assume not, "does putting up your hands" literally make you float in the air for a good dozens of seconds? no, you cannot reasonably say it isn't hax when IT CLEARLY IS, explain all these effects if there is no hax at all involved whatsoever

The counters are just not good at all, like the responses to what he didn't parry the Titans are such non-arguments besides Giganto grabbing him. Sonic could absolutely parry Wyvern's blasts

several homing missiles, hence way too much for him to parry at once and needed to flee

he couldn't without getting blasted by all the other ones, also this falls flat once he indeed Parry Knight's attacks, someone comparable to Wyvern, with the Game even telling you to do that

and Knight's saw shield with the logic being used here

ignoring the arguments i gave, you do realise this isn't proof that Sonic can't Parry it at all right? him not doing =/= he can't do it, of course, it doesn't prove he can, but he does Parry attacks later on, showing that he indeed can

ngl, i am now questioning why did you even talked about the Titans at all, they do not prove or disprove his capability to Parry their attacks as he never tries and fails to Parry them, in opposite in fact, he is shown being able to do it

Edit: As noted by User, the Shield negates the Parry, so it isn't a good argument to begin with

, and this is just an attempt at explaining away why he doesn't when he realistically should've if the Parry was actually this strong

except he is shown and stated to be able to do it, and realistically Sonic could also just Chaos Control away the Saw Blade and the Missiles, or Teleport himself out of danger with Chaos Control, yet he doesn't, or he could use the Emerald powers to slow them down in time, or create Clones to distract the Titans so he could evade......do we assume he is incapable of using Chaos Control or the Emerald Powers at all just because he didn't used them? no, this doesn't prove he CAN'T, you can't use this as solid proof when it doesn't prove anything

 

[CloverDragon03]

does "putting up your hands" make you deflect things comparable to you by slapping without harmings yourself at all?

Parrying involves deflecting stuff yes, that's how it works

no, "does putting up your hands" make you see the world in literal slow motion? i would assume not

This is a game mechanic

i would assume not, "does putting up your hands" literally make you float in the air for a good dozens of seconds? no, you cannot reasonably say it isn't hax when IT CLEARLY IS, explain all these effects if there is no hax at all involved whatsoever

This is also a game mechanic

Typing in all caps doesn't make your point any better btw, honestly I'd say User bringing up how the saw blade can bypass the parry is a better counterargument than anything here. Not everything needs to be an ability or a stat amp or something like that

 

[Omegabronic]

Parrying involves deflecting stuff yes, that's how it works

IRL Parrying works by not stopping the attack, but re-directing the attack........Sonic literally just slaps the attacks back, no directing, he just hits them, and somehow he take no damages even tho the attacks are comparable to him, no Parry IRL can reflect an attack or projectile back, specially if they are strong enough to hurt you, trying to slap a punch or a baseball being launched at your face will just hurt you

also it is accepted in the profile that it gets him "far higher" durability with the parry, so you can't use this argument without going against what is accepted, unless you remove it of course, but that would need another thread of its own

This is a game mechanic

Accepted in the profile as a canon ability(literal pop up saying it does that)

This is also a game mechanic

Accepted in the profile as a canon ability

before you say "can't use ourselves as proof" first give me a reason why said abilities are not canon at all and purely gameplay mechanics, until you do that, saying "Gameplay" without showing any proof is not a good point when we literally see the Parry doing Hax stuff

so if you don't like that? make a thread to remove the haxes, until then, we treat them as canon abilities/haxes and that the Parry has, until then, you need to comply with them being abilities it has

Typing in all caps doesn't make your point any better btw,

neither is pointing this outs, as it doesn't address the arguments being made, i put in all caps to highlight it, nothing else

honestly I'd say User bringing up how the saw blade can bypass the parry is a better counterargument than anything here.

it really isn't, as you didn't address the fact that the Titans do not prove that the parry doesn't work on them

Not everything needs to be an ability or a stat amp or something like that

........this REALLY isn't a good point, sure, not everything needs to be an ability......but when something is shown to be a certain ability, we can say for certain it is said ability, seriously don't know what you could possibly mean by this in this context "it shows slowing down Sonic's perception and making him levitate, but it is self perception manip or levitation, why? ......because it doesn't need to be even tho it is shown to be that" this wouldn't fly anywhere else, and it won't here

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah I suppose Sonic putting his hand up and being way more durable is weird.
But then Sonic also survived getting crushed and tossed into a mountain by Giganto without the parry, so maybe the extra 2% defense is enough for him to overcome it ; )

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah I suppose Sonic putting his hand up and being way more durable is weird.

And him putting his hands up and being able to float, reflect all attacks and slow down his own perception of time isn't?

Seriously. What is this argument?

But then Sonic also survived getting crushed and tossed into a mountain by Giganto without the parry, so maybe the extra 2% defense is enough for him to overcome it ; )

......i would apreciate tonning down the jokes, else people will take them seriously, like......2% isn't enough for you to be completely unharmed by attacks that can hurt you normally

 

[CloverDragon03]

Let's be so fr right now, this isn't some magical ability. It's a regular parry with nothing special about it. An in-game notification telling you about a game mechanic doesn't make it any more special in-universe, and I find it ridiculous to make it appear more special than it actually is

JJ's got it right, this is just putting your hands up to parry a move, and I'm supposed to believe that this inexplicably makes Sonic infinitely more durable. Forgive me for not being convinced, I guess. Thinking about it too, Sonic got clapped by Knight's saw shield even with Parry so it makes no sense to give him any scaling to Knight with it

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah clover makes sense to me here when it comes to the parrying

 

[JJSliderman]

Well I guess the alternative is that Sonic is moving so fast he just completely outpaced the Titans’ attack to get out of the way, and scaling to the Titans’ speed was already rejected.

 

[Omegabronic]

Let's be so fr right now, this isn't some magical ability. It's a regular parry with nothing special about it.

Yeah clover makes sense to me here when it comes to the parrying

• Greater Attack Reflection & Self-Perception Amplification (Through his Parry, which slows things to a crawl without affecting Sonic himself[198] should he parry an attack[198] and can reflect energy-based projectiles back at his opponent)

From Sonic's profile and as i said earlier:

considering how it can effortlessly repel things that are comparable to Sonic, amplify his perception to make all things comparable to him look like slow motion and it can make him float in the air as well, it isn't just "him putting his hands up" it is Hax, it needs to be else he wouldn't do all these things

So no Clover, IT ISN'T STANDARD it is very much a supernatural ability through and through, accepted as such in Sonic's profile and.......clearly is given what we see in game, you cannot deny this as it is a fact that can be easily observed by simply using it in Frontiers

An in-game notification telling you about a game mechanic doesn't make it any more special in-universe

it isn't a game mechanic, it is an intrinsically aspect of the Parry, being able to reflect any attack without giving harm to Sonic at all

, and I find it ridiculous to make it appear more special than it actually is

what i find it ridiculous is ignoring clear cut showings of it, as well and saying it has nothing of special about it when it clearly does, it is superrnatural/"magical" hax, you gave no good counter to the clear examples showing its Supernatural aspects

JJ's got it right, this is just putting your hands up to parry a move

explain how it can slow down perception to the point of seeing comparable opponents in slow motion and make Sonic straight up float then

, and I'm supposed to believe that this inexplicably makes Sonic infinitely more durable.

just as it inexplicably makes him float in the air and slow down its perception, it is already supernatural and trying to say "no" to something we see it do on screen because you find it "weird" is nothing but an argument of disbelief and not a valid counter to it, it has a feat and a statement of it doing just that, so we must give it just that

Thinking about it too, Sonic got clapped by Knight's saw shield even with Parry so it makes no sense to give him any scaling to Knight with it

and yet he can reflected his other attacks later, this is nothing more than a feat for the Saw Shield negating attacking reflection, as Sonic can reflect the other attacks the Knight has

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with Omega. Once I have the time, I'll edit the "Game mechanics" argument into the OP. I did initially consider it, but figured ot was unecessary since the post that initially went over this revision already debunked this argument in my eyes. The first time, it was rejected pretty much purely because there was no canon precedant for base forms shielding themselves from 1-C damage, whereas we now do.

Also, keep in mind that I'm pushing for the parry's attack reflection to be up to "at most 1-C".

And the "Why don't we see Sonic use it against the Titans in cutscenes?" argument is almost equivalant to saying "Why doesn't Sonic Chaos Control on top of the Titans to retrive their Chaos Emerald when it would be so much easier than climbing them? Clearly Sonic can't use Chaos Control."

 

[CloverDragon03]

The only actual evidence of this being an in-universe thing rather than a game mechanic is just "it's on the profile"

Like, okay? It shouldn't be there. The profile can be wrong

 

[JJSliderman]

The parry is an ability Sonic has, it should absolutely be there.
The problem is just the outlier argument which, eh there’s no real way around that, either you ignore that or you don’t.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with this 100%

 

[Omegabronic]

The only actual evidence of this being an in-universe thing rather than a game mechanic is just "it's on the profile"
Like, okay? It shouldn't be there. The profile can be wrong

No? I put the profile to show it is accepted, the proof is that we on screen see it doing the haxes, with nothing ever contradicting the fact that it has special abilities

 

[CloverDragon03]

The parry is an ability Sonic has, it should absolutely be there.
The problem is just the outlier argument which, eh there’s no real way around that, either you ignore that or you don’t.

I mainly mean in terms of the kinds of things that have been argued about it, like... Perception Manipulation and Levitation. I don't doubt Sonic can parry stuff but in-universe he's never shown parrying anything of that level of potency. In fact, the Knight thing is inconsistent considering his saw shield claps up Sonic regardless

 

[CloverDragon03]

(Talked with Omega about this subject further so he knows where I'm at here, I will take my leave now because I got nothing else to say and my vote doesn't count anyways, if the Parry thing passes I'm not losing sleep over it lol)

 

[Omegabronic]

The shield also negate Rings, so it would simply have some Power Null to it, as Rings definitely work to protect Sonic against the Titans as shown numerous times

(Sorry to respond Clover, i didn't saw your message, will not ping yoh again)

 

[Nierre]

Yeah I agree with Omega n the OP

 

[Theuser789]

I am actually starting to disagree on the Parry thing, but not because of gameplay mechanics but the lack of feats. Sonic can't actually Parry Giganto (outside of the back lasers that base Sonic tanks) and Wyvern. He can't Parry Knight's shield, either. That just leaves Knight's spikes but Base Sonic can also tank those, so I am not sure if Parry actually scales to the Titans physicals.

 

[JJSliderman]

I am actually starting to disagree on the Parry thing, but not because of gameplay mechanics but the lack of feats. Sonic can't actually Parry Giganto (outside of the back lasers that base Sonic tanks) and Wyvern. He can't Parry Knight's shield, either. That just leaves Knight's spikes but Base Sonic can also tank those, so I am not sure if Parry actually scales to the Titans physicals.

Base Sonic only tanks it with rings, which are already accepted as damage transfer on that level.

 

[OrangeFR]

Agree with everything except parry stuff

 

[Theuser789]

Base Sonic only tanks it with rings, which are already accepted as damage transfer on that level.

Base Sonic tanks everything in the game with Rings. We can't use them to determined who scales or not because otherwise all of the robots could be exponentially stronger than Sonic.

 

[Omegabronic]

Base Sonic tanks everything in the game with Rings. We can't use them to determined who scales or not because otherwise all of the robots could be exponentially stronger than Sonic.

what? no? Rings working on comparable AP to the user and not only only those far stronger does not make anyone who makes him drop rings "exponentially stronger", what are you even on about? Shadow in Sonic Prime is straight up said to be comparable to Sonic, and he can get him to drop rings

 

[Theuser789]

Except most Frontiers bots have no real feats outside of making Sonic drop rings, so they could be stronger without us knowing.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Except most Frontiers bots have no real feats outside of making Sonic drop rings, so they could be stronger without us knowing.

Sonic can harm them and they don't explode from their own attacks, so no.

 

[Omegabronic]

Except most Frontiers bots have no real feats outside of making Sonic drop rings, so they could be stronger without us knowing.

they do tho? they can survive Sonic's attacks, and them being able to make him drop rings shows that they can dish out damage on him...........stronger? like, 1-C stronger? no, that is you being a little silly, and honestly? i don't see the argument you are trying to make here, of course Sonic's rings protect him from damage, him dropping against Enemies just proves that they can harm him, nothing more

Sonic can harm them and they don't explode from their own attacks, so no.

this too

 

[Theuser789]

I see your points, but I still disagree since you can only Parry Knight's shockwaves and that's it. I think the hand hitting Sonic is also a insta-kill, as well.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah I think it’s prolly an outlier, Base Sonic outrunning the Titans is more consistent and that still didn’t cut it.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I see your points, but I still disagree since you can only Parry Knight's shockwaves and that's it.

Not shockwaves. Spikes.

I think the hand hitting Sonic is also a insta-kill, as well.

You think? Someone with a copy of Frontiers should check. I'm away rn, and don't have my Switch. If this is true, then I probably concede.

 

[JJSliderman]

You think? Someone with a copy of Frontiers should check. I'm away rn, and don't have my Switch. If this is true, then I probably concede.

Might do it when I get home

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Bump

 

[Peptocoptr27]

bump

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I think the 2-C downgrade to High 3-A for the early characters is alright, though I think the statements are worth some salt but can see the vagueness of it. The Lifting Strength change is fine, and the abilities seem okay as well.

As for the Perry... I'm unsure. Logically the perry mechanic has to be more than just Sonic putting his hand out to deflect otherwise that's literally saying he's naturally stronger than the object he deflect but if you don't perry it, you get hurt or effected. However, my main concern is what he can and can't perry. If he gets rocked consistently and can't perry much of their stuff with the exception of one or two things I'd argue it's more outlier issue unless those other attacks are special.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I think the 2-C downgrade to High 3-A for the early characters is alright, though I think the statements are worth some salt but can see the vagueness of it.

So would you have been in favor of "possibly 2-C" for JUST the 06 base cast? I may not be in favor of it, but feel free to defend your stance if you are.

The Lifting Strength change is fine, and the abilities seem okay as well.

As for the Perry... I'm unsure. Logically the perry mechanic has to be more than just Sonic putting his hand out to deflect otherwise that's literally saying he's naturally stronger than the object he deflect but if you don't perry it, you get hurt or effected. However, my main concern is what he can and can't perry. If he gets rocked consistently and can't perry much of their stuff with the exception of one or two things I'd argue it's more outlier issue unless those other attacks are special.

I'm starting the see the issue with the parry. I don't think Clover's arguments against it were very good, but I've come to realize that the only Titan attacks Sonic is incentivized to parry in-game are pretty casual ones. Especially the stone spikes sent out by Knight, which may ot even scale to Knight's true AP. If Sonic can't parry Knight's hand as it crashes to the ground, then I'm dropping this specific addition for sure. That still needs to be checked though.

Thanks Griffin

 

[ShakeResounding]

If Sonic can't parry Knight's hand as it crashes to the ground, then I'm dropping this specific addition for sure. That still needs to be checked though.

Iirc it's a death, like being stepped on by Giganto