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Sonic upgrades

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I said this in chat before, I am not using that to say it's consistent with High 4-C, but I am saying that it's clearly not the characters' limit and should not be treated as such.
 
..Can we focus on if the feat is even scalable to them before trying to debate if it's an outlier or not?
 
Yes, as stated above the evidence for the Emeralds being stronger than the blaster in the first place is dubious and speculative.
 
Cropfist said:
Unclechairman said:
The Chaos Emeralds are the series go-to plot devices. They're going to be inconsistent just from their role in the story, hence why discussions in-universe about their power use vague terminology and imagery.
Click to expand...
Does that really justify this being a one-time occurence that's supported by nothing else in the series?
Click to expand...
Maybe. Assuming this scales to the Emeralds, it's far from the most impressive things they might be scaled to (Time Eater, Egg Wizard, etc.). To my knowledge, the main reason Large Planet level is listed as their cap is because Super Sonic visibly exhausted himself against Perfect Dark Gaia, which has not happened against any other boss in the series (adding to that is the fact that in the 360/PS3 version of Unleashed, Dark Gaia is one of exactly three bosses in the series that has shown to be able to actually inflict damage on a Super form, and not just knock them back). Thus, it becomes hard to justify an upgrade in light of this, as Super Sonic was clearly pushed to his limits in this fight. But of course, you can count on the series ignoring this in later games and continuing to use the Chaos Emeralds to combat whatever big threat happens to show up, be they planet busters, star busters, or even universe busters.
 
Actually after thinking about it the emeralds being stronger than the blaster would make sense. It's one of the strongest objects in the verse in general, and if Eggman can make stuff such as the FEB he'd have no reason to pursue the emeralds unless they're stronger than what he can normally create.

The contradiction with Dark Gaia is still a major issue however.
 
That's what I meant by extrapolating from the general narrative and making an assumption based on it. They're not neccessarily bad assumptions, but are they enough to justify an upgrade? That is the question being posed.

I can see Dark Gaia keeping the Super forms from any major upgrades for quite a while.
 
It's an assumption, but it's a very logical assumption that makes sense within the context of the story. Why would a guy who can make large star level weapons seek out a large planet level power source soley for its power?

After reconsidering The Everlasting's point I think it would make sense to simply scale Dark Gaia to High 4-C Super Sonic. Like he said DG's feat was done while it was severly weakened by literally waking up, so large planet isn't its maximum.
 
dark gaia is the biggest issue all together...should we put as a possible in the tier?
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
should we put as a possible in the tier?
Click to expand...
This might be a good idea. There isn't exactly the most concrete of evidence supporting this, so it'd probably be best to put it as a possible high-end
 
For Dark Gaia I would suggest "At least 5-A (via feat), likely High 4-C (via scaling to Super Sonic)" while the Super Forms just get High 4-C large star.
 
I would suggest that it be put as only a possible high end for the Supers as well, since as I said, there isn't the firmest evidence supporting this.
 
I keep hearing that the Gaia that performed the 5-A feat was a weaker form.

Is that the case? And if so, then I do not see why the highest transformation can't be scaled to Super Sonic without issues.
 
It's not Dark Gaia and whether or not it scales to the Super forms that I'm concerned about.

It's the somewhat flimsy logic behind this upgrade, which is why I keep saying it should be left as a possible high-end.
 
What flimsy logic would that be?

I agree with Ever and Crop that it would be kinda silly to assume Eggman can create weapons thousands of times stronger than the main power source he so desperately sought out for in the first place.
 
An interpretation that is much more reasonable and likelier than the interpretation that the main power source in the series that everyone seeks for and is in awe of its power is actually not even 1/6000 times as strong as a machine Eggman made just so he could help get those vastly inferior emeralds.
 
However that's just how I feel. Even if not exactly established, I don't think it would make much sense within the story if Egg Blaster was so immensely stronger than the emeralds.

But if the majority of people think High 4-C isn't consistant as a whole for the Emeralds, or want that listed as a high end while keeping the 5-A low end, then I guess I am fine with that.
 
I'm with Ryu on this, if Eggman is constantly trying to go after the Chaos Emeralds, why would he when he can build a weapon thousands of times stronger than it?
 
that would have made no sense if eggman still needed the emeralds no that i think about it....so yeah super could be like At least 5-A possibly High 4-C (due to eggman still needing them even after making the FEC which can destroy a star system) in turn upgrades some characters like metal overlord due to scaling
 
I just want it listed as a high end. I'm not even arguing that this interpretation is invalid, just that since nothing explicitly states that the Emeralds are stronger, it should be treated as a possibility.
 
If we're going to not make them straight up High 4-C, I think "likely" would be more appropriate than "possibly" as Emeralds being stronger makes a lot more sense.
 
Everyone seems to agree on "Likely High 4-C" so the changes should be applicable. Before conclusion however I have two questions:

1) Would this affect speed? The FEB is 200 million c and the emeralds are a stronger source, so would they grant even higher speed?

2) How would this affect the Hyper Forms? "Likely 4-B" for absolutely dwarfing the Chaos Emeralds?
 
1) It seems to affect it cause the hyper forms speed was based on it too

2) I guess so considering it is a much more power source
 
For your first question, the Blaster is a focused beam, not an object. It projects power in the form of energy, not increased speed. I don't see how you can justify scaling the speed of the Super forms to it unless they successfully dodge or outspeed something similar.

For your second question, depends on how close the results of this calc and the minimum for tier 4-B are.
 
The Blaster isn't the beam itself though, but an overall generally superior object should be able to grant attack (or movement in this case) of higher speed. I will admit this is speculative however and I'm willing to conced should evidence against this be provided.

The Egg Blaster was 1.374 foe and SS starts at 22.4 foe, but note that the emeralds should be much stronger and the Super Emeralds make the Chaos Emeralds look like a complete joke in comparison.
 
It is speculative. A bit too speculative for me. I don't think there's anything similar to the FEB in the games, so the grounds for the upgrade come solely from the Emeralds (and thus the Super forms) having greater output overall. Yet if DBZ is any indicator, speed does not necessarily increase at the same rate as power, and Super Sonic is not a beam of energy like the FEB is.

Roughly twenty times, huh? I'd put that as a "possibly".
 
MSS could be very inconsistent with the emeralds, I think it would be safer to go with the large star calc.
 
Cropfist said:
MSS could be very inconsistent with the emeralds, I think it would be safer to go with the large star calc.
Click to expand...
I agree, the villains will also get upgraded by that.
 
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