Dreams of an Overlord (Metal Overlord Tiering CRT)

[LordGriffin1000]

I assume the votes of LordGriffin and Maverick would carry over to here?

I gotta recheck the arguments.

Also can we tone it down please (this is addressing those who are throwing accusations and such)

 

[Theuser789]

I gotta recheck the arguments.

Also can we tone it down please (this is addressing those who are throwing accusations and such)

I recommend checking out this post and the one on your wall: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dreams-of-an-overlord-metal-overlord-tiering-crt.176025/post-6932662

As well as this entire thread, of course.

Right now this thread has three choices:

Keeping 1-C
Downgrading to 2-C
Downgrading to low 1-C.

Personally I am in favor of everything except low 1-C.

 

[Omegabronic]

I gotta recheck the arguments.

as a heads up, the arguments... much the same, they didn't changed much from one thread to this one

 

[Theuser789]

as a heads up, the arguments... much the same, they didn't changed much from one thread to this one

No. I brought up the new argument of just keeping Overlord at 1-C that keeps being ignored.

 

[Omegabronic]

No. I brought up the new argument of just keeping Overlord at 1-C that keeps being ignored.

i said "didn't changed much" not "didn't changed at all"

 

[Theuser789]

i said "didn't changed much" not "didn't changed at all"

Semantics. Both basically mean the same.

 

[Chariot190]

MO being 1-C is based on conjecture.
We don't concretely know if he was using the full power of the Emeralds in Heroes. While it very well could be the case, we need a statement of such.
The reason for Low 1-C is more based on Eggman's knowledge of what they're capable of, as opposed to the hypothetical limit, which, at the time, he would not have been aware of and thus couldn't account for that in his yap. If Eggman at the time was aware of 1-C stuff for the Emerald's though, this would be fine, if he wasn't, it doesn't work.

The alternative line of scaling would be through Shadow, but much like how Shadow doesn't act as a anti-feat, he doesn't act as a feat either. He's an unknown X-Factor, we don't know how strong he is at that time, just that he's above base, but not yet as strong as when he fought Neo Doom. Shadow in actuality is scaling off MO, not MO scaling off Shadow.

As such, for this line of reasoning to hold any merit at all, evidence that Eggman knew of the Emerald's 1-C potential needs to be brought forth, if it can't, it doesn't work.

 

[Theuser789]

While it very well could be the case, we need a statement of such.

We literally don't have a statement for 50% of Low 1-C dudes. We know they needed to charge the emeralds to go super in Heroes, Perfect Chaos has a statement of using "the full power" of the Chaos Emeralds (which Metal Overlord has the data of).

The reason for Low 1-C is more based on Eggman's knowledge of what they're capable of, as opposed to the hypothetical limit, which, at the time, he would not have been aware of and thus couldn't account for that in his yap. If Eggman at the time was aware of 1-C stuff for the Emerald's though, this would be fine, if he wasn't, it doesn't work.

Like it was argued before, Eggman doesn't actually know about the Precious Stone full power. He never saw Illumina nor the 4th dimensional space, either. The advance statements are from an omniscient narrator, not Eggman himself. 5D is purely out of scaling of the emeralds being equal to Overlord, not Eggman's knowledge of them being above Maginary World (since he never actually said it himself).

We never based scaling based on the characters knowledge of the emeralds or not, but simply if they're using the full power or not. And since Shadow is "X-factor" he doesn't have anything implying he doesn't scale to the full power of the emeralds.

 

[Omegabronic]

We literally don't have a statement for 50% of Low 1-C dudes. We know they needed to charge the emeralds to go super in Heroes, Perfect Chaos has a statement of using "the full power" of the Chaos Emeralds (which Metal Overlord has the data of).

that would require a PC upgrade to tier 1 tho

not Eggman's knowledge of them being above Maginary World (since he never actually said it himself).

the statements are literally saying that they are the strongest things, himself

We never based scaling based on the characters knowledge of the emeralds or not, but simply if they're using the full power or not. And since Shadow is "X-factor" he doesn't have anything implying he doesn't scale to the full power of the emeralds.

so you propose we keep MO as is?

 

[Theuser789]

that would require a PC upgrade to tier 1 tho

More solid than Low 1-C Overlord, yes. At least Chaos has a blatant full power statement unlike 5D Overlord based on chaining different statements together.

the statements are literally saying that they are the strongest things, himself

What statements? Eggman never states anything is stronger than Maginary World, ever. The narrator is the one who implies Chaos Emeralds>>>Everything. Overlord's argument is taking the narrator and Eggman and mixing them together, when the latter never said anything similar.

so you propose we keep MO as is?

Yes, it's better than 5D Overlord.

 

[Chariot190]

We literally don't have a statement for 50% of Low 1-C dudes.

Is that supposed to be an argument? If they don't have any reason, why are you scaling them to that?
I do not care if the scaling for other stuff is faulty if true, that or you're using a false equilavence. If they need to be changed or looked over again, we can do so in a future thread.

We know they needed to charge the emeralds to go super in Heroes,

That is true, but to what extent? We can affirm it's at the very least not the base strength, but is it peak?
Hard to say, and I'm not one for conjecture, I want solid evidence.

The low 1-C scaling is based on Eggman's knowledge.

Perfect Chaos has a statement of using "the full power" of the Chaos Emeralds (which Metal Overlord has the data of).

That was rejected was it not? Remake that thread after this one with additional evidence if you want 1-C Chaos. If you get it accepted, 1-C MO via 1-C Chaos would be potentially valid, but that isn't accepted as of now.

Chaos doesn't effect this thread or any of the arguments in it, not even the fact MO has his data.

Like it was argued before, Eggman doesn't actually know about the Precious Stone full power.

It was argued, but it doesn't mean it's correct.

They state he does, in fact, know its power and that's why he wants it.
He is aware of the feat that makes it 5D to begin with, or at least, a Low 1-C feat involving it.

This, again, is conjecture, you're interpretating and enforcing extra assumptions to arrive at a preconcieved notion. Nothing says, nor implies, what you're arguing, and even if he didn't initially, he would by the end. And given Heroes happens after the end of Shuffle, two games after even, it's a nonfactor.

He never saw Illumina nor the 4th dimensional space, either.

Doesn't need to, he saw the dimensional collapse and is said to want its power, if he wants its power he evidently knows its power, if he didn't they would have specified otherwise.

The advance statements are from an omniscient narrator, not Eggman himself.

Bit of both actually.

5D is purely out of scaling of the emeralds being equal to Overlord, not Eggman's knowledge of them being above Maginary World (since he never actually said it himself).

That is objectively not the case, do not strawman the arguments.

5D is scaling the Emeralds above the Preciousstone. Eggman would be aware of such things given he was there as one of the low 1-C feats occured. Eggman has since, post Shuffle, noted how he believes the Chaos Emeralds to be the most powerful artifacts he's aware of in various manners, whether implicitly or explicitly. He does not believe that even with these things, that defeating MO is secure due to how powerful he has become. We can then say MO is, at the very least, comparable to Eggman's perceived view of the Emerald's capacity at that time.

We never based scaling based on the characters knowledge of the emeralds or not,

Not an argument. Things can change, we are doing so right now.

but simply if they're using the full power or not.

Which is a pretty limited way of doing things that ignores potential nuance or caveats to feats or context. If we have ways to be detailed about it, we may as well as that's more accurate to the goal of indexing.

And since Shadow is "X-factor" he doesn't have anything implying he doesn't scale to the full power of the emeralds.

That isn't how this works, you need actual proof that's the case. The abscence of counter evidence is not an arguement. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Omegabronic]

More solid than Low 1-C Overlord, yes. At least Chaos has a blatant full power statement unlike 5D Overlord based on chaining different statements together.

ok then, would you be the one to make a thread to upgrade Chaos first then?

What statements? Eggman never states anything is stronger than Maginary World, ever. The narrator is the one who implies Chaos Emeralds>>>Everything.

... the advance statements on Chaos Emeralds>>>Everything is literally Eggman talking himself on how they are >>>Everything, no the narrator

Overlord's argument is taking the narrator and Eggman and mixing them together, when the latter never said anything similar.

the latter indeed did said that yeah, have you checked the scans i used for my arguments in the OP?

Yes, it's better than 5D Overlord.

ok then

 

[CloverDragon03]

that would require a PC upgrade to tier 1 tho

That got ass-blasted btw, that thread is functionally rejected

 

[Omegabronic]

That got ass-blasted btw, that thread is functionally rejected

tell that to User, he is the one that brought it up

 

[CloverDragon03]

I just quoted something talking about it, I meant to say it in general

 

[Theuser789]

Is that supposed to be an argument? If they don't have any reason, why are you scaling them to that?
I do not care if the scaling for other stuff is faulty if true, that or you're using a false equilavence. If they need to be changed or looked over again, we can do so in a future thread.

This is an argument because I am explaining how Sonic scaling is done around you. In your post you made up rules on what scales or don't based on your own whims. I am saying no, you're wrong. You go make a thread fixing it all rather than making random rules.

That is true, but to what extent? We can affirm it's at the very least not the base strength, but is it peak?
Hard to say, and I'm not one for conjecture, I want solid evidence.

The low 1-C scaling is based on Eggman's knowledge.

Combined with everything, yes we can. It's already accepted, after-all. Since this is a downgrade, the burden of proof is you on you to prove they AREN'T at peak power.

Doesn't need to, he saw the dimensional collapse and is said to want its power, if he wants its power he evidently knows its power, if he didn't they would have specified otherwise.

There's no "dimensional collapse" in Shuffle that Eggman saw, and that has nothing to do with how strong the Precious Stone is, even. Void is the one erasing dreams. Eggman never sees the 5D dreams. In fact, the manual just says:

"Sonic and his friends must not only battle Void, but also Eggman, who learned of the power of the Precioustone and followed Sonic into Maginaryworld."

Nothing about Eggman knowing the peak of the Precioustone. In fact, Knuckles doesn't know about the 4th dimensional space, even though he was one of the heroes that directly got Illumina's message:


"Without the power of the Precioustone, Maginaryworld is faced with the danger of unraveling at the very seams of its existence.

In order to save Maginaryworld, Lumina Flowlight, the Guardian Fairy, sends out a message to the other worlds in search of a hero who can help restore Maginaryworld.

The message is sent out, in search of someone with courage and heart..."

Futhermore, the original japanese version says nothing about Eggman knowing about the "power" of the Precioustone, either.

"Eyeing Void and the Precious Stone, Dr Eggman pursues Sonic and gang…."

Just that he's eyeing them.

https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Shuffle/Manuals

I am not entertaining this anymore, either. This is a downgrade thread. The people in favor of downgrade need to debunk the current stats. Since Shadow is an X-factor, there's currently nothing debunking 1-C Overlord.

5D is scaling the Emeralds above the Preciousstone. Eggman would be aware of such things given he was there as one of the low 1-C feats occured.

Wrong. Eggman was in Sonic's world.

The opposition needs to argue why the downgrade is more valid than then keeping things this way starting next post.

 

[Theuser789]

The people in favor of a downgrade need to:
-Prove Overlord wasn't using the full power of the emeralds. This is currently what's accepted, so they need to prove why it is wrong.
-Prove Eggman knew the totality of Maginaryworld. Knuckles and Co. didn't despite being guided by Illumina.
-Prove Eggman knows the power of the Precioustone. All the Japanese version is saying he's eyeing Void and the stone for himself, nothing about him knowing it's power.
-Prove Overlord is superior to Maginaryworld. So far this is the only thing they've proved.

Since Shadow beating Overlord was argued to not be an anti-feat, people need to actually prove why the current scaling isn't valid then. This needs proof, not people just thinking it's better.

 

[Theuser789]

We can then say MO is, at the very least, comparable to Eggman's perceived view of the Emerald's capacity at that time.

Actually, Eggman should know of 1-C feats because of Generations. Classic Eggman directly piloted the Time Eater who is 1-C and saw Sonic beating it with the emeralds. Nothing in canon says he forgot Generations, either. I dismissed it for scaling Classic Super, but that was because of aptitude. If this is just about Eggman knowing the emeralds power, then he knows they can beat beings as powerful as the Time Eater.

 

[Chariot190]

This is an argument because I am explaining how Sonic scaling is done around you.

Unfortunate then, that this CRT is changing that. And there is no such thing as "this is how scaling is done".

In your post you made up rules on what scales or don't based on your own whims.

Wiki rules, ain't my fault. No verse is exempt. Do not derail, make a CRT.
I'm arguing what scales based on the info presented, relevant to the topic at hand. This accounts for Heroes, Shadow Generations, and Shuffle. I do not care if you think Infinite scales, go make a CRT for that or something idk.

I am saying no, you're wrong. You go make a thread fixing it all rather than making random rules.

I very well might at this rate if what you're saying is true and it's actually that bad.

Combined with everything, yes we can. It's already accepted, after-all. Since this is a downgrade, the burden of proof is you on you to prove they AREN'T at peak power.

What?
That isn't how CRT's work lad, nor the burden of proof. You can't just say something and expect people to agree with you. Where's the proof? Where's the evidence?

You can't just say they are.

As an fyi, a downgrade due to lack of evidence, is still fine and well.

There's no "dimensional collapse" in Shuffle that Eggman saw, and that has nothing to do with how strong the Precious Stone is, even. Void is the one erasing dreams. Eggman never sees the 5D dreams. In fact, the manual just says:

I'm not going to explain the basic plot premise of the game to you.

"Sonic and his friends must not only battle Void, but also Eggman, who learned of the power of the Precioustone and followed Sonic into Maginaryworld."

So he knows its power, cool. What's the argument again? That he actually doesn't know its power? Why does he want it then? That's rhetorical.

Nothing about Eggman knowing the peak of the Precioustone.

You are adding extra layers of interpretation that do not exist. It is a straightforward statement, and there is stuff he would be aware of anyhow invalidating that line of thought.

In fact, Knuckles doesn't know about the 4th dimensional space, even though he was one of the heroes that directly got Illumina's message:

That's cool, I don't think I need to explain that Knuckles most certainly isn't Eggman though.

"Without the power of the Precioustone, Maginaryworld is faced with the danger of unraveling at the very seams of its existence.

In order to save Maginaryworld, Lumina Flowlight, the Guardian Fairy, sends out a message to the other worlds in search of a hero who can help restore Maginaryworld.

The message is sent out, in search of someone with courage and heart..."

Futhermore, the original japanese version says nothing about Eggman knowing about the "power" of the Precioustone, either.

"Eyeing Void and the Precious Stone, Dr Eggman pursues Sonic and gang…."

Just that he's eyeing them.

https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Shuffle/Manuals

So... Nothing changes then? He's actively eyeing the Precious Stone because he's learned what it's capable of, a fact that simply playing the game would make abundantly clear. He has seen what it can do and the repercussions of it, even if the focus isn't on him, as he actively followed them and partook in bootleg Mario Party as a diet Bowser clone.

Despite this, come Advanced, he believes that the Chaos Emerald's, are but the strongest things he's seen still.
The worst part of this is.... That flatout says he's actually aware of Void and has been watching both Void and the Precious Stone, as in, he'd literally know about the Low 1-C slop.... That's actively more damning then a line saying he knows it's power, his ass be watching the thing+dude doing the feats.

Which is to say, this is arguing semantics, the actual relevant info remains the same, and I'd argue is actually better.

I am not entertaining this anymore, either. This is a downgrade thread. The people in favor of downgrade need to debunk the current stats. Since Shadow is an X-factor, there's currently nothing debunking 1-C Overlord.

There's also no reason to assume so atm beyond conjecture. Post actual proof if you want that.

Wrong. Eggman was in Sonic's world.

I literally just watched Shuffle.
He straight up followed them between the game boards and ***** with them, mind you, at the start of the game they yap about how the game boards are different parts of the Maginaryworld, the boards they go to are dream worlds, but they are on the verge of collapse and corruption. The Precious Stone, in which getting it will enable them to fix it, not only is he there, the manual straight up says they get followed by him as he impedes them, and that he wants the very thing that can mend the Maginary world. Mind you, no matter how you go about it, it ends with having the relevant knowledge.

Did he learn of the Stone beforehand? That would mean he knew of its base capabilities, and then witness the aftermath upon its shattering, which would give him the info needed to conclude it's Low 1-C nature. Or did he learn of it after and simply follow them? Then he sees it in real time, and sees the afermath of the Dream Stone doing what it do when obtained in full. Either way, by the time of Advanced, he would know what it was capable of. Though the fact that he was watching the stone and Void would grant him the relevant knowledge anyhow no matter the case.

The opposition needs to argue why the downgrade is more valid than then keeping things this way starting next post.

Because one is rooted in conjecture, assumptions, and layered discrediting, all for stuff that is excessively straightforward and face value statements.

If the majority of your arguments lead with "could be" not "is", we have a problem.

 

[Theuser789]

Wiki rules, ain't my fault. No verse is exempt. Do not derail, make a CRT.
I'm arguing what scales based on the info presented, relevant to the topic at hand. This accounts for Heroes, Shadow Generations, and Shuffle. I do not care if you think Infinite scales, go make a CRT for that or something idk.

What wikia rules? What the heck are you even talking about Infinite? Are you actually arguing with me or with a made-up boogeyman? This is about the current accepted variable tier of the emeralds. They way we treat it is if they're charged with positive energy, then the opponent scales to their full power. Lightman, Egg Wizard, these are all guys that scale to 1-C with this reasoning. So YOU need to stop derrailing about the Infinite argument that clearly traumatized you, and make a CRT to change this.

What?
That isn't how CRT's work lad, nor the burden of proof. You can't just say something and expect people to agree with you. Where's the proof? Where's the evidence?

You can't just say they are.

As an fyi, a downgrade due to lack of evidence, is still fine and well.

This is how CRTs go. You trying to playing the big authority by saying and making up rules, but saying "nuh uh" isn't an argument. Ironic you say "You can't just say something and expect people to agree with you" when that's what you've been doing. When you make a downgrade thread, you need to provide the reasons why what's currently accepted is wrong. The original downgrade claimed it was because of Shadow beating. Thankfully, you debunked it, so there's nothing against the downgrade. In fact, there's no lack of evidence, either. That's just you imposing your view-point as fact, too. What you love doing.

There's clear evidence of the emeralds being charged up. Eggman had doubts despite knowing the Time Eater. Clear evidence of 1-C. So you go debunk it, or leave.

I'm not going to explain the basic plot premise of the game to you.

What YOU need to explain is how Eggman knows the scope of Maginaryworld. It's on YOU. I hope you go ahead and explain it, instead of conceding you can't.

So he knows its power, cool. What's the argument again? That he actually doesn't know its power? Why does he want it then? That's rhetorical.

In the mistranslated american manual.

You are adding extra layers of interpretation that do not exist. It is a straightforward statement, and there is stuff he would be aware of anyhow invalidating that line of thought.

YOU are the one who needs to prove he knows the peak... which you haven't, btw. You can just go around and say your interpretation is more valid because you say so. Prove the downgrade or leave.

That's cool, I don't think I need to explain that Knuckles most certainly isn't Eggman though.

Yes, Knuckles isn't Eggman! Knuckles is the one who Lumina communicated to and spent the game searching for a way to stop Void. Eggman is the one who heard hearsays. YOU need to prove Eggman knows more than Knuckles here.

Wow, we're really piling up the things YOU need to prove but refuse to do so!

So... Nothing changes then? He's actively eyeing the Precious Stone because he's learned what it's capable of, a fact that simply playing the game would make abundantly clear. He has seen what it can do and the repercussions of it, even if the focus isn't on him, as he actively followed them and partook in bootleg Mario Party as a diet Bowser clone.

Despite this, come Advanced, he believes that the Chaos Emerald's, are but the strongest things he's seen still.
The worst part of this is.... That flatout says he's actually aware of Void and has been watching both Void and the Precious Stone, as in, he'd literally know about the Low 1-C slop.... That's actively more damning then a line saying he knows it's power, his ass be watching the thing+dude doing the feats.

Which is to say, this is arguing semantics, the actual relevant info remains the same, and I'd argue is actually better.

Except Eggman doesn't know the fullscope of the dreams. He was on Earth and simply heard a world of dreams was being destroyed. YOU need to prove Eggman knew Maginaryworld was a 5D structure rather than just a world of dreams. That's what Sonic and Co knew, after-all, which were directedly reported by the lady of dreams herself. Repeating the same mantras isn't an explanation fym. Just letting you know.

There's also no reason to assume so atm beyond conjecture. Post actual proof if you want that.

There is reason to assume so, accepeted reasons, in fact. The entire basis of variable tier, in fact. What you need to do is post the ACTUAL proof for the 5+ things you're claiming in a single post.

I literally just watched Shuffle.
He straight up followed them between the game boards and ***** with them, mind you, at the start of the game they yap about how the game boards are different parts of the Maginaryworld, the boards they go to are dream worlds, but they are on the verge of collapse and corruption. The Precious Stone, in which getting it will enable them to fix it, not only is he there, the manual straight up says they get followed by him as he impedes them, and that he wants the very thing that can mend the Maginary world. Mind you, no matter how you go about it, it ends with having the relevant knowledge.

Did he learn of the Stone beforehand? That would mean he knew of its base capabilities, and then witness the aftermath upon its shattering, which would give him the info needed to conclude it's Low 1-C nature. Or did he learn of it after and simply follow them? Then he sees it in real time, and sees the afermath of the Dream Stone doing what it do when obtained in full. Either way, by the time of Advanced, he would know what it was capable of. Though the fact that he was watching the stone and Void would grant him the relevant knowledge anyhow no matter the case.

Do you ACTUALLY know the reasoning for 5D Maginaryworld? Did you ACTUALLY check the scaling blogs? Maginaryworld isn't 5D just because it's a dream world. Fourth Dimensional Space is the actual 5D space in Maginaryworld. The thing even Knuckles didn't know. You need to prove Eggman knew about how Fourth Dimensional space works (having a bunch of dreams in it). All Eggman knows is that dreams are collapsing, which is only universal.

We KNOW he's just eyeing the stone, not that he knows everything about it. I sure hope you have PROOF of Eggman knowing about Fourth Dimensional Space. That's what this wikia is based on, evidence. Not just interpretations and suppositions. So far all you've done is just say your opinion as fact. You know how this wikia works, so you know you need more solid evidence for your downgrade attempts.

Because one is rooted in conjecture, assumptions, and layered discrediting, all for stuff that is excessively straightforward and face value statements.

Actually, one is simply keeping things as they are, ACCEPTED, while the other is simply making a narrative and hope people follow it, as they realize the 5D argument hasn't actually provided any evidence of the following:

The people in favor of a downgrade need to:
-Prove Overlord wasn't using the full power of the emeralds. This is currently what's accepted, so they need to prove why it is wrong.
-Prove Eggman knew the totality of Maginaryworld. Knuckles and Co. didn't despite being guided by Illumina.
-Prove Eggman knows the power of the Precioustone. All the Japanese version is saying he's eyeing Void and the stone for himself, nothing about him knowing it's power.
-Prove Overlord is superior to Maginaryworld. So far this is the only thing they've proved.

Since Shadow beating Overlord was argued to not be an anti-feat, people need to actually prove why the current scaling isn't valid then. This needs proof, not people just thinking it's better.

What I see right now is the 5D argument arguing one thing and expecting people to not realize everything they're failing to do. You need to prove why Overlord isn't 1-C, remember? That's how the wikia works. You can't just hope one singular narrative debunks it all.

If the majority of your arguments lead with "could be" not "is", we have a problem.

When, your arguments also end with a lot "let's ignore this". Let's ignore we don't have counter-arguments for Overlord being 1-C. Let's ignore the 5D Overlord can be applied to a bunch of stuff. Let's ignore Eggman knows about the Time Eater. Let's ignore Eggman doesn't know how Fourth Dimensional Space works. Let's just ignore everything and just push one agenda and just hope for the best.

Btw, as you know, this wikia works based on evidence. If you don't provide evidence that:

-Eggman knows about the Time Eater because of Generations, meaning he has seen 6D emeralds. Eggman still believes Overlord being beaten is slim even with these Time Eater destroying emeralds.

Is wrong, then I am not even replying. Posts that are just suppositions are derrailment, according to yourself. So I hope you properly DEBUNK this downgrade thread instead of thinking your opinion is enough, capiche?

 

[Da3ggman]

What wikia rules? What the heck are you even talking about Infinite? Are you actually arguing with me or with a made-up boogeyman? This is about the current accepted variable tier of the emeralds. They way we treat it is if they're charged with positive energy, then the opponent scales to their full power. Lightman, Egg Wizard, these are all guys that scale to 1-C with this reasoning. So YOU need to stop derrailing about the Infinite argument that clearly traumatized you, and make a CRT to change this.

This is how CRTs go. You trying to playing the big authority by saying and making up rules, but saying "nuh uh" isn't an argument. Ironic you say "You can't just say something and expect people to agree with you" when that's what you've been doing. When you make a downgrade thread, you need to provide the reasons why what's currently accepted is wrong. The original downgrade claimed it was because of Shadow beating. Thankfully, you debunked it, so there's nothing against the downgrade. In fact, there's no lack of evidence, either. That's just you imposing your view-point as fact, too. What you love doing.

There's clear evidence of the emeralds being charged up. Eggman had doubts despite knowing the Time Eater. Clear evidence of 1-C. So you go debunk it, or leave.

What YOU need to explain is how Eggman knows the scope of Maginaryworld. It's on YOU. I hope you go ahead and explain it, instead of conceding you can't.

In the mistranslated american manual.

YOU are the one who needs to prove he knows the peak... which you haven't, btw. You can just go around and say your interpretation is more valid because you say so. Prove the downgrade or leave.

Yes, Knuckles isn't Eggman! Knuckles is the one who Lumina communicated to and spent the game searching for a way to stop Void. Eggman is the one who heard hearsays. YOU need to prove Eggman knows more than Knuckles here.

Wow, we're really piling up the things YOU need to prove but refuse to do so!

Except Eggman doesn't know the fullscope of the dreams. He was on Earth and simply heard a world of dreams was being destroyed. YOU need to prove Eggman knew Maginaryworld was a 5D structure rather than just a world of dreams. That's what Sonic and Co knew, after-all, which were directedly reported by the lady of dreams herself. Repeating the same mantras isn't an explanation fym. Just letting you know.

There is reason to assume so, accepeted reasons, in fact. The entire basis of variable tier, in fact. What you need to do is post the ACTUAL proof for the 5+ things you're claiming in a single post.

Do you ACTUALLY know the reasoning for 5D Maginaryworld? Did you ACTUALLY check the scaling blogs? Maginaryworld isn't 5D just because it's a dream world. Fourth Dimensional Space is the actual 5D space in Maginaryworld. The thing even Knuckles didn't know. You need to prove Eggman knew about how Fourth Dimensional space works (having a bunch of dreams in it). All Eggman knows is that dreams are collapsing, which is only universal.

We KNOW he's just eyeing the stone, not that he knows everything about it. I sure hope you have PROOF of Eggman knowing about Fourth Dimensional Space. That's what this wikia is based on, evidence. Not just interpretations and suppositions. So far all you've done is just say your opinion as fact. You know how this wikia works, so you know you need more solid evidence for your downgrade attempts.

Actually, one is simply keeping things as they are, ACCEPTED, while the other is simply making a narrative and hope people follow it, as they realize the 5D argument hasn't actually provided any evidence of the following:

What I see right now is the 5D argument arguing one thing and expecting people to not realize everything they're failing to do. You need to prove why Overlord isn't 1-C, remember? That's how the wikia works. You can't just hope one singular narrative debunks it all.

When, your arguments also end with a lot "let's ignore this". Let's ignore we don't have counter-arguments for Overlord being 1-C. Let's ignore the 5D Overlord can be applied to a bunch of stuff. Let's ignore Eggman knows about the Time Eater. Let's ignore Eggman doesn't know how Fourth Dimensional Space works. Let's just ignore everything and just push one agenda and just hope for the best.

Btw, as you know, this wikia works based on evidence. If you don't provide evidence that:

-Eggman knows about the Time Eater because of Generations, meaning he has seen 6D emeralds. Eggman still believes Overlord being beaten is slim even with these Time Eater destroying emeralds.

Is wrong, then I am not even replying. Posts that are just suppositions are derrailment, according to yourself. So I hope you properly DEBUNK this downgrade thread instead of thinking your opinion is enough, capiche?

Dawg for the love of God, please chill out. You’ve been really aggressive this entire thread for literally no reason, and it’s getting to a boiling point.

 

[Theuser789]

It's two poys making each other hotter to the boiling point. But anyways I hope the Time Eater argument stops being ignored and actual EVIDENCE is posted.

 

[Omegabronic]

In the mistranslated american manual.

Mistranslated? dude, it isn't a translation to begin with, it is just another manual

 

[Omegabronic]

btw on the 1-C via Time Eater point, if we go with that, then... surely keeping the Low 1-C Evidence as supporting points isn't bad, right?

 

[Theuser789]

Mistranslated? dude, it isn't a translation to begin with, it is just another manual

Most of the english manuals are mistranslations or just SoA fanfiction of the game's plot.

btw on the 1-C via Time Eater point, if we go with that, then... surely keeping the Low 1-C Evidence as supporting points isn't bad, right?

Metal Overlord's current description is fine... but I wouldn't be stubbord enough to deny it. Although a 5D supporting feat for 1-C is kinda weird, but meh. I wouldn't be opposed to it.

 

[Omegabronic]

Most of the english manuals are mistranslations or just SoA fanfiction of the game's plot.

in this one it isn't a translation, nor is it fanfic, as it is describing the game's events very in sinc with what actually happens in said game

 

[Theuser789]

in this one it isn't a translation, nor is it fanfic, as it is describing the game's events very in sinc with what actually happens in said game

Japanese version always takes more priority. And it doesn't mention any sort of power.

 

[Theuser789]

btw on the 1-C via Time Eater point, if we go with that, then... surely keeping the Low 1-C Evidence as supporting points isn't bad, right?

Do you actually agree with 1-C btw?

 

[Chariot190]

The people in favor of a downgrade need to:
-Prove Overlord wasn't using the full power of the emeralds. This is currently what's accepted, so they need to prove why it is wrong.

Not enough evidence imo. Lack of evidence in and of itself is means to downgrade.

-Prove Eggman knew the totality of Maginaryworld. Knuckles and Co. didn't despite being guided by Illumina.

Because Knuckles dumb af, and apparently Eggman knew enough to follow them, go between world to world, actively see them being mended, was eyeing the dude doing the Low 1-C stuff and keeping tabs on the funny rock, all while having the goal of taking it for himself pretty evidently based on its capabilities, and this is all happening while he's there with them, not talking to them obviously, but he's seeing it all go down.

-Prove Eggman knows the power of the Precioustone. All the Japanese version is saying he's eyeing Void and the stone for himself, nothing about him knowing it's power.

He was literally there lad, he seen the game playout. The fact he actually had knowledge of Void is damning.

-Prove Overlord is superior to Maginaryworld. So far this is the only thing they've proved.

Doesn't need to be, just needs to be comparable to perceived value of the Emeralds, based on Eggman's knowledge of the Maginary world, Void, and the Precious stone.

Since Shadow beating Overlord was argued to not be an anti-feat, people need to actually prove why the current scaling isn't valid then. This needs proof, not people just thinking it's better.

It's not an anti-feat, it's also not a feat. That Shadow simply scales to MO itself as that Shadow has no info saying he's however strong.

What wikia rules? What the heck are you even talking about Infinite?

I don't know, why did you keep bringing him up and even now continuing about how it'd scale to others?

Are you actually arguing with me or with a made-up boogeyman?

I can go and systematically quote you if need be. I am simply replying to the words posted.

This is about the current accepted variable tier of the emeralds.

No, it's about if MO scales above a certain threshold. Do not strawman the argument.

They way we treat it is if they're charged with positive energy, then the opponent scales to their full power.

And now we aren't treating it like that because as luck would have it, nuance does exist.

Lightman, Egg Wizard, these are all guys that scale to 1-C with this reasoning.

Good for them.

So YOU need to stop derrailing about the Infinite argument that clearly traumatized you, and make a CRT to change this.

No need, this is that CRT. There doesn't exist a rule, anywhere, not on a blog, nor what's accepted that says we can not scale something to a seperate point between minimum Point A and maximum Point B if additional context exists that enables a more precise scaling.

Also, why are you instigating?

This is how CRTs go. You trying to playing the big authority by saying and making up rules, but saying "nuh uh" isn't an argument.

And that's how it would be going if you stopped this behavior.

Ironic you say "You can't just say something and expect people to agree with you" when that's what you've been doing.

And yet, people agree with me, how many agree with you?
Mayhaps, just maybe, people simply disagree with your claims?

When you make a downgrade thread, you need to provide the reasons why what's currently accepted is wrong.

Easy, not enough evidence.

The original downgrade claimed it was because of Shadow beating. Thankfully, you debunked it, so there's nothing against the downgrade.

Yep so why bring it up still?

In fact, there's no lack of evidence, either. That's just you imposing your view-point as fact, too. What you love doing.

There is though. You haven't actually at any point brought forth evidence that says they were, in fact, full power, or the Shadow does in fact scale above this, or that, or anything really.

There's clear evidence of the emeralds being charged up.

Yep, but to what degree?

Eggman had doubts despite knowing the Time Eater.

Does he though? Why is Modern Eggman surprised about it? Why is Eggman using something he already know would fail? That isn't how time travel works in Sonic.

He has the memories, retroactively, but from his perspective before the events of Generations, he would have no such insight. He would only gain those memories retroactively, as in, after Heroes from his perspective due to cause and effect.

This, is evidently, why he did it to begin with? Why do a whole plan with the Time Eater if he knew, objectively, it would fail and only cause problems and spout nonsense about things he would know wouldn't work, fail, or weren't actually true because of his paradoxical knowledge? That goes for everyone actually, why is Sonic and Tails shocked about things they'd already know was gonna happen?

Time paradoxes are weird. Gerald in Shadow Gens claims that time heals itself, and as long as pivotal moments aren't altered, the timeline will self-correct into the original path. This is notable, as what we see in the likes of Heroes, is pre-time altercation from our PoV. So this whole he would know, doesn't apply to games before Generations.

Clear evidence of 1-C. So you go debunk it, or leave.

Is that 4 I think?

Anyway, as above. That isn't how time travel works in Sonic, at least in this situation anyway, Eggman would not have the memory of Time Eater at the time of Heroes because he would only get that knowledge retroactively post Generations from his perceived perspective, as is the case with every character, such as Sonic and Tails.

What YOU need to explain is how Eggman knows the scope of Maginaryworld. It's on YOU. I hope you go ahead and explain it, instead of conceding you can't.

Dude was literally there, he watched everything go down.

In the mistranslated american manual.

Just saying, but the intent is obvious in that case, why else would he want it?
And I don't want t0 be that dude, but an excessive amount of Sonic's current scaling uses english media, as teritrary. The fact it was also translated like that at all, seems to point toward a specific context. The fact it was specified in eng, is damning, the fact the japanese says he's been keeping tabs on it AND Void, is even worse. Also that isn't what a mistranslation is.

And I don't want to be that dude 2 but.... Didn't quite a few people want say if the cut eng line was in, that would have been obvious what they were trying to convey and thus would have disagreed? Forget if it was you or others, but I don't quite care who it was.

YOU are the one who needs to prove he knows the peak... which you haven't, btw. You can just go around and say your interpretation is more valid because you say so.

Occam's razor.
We are told Eggman wants the thing because of its power in the ENG manual (Nothing implicates he's going in with a lack of knowledge either, it's just framed like he knows, assuming he doesn't actually know how strong it is, would require more assumptions).
He was there the whole game, he seen what it can do, what it was doing, etc, so even if he didn't know initially, he would by the end.
He was there while the worlds and space was collapsing because of it, so he knows at least that much.
He is stated to have been eyeing Void and the Stone in the Japanese manual, so he's at least aware of what Void was doing and how they connect to each other as he's been keeping tabs.

And yet, we're saying he actually doesn't know the full power of it? Why? He's aware of the thing that makes it Low 1-C to begin with? Are we really arguing "well he knows about it but he might not know it's AS strong as it actually is", why? What implicates that? You'd think they would have actually said that if that was the case and he was acting out of ignorance. But even then, the relevant scans happen after Shuffle, he didn't know then for some reason, he'd def know post-Shuffle.
The fact he has literally went "yep this is HDE" multiple times also isn't a very good sign, he's obviously capable of inferring or figuring out such things if we want to somehow discredit the more or less straightforward not really up for debate statements based on him just maybe being ignorant of such facts.

Prove the downgrade or leave.

That's 5.

Yes, Knuckles isn't Eggman! Knuckles is the one who Lumina communicated to and spent the game searching for a way to stop Void. Eggman is the one who heard hearsays. YOU need to prove Eggman knows more than Knuckles here.

And are any of those hearsays wrong? No? Then it doesn't matter. (Also... Is that even true? How would he have "heard" about it?).

Eggman knows of Void, Eggman knows of the Precious Stone, he was there the whole game, watching everything happen in real time, he presumbly knew even before the events of the game what was going on hence his goal of following them, not to **** with them, but to get the thing they were trying to fix (Given he shows up not even 5 minutes later).

Wow, we're really piling up the things YOU need to prove but refuse to do so!

We've already covered this last thread. This isn't news.

Except Eggman doesn't know the fullscope of the dreams. He was on Earth and simply heard a world of dreams was being destroyed.

And then he goes there, figures out what Void is, figures out what The Precious Stone is, aims for both. And then watches the game happen in real time as he plays the role of a nuisance.

Even if initially he didn't know, he would by the end. The fact he was seemingly aware ahead of time, is damning, the fact he knows about Void, is super daming.

YOU need to prove Eggman knew Maginaryworld was a 5D structure rather than just a world of dreams. That's what Sonic and Co knew, after-all, which were directedly reported by the lady of dreams herself. Repeating the same mantras isn't an explanation fym. Just letting you know.

He wouldn't even need to know, he'd just need to know what Void's deal was, or the Precioustone's deal, which, we're told on both accounts he did?

So the actual question is, why wouldn't he? And why would the game not make that clear? You're adding extra interpretation that goes against Occam's Razor.

This isn't getting into the fact Eggman can and has been able to infer HDE slop exceptionally quickly.

There is reason to assume so, accepeted reasons, in fact. The entire basis of variable tier, in fact. What you need to do is post the ACTUAL proof for the 5+ things you're claiming in a single post.

Evidence points to those claims. Your claims do not seem to be substaintiated. And yes, a variable tier exists, what of it? It can exist, we can also argue and showcase evidence that enables us to narrow down a specific tier beyond just absolute minimum and absolute peak.

Do you ACTUALLY know the reasoning for 5D Maginaryworld? Did you ACTUALLY check the scaling blogs?

Yep. Don't much appreciate the implication I haven't, let alone the fact I watched a 6 hour walkthrough of bootleg Mario Party just to get the basics down.

Maginaryworld isn't 5D just because it's a dream world. Fourth Dimensional Space is the actual 5D space in Maginaryworld.

That is cool. And also a strawman, nobody said making drams or dream worlds were 5D.

The thing even Knuckles didn't know.

Yes, Knuckles isn't the supergenius though with a knack for picking that stuff up, who was also keeping tabs on both the Precioustone, and even the Low 1-C character, seemingly before the events of the game even, not withstanding throughout the game itself.

You need to prove Eggman knew about how Fourth Dimensional space works (having a bunch of dreams in it). All Eggman knows is that dreams are collapsing, which is only universal.

Lad, you can literally see the 4D space from within the worlds due to the collapse of them as they fall apart. Eggman knows it exists, he can literally see it. And honestly if I had to wager, is how he goes between world to world as it isn't like the lil fae is helping him traverse between them like Sonic.

We KNOW he's just eyeing the stone, not that he knows everything about it.

He would by the end, and if he's been eyeing it, he'd obviously know what happened when it was broken no?

I sure hope you have PROOF of Eggman knowing about Fourth Dimensional Space.

He does in fact have eyes yes, and would also be the only logical method of him following the gang between dream worlds that we'd know of.

That's what this wikia is based on, evidence. Not just interpretations and suppositions.

Yep. Unfortunately, abscence of evidence isn't a rebuttal to the downgrade either.

So far all you've done is just say your opinion as fact. You know how this wikia works, so you know you need more solid evidence for your downgrade attempts.

And yet, for the most part, people agree it's sufficient. You might not agree, but that's on you.

Actually, one is simply keeping things as they are, ACCEPTED,

This is in bad taste, what we should aim for, is accuracy, not keep things how they are if there's problems. Whether or not it's accepted, doesn't even matter, they can have a variable tier, that doesn't mean we can't narrow it down in some cases.

while the other is simply making a narrative and hope people follow it, as they realize the 5D argument hasn't actually provided any evidence of the following:

The evidence presented is sound. Extra assumptions should be avoided if they aren't backed.

What I see right now is the 5D argument arguing one thing and expecting people to not realize everything they're failing to do.

A few things but sure, you do do.

You need to prove why Overlord isn't 1-C, remember? That's how the wikia works. You can't just hope one singular narrative debunks it all.

The abscence of evidence isn't evidence. If a character was rated 1-A off an assumption, and someone makes a CRT to downgrade, that is fine, they don't to prove the assumption is wrong, others need to bring forth why the assumption is solid.

When, your arguments also end with a lot "let's ignore this".

Yes, let's ignore conjecture or unrelated facets.

Let's ignore we don't have counter-arguments for Overlord being 1-C.

Abscence of evidence is not evidence.

Let's ignore the 5D Overlord can be applied to a bunch of stuff.

Nobody is ignoring that, if it can be scaled to other things, go ahead. But those would need to be discussed in a seperate CRT.

Let's ignore Eggman knows about the Time Eater.

He doesn't actually, at least, not when he talks about the stuff that matters. Simply playing Generations would make that evident they don't have past knowledge like that. I know you played Generations, so I'm not sure why you're arguing this.

Let's ignore Eggman doesn't know how Fourth Dimensional Space works.

He like, he literally knows it's a thing? He knows about the stone, he knows about Void even, he's keeping tabs on them, he wants them even, the eng manual even specifies it's due to its power.

To assume he doesn't know is just?

Let's just ignore everything and just push one agenda and just hope for the best.

Accusing people of agenda's again?

Btw, as you know, this wikia works based on evidence. If you don't provide evidence that:

Well aware, it'd be nice you could do the same though.

-Eggman knows about the Time Eater because of Generations, meaning he has seen 6D emeralds. Eggman still believes Overlord being beaten is slim even with these Time Eater destroying emeralds.

As above. That actually isn't true, at least, not from Modern's perspective.

Is wrong, then I am not even replying. Posts that are just suppositions are derrailment, according to yourself. So I hope you properly DEBUNK this downgrade thread instead of thinking your opinion is enough, capiche?

For someone who doesn't want to be reported, you're making it difficult for me to see that you're attempting to be civil.

 

[Chariot190]

Japanese version always takes more priority. And it doesn't mention any sort of power.

Priority, is not exemption, especially in an english heavy medium like Sonic.

If the Japanese contradicted it, sure, Japanese would take priority and english would be ignored. But all it is, is clarification.

 

[Omegabronic]

Japanese version always takes more priority. And it doesn't mention any sort of power.

but does one contradict the other? priority is one thing, discarding it completely is another matter, specially since this isn't a translation problem as both are different manuals for the same game

Do you actually agree with 1-C btw?

I mean, i never disagreed to begin with, i think it is a fine rating as is, i mainly proposed Low 1-C as the alternative of the bare minimum MO should be

 

[Theuser789]

Not enough evidence imo. Lack of evidence in and of itself is means to downgrade.

Because Knuckles dumb af, and apparently Eggman knew enough to follow them, go between world to world, actively see them being mended, was eyeing the dude doing the Low 1-C stuff and keeping tabs on the funny rock, all while having the goal of taking it for himself pretty evidently based on its capabilities, and this is all happening while he's there with them, not talking to them obviously, but he's seeing it all go down.

He was literally there lad, he seen the game playout. The fact he actually had knowledge of Void is damning.

Doesn't need to be, just needs to be comparable to perceived value of the Emeralds, based on Eggman's knowledge of the Maginary world, Void, and the Precious stone.

It's not an anti-feat, it's also not a feat. That Shadow simply scales to MO itself as that Shadow has no info saying he's however strong.

I don't know, why did you keep bringing him up and even now continuing about how it'd scale to others?

I can go and systematically quote you if need be. I am simply replying to the words posted.

No, it's about if MO scales above a certain threshold. Do not strawman the argument.

And now we aren't treating it like that because as luck would have it, nuance does exist.

Good for them.

No need, this is that CRT. There doesn't exist a rule, anywhere, not on a blog, nor what's accepted that says we can not scale something to a seperate point between minimum Point A and maximum Point B if additional context exists that enables a more precise scaling.

Also, why are you instigating?

And that's how it would be going if you stopped this behavior.

And yet, people agree with me, how many agree with you?
Mayhaps, just maybe, people simply disagree with your claims?

Easy, not enough evidence.

Yep so why bring it up still?

There is though. You haven't actually at any point brought forth evidence that says they were, in fact, full power, or the Shadow does in fact scale above this, or that, or anything really.

Yep, but to what degree?

Does he though? Why is Modern Eggman surprised about it? Why is Eggman using something he already know would fail? That isn't how time travel works in Sonic.

He has the memories, retroactively, but from his perspective before the events of Generations, he would have no such insight. He would only gain those memories retroactively, as in, after Heroes from his perspective due to cause and effect.

This, is evidently, why he did it to begin with? Why do a whole plan with the Time Eater if he knew, objectively, it would fail and only cause problems and spout nonsense about things he would know wouldn't work, fail, or weren't actually true because of his paradoxical knowledge? That goes for everyone actually, why is Sonic and Tails shocked about things they'd already know was gonna happen?

Time paradoxes are weird. Gerald in Shadow Gens claims that time heals itself, and as long as pivotal moments aren't altered, the timeline will self-correct into the original path. This is notable, as what we see in the likes of Heroes, is pre-time altercation from our PoV. So this whole he would know, doesn't apply to games before Generations.

Is that 4 I think?

Anyway, as above. That isn't how time travel works in Sonic, at least in this situation anyway, Eggman would not have the memory of Time Eater at the time of Heroes because he would only get that knowledge retroactively post Generations from his perceived perspective, as is the case with every character, such as Sonic and Tails.

Dude was literally there, he watched everything go down.

Just saying, but the intent is obvious in that case, why else would he want it?
And I don't want t0 be that dude, but an excessive amount of Sonic's current scaling uses english media, as teritrary. The fact it was also translated like that at all, seems to point toward a specific context. The fact it was specified in eng, is damning, the fact the japanese says he's been keeping tabs on it AND Void, is even worse. Also that isn't what a mistranslation is.

And I don't want to be that dude 2 but.... Didn't quite a few people want say if the cut eng line was in, that would have been obvious what they were trying to convey and thus would have disagreed? Forget if it was you or others, but I don't quite care who it was.

Occam's razor.
We are told Eggman wants the thing because of its power in the ENG manual (Nothing implicates he's going in with a lack of knowledge either, it's just framed like he knows, assuming he doesn't actually know how strong it is, would require more assumptions).
He was there the whole game, he seen what it can do, what it was doing, etc, so even if he didn't know initially, he would by the end.
He was there while the worlds and space was collapsing because of it, so he knows at least that much.
He is stated to have been eyeing Void and the Stone in the Japanese manual, so he's at least aware of what Void was doing and how they connect to each other as he's been keeping tabs.

And yet, we're saying he actually doesn't know the full power of it? Why? He's aware of the thing that makes it Low 1-C to begin with? Are we really arguing "well he knows about it but he might not know it's AS strong as it actually is", why? What implicates that? You'd think they would have actually said that if that was the case and he was acting out of ignorance. But even then, the relevant scans happen after Shuffle, he didn't know then for some reason, he'd def know post-Shuffle.
The fact he has literally went "yep this is HDE" multiple times also isn't a very good sign, he's obviously capable of inferring or figuring out such things if we want to somehow discredit the more or less straightforward not really up for debate statements based on him just maybe being ignorant of such facts.

That's 5.

And are any of those hearsays wrong? No? Then it doesn't matter. (Also... Is that even true? How would he have "heard" about it?).

Eggman knows of Void, Eggman knows of the Precious Stone, he was there the whole game, watching everything happen in real time, he presumbly knew even before the events of the game what was going on hence his goal of following them, not to **** with them, but to get the thing they were trying to fix (Given he shows up not even 5 minutes later).

We've already covered this last thread. This isn't news.

And then he goes there, figures out what Void is, figures out what The Precious Stone is, aims for both. And then watches the game happen in real time as he plays the role of a nuisance.

Even if initially he didn't know, he would by the end. The fact he was seemingly aware ahead of time, is damning, the fact he knows about Void, is super daming.

He wouldn't even need to know, he'd just need to know what Void's deal was, or the Precioustone's deal, which, we're told on both accounts he did?

So the actual question is, why wouldn't he? And why would the game not make that clear? You're adding extra interpretation that goes against Occam's Razor.

This isn't getting into the fact Eggman can and has been able to infer HDE slop exceptionally quickly.

Evidence points to those claims. Your claims do not seem to be substaintiated. And yes, a variable tier exists, what of it? It can exist, we can also argue and showcase evidence that enables us to narrow down a specific tier beyond just absolute minimum and absolute peak.

Yep. Don't much appreciate the implication I haven't, let alone the fact I watched a 6 hour walkthrough of bootleg Mario Party just to get the basics down.

That is cool. And also a strawman, nobody said making drams or dream worlds were 5D.

Yes, Knuckles isn't the supergenius though with a knack for picking that stuff up, who was also keeping tabs on both the Precioustone, and even the Low 1-C character, seemingly before the events of the game even, not withstanding throughout the game itself.

Lad, you can literally see the 4D space from within the worlds due to the collapse of them as they fall apart. Eggman knows it exists, he can literally see it. And honestly if I had to wager, is how he goes between world to world as it isn't like the lil fae is helping him traverse between them like Sonic.

He would by the end, and if he's been eyeing it, he'd obviously know what happened when it was broken no?

He does in fact have eyes yes, and would also be the only logical method of him following the gang between dream worlds that we'd know of.

Yep. Unfortunately, abscence of evidence isn't a rebuttal to the downgrade either.

And yet, for the most part, people agree it's sufficient. You might not agree, but that's on you.


This is in bad taste, what we should aim for, is accuracy, not keep things how they are if there's problems. Whether or not it's accepted, doesn't even matter, they can have a variable tier, that doesn't mean we can't narrow it down in some cases.

The evidence presented is sound. Extra assumptions should be avoided if they aren't backed.

A few things but sure, you do do.

The abscence of evidence isn't evidence. If a character was rated 1-A off an assumption, and someone makes a CRT to downgrade, that is fine, they don't to prove the assumption is wrong, others need to bring forth why the assumption is solid.

Yes, let's ignore conjecture or unrelated facets.

Abscence of evidence is not evidence.

Nobody is ignoring that, if it can be scaled to other things, go ahead. But those would need to be discussed in a seperate CRT.

He doesn't actually, at least, not when he talks about the stuff that matters. Simply playing Generations would make that evident they don't have past knowledge like that. I know you played Generations, so I'm not sure why you're arguing this.

He like, he literally knows it's a thing? He knows about the stone, he knows about Void even, he's keeping tabs on them, he wants them even, the eng manual even specifies it's due to its power.

To assume he doesn't know is just?

Accusing people of agenda's again?

Well aware, it'd be nice you could do the same though.

As above. That actually isn't true, at least, not from Modern's perspective.

For someone who doesn't want to be reported, you're making it difficult for me to see that you're attempting to be civil.

Look at that, 1857 words and NOT a SINGLE piece of evidence? Is that a new record? You yapped and yapped and didn't provide a SINGLE new thing. Just repeating yourself over and over again as if repeating your opinions is a fact! And worse! You made up a headcanon to discredit Generations! Not a single scan or link, just complete made-up headcanon disguised behing arrogance.

And if you're thinking of reporting this, why would you report yourself? This was me giving you a preview how you argue! Isn't it fun when a opponent doesn't bring anything new except vanglorizing his own opinions? Not so fun now, is it?

Anyways, since you didn't provide a single claim of evidence for your downgrade, you're not getting a proper reply from me. As you say, posting stuff without evidence is derrailing, and I don't want to derrail here, do we? I mean, you said twice you wouldn't but not to keen on preaching what you say, huh?

Anyways, in the end of Generations Classic Sonic learns a new move thanks to the help of Modern.


And recognizes Sonic in Forces.



So you're objectively completely wrong in your assumptions and headcanon! Classic Sonic clearly remembers Generations! How about that? Will you actually show scans debunking this? Or just be sassy and talk about how much you just now watched a playthrough of Generations and thus it isn't valid for some headcanon reason or another?

He has the memories, retroactively, but from his perspective before the events of Generations, he would have no such insight. He would only gain those memories retroactively, as in, after Heroes from his perspective due to cause and effect.

This is LITERALLY made up btw. No evidence, statement or scans. Literally you just spouting your opinion. It's really ironic in the previous post you said THIS:

Because one is rooted in conjecture, assumptions, and layered discrediting, all for stuff that is excessively straightforward and face value statements.

And now look at it. Discrediting straightforward and face value statements based on conjecture, assumptions and layered discrediting. Accuse others on what you do, I guess.

 

[Theuser789]

I mean, i never disagreed to begin with, i think it is a fine rating as is, i mainly proposed Low 1-C as the alternative of the bare minimum MO should be

Well, there's no need for that since Chariot debunked any reasoning or a downgrade. Keeping low 1-C now is just pure stubordness since we know the cast remembers Generations.

 

[Starsprite53]

Generations wasn't even a thing in early 2000s, why is this an argument?

 

[Theuser789]

Generations wasn't even a thing in early 2000s, why is this an argument?

Because it chronologically is before Heroes. Maginaryworld wouldn't be 5D either without lore from future games like the tesseract from IDW, too. Solaris wouldn't be 6D, etc and etc. Metal Overlord upscaling Maginaryworld would just be 2-B if we only use stuff that was a thing in the 2000s.

 

[Starsprite53]

Because it chronologically is before Heroes. Maginaryworld wouldn't be 5D either without lore from future games like the tesseract from IDW, too.

I mean one is a statement and the other is something that exists in the verse

 

[Theuser789]

I mean one is a statement and the other is something that exists in the verse

Yes? Overlord upscaling from Maginaryworld is a statement meanwhile the Time Eater is something that exists.

According to the wikia Maginaryworld is 5D is because of these reasons:

The place where all dreams<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_(Main_Continuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-121">[119]</a> from all other dimensions are assembled and become real<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_(Main_Continuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-122">[120]</a>, becoming universes/dream worlds shaped by one's desires and aspirations of both positive<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_(Main_Continuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-123">[121]</a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_(Main_Continuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-124">[122]</a> and negative influences<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_(Main_Continuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-125">[123]</a> depending upon the person.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/S...ontinuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-SShuf-126">[124]</a><a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/S...ontinuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-First-127">[note 3]</a> Thus the number of dreamworlds would be equivalent to the population of the rest of the multiverse (2-B, possibly 2-A), additionally Cyberspace would also be assembled in Maginaryworld due to the Ancient's dream of preserving their legacy with it<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_The_Hedgehog_(Main_Continuity)_Cosmology_Page#cite_note-128">[125]</a> and the Egg Field due to Dr. Eggman's dream to rewrite the world with it, due to the multiverse creating alternate realities based on possibilities, it would also exist innumerable, possibly infinite amounts of Cyberspaces and Egg Fields, making Maginaryworld scale to both on a larger scale (higher, possibly infinite Low 1-C/5-D).

I actually double disagree with Eggman in Shuffle knowing about 5-D Maginaryworld now that I looked into it. Ironically because of Chariot's reasons for dismissing Generations. Eggman clearly doesn't know about his own Egg Field of Cyberspace in the future post-Shuffle, so he doesn't know Maginaryworld can hold structures that high.

 

[Theuser789]

Yes? Overlord upscaling from Maginaryworld is a statement meanwhile the Time Eater is something that exists.

According to the wikia Maginaryworld is 5D is because of these reasons:

I actually double disagree with Eggman in Shuffle knowing about 5-D Maginaryworld now that I looked into it. Ironically because of Chariot's reasons for dismissing Generations. Eggman clearly doesn't know about his own Egg Field of Cyberspace in the future post-Shuffle, so he doesn't know Maginaryworld can hold structures that high.

In fact, before Chariot replies with another wall of text that adds almost no new arguments, this actually givens him an ultimatum. Either Chariot:

Discredits Generations because Classic Eggman can't possibly remember any new info because modern Eggman doesn't remember the Time Eater. Doing so means discrediting 5-D Maginaryworld since it's based on Cyberspace and Egg Field, things future Eggman didn't know about.

Or...

Accepts Generations for the reasons above, since to accept Eggman knows Maginaryworld is 5-D he has to know future information.

What a choice!

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Because it chronologically is before Heroes.

Wasn't Generations canonically after Colors? Pretty sure Eggman's explanation of how he found the Time Eater pretty much confirms this.

 

[Theuser789]

Wasn't Generations canonically after Colors? Pretty sure Eggman's explanation of how he found the Time Eater pretty much confirms this.

For CLASSIC characters. See the context, please.