Perfect Chaos upgrade: "Perfection is only found surrounded in Chaos"

[Lou_change]

But it obviously would be PC for it to be given so much emphasis, specially since something would need to make MO go to Super Levels of power, copying a bunch of base forms obviously wouldn't work

I mean he is the only one copied who wasn't at the scene, but fair point.

no, Eggman was talking about MO, not MM, hence why he specified the Emeralds as their only chance and all of the teams needed to buy time for team Sonic to use said emeralds

he said metal sonic is invincible before metal sonic became MO.

Did you not saw all the people in station square cheering Sonic on? That's "we" as Tails says the phrase in response to the people cheering Sonic on, this is a basic narrative thing

I didn't see anyone besides two hedgehogs, an echidna, a fox, and a bird. Given they are in the middle of a flooded city and the cheering happens after the music starts I assumed it was part of the song.

Nope, outside the fact that Sonic literally says "this Chaos has NOTHING", aka no heart nor hate.......are you even reading what you are quoting?

I am pretty sure that is referring to the lack of heart only

it is Sonic explaining that while the Chaos of back them had "hate" he still had heart, as in, one can have both, as "heart" isbused interchangeably with Emotions for the Chaos Emeralds, so the fake Chaos not having heart makes it so that he has no hate automatically

I mean one even if Perfect Chaos had heart it was implied he only used hatred and anger to fuel his transformation. So other emotions are not really relevant.

Two, why would sonic use 'but' if he intended to say emotions? "Chaos may have had ‘hatred’ at the time, but he had emotions." There is no contrast created that requires a 'but'. Heart was probably used as a place holder for positive emotions.

Three, why would he make a distinction if it didn't matter. If the heart part is all that matters why did he talk about hatred.

given the above, you can't blame my suspicion, you literally quoted Sonic saying that the fake Chaos has "nothing" when talking about hate and heart, yet you somehow says that it does have?

I feel the statement is open to interpretation as shown by previous comments. To me it sounds more like the clone had hatred like the real thing, but lacked the other emotions.

from himself? He can go to Full Power on his own, like how we can see in Frontiers for all bosses and in Sonic Heroes

The Emeralds turns thoughta into power, he can literally power up further by just thinking, this has been accepted for a very good while now

Thats how the empowerment works? Why doesn't he just do against the 2-C enemies
i

Also don't try to deflect, we have given both a comparison and a specific magntude of power AS YOU ASKED FOR ME TO GIVE, and yet now when i point that out you completely ignore it? That doesn't sound right, now does it?

I mean you did that's why I questioned the logic behind those things. To your credit I haven't been able to provide an argument besides semantics and nothing I have said necessarily means you're wrong. Honestly I disagree mostly because the generations thing it seems weird to ignore as it previously represented one of the most obvious examples of how sonic has gotten stronger over time. Especially as the argument given for it not scaling involves an illusionary copy instead of the time base sonic actually fought the real Chaos.

......this what? Tier 4 comes from individual emeralds, which you consided and said "my bad" for even bringing it up......what about it matters here? what are you even arguing for at this point? You are all over the place

You asked why I didn't respond not why I didn't argue with you about it.

 

[Omegabronic]

he said metal sonic is invincible before metal sonic became MO.

No, he said it as he is transforming into MO, thus he is talking about MO, the form Metal turns into shortly after

I didn't see anyone besides two hedgehogs, an echidna, a fox, and a bird. Given they are in the middle of a flooded city and the cheering happens after the music starts I assumed it was part of the song.

Ok, but you are wrong on this notion, they are there, they are even dubbed

I am pretty sure that is referring to the lack of heart only

Sonic says "this Chaos has nothing" after talking about what the OG chaos had......therefore he is saying this Chaos doesn't have what the OG Chaos has, hate and heart

I mean one even if Perfect Chaos had heart it was implied he only used hatred and anger to fuel his transformation. So other emotions are not really relevant.

........cool? Why are you making a point that has nothing to do with the topic at all and is thus irrelevant?

Two, why would sonic use 'but' if he intended to say emotions? "Chaos may have had ‘hatred’ at the time, but he had emotions." There is no contrast created that requires a 'but'. Heart was probably used as a place holder for positive emotions.

To explain that Heart and Hate are not exclussive?

Three, why would he make a distinction if it didn't matter. If the heart part is all that matters why did he talk about hatred.

cause he was explaining why one is not excluding the other

Also, why this tangent when he says the clone Chaos has "nothing" thus not having hate either? More over......why argue if at most this means the clone is equal, thus making the argument for him to be 1-C work either way?

I feel the statement is open to interpretation as shown by previous comments. To me it sounds more like the clone had hatred like the real thing, but lacked the other emotions.

And it really ism't as Sonic directly says it has "nothing" in the same phrase, making it factual that it didn't had hate

As i said above.....you are making a tangent on nothing as Chaos would still be 1-C either way

Thats how the empowerment works?

are you really that out of the loop? That is the basis for why their tier varries to begin with

Why doesn't he just do against the 2-C enemies

I mean, we have no reason to assume he doesn't, we just don't have evidence in most enemies that they are fighting a Sonic growing to 1-C levels like Perfect Chaos has

I mean you did that's why I questioned the logic behind those things.

And yet now you don't respond to my explanation, thus i can assume you conceded on them?

To your credit I haven't been able to provide an argument besides semantics and nothing I have said necessarily means you're wrong.

.......so you concede that you don't really have argument, knew this, and yet you still argued just to stonewall the thread?............are you serious right now? You can see why i thought you trolling right?

Honestly I disagree mostly because the generations thing it seems weird to ignore as it previously represented one of the most obvious examples of how sonic has gotten stronger over time. Especially as the argument given for it not scaling involves an illusionary copy instead of the time base sonic actually fought the real Chaos.

1 it isn't "illusion" it is Eggman warping reality

2 said copy would have at most the same power as the original, making it work either way

3 you cannot ignore the blatant statements and showings Chaos has, Sonic's fight is an outlier, simple as that

Now please, if you will, as you said, "use semantics and not real arguments that do not disprove anything" just agree to disagree and stop, saves us both time

 

[Planck69]

Can someone give a summary of the arguments?

 

[Omegabronic]

Can someone give a summary of the arguments?

For the points in favor of the OP most of the relevant ones are in said OP including some rebuttals of the counterpoints brought up against the thread

In sumarry of the counter points, these answers of pretty much cover them

Overall, a sentiment said by all that disagreed with the thread so far is that PC being 1-C would make peoplr start to argur for Base Sonic to be 1-C.....even tho the OP uses a scan saying how PC one shots and blitzes Base Modern Sonic casually, so that isn't really a problem

 

[Theuser789]

Can someone give a summary of the arguments?

In favor:

Hello y'all, here i am going to prove why Perfect Chaos should scale to the full power of the Chaos Emeralds, as we currently only rate him to 2-C based around him fighting a "baseline" Super Sonic......well, today i will show why Super Sonic at that time WASN'T at baseline power, but rather fighting at his peak, aka using the Full power that the Chaos Emeralds can produce. here we golink for the translation we use for Otherworldly comedy storyline, which will be a main point later on, by WindiiGitlord

note1: Sonic Channel is currently accepted as a primary source/Primary Canon, and the Manual for Sonic Adventure itself would also count as a primary soruce for obvious reasons

Main arguments​

1 Stated blatantly to have fought Sonic while the latter was using the Full/Maximum power of the emeralds​

This is the most straight forward point, in the Sonic Channel Bio it is said that Super Sonic used the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Perfect Chaos (Translations done by Windii, which i got extra confirmation from @Executor_N0 that it is accurate). aka the emeralds were at their full power

2 No matter how much power Sonic gets from the Emeralds, he straight up can't harm him in anyway unless he uses a charged attack, the arrow of light​

It is said that Chaos in this state is way too powerful for Super Sonic to harm "No matter how powerful" he is, aka, no matter how much power Sonic draws from the Emeralds, Chaos is simply too durable for him to harm at all with his normal attacks, so he should be > Chaos Emeralds' Full Power since not even that would be enough to harm him without the extra stats amp of a charged attack

note2: For this point, the point isn't him using the Arrow of light, but that it is verbatim stated that Chaos is too powerful to be harmed by Super Sonic, NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL HE IS, therefore, no matter how much Sonic powers up, be it his minimal or Full power, Chaos is simply too superior for Sonic to be able to harm him

3 His data is what made Metal Overlord the threat he is​

The way Metal Overlord, accepted as 1-C currently, achieved his power was via copying Perfect Chaos' data. which combined with the fact that it also cannot be harmed at all by Super Sonic unless he uses a charged combined attack with Tails and Knuckles + Eggman saying that even with the Emeralds they will need a miracle to beat him, makes it clear that they are fighting a Peak Super Form opponent. hence why they straight up cannot harm him, which wouldn't happen if they could simply power up further to do so

4 Similar situation to other confirmed Full Power Super Sonic situations​

To power up the Chaos Emeralds for his final fight with Perfect Chaos, Sonic channeled his emotions/"heart" with not only his friends, but all civilians of Station Square, which is a similar situations to other accepted Full Power Super Sonic opponents, like Solaris, who the Emeralds channeled the power of all present to make him go Super, and Light-Man Eggman, who Sonic had the Emeralds charge up with all the "heart" and past essences of all his friends present as well:

"As it approached Sonic, it transformed into a purple Chaos Emerald, its original form, and emitted a strong light… and as if in response, the brooch on Sonic’s chest also transformed into a white Chaos Emerald and began to shine.

Blaze and Sonic nodded silently. And at that moment, all of them understood at the same time what they should do now.

“…You better have this, Sonic!”
“The charm of victory! It’s yours!”
“Sonic! I’m gonna let ya handle this one!”

One after another, the tiara, pendant, and transformation belt filled with their hopes gather at Sonic. They are restored to their original forms and shine brightly in a variety of colors."

therefore, Perfect Chaos' situation for Sonic to transform has precedent for other situations in the series to be the Emeralds at their full power, which is perfectly supported by the earlier statements and scaling presented

Support points​

He uses the Arrow of Light during the confrontation, which is a tecnhique only ever used against Full Powered Super Sonic opponents over the years​

this is more of a support point, but it is said that Sonic can only harm Perfect Chaos by using his Arrow of Light Technique, which is historically a move he only ever pulled up against Peak Super Form opponents, like Solaris and Light-Man Eggman

Addressing things​

1 Base Sonic defeated Chaos​

While true, given the evidence above for Chaos to be Peak Super Form tier/1-C, we can easily discard this as an outlier, Chaos should be able to easily destroy Sonic with one attack..........which is said in the series itself, in Otherworldly comedy it is said that if Chaos hits base Sonic at all, which is a Sonic after Generations where he fought Chaos, Sonic would have died and that Super Sonic, accepted as using his Full Power here, could barely dodge attacks from these Chaos, and no, this isn't a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos" this is a World Eggman created where, in Sonic Adventure, he was able to control Chaos completely, aka this is Adventure Era Perfect Chaos from a world recreating these events

"The runaway disaster that once submerged Station Square. The “God of Destruction,” who wanted to ruin everything indiscriminately, further attacked Sonic with an energy breath that could pierce mountains. Eggman rattled on in a good mood.

“This is the world where I have Chaos under my control and everything has gone well! By defeating you and making this other world ‘original,’ my ‘otherworld conquest’ will be complete!”

2 Super Sonic when at full power easily destroyed several Perfect Chaos clones with his Aura alone​

yes, but no, see there is more context for why he was able to do it. For one, those Chaos' were not as strong as the original Perfect Chaos. "But the Phantom Ruby clones are as powerful as the original!" Yeah, normally that is true........but in this case, Perfect Chaos is a Chaos Energy user. Chaos Energy is displayed and accepted to rely on emotions to show their true power, which is something that Super Sonic comments Perfect Chaos lacks before he explains why he can deal with them so easily to Eggman. considering how both the OG Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic are powered by the same thing, the Chaos Emeralds, this comparison becomes even more clear. so no, Chaos wasn't as strong as he should be due to not having "heart" to fuel his Chaos Energy to its true potential

Plus....Sonic wasn't destroying them with AP, as explained by Eggman, Sonic was actually Nullifying his "Otherwordlyfication", making all of them disapear as a result, with Sonic explaining this as well when Eggman questions his ability to easily make all Perfect Chaos' disappear

"The energy of the roars evaporated the seawater hundreds of meters around them, sending a plume of vapor smoke high into the sky, but…

When the smoke eventually dissipated into the wind, there was a golden hedgehog, unharmed and still in the sky.

“…That won’t work on me!”
“This cannot be! Perhaps the power of Super Sonic neutralizes otherworldification…? Wait, could it be…!”

Which is even clearer by later interaction of Super Sonic and the constructs of Otherworldlyfication:

"As Eggman continues his desperate escape, he raises his hand and his surroundings are instantly transformed into an alternate world in outer space. The “Eclipse Cannon,” an optical weapon mounted on the Space Colony ARK that can pierce even the stars, points its muzzle at Sonic, and the enormous energy of the cannon strikes him, but…

“I told you it doesn’t work!”

Baaang!

“Eeeep!”

When Sonic roared and emitted a golden aura, the other world vanished like mist. The fake cosmos also collapsed. Eggman, who runs away with no other trick up his sleeve, continues to create alternate worlds, whether he knows it is futile or not.

…A world where he used the power of Dark Gaia to complete the new Eggmanland.
…A world where he perfected the ultimate weapon with the planet’s life energy, with the help of the Six Demons serving under him.
…A world where he took control of the runaway Mother Wisp and brainwashed all living things around the world.

But all of the alternate worlds of Eggman’s dreams are instantly drowned out by the brilliance of Super Sonic.

“Give it up, Eggman! So much for your stupid ‘otherworld conquest’ thing!”
“Stuff it! You’re eradicating all my dreams!”


so it wasn't ever because Sonic was too powerful, it was simply Sonic nullifying the ability that was making the Perfect Chaos' exist in the first place

Conclusion​

Perfect Chaos should be upgraded to 1-C via scaling to a Full Powered Super Sonic, and should be considered a "Full Powered" Chaos Energy user as well like Solaris or The Titans are, and his fight with Sonic in Generations has to go back to being an outlier as earlier stories make clear that an weaker clone of Perfect Chaos could completely one shot Sonic have him not been Super

A BIG, BIG thank you to @ShakeResounding for helping me out with this thing

Note3: Please.....PLEASE don't bring up 1-C base Sonic in this, i don't want to talk about it here, AT ALL​

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

Against:

I disagree. The only real valid point is the Sonic Channel statement of using the "full power" of the emeralds, which is valid, except...

• This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, just Sonic.
• Feats>Statements. Chaos has no real feats scaling him to people like Solaris. He has other anti-feats, too. Actual events from the games take precedence over secondary material, meaning dismissing the Generations fight for this is a no go.

The other valid point is Otherworld Chaos, mainly that he could've killed Base Sonic. However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this. Plus Sonic could still be killed by a full power attack from Chaos if he doesn't block, he died to Mephiles, after-all. You don't need to be super form tier to kill Base Sonic.

Second point doesn't matter if Super Sonic wasn't at full power, since it's talking about the moment only.

Third and fourth don't really matter, too. Metal Overlord is going to be downgraded because he doesn't have proof that he fought Full Power Super Sonic, either. Lightman the same. Emotional empowerement is too vague to say if an enemy is full power Super Sonic tier or not, it's better to rate them by their feats.

I agree with all of this, pretty much. We shouldn't be using stuff like "emotional empowerment" as a means to determine if someone is Full Power Super Sonic tier or not. It's all in the individual feats, as doing otherwise is trying to force consistency into something inherently inconsistent (that being the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds). The only reason 2-C is a baseline is because there's no one using the Emeralds in that feat, but when people use the Emeralds, that's a different story.

Metal Overlord's going down to 2-C for this very reason. Light-Man Eggman should also be going down to Low 1-C (not 2-C, because of the 5-D the Egg Field; the OP funnily enough explained why exactly it wouldn't still be 1-C with the Dark Gaia stuff).

So yeah, hard disagree with the OP. The "full power" statement also came at a time when 1-C Super Forms didn't even exist yet, so like, yeah...

Omega linked some counters to these, but a summary should unbiasedly show both sides, not just one side and counters to the counter arguments.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega linked some counters to these, but a summary should unbiasedly show both sides, not just one side and counters to the counter arguments.

I mean.....this is why i showed the counters and linked the last messages where i quoted your counters as well, just so it isn't the OP and you showing counters to it. As that would be biased like what you described

 

[Theuser789]

I mean.....this is why i showed the counters and linked the last messages where i quoted your counters as well, just so it isn't the OP and you showing counters to it. As that would be biased like what you described

When a person asks for a summary, they want to see a summary of points, not a debate. Linking you debating me is counterproductive to that.

 

[Omegabronic]

When a person asks for a summary, they want to see a summary of points, not a debate. Linking you debating me is counterproductive to that.

I see, but i am also linking my points there, and you also linked "debate" by linking your answers/counters to the OP, so wouldn't you be doing the same thing? I will edit my post to include stuff in it so

 

[Theuser789]

I see, but i am also linking my points there, and you also linked "debate" by linking your answers/counters to the OP, so wouldn't you be doing the same thing? I will edit my post to include stuff in it so

I linked the pro argument, then the counter argument so staff can see both sides. Linking the counter of the counter is already counterproductive.

 

[Omegabronic]

I linked the pro argument, then the counter argument so staff can see both sides. Linking the counter of the counter is already counterproductive.

How? If staff votes based on an argument i gave, imo, a good counter for, wouldn't that be counterproductive to the thread as important arguments would not be taken into account? How is you only having the counter say while i can't include anything else besides the OP, thus killing the debate, a fair situation here?

 

[Omegabronic]

You know what? I will read the entire thread and make a through summary myself, so just wait for that

 

[Omegabronic]

Hello y'all, here i am going to prove why Perfect Chaos should scale to the full power of the Chaos Emeralds, as we currently only rate him to 2-C based around him fighting a "baseline" Super Sonic......well, today i will show why Super Sonic at that time WASN'T at baseline power, but rather fighting at his peak, aka using the Full power that the Chaos Emeralds can produce. here we go

link for the translation we use for Otherworldly comedy storyline, which will be a main point later on, by WindiiGitlord

note1: Sonic Channel/Sonic Channel stories are currently accepted as primary sources/Primary Canon, and the Manual for Sonic Adventure itself would also count as a primary soruce for obvious reasons

Main arguments​

1 Stated blatantly to have fought Sonic while the latter was using the Full/Maximum power of the emeralds​

This is the most straight forward point, in the Sonic Channel Bio it is said that Super Sonic used the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Perfect Chaos (Translations done by Windii, which i got extra confirmation from @Executor_N0 that it is accurate). aka the emeralds were at their full power

Now sure, one could argue that Perfect Chaos himself isn't using the Emeralds' Full Power as the statement is for Sonic......that, however, doesn't matter as Perfect Chaos would still be scaling from Full Powered Super Sonic in this fight anyway, making him 1-C regardless

also this statement came after Sonic 06 and the fight with Solaris, another 1-C Super Sonic opponent......make that what you will

2 No matter how much power Sonic gets from the Emeralds, he straight up can't harm him in anyway unless he uses a charged attack, the arrow of light​

It is said that Chaos in this state is way too powerful for Super Sonic to harm "No matter how powerful" he is, aka, no matter how much power Sonic draws from the Emeralds, Chaos is simply too durable for him to harm at all with his normal attacks, so he should be > Chaos Emeralds' Full Power since not even that would be enough to harm him without the extra stats amp of a charged attack, if Sonic wasn't at his Full power, as the earlier statements and following evidence makes clear he was, he could also just......power himself up with Empowerment, which is how Chaos Emeralds generate more power, until he is powerful enough to overpower Chaos normally, as Chaos would be 2-C while he can go up to 1-C, so surely he can also go to any amount of power to not need a charged attack......yet he still does anyway

note2: For this point, the point isn't him using the Arrow of light, but that it is verbatim stated that Chaos is too powerful to be harmed by Super Sonic, NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL HE IS, therefore, no matter how much Sonic powers up, be it his minimal or Full power, Chaos is simply too superior for Sonic to be able to harm him

3 His data is what made Metal Overlord the threat he is​

The way Metal Overlord, accepted as 1-C currently, achieved his power was via copying Perfect Chaos' data. which combined with the fact that it also cannot be harmed at all by Super Sonic unless he uses a charged combined attack with Tails and Knuckles + Eggman saying that even with the Emeralds they will need a miracle to beat him, makes it clear that they are fighting a Peak Super Form opponent. hence why they straight up cannot harm him, which wouldn't happen if they could simply power up further to do so

Some people say that Metal Overlord should be downgraded........but he really shouldn't, even against Full Powered Super forms Sonic doesn't need to charge up for a long time on the Emeralds to transform, plus other evidence, but most importantly, if people think he should be downgraded......well they should try and prove that later in another thread, not this one, as it would be derailing

4 Similar situation to other confirmed Full Power Super Sonic situations​

To power up the Chaos Emeralds for his final fight with Perfect Chaos, Sonic channeled his emotions/"heart" with not only his friends, but all civilians of Station Square, which is a similar situations to other accepted Full Power Super Sonic opponents, like Solaris, who the Emeralds channeled the power of all present to make him go Super, and Light-Man Eggman, who Sonic had the Emeralds charge up with all the "heart" and past essences of all his friends present as well:

"As it approached Sonic, it transformed into a purple Chaos Emerald, its original form, and emitted a strong light… and as if in response, the brooch on Sonic’s chest also transformed into a white Chaos Emerald and began to shine.

Blaze and Sonic nodded silently. And at that moment, all of them understood at the same time what they should do now.

“…You better have this, Sonic!”
“The charm of victory! It’s yours!”
“Sonic! I’m gonna let ya handle this one!”

One after another, the tiara, pendant, and transformation belt filled with their hopes gather at Sonic. They are restored to their original forms and shine brightly in a variety of colors."

therefore, Perfect Chaos' situation for Sonic to transform has precedent for other situations in the series to be the Emeralds at their full power, which is perfectly supported by the earlier statements and scaling presented, given we know how the Emeralds are empowered and how Sonic

with this, i have shown a consistent pattern on the situation Sonic goes Full Power with Super Sonic

5 He has direct feats scaling to Full Powered/1-C Super Sonic​

PC is blatantly extremely superior to Base Modern Sonic and scaling in Speed to Full Powered Super Sonic who can barely dodge its attacks, we also have another moment showing how blatantly Perfect Chaos is absurdity superior to Base Sonic, when Eggman ordered all of them to attack Sonic, he was utterly shocked by how nothing worked

"The energy of the roars evaporated the seawater hundreds of meters around them, sending a plume of vapor smoke high into the sky, but…

When the smoke eventually dissipated into the wind, there was a golden hedgehog, unharmed and still in the sky.

“…That won’t work on me!”
“This cannot be! Perhaps the power of Super Sonic neutralizes otherworldification…? Wait, could it be…!”"

Since we accept Eggman in this state to scale equally to Super Sonic, it would be weird for him to be surprised by being supposedly infinitely weaker than both of them being unable to harm Super Sonic at all, and before anyone says that Light-Man Eggman should be downgraded, his energy, that he uses to power himself, is also uses to create Dark Gaia, another 1-C being, making his already solid tier more solid

"When Sonic roared and emitted a golden aura, the other world vanished like mist. The fake cosmos also collapsed. Eggman, who runs away with no other trick up his sleeve, continues to create alternate worlds, whether he knows it is futile or not.

…A world where he used the power of Dark Gaia to complete the new Eggmanland.
…A world where he perfected the ultimate weapon with the planet’s life energy, with the help of the Six Demons serving under him.
…A world where he took control of the runaway Mother Wisp and brainwashed all living things around the world"

Support points​

He uses the Arrow of Light during the confrontation, which is a tecnhique only ever used against Full Powered Super Sonic opponents over the years​

this is more of a support point, but it is said that Sonic can only harm Perfect Chaos by using his Arrow of Light Technique, which is historically a move he only ever pulled up against Peak Super Form opponents, like Solaris and Light-Man Eggman

Addressing things​

1 Base Sonic defeated Chaos​

While true, given the evidence above for Chaos to be Peak Super Form tier/1-C, we can easily discard this as an outlier, Chaos should be able to easily destroy Sonic with one attack..........which is said in the series itself, in Otherworldly comedy it is said that if Chaos hits base Sonic at all, which is a Sonic after Generations where he fought Chaos, Sonic would have died, no one can use the "he would be caught off guard" card here either, as Sonic was directly looking at the position where the attacks came from and was in the middle of a fight, so he was pretty much on guard here

Super Sonic, accepted as using his Full Power in this instance(See Light-Man Eggman's profile), could barely dodge attacks from these Chaoses, and no, this isn't a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos" this is a World Eggman created where, in Sonic Adventure, he was able to control Chaos completely, aka this is Adventure Era Perfect Chaos from a world recreating these events, and there is absolutely no evidence of Eggman "powering up" his clones or anything like that, and we have no backing up on that even being a thing the Phantom Ruby can do to its clones, they are always described as being "as strong as the originals", never "stronger", else he could have empowered them during Sonic Forces and wiped the resistance out.....yet he didn't

"The runaway disaster that once submerged Station Square. The “God of Destruction,” who wanted to ruin everything indiscriminately, further attacked Sonic with an energy breath that could pierce mountains. Eggman rattled on in a good mood.

“This is the world where I have Chaos under my control and everything has gone well! By defeating you and making this other world ‘original,’ my ‘otherworld conquest’ will be complete!”

And while yes, this Chaos is.....technically different from the one of the Adventure era, it isn't by anything worthwhile that would make it stronger, more details in the next point.....

to make it very clear, my argument here isn't "he can one shot base Sonic, so he is Super Sonic level" my argument here is that Base Sonic is nowhere close Chaos and needs Super to stand up against them, and can be harmed by them have it not be for what will be described bellow....

2 Super Sonic when at full power easily destroyed several Perfect Chaos clones with his Aura alone​

yes, but no, see there is more context for why he was able to do it. For one, those Chaos' were not as strong as the original Perfect Chaos. "But the Phantom Ruby clones are as powerful as the original!" Yeah, normally that is true........but in this case, Perfect Chaos is a Chaos Energy user. Chaos Energy is displayed and accepted to rely on emotions to show their true power, which is something that Super Sonic comments Perfect Chaos lacks before he explains why he can deal with them so easily to Eggman. considering how both the OG Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic are powered by the same thing, the Chaos Emeralds, this comparison becomes even more clear. so no, Chaos wasn't as strong as he should be due to not having "heart" to fuel his Chaos Energy to its true potential

Plus....Sonic wasn't destroying them with AP, as explained by Eggman, Sonic was actually Nullifying his "Otherwordlyfication", making all of them disapear as a result, with Sonic explaining this as well when Eggman questions his ability to easily make all Perfect Chaos' disappear

"The energy of the roars evaporated the seawater hundreds of meters around them, sending a plume of vapor smoke high into the sky, but…

When the smoke eventually dissipated into the wind, there was a golden hedgehog, unharmed and still in the sky.

“…That won’t work on me!”
“This cannot be! Perhaps the power of Super Sonic neutralizes otherworldification…? Wait, could it be…!”

Which is even clearer by later interaction of Super Sonic and the constructs of Otherworldlyfication:

"As Eggman continues his desperate escape, he raises his hand and his surroundings are instantly transformed into an alternate world in outer space. The “Eclipse Cannon,” an optical weapon mounted on the Space Colony ARK that can pierce even the stars, points its muzzle at Sonic, and the enormous energy of the cannon strikes him, but…

“I told you it doesn’t work!”

Baaang!

“Eeeep!”

When Sonic roared and emitted a golden aura, the other world vanished like mist. The fake cosmos also collapsed. Eggman, who runs away with no other trick up his sleeve, continues to create alternate worlds, whether he knows it is futile or not.

…A world where he used the power of Dark Gaia to complete the new Eggmanland.
…A world where he perfected the ultimate weapon with the planet’s life energy, with the help of the Six Demons serving under him.
…A world where he took control of the runaway Mother Wisp and brainwashed all living things around the world.

But all of the alternate worlds of Eggman’s dreams are instantly drowned out by the brilliance of Super Sonic.

“Give it up, Eggman! So much for your stupid ‘otherworld conquest’ thing!”
“Stuff it! You’re eradicating all my dreams!”


so it wasn't ever because Sonic was too powerful, it was simply Sonic nullifying the ability that was making the Perfect Chaos' exist in the first place

Conclusion​

Perfect Chaos should be upgraded to 1-C via scaling to a Full Powered Super Sonic, and should be considered a "Full Powered" Chaos Energy user as well like Solaris or The Titans are, and his fight with Sonic in Generations has to go back to being an outlier as earlier stories make clear that an weaker clone of Perfect Chaos could completely one shot Sonic have him not been Super, as Perfect Chaos has no consistent anti feats to contradict the very consistent statements and feats he has to scale to a Full Powered Super Sonic/1-C

to summarize, he is heavily implied to be able to harm Full Powered Super Sonic in Otherwordly comedy, Super Sonic there can barely dodge its attacks, it is Blatant Said to have been fighting a Super Sonic using the Full Power of the Chaos Emeralds, aka 1-C, is said to be too powerful for Super Sonic to harm without a massive stat amp move, regardless of how powerful Super Sonic on his own is

so he has consistent statements and feats to scale, and has feats showing massive superiority to Base Sonic, when mixing all the evidence, Base Sonic beating Chaos is the outlier, since it is the isolated singular event that has no explanation vs literally all else surrounding Chaos

A BIG, BIG thank you to @ShakeResounding for helping me out with this thing

Note3: Please.....PLEASE don't bring up 1-C base Sonic in this, i don't want to talk about it here, AT ALL​

Note4: Here are some rebuttals to some common counter arguments to the arguments on this thread

EDIT5: Here is the summary of the main arguments of the thread​

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

I disagree. The only real valid point is the Sonic Channel statement of using the "full power" of the emeralds, which is valid, except...

• This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, just Sonic.
• Feats>Statements. Chaos has no real feats scaling him to people like Solaris. He has other anti-feats, too. Actual events from the games take precedence over secondary material, meaning dismissing the Generations fight for this is a no go.

The other valid point is Otherworld Chaos, mainly that he could've killed Base Sonic. However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this. Plus Sonic could still be killed by a full power attack from Chaos if he doesn't block, he died to Mephiles, after-all. You don't need to be super form tier to kill Base Sonic.

Second point doesn't matter if Super Sonic wasn't at full power, since it's talking about the moment only.

Third and fourth don't really matter, too. Metal Overlord is going to be downgraded because he doesn't have proof that he fought Full Power Super Sonic, either. Lightman the same. Emotional empowerement is too vague to say if an enemy is full power Super Sonic tier or not, it's better to rate them by their feats.

I agree with all of this, pretty much. We shouldn't be using stuff like "emotional empowerment" as a means to determine if someone is Full Power Super Sonic tier or not. It's all in the individual feats, as doing otherwise is trying to force consistency into something inherently inconsistent (that being the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds). The only reason 2-C is a baseline is because there's no one using the Emeralds in that feat, but when people use the Emeralds, that's a different story.

Metal Overlord's going down to 2-C for this very reason. Light-Man Eggman should also be going down to Low 1-C (not 2-C, because of the 5-D the Egg Field; the OP funnily enough explained why exactly it wouldn't still be 1-C with the Dark Gaia stuff).

So yeah, hard disagree with the OP. The "full power" statement also came at a time when 1-C Super Forms didn't even exist yet, so like, yeah...

After discussions with User offsite, i decided to simply link the OP and the main arguments of the opposition like he did earlier, did a final edit to the OP to make some points more clear and expand others i talked too little originally, consider this for a summary

Can someone give a summary of the arguments?

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Omegabronic]

bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

After discussions with User offsite, i decided to simply link the OP and the main arguments of the opposition like he did earlier, did a final edit to the OP to make some points more clear and expand others i talked too little originally, consider this for a summary

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist

Summary of both sides of the discussion here. What do you think of the OP's proposals, based on this?

 

[Chariot190]

i like chaos he cool

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Seeing the summaries of both sides I still think the contradictions for Complex Multiverse level Perfect Chaos are too egregious and retain my disagreement with the upgrade.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Seeing the summaries of both sides I still think the contradictions for Complex Multiverse level Perfect Chaos are too egregious and retain my disagreement with the upgrade.

Which contradictions are you reffering to exactly?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with what Theuser and several others said, and thus disagree with the thread.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist

Summary of both sides of the discussion here. What do you think of the OP's proposals, based on this?

I've been meaning to look at the thread already, I'll try and respond sometime today.

 

[Starsprite53]

Most of the "contradictions" either got debunked or are mostly arguments from belief, as if the already scaling wouldn't look absurd to the peeps from 2019

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Planck69 @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Elizhaa @LephyrTheRevanchist

Summary of both sides of the discussion here. What do you think of the OP's proposals, based on this?

For future reference, I am not participating on Sonic related threads.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Alright, looking at the arguments linked on this page, I'm going to agree with the OP (I'll even state my reasons why so people don't ask what I agreed with)

Via statements, it outright says Sonic used the full power of the Chaos Emeralds, which we rate as 1-C. The counter argument that this is only referring to Sonic and thus Chaos wasn't, is countered by the other statement that Super Sonic couldn't harm Perfect Chaos unless he charged attacked him.

The OP's argument revolving around base Sonic seems to just be their to make sure he's not used as an argument against PC scaling to Super Sonic, not as an argument to why he scales. As for the feats>statements argument, I can agree to this unless it's also beat by inconsistency, like base Sonic beating Perfect Chaos is an anti-feat to Chaos but if Sonic outright needs Super Sonic to beat him in his game these effectively counter each other and thus statements would back one side more. This is just me giving an example, I'm not super knowledgeable on all the Sonic games and lore.

As for the Metal Overload and Light Man counter arguments, specifically people saying they should be downgraded to is not a valid argument. Yes a future thread regarding them being downgraded will effect arguments involving them, but right now they scale to 1-C, so saying they should be downgraded isn't valid until it's actually implemented. I've noticed people have an issue with how we currently scale Super Forms (and characters to them) but that's something that has to be taken care of on a different thread

To me, some (not all) of the counter arguments seem like they are based on issues that aren't applied to the current scaling yet. This doesn't mean they'll have no impact, just that it's not applicable yet. As it currently stands I think the OP has more going for it, so I'm in agreement with the upgrade for now. Note this is my evaluation based on the arguments linked on this page, if someone has an important argument that they think I should be aware of let me know.

Also, my apologies to the OP for taking so long to evaluate this revision from the time they asked.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, LordGriffin1000 makes a good point there. If some issues require further revisions then they should be tackled in their own threads.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yeah, LordGriffin1000 makes a good point there. If some issues require further revisions then they should be tackled in their own threads.

Is this you agreeing with the thread?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, LordGriffin1000 makes a good point there. If some issues require further revisions then they should be tackled in their own threads.

To begin with, though, scaling Super Forms to higher tiers based on perceived "emotion amps" without any feats is directly contradictory to what's supposed to be done given the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds. It's trying to force consistency onto something inherently inconsistent, the way I see it

(The likes of Finalhazard would also scale due to a single statement of having "impressive" power after Perfect Chaos despite also not even remotely having the proper showings for such a high tier)

 

[Omegabronic]

To begin with, though, scaling Super Forms to higher tiers based on perceived "emotion amps" without any feats is directly contradictory to what's supposed to be done given the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds.

exept......i gave feats, Chaos' appearance in Otherworldly comedy + Statements of his using the Full Power of the Emeralds and Sonic being unable to hurt Chaos at all, regardless of how powerful he is as Super Sonic, without using a Stat Amp of the arrow of light, that allows him to one shot opponents he is comparable to, plus that is a support point since we have a verbatim statement about Sonic reaching the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Chaos, so overall, no, i am not using "emotion amps" without any feats or on its own, i have like......all or points that are not reliant on that

It's trying to force consistency onto something inherently inconsistent, the way I see it

exept, it is consistent as i have so, SO many other points pointing to it, including a blatant statement

you are not making any sense now, as you are acting as if i only used point 4 of the OP on its own, which yeah, wouldn't be enough, but you are ignoring all other points that either blatantly say he is fighting Chaos at the Full Power of the Emeralds, or Chaos is the one being copied to make a 1-C character 1-C, or he is directly fighting and threatening seriously a tier 1/Full Powered Super Sonic, making this point you have.........simply not be true, there is no "forcing" when i am showing several consistent evidence

(The likes of Finalhazard would also scale due to a single statement of having "impressive" power after Perfect Chaos despite also not even remotely having the proper showings for such a high tier)

1 that is not something suggested in this thread, so not matter

2 as you said, he doesn't have enough reasoning on his own, so he doesn't scale for lack of evidence, which is irrelevant for Chaos since he does have enough evidence

 

[Omegabronic]

Seeing the summaries of both sides I still think the contradictions for Complex Multiverse level Perfect Chaos are too egregious and retain my disagreement with the upgrade.

I agree with what Theuser and several others said, and thus disagree with the thread.

Do the arguments said by Lord Griffin change any of your views in any capacity?

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, I'm not seeing the "variable power " argument against the 1-C scaling that much if we're verbatim told he's using these Chaos Emerald's full power.

Neutral for now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, I always recall one of the main highlights for why Perfect Chaos doesn't scale from peak state Super Sonic is because the entire fight was One-Sided. Sonic was actively trying not to destroy Chaos, but to "Open his Heart" (The theme song of Sonic Adventure) to him. Perfect Chaos does 0 damage to Super Sonic where as Sonic only did a few hits that was intended to subdue without killing him. And his goal was to cure him of depression, isolation, and loneliness and not really fighting him.

 

[Omegabronic]

Also, I always recall one of the main highlights for why Perfect Chaos doesn't scale from peak state Super Sonic is because the entire fight was One-Sided.

not true, Super Sonic was never implied to have had an easy time with him, it is actually directly stated to be the opposite, Chaos is said to be way too powerful for Super Sonic to harm in any capacity without using the Arrow of light, which, as pointed in the OP, can one Shot beings comparable to Super Sonic himself

further more, statements directly say he used the Full Power of the Chaos Emeralds to combat Chaos, that plus Chaos being able to give trouble and real danger to a accepted 1-C Sonic in Otherwordly comedy bring down any "it was a one sided fight" argument

Sonic was actively trying not to destroy Chaos, but to "Open his Heart" (The theme song of Sonic Adventure) to him. Perfect Chaos does 0 damage to Super Sonic where as Sonic only did a few hits that was intended to subdue without killing him. And his goal was to cure him of depression, isolation, and loneliness and not really fighting him.

yeah, that was his objective........but that doesn't mean much, as Sonic still needed to fight and defeat Chaos, see, one doesn't mean that he couldn't be using 1-C levels of power/the Full Power of the Emeralds as we are directly stated he did

Sonic did pacify Chaos in the end of the fight, and he didn't want to seal Chaos forever but save him, but that doesn't tell us that he WASN'T using the Full Power of the Emeralds or that Chaos was weaker than Super Sonic in any capacity, in fact, we are directly stated and shown the complete opposite multiple times throughout the series, Sonic may have not wanted to kill Chaos, but that doesn't mean he didn't need the Full Power of the Emeralds to be able to even fight him to begin with, we directly said and shown that he did need that 1-C level of power, therefore this is simply not a proof of how much power Sonic was exerting, which we are directly told how much he was, that being the complete Full Power, but instead tells us that, even without wanting to kill Chaos, Sonic needed the Full Power of the Emeralds to stand any change of winning, be that killing or pacifying him, as otherwise he doesn't stand a chance, as all the statements and evidence shows

 

[JJSliderman]

that plus Chaos being able to give trouble and real danger to a accepted 1-C Sonic in Otherwordly comedy bring down any "it was a one sided fight" argument

Super Sonic was never really in danger from Perfect Chaos in that story, the second it lands a hit Super Sonic takes no damage and immediately dissipates it, after calling it a sham.

 

[Omegabronic]

Super Sonic was never really in danger from Perfect Chaos in that story, the second it lands a hit Super Sonic takes no damage and immediately dissipates it, after calling it a sham.

don't ignore the context i gave for that, yes, he was in real danger.....have it not being for the Power Null his aura had that nullified all that could possibly harm him there, have it not been for that, Eggman, who as strong as Sonic, acknowledges that Perfect Chaos is a thread to him, hence why he makes them attack him, the Narrator does the same, Super Sonic himself does the same when he sees the need to dodge his attacks and can even barely do so at that


have it not being for Hax, if it was just power? yeah, Super Sonic would be in real danger, seriously, you must have understood the context of what i said

 

[Theuser789]

Sonic takes no damage from Chaos in Adventure. That trumps any implications Sonic "could" be hurt or not since he never got hit.

 

[Omegabronic]

Sonic takes no damage from Chaos in Adventure. That trumps any implications Sonic "could" be hurt or not since he never got hit.

Lightman-Eggman, who is stated equal to Sonic in that story, and has years of experience fighting the Super Form, certainly thinks he can harm Sonic

Sonic himself also thinks that as he bothers to dodge his attacks, else he wouldn't bother to do that and would just power through it all

and the narrator itself says hows "desperate" it is for Sonic to not be able to dodge the attacks from Chaos while surrounded, which obviously only make sense if he can hurt to begin with, else there would be nothing to be "desperate" about in that that situation

Sonic is only never hurt in gameplay by Chaos in adventure, the entire situation around it in the lore, as shown in Otherworldly comedy, makes it crystal clear that Chaos can hurt Sonic, seriously, Chaos merely roaring was enough to affect Sonic physically in that story, saying that he somehow cannot threat him at all no matter what is........going against the entire narrative of that situation, it simply makes it not make sense to its entirety, it makes no sense why eggman would assume nullification instead of invulnerability if that is the case, for you to assume Chaos can't harm Sonic, you somehow have to assume Eggman, Sonic and the Narrator are all idiots who are wrong......which is way too many assumptions at once

 

[Omegabronic]

Honestly, I'm not seeing the "variable power " argument against the 1-C scaling that much if we're verbatim told he's using these Chaos Emerald's full power.

Neutral for now.

just to know, what would it take to make you go from "neutral" to "full agreement"?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, you can't bypass Invulnerability with AP anyway.

 

[Theuser789]

Chaos can still stun Sonic (hence why you even have to dodge his attacks in gameplay) and Eggman was just shocked nothing happened when dozens of Chaos hit Sonic at point blank. He could simply be shocked Sonic wasn't stunned, not that he thought Chaos can bypass Sonic's invulnerability.