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Sonic (Game): Chaos Emeralds upgrade

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Davy0

Davy0

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The chaos emeralds have the ability to turn a characters "thoughts into power". This single comment is suspect to many people, because it doesn't seem like anything of significant importance, but in fact it is. The Chaos Emeralds are often called an unlimited source of energy (of course that is probably vast hyperbole, as everything has a limit), however, in this case, it points to something far higher than what should be thought as limited to only "Planet Level" in any sense.

At least two times, have the Emeralds power been used to fight against opponents far higher than Planet Level, with Sonic using the Super Forms or even the Chaos Emeralds powering three characters at once to be capable of taking on foes such as Solaris, or powering a literally WEAKER Sonic (Classic) to fight a character that literally can warp and break time to its whim, and disassemble and scatter the Universe's time line into itty bitty pieces. One conclusion.

The Chaos Emeralds don't just give you power, they give you as much power as you need to defeat your foes, As I stated before, two beings of vast power were defeated by this. Not only that, the Chaos Emeralds gave the Hedgehogs the ability to defeat the concepts of the "Past, Present and Future", which means that it can possibly give hax to the wielder of the Emeralds, which isn't outlandish as Chaos Energy has been known to manipulate time and space itself (Chaos Control, anyone).

So, who might agree with this?
 
"The Chaos Emeralds don't just give you power, they give you as much power as you need to defeat your foes"

Uhhhhhh. Not sure anyone can agree with that logic due to those words. Just wanna warn you about that.
 
No because even that has a limit, and I stated that. However, throwing off the fact that the characters have withstand the powers of Universe Busters shouldn't be said as an outlier. As they've shown the ability to do so twice. And with a character that should be weaker and less experienced than Sonic is (his younger self) no less. And he was. There are limits to it, of course, but throwing away the fact that they've withstood these attacks, and fought these beings is also fallacy.
 
What exactly do you wish to change?
 
I wish to change the power of the Super forms to being variable. To change the Chaos Emeralds as a source to being Universe Level (variably so, as they have literally been used to defeat characters far superior to just LPL or Star Level). The characters have also withstood those attacks, and the way that it's documented now is trying to imply that the characters are weaker just because we don't think they should be capable of being that power. But when you look at it from a changed angle, outside of the box and use the information given by characters in the series, it makes greater sense.
 
SomebodyData said:
"The Chaos Emeralds don't just give you power, they give you as much power as you need to defeat your foes" Uhhhhhh. Not sure anyone can agree with that logic due to those words. Just wanna warn you about that.
Click to expand...
To both you and Allan Saiyan. I understand your skepticism, but really read what I stated. The Chaos Emeralds are sentient, they activate their powers depending on the wishes of the users. So when done, they give them power to help them, it doesn't have to be all the power they have, as we've seen the state they become when you drain their powers, for example. But what it could in fact be is that they always had this capacity, as it has been shown at least twice that it has, and to two (Time Eater) or three beings (Solaris) at once. Both of them superior to Universe Busting at the very least.
 
Lol I never said anything about it being NLf or etc, I just said that the statement makes it sounds rather NLFly while the topic isn't exactly.

This is under the assumption you mean that the Emeralds are Universe level but only give the power porportinate to the wish right?
 
Yeah, that's right. So by whatever means, the Chaos Emerald can sense the threat of the being that the user is going to fight against, and give enough power to fight them. That does not mean that the Chaos Emeralds necessarily HAVE the power to do so, which is why I stated that in cases like Solaris who was still incapable of being destroyed even after such a thing, the emeralds powers have limits, which seem to be at Universe Level+ from the battle that was undertaken against Time Eater. Which makes even more sense, as again Classic was capable of fighting against a being of that magnitude even though he should not have the ability to do such a thing as Sonic had grown powerful enough to defeat a character such as Perfect Chaos on his own.
 
I am uncertain. I would like to get more community input about this.
 
What I would reccomend is that you give the Emerald amped Sonic a Universal ranking (Or the highest tier being he has faced whilst using it via powerscaling) so that you can avoid any suspicions of NLF.

By having "Variable" as a ranking for Sonic would be somewhat faulty as it could mean he can take on 2-B's 1-C's or even much higher tiered beings when he has only faced 2-C opponents while using them.
 
So you suggest something like: "Variable. Up to Low 2-C, due to defeating Solaris"?
 
What?

I'm sorry, but why exactly do you need a variable Tier for the character's Super forms?

Yes, they turn a "Character's thoughts into power", but as far as feats go, they are depicted as being limited in 99% of the time.

Look at every enemy that was defeated with Super forms across the series.

Perfect Cell, the Biolizard, Metal Overlord, Dark Gaia, Devil Doom, most endgame Eggman Machines.

The best feat any of those ever depicted was Large Planet level, and that is generally consistent with most of the series.

Solaris and Time Eater are the only Tier 2 characters of the Sonic Games, and the later is a Glass Canon in his profile.

We can't simply say "Variable Tier" because of Solaris. Specially since the Chaos Emeralds' power are surpassed by both the Master Emerald and the Super Emeralds, and they have been dried of their power before.
 
I think that Matthew seems to make sense.
 
Yes I completely agree I have no clue why this wasn't changed already in the past the hedgehogf's Super forms are variable due to the nature of the Chaos Emeralds and the pages should go with the High End to avoid any NLF's
 
Okay. So should we close this thread?
 
Davy0 told me that he wants to get the chance to reply, so I reopened the thread for the moment. I don't think that his suggestion will go through however.
 
Hop would like to share his input with the thread being opened again.

Firstly, while the idea that the Chaos Emeralds do grant a user tremendous power, and likely to no real limit (stamina/energy wise at least) to their capabilities, the fact still stands most users haven't always gone and defeated high tier characters. Or how in general, most characters that use the Chaos Emeralds don't go too much beyond what is needed to win. If it was necessary, all users would be Tier 2 and instantly crush their opponents.

And even if this came down to "other users that aren't experienced with the Emeralds" are not utilizing them to their fullest extent, is either a fault on a writer's part, or an outlier in the cases it greatly exceeds what is necessary to "turn thoughts into power".

While the idea and support for that conclusion is indeed solid, Hop thinks a majority of instances seem to only allow what the user should responsibly, or logically be able to handle in order to win the day (like in the case with Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2, or with other characters in the comimc series). And that indicates that although they might have a great amount of power to contribute to a user, it would be entirely fallicious to assume that they are with so few instances occuring.
 
i do think it varies in its own really (i just remembered the thought into power statement but never took it seriously) i don't want to abuse NLF but they did survive solaris even though it was rectonned apparently they wanted to beat solaris it became possible (seems to be like Saint Seiya burn their cosmos and miracles happen lol now i can see some similairites XD) but mat has a point most of these opponents are 5-B to 5-A but i like to propose that at their highest low 2-C for fighting solaris but note this was at their peak while consistently super form is Planet level how about that?
 
LoudCloud said:
Didn't Sonic barely survive the fight with Dark Gaia?
Click to expand...
You're forgetting that DarkGaia and Light Gaia are concepts of Night and Day, respectively, so they can't actually be killed, only be beaten into submission. Dark Gaia may be superior to what he seems, just to an unknown extent.

Thank you, Ant.

What I do know is that the characters have already shown twice that they can defeat foes far higher than just Planet Level, and it's a fallacy to keep considering them only Planet Level due to defeating more than just Solaris. Their limits seem to be at universe level. All we need to do is put Varies from Planet Level to Universe Level scaling and then make sure to place links to the profiles of Solaris and Time Eater who are far superior to Planet Level, easily.

However, overall with the fact that Chaos Emeralds are sentient, and are known for acting on miracles (which was stated by Blaze the Cat, which is where you get the "thoughts into power" statement as well).

So here's basically what I'm saying. The Chaos Emeralds are possibly on par with Universe Level+ yet astronomically higher than just Planet Level. So in understanding this, the characters would gain power BETWEEN those two Tiers, no higher no lower. Which is why I stated make it varied. But it's whatever you wish it to be, I just wanted to provide evidence as to why I think the "Thoughts into Powers" comment holds credence. But using Dark Gaia who's a concept of Night isn't very good, as Night literally cannot be "destroyed" it can only exist for as long as the Universe exists.
 
"The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power... Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos."- Tikal's prayer. This implies at the very least that the Chaos Emeralds are indeed a power source of a varying level of power depending on the thoughts of the user a.k.a the power of their "heart".
 
VenomElite said:
"The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power... Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos."- Tikal's prayer. This implies at the very least that the Chaos Emeralds are indeed a power source of a varying level of power depending on the thoughts of the user a.k.a the power of their "heart".
Click to expand...
I think that many people don´t understand the usage of the Emeralds, they don´t have a limit, but that doesn´t means that Sonic, Shadow and Knux are basicly Gods, the Emeralds give you a boost and that boost haven´t demostraited a limit, possibly will never see that limit but the Highest feat (Defeat Solaris) would be a important demostraition of power, take that as a Universe feat but not as a Multiverse or even High Complex, don´t take expeculations as, Sonic can have more than that power cus the Chaos Energy, and don´t miss understand the Super Forms as a Super Saiyan transformation, the Super forms are a plataform tou use the Chaos Energy the much as your Heart wants, thats why Hyper form was retconned, and no, Solaris wasn´t Retconned.
 
They obviously have limits. That's what I'm saying. They defeated Solaris, but they did not kill it. That shows an obvious lack of killing potential, the strongest thing they've been shown completely beating is Time Eater, so that's how high the strongest showings of the Chaos Emeralds should scale.

The reason why I said that the Super Forms should be variables of said power is because each character who has the ability to summon the power of the Chaos Emeralds (this extends to the Sol Emeralds as they are but a different version of the Chaos Emeralds in another reality) should have the potential for that strength dependent on that 'miracle'.

But do not say that the Emeralds have unlimited energy, that is a lie and a baseless statement, that truly only comes from being True Infinity, and the Chaos Emeralds have shown limits. Whoever states this, I am not to be grouped with them. What I am saying is that the Low-End of the Chaos Emerald is Planet Level, the high-end is Universe Level+. Those are my words.


Edit: Added to the second paragraph.
 
So, what do the rest of the staff think?
 
Hop is not staff, but wishes to input on Davy's question.

While Hop is in favor of possibily shifting the capabilities of the Emeralds from Planet level to Universe level (when taking all canon incarnations of them into account), my previous statements are one I still stand behind.

Maybe we can say that only special users or instances are they capable of this, and normally they're some other tier. So for Sonic, it could potentially be high-end Universe level. Other than that, I can't think of many situations where they have gone that far.
 
SoyHop said:
Hop is not staff, but wishes to input on Davy's question.
While Hop is in favor of possibily shifting the capabilities of the Emeralds from Planet level to Universe level (when taking all canon incarnations of them into account), my previous statements are one I still stand behind.

Maybe we can say that only special users or instances are they capable of this, and normally they're some other tier. So for Sonic, it could potentially be high-end Universe level. Other than that, I can't think of many situations where they have gone that far.
Click to expand...
But that isn't how the Chaos Emeralds work, special users are already chosen, because the number of people who can activate Super Forms is already limited in the Sonic Universe. Then you're forgetting that SHADOW and SILVER also fought against someone the likes of Solaris and were capable of enduring and damaging it. The Chaos Emeralds turn a person's thoughts into power, not a SPECIAL USERS thoughts into power, that's not how they work. Sonic, Shadow, Silver, Knuckles (possibly Tails), Blaze, and anyone else who has the ability to use Super Forms should be capable of gaining these upgrades, you have to stop looking at Sonic as a special case, because aside from Tails, each one of the characters I just named, are capable of fighting on equal footing with Sonic.
 
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