Dreams of an Overlord (Metal Overlord Tiering CRT)

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

For CLASSIC characters. See the context, please.

I see. It was just weirded weirdly to me, I suppose. Carry on.

 

[Omegabronic]

For CLASSIC characters. See the context, please.

Which only remember things retroatively after Gens takes place, not before, else... why doesn't Eggman remember Shadow in Adventure 2? Or the Time Eater? Or literally any of the future insight he got?

 

[Chariot190]

Look at that, 1857 words and NOT a SINGLE piece of evidence?

I assumed you played the game or at least watched it? It wasn't exactly a niche piece of evidence.

Is that a new record? You yapped and yapped and didn't provide a SINGLE new thing. Just repeating yourself over and over again as if repeating your opinions is a fact! And worse!

Hmm.

You made up a headcanon to discredit Generations! Not a single scan or link, just complete made-up headcanon disguised behing arrogance.

I actually asked several users ahead of time, and was given that info, which corroborated what I remembered from the game itself, in that Eggman, Sonic, and Tails, all objectively do not have the memories of what their classic iterations gone though in regards to that specific game. At least not till later anyway, if ever.

But, if they do not have that knowledge at that time, they most certainly did not in the time of Heroes, and thus, your argument, is completely debunked, it's based on a false premise.

And if you're thinking of reporting this, why would you report yourself?

More for the fact you're exceedingly toxic. Something you've been told to cut out thrice, by staff. And have continued to do so without even attempting to chill.

This was me giving you a preview how you argue! Isn't it fun when a opponent doesn't bring anything new except vanglorizing his own opinions? Not so fun now, is it?

Wait, so you're deliberately arguing in a way you perceive as bad? We have rules against that.

Anyways, since you didn't provide a single claim of evidence for your downgrade, you're not getting a proper reply from me.

And yet here we are, but if you want scans for basic premises, fine. I will do so. Anyway, I don't really think i want a reply from you to begin with. You've been given ample chances to be chill, you refuse to. You're tying my hands here dude.

As you say, posting stuff without evidence is derrailing, and I don't want to derrail here, do we?

Then why are you derailing? Also I didn't think I had to post evidence Eggman is aware of 4D space given.... The evidence is the entire game? Basic gameplay stuff like 4D space being visible and accessible from every Game Board so Eggman would evidently know of it given he can literally see it, and while not concrete, presumably, is how he goes between the worlds (Because how else would he?), is proof that he's aware of it being a thing.

Like it isn't exactly hidden.

And yes, he, of course, is in fact actually there. Just shows up, constantly, there's many events, minigames, and more involving him.

I mean, you said twice you wouldn't but not to keen on preaching what you say, huh?

You keep complaining how your arguments get ignored, now you don't want a reply? Or are you talking about reporting? Do you want to be reported? You've been giving ample reason to. I don't understand you lad.

Anyways, in the end of Generations Classic Sonic learns a new move thanks to the help of Modern.


And recognizes Sonic in Forces.



So you're objectively completely wrong in your assumptions and headcanon! Classic Sonic clearly remembers Generations! How about that? Will you actually show scans debunking this?

What? Nobody is saying Classic wouldn't remember? Of course they do. the problem, is assuming Modern would remember retroactively, which is demonstrably proven false in game.

Your argument hinges on the fact that Eggman, in the time of Heroes, would have his memory involving Time Eater, and thus of Time Eater tier Emeralds. But, that simply isn't true. And thus, Eggman's statements can't account for Time Eater in games preceeding it.

I am saying that doesn't check out, and is in fact, objectively, demonstrably, not up for debate. It is simply not true. We can outright confirm this in the very game itself.

We know the modern characters didn't have the memory of the classic iterations who experienced Generations. We know this because they themselves had no idea what was going on. Why would Sonic and Tails be confused? They'd be like "oh so this is when the time eater stuff happens", would already know exactly what's going on, wouldn't be shocked at meeting the Classics, etc. And Eggman himself is doubly evident as why would he yap and do a thing he would 100% know fail? And then talk and act like this is new.

No, simply playing the game makes it self-evident, they can't have this knowledge, they objectively don't. You want scans and examples, you will get some.

But let's list off a few reasons.

Modern Tails has no idea what Time Eater even is, or what it's doing. This, makes no sense because by the end Classic Tails knows exactly what it is and what was doing, and thus, according to the argument, Modern Tails would have memory of that. This also leads into a bunch of scenes where Modern Sonic has no idea what's going on or even where he is and is just confused, even though if he had Classic Sonic's memory, he would know everything already.

Modern Sonic is confused about his "reflection", and then is utterly baffled how there's another "him". This makes no sense, if he had the memory of Generations via his Classic self, he wouldn't be confused, he would know exactly what's going on, because he already lived through it from the other perspective, he would know that isn't a reflection, he would not be shocked that there's two of him because he would have already lived through it.

Sonic straight up says he can't believe there's two of him, and doesn't know why there is. Additionally Modern Tails exclaims he thinks he's figured it out with Classic Tails saying the same thing, and explaining there's time-space fuckery involved. This makes absolutely no sense if they have those memories. as Sonic would not only believe it, because he's literally experienced already, but he wouldn't not know why, because his Classic Self is standing right there listening to the explanation, as in, he would have already lived that exact instance, and thus wouldn't be confused, not know what's going on, and need an explanation. To tie into the additional point both Modern and Classic Tails "figuring it out", makes no sense. Because by pure virtue of Classic Tails saying he thinks he's figured it out, means Modern Tails couldn't have just figured it out if he had Classic Tails' memory, as he would have figured it out as Classic, and thus already wnet into this knowing exactly what's going on and thus no need to "figure it out" twice. This is even worse as Modern Tails describes the Time Eater as "that big thing" and doesn't know what it is yet, even though Classic Tails by the end of the game objectively knows in detail what it is, so modern Tails shouldn't be completely unaware of it. Thi also bodes poorly for Eggman retaining the memory of Time Eater retroactively in Heroes, if Tails objectively and demonstrably did not.
And that's just the main stuff for that scene, like when Classic Tails goes "Where'd it go?" and Modern Tails just shrugs because he doesn't know, but he would know if he had that memory because Classic Tails figures out where it went eventually, so modern Tails would have that knowledge.

Later again, Modern Tails says he "thinks" he's pieced together more of what's happening alongside Classic Tails. And then explains what's happening to Classic and Modern Sonic. Again, this makes no sense if they had those memories.
Why would Modern Tails need to figure it out? And why is he framing it like he's only a bit sure? He would know, 100% that's the case, long before this ever even happened. To add onto that, he had to work with his Classic self to figure more out, but why? He would know everything his Classic self does according to this argument? Which then circles back into Classic Tails heard the explanation, and was even part of it, and if modern Tails has the memories of that specific Classic Tails, he would, of course, have memory of that explanation and thus never need to figure it out to begin with. This also goes for both Sonics, why is Modern Sonic confused? Why doesn't he know what's going on as both he and modern Tails exclaim many times at the start of the game? They've heard the explanation through their past self's, so the would know all this, but they objectively do not. They don't have that memory. They also still don't know what Time Eater is, even though they would, and that's the whole crux of this argument in that they would.

Eggman gets his ass kicked and says he was supposed to win this time. Furthermore, modern Tails exclaims he thought Eggman was kidnapped by "that big thing", doesn't understand what's going, and is confused. This makes no sense. Eggman would 100% know he wasn't going to beat Sonic there if he had Classic Eggman's memory of the events of Generation, as both Eggman's fight Sonic again later. Tails is, again, especially bad, if he had the memory of Classic Tails, he would know why exactly there's two Eggman's, he would not know why Eggman is there even though he was said to be have kidnapped by the Time Eater, who he still doesn't know what it is. Of course, Classic Tails learns of all this by the end, so if Modern Tails had that memory, he wouldn't "not know why", he would know exactly what's going on. Which leads into the next scene.

And this is just.... Jesus. Ok so to unpack only some of this.
All 4 of the gang (Classic and Modern Sonic and Tails) is there.
Modern Sonic/Tails audibly voices confusion on how he's even there, and Eggman shows and explains. This makes no sense, because Classic is right there and is also being explained to, so Modern, if he had that memory, would already know why and not be shocked and confused.
Then we get into the actual Time Eater yap.

Eggman discovered Time Eater by accident, so he was not aware of it.
He flatout says he had to discover what it can do, meaning he didn't already know so argument over, but ignoring that.
He says he then had the brilliant idea for his plan to delete his past defeats, meaning he wasn't aware of this plan he would have.

This is all problematic, because Classic Eggman is right there, not only is he right there, but he already knows all this info. Meaning, Eggman can't have Robotnik's memories of Generations, because if he had them, he would not have accidentally stumbled upon Time Eater, he would have already known about it. He would not have had to figure out what it could do, because he would have known exactly what it could do already. He would not have came up with a plan based on his newfound discovery, because he would have already known about the plan in detail because Classic Eggman actively helped with it.

Then there's the fact that, Modern Sonic/Tails still talk as if this all news to them, despite Classic self being right there, meaning they would know this already. Or the fact Eggman is explaining all this, and the segues into why he's gonna win, even though he would objectively know for a fact he's going to lose, if he had the memory of it. Like there's just so much hard confirmed instances of them not knowing that it's damning. Oh and Modern Eggman exclaiming everyone showing up doesn't matter, yet it's why they lost because they unpacked the Chaos Emeralds, leading directly to their defeat, which Robotnik witnessed, and thus Modern, if he remembered that retroactively, would 100% know it matters.

Not done though. This is odd.

And then we have the double Eggman void scene. Why is Modern Eggman freaking out? He would already know how to get out, because they do, in fact, escape eventually, so he would have that memory through Classic. Funnily, Classic calls Eggman out on his awful plan, and voices active disdain for it. Modern points out he'll have that plan too, but Classic Eggman says he's going to actively try to forget it. Which is, ironically, the only piece of evidence in the whole game they might retain memory.
But obviously, there's an issue, if Classic Eggman actively forgot everything on purpose, Modern Eggman would not have that knowledge to account for it in Heroes or previous games. So either way.

That's not the case anyway, Sonic and Tails all but confirm they don't have the memory of their classic selve's (in regards to Generations), but even if they did, the fact Robotnik hated the plan so much after they failed to the point he makes it clear he never wants to do it, and will try to forget the plan, makes it so Time Eater can't be used retroactively for Eggman's knowledge anyway.
As an fyi, that is only a small fraction of why it's impossible, I could be here all night if I sent every example.

Or just be sassy and talk about how much you just now watched a playthrough of Generations and thus it isn't valid for some headcanon reason or another?

I played it, and then asked multiple people for input so knock it off.
It isn't valid because it's straight up not true. Also you need to stop trying to undermine people, I've played Generations, but even if I didn't, that has no bearing on my argument if it's actually the case.

For reference it's mostly spin offs I haven't played like Dark Chronicles, Sonic Rush, racing stuff (Not R tho), whatever. I've played the majority of mainline titles, and a few side stuff like 3D Blast. Not that it matters at all, but ya know.

This is LITERALLY made up btw. No evidence, statement or scans. Literally you just spouting your opinion. It's really ironic in the previous post you said

Because he objectively doesn't?

Can you explain why Modern Eggman acts the way he does? Can you explain why Sonic and Tails objectively aren't aware of things they would be if they had those memories?

No, you can't, because they simply don't. Btw that argument was to your benefit, the alternative is that they never get said memories retroactively, and there's weird timeline stuff going on to where the Modern iterations never develop the memory of the crossover time travel stuff. Also would like to mention that was the general verdict I got when I inquired with Sonic goons. I can post the Gerald yap,


Here's the thing I mentioned. Gerald himself says that time basically course corrects as long as major events don't get skewed. This was for your benefit, by the way, because that interpretation would enable them to at least gain the memory after the game retroactively, but if we aren't going with that, then they simply never do.

THIS:

And now look at it. Discrediting straightforward and face value statements based on conjecture, assumptions and layered discrediting.

Your argument is objectively false, Modern Eggman does not have the knowledge of Time Eater circa Heroes.

Accuse others on what you do, I guess.

You know lad, for someone who, both threads, has done nothing but insult, accuse and slander others, you're doing a fine job digging yourself deeper.

In fact, before Chariot replies with another wall of text that adds almost no new arguments, this actually givens him an ultimatum. Either Chariot:

Or maybe we just go with what's actually the case.

Discredits Generations because Classic Eggman can't possibly remember any new info because modern Eggman doesn't remember the Time Eater.

He objectively isn't aware of Time Eater. This is not up for debate.

Doing so means discrediting 5-D Maginaryworld since it's based on Cyberspace and Egg Field, things future Eggman didn't know about.

No? Eggman doesn't need to know about those to know about 5-D Maginaryworld. The Maginaryworld is still 5D. It's still a HDE space with worlds embedded in it. This is something he knows, this is something he straight up sees.

That is we, as the wiki have it rated that way. But Eggman himself? He knows what the Maginaryworld is, whether it's 3D, 4D or ten billion D, he would know, because he knows what it encompasses.

Accepts Generations for the reasons above, since to accept Eggman knows Maginaryworld is 5-D he has to know future information.

Why would we accept blatantly false information? And no, he doesn't need to know that information. He doesn't need to know about Uni A, to also know Uni B is a Uni for example.

What a choice!

Yes and it's an easy one. Eggman doesn't know Generations stuff objectively because that's what the game shows and even says. And Eggman knows what the Maginaryworld is, knows what the 4D space is, and even knows about the Precioustone, Void, and so forth.

In fact he just flatout watches everything they do at all times, down to where he knows the collective amount of tile spaces they land on the instant they do, among other things.

And the ENG manual, like it or not, clarifies he's aware of its power. He doesn't need to know about these other 4D-5D spaces, if he knows about this 5D space and is in it and is keeping tabs on all the relevant stuff with a teritrary statement even.

The only argument that could be made is, even though Eggman knows about everything involved more or less, and actively partakes, messes around, and is aiming for such things, he simply doesn't know that dimension is 5D, for some reason, despite having the capability to infer such things multiple times through out the franchise with little, if any, issue. Which honestly, doesn't make sense, the eng manual makes it clear he knows the power of it and that's why he wants it, and even if he didn't initially, he would know by the end, and thus, in time for Heroes.

So, in the end, not only have I replied to your Time Eater argument, and gave evidence for it, you haven't given a thing to prove any of your recent claims, beyond that very Time Eater argument which is provably false. Your argument now is essentially Eggman just doesn't know the scope of Maginaryspace, despite being there, having all the relevant info, and so on and so forth.

Are we done? Can we finally move on?

 

[Theuser789]

Which only remember things retroatively after Gens takes place, not before, else... why doesn't Eggman remember Shadow in Adventure 2? Or the Time Eater? Or literally any of the future insight he got?

Omega, are you being a rat right now? You LITERALLY used Sonic fighting the Time Eater as proof he could use tier 1 power of the emeralds. I can get the post right now. I am not entertaining this.

I assumed you played the game or at least watched it? It wasn't exactly a niche piece of evidence.

Hmm.

I actually asked several users ahead of time, and was given that info, which corroborated what I remembered from the game itself, in that Eggman, Sonic, and Tails, all objectively do not have the memories of what their classic iterations gone though in regards to that specific game. At least not till later anyway, if ever.

But, if they do not have that knowledge at that time, they most certainly did not in the time of Heroes, and thus, your argument, is completely debunked, it's based on a false premise.



More for the fact you're exceedingly toxic. Something you've been told to cut out thrice, by staff. And have continued to do so without even attempting to chill.

Wait, so you're deliberately arguing in a way you perceive as bad? We have rules against that.

And yet here we are, but if you want scans for basic premises, fine. I will do so. Anyway, I don't really think i want a reply from you to begin with. You've been given ample chances to be chill, you refuse to. You're tying my hands here dude.

Then why are you derailing? Also I didn't think I had to post evidence Eggman is aware of 4D space given.... The evidence is the entire game? Basic gameplay stuff like 4D space being visible and accessible from every Game Board so Eggman would evidently know of it given he can literally see it, and while not concrete, presumably, is how he goes between the worlds (Because how else would he?), is proof that he's aware of it being a thing.

Like it isn't exactly hidden.

And yes, he, of course, is in fact actually there. Just shows up, constantly, there's many events, minigames, and more involving him.


You keep complaining how your arguments get ignored, now you don't want a reply? Or are you talking about reporting? Do you want to be reported? You've been giving ample reason to. I don't understand you lad.

What? Nobody is saying Classic wouldn't remember? Of course they do. the problem, is assuming Modern would remember retroactively, which is demonstrably proven false in game.

Your argument hinges on the fact that Eggman, in the time of Heroes, would have his memory involving Time Eater, and thus of Time Eater tier Emeralds. But, that simply isn't true. And thus, Eggman's statements can't account for Time Eater in games preceeding it.

I am saying that doesn't check out, and is in fact, objectively, demonstrably, not up for debate. It is simply not true. We can outright confirm this in the very game itself.

We know the modern characters didn't have the memory of the classic iterations who experienced Generations. We know this because they themselves had no idea what was going on. Why would Sonic and Tails be confused? They'd be like "oh so this is when the time eater stuff happens", would already know exactly what's going on, wouldn't be shocked at meeting the Classics, etc. And Eggman himself is doubly evident as why would he yap and do a thing he would 100% know fail? And then talk and act like this is new.

No, simply playing the game makes it self-evident, they can't have this knowledge, they objectively don't. You want scans and examples, you will get some.

But let's list off a few reasons.

Modern Tails has no idea what Time Eater even is, or what it's doing. This, makes no sense because by the end Classic Tails knows exactly what it is and what was doing, and thus, according to the argument, Modern Tails would have memory of that. This also leads into a bunch of scenes where Modern Sonic has no idea what's going on or even where he is and is just confused, even though if he had Classic Sonic's memory, he would know everything already.

Modern Sonic is confused about his "reflection", and then is utterly baffled how there's another "him". This makes no sense, if he had the memory of Generations via his Classic self, he wouldn't be confused, he would know exactly what's going on, because he already lived through it from the other perspective, he would know that isn't a reflection, he would not be shocked that there's two of him because he would have already lived through it.

Sonic straight up says he can't believe there's two of him, and doesn't know why there is. Additionally Modern Tails exclaims he thinks he's figured it out with Classic Tails saying the same thing, and explaining there's time-space fuckery involved. This makes absolutely no sense if they have those memories. as Sonic would not only believe it, because he's literally experienced already, but he wouldn't not know why, because his Classic Self is standing right there listening to the explanation, as in, he would have already lived that exact instance, and thus wouldn't be confused, not know what's going on, and need an explanation. To tie into the additional point both Modern and Classic Tails "figuring it out", makes no sense. Because by pure virtue of Classic Tails saying he thinks he's figured it out, means Modern Tails couldn't have just figured it out if he had Classic Tails' memory, as he would have figured it out as Classic, and thus already wnet into this knowing exactly what's going on and thus no need to "figure it out" twice. This is even worse as Modern Tails describes the Time Eater as "that big thing" and doesn't know what it is yet, even though Classic Tails by the end of the game objectively knows in detail what it is, so modern Tails shouldn't be completely unaware of it. Thi also bodes poorly for Eggman retaining the memory of Time Eater retroactively in Heroes, if Tails objectively and demonstrably did not.
And that's just the main stuff for that scene, like when Classic Tails goes "Where'd it go?" and Modern Tails just shrugs because he doesn't know, but he would know if he had that memory because Classic Tails figures out where it went eventually, so modern Tails would have that knowledge.

Later again, Modern Tails says he "thinks" he's pieced together more of what's happening alongside Classic Tails. And then explains what's happening to Classic and Modern Sonic. Again, this makes no sense if they had those memories.
Why would Modern Tails need to figure it out? And why is he framing it like he's only a bit sure? He would know, 100% that's the case, long before this ever even happened. To add onto that, he had to work with his Classic self to figure more out, but why? He would know everything his Classic self does according to this argument? Which then circles back into Classic Tails heard the explanation, and was even part of it, and if modern Tails has the memories of that specific Classic Tails, he would, of course, have memory of that explanation and thus never need to figure it out to begin with. This also goes for both Sonics, why is Modern Sonic confused? Why doesn't he know what's going on as both he and modern Tails exclaim many times at the start of the game? They've heard the explanation through their past self's, so the would know all this, but they objectively do not. They don't have that memory. They also still don't know what Time Eater is, even though they would, and that's the whole crux of this argument in that they would.

Eggman gets his ass kicked and says he was supposed to win this time. Furthermore, modern Tails exclaims he thought Eggman was kidnapped by "that big thing", doesn't understand what's going, and is confused. This makes no sense. Eggman would 100% know he wasn't going to beat Sonic there if he had Classic Eggman's memory of the events of Generation, as both Eggman's fight Sonic again later. Tails is, again, especially bad, if he had the memory of Classic Tails, he would know why exactly there's two Eggman's, he would not know why Eggman is there even though he was said to be have kidnapped by the Time Eater, who he still doesn't know what it is. Of course, Classic Tails learns of all this by the end, so if Modern Tails had that memory, he wouldn't "not know why", he would know exactly what's going on. Which leads into the next scene.

And this is just.... Jesus. Ok so to unpack only some of this.
All 4 of the gang (Classic and Modern Sonic and Tails) is there.
Modern Sonic/Tails audibly voices confusion on how he's even there, and Eggman shows and explains. This makes no sense, because Classic is right there and is also being explained to, so Modern, if he had that memory, would already know why and not be shocked and confused.
Then we get into the actual Time Eater yap.

Eggman discovered Time Eater by accident, so he was not aware of it.
He flatout says he had to discover what it can do, meaning he didn't already know so argument over, but ignoring that.
He says he then had the brilliant idea for his plan to delete his past defeats, meaning he wasn't aware of this plan he would have.

This is all problematic, because Classic Eggman is right there, not only is he right there, but he already knows all this info. Meaning, Eggman can't have Robotnik's memories of Generations, because if he had them, he would not have accidentally stumbled upon Time Eater, he would have already known about it. He would not have had to figure out what it could do, because he would have known exactly what it could do already. He would not have came up with a plan based on his newfound discovery, because he would have already known about the plan in detail because Classic Eggman actively helped with it.

Then there's the fact that, Modern Sonic/Tails still talk as if this all news to them, despite Classic self being right there, meaning they would know this already. Or the fact Eggman is explaining all this, and the segues into why he's gonna win, even though he would objectively know for a fact he's going to lose, if he had the memory of it. Like there's just so much hard confirmed instances of them not knowing that it's damning. Oh and Modern Eggman exclaiming everyone showing up doesn't matter, yet it's why they lost because they unpacked the Chaos Emeralds, leading directly to their defeat, which Robotnik witnessed, and thus Modern, if he remembered that retroactively, would 100% know it matters.

Not done though. This is odd.

And then we have the double Eggman void scene. Why is Modern Eggman freaking out? He would already know how to get out, because they do, in fact, escape eventually, so he would have that memory through Classic. Funnily, Classic calls Eggman out on his awful plan, and voices active disdain for it. Modern points out he'll have that plan too, but Classic Eggman says he's going to actively try to forget it. Which is, ironically, the only piece of evidence in the whole game they might retain memory.
But obviously, there's an issue, if Classic Eggman actively forgot everything on purpose, Modern Eggman would not have that knowledge to account for it in Heroes or previous games. So either way.

That's not the case anyway, Sonic and Tails all but confirm they don't have the memory of their classic selve's (in regards to Generations), but even if they did, the fact Robotnik hated the plan so much after they failed to the point he makes it clear he never wants to do it, and will try to forget the plan, makes it so Time Eater can't be used retroactively for Eggman's knowledge anyway.
As an fyi, that is only a small fraction of why it's impossible, I could be here all night if I sent every example.


I played it, and then asked multiple people for input so knock it off.
It isn't valid because it's straight up not true. Also you need to stop trying to undermine people, I've played Generations, but even if I didn't, that has no bearing on my argument if it's actually the case.

For reference it's mostly spin offs I haven't played like Dark Chronicles, Sonic Rush, racing stuff (Not R tho), whatever. I've played the majority of mainline titles, and a few side stuff like 3D Blast. Not that it matters at all, but ya know.

Because he objectively doesn't?

Can you explain why Modern Eggman acts the way he does? Can you explain why Sonic and Tails objectively aren't aware of things they would be if they had those memories?

No, you can't, because they simply don't. Btw that argument was to your benefit, the alternative is that they never get said memories retroactively, and there's weird timeline stuff going on to where the Modern iterations never develop the memory of the crossover time travel stuff. Also would like to mention that was the general verdict I got when I inquired with Sonic goons. I can post the Gerald yap,


Here's the thing I mentioned. Gerald himself says that time basically course corrects as long as major events don't get skewed. This was for your benefit, by the way, because that interpretation would enable them to at least gain the memory after the game retroactively, but if we aren't going with that, then they simply never do.

Your argument is objectively false, Modern Eggman does not have the knowledge of Time Eater circa Heroes.

You know lad, for someone who, both threads, has done nothing but insult, accuse and slander others, you're doing a fine job digging yourself deeper.

Or maybe we just go with what's actually the case.

He objectively isn't aware of Time Eater. This is not up for debate.

No? Eggman doesn't need to know about those to know about 5-D Maginaryworld. The Maginaryworld is still 5D. It's still a HDE space with worlds embedded in it. This is something he knows, this is something he straight up sees.

That is we, as the wiki have it rated that way. But Eggman himself? He knows what the Maginaryworld is, whether it's 3D, 4D or ten billion D, he would know, because he knows what it encompasses.

Why would we accept blatantly false information? And no, he doesn't need to know that information. He doesn't need to know about Uni A, to also know Uni B is a Uni for example.

Yes and it's an easy one. Eggman doesn't know Generations stuff objectively because that's what the game shows and even says. And Eggman knows what the Maginaryworld is, knows what the 4D space is, and even knows about the Precioustone, Void, and so forth.

In fact he just flatout watches everything they do at all times, down to where he knows the collective amount of tile spaces they land on the instant they do, among other things.

And the ENG manual, like it or not, clarifies he's aware of its power. He doesn't need to know about these other 4D-5D spaces, if he knows about this 5D space and is in it and is keeping tabs on all the relevant stuff with a teritrary statement even.

The only argument that could be made is, even though Eggman knows about everything involved more or less, and actively partakes, messes around, and is aiming for such things, he simply doesn't know that dimension is 5D, for some reason, despite having the capability to infer such things multiple times through out the franchise with little, if any, issue. Which honestly, doesn't make sense, the eng manual makes it clear he knows the power of it and that's why he wants it, and even if he didn't initially, he would know by the end, and thus, in time for Heroes.

So, in the end, not only have I replied to your Time Eater argument, and gave evidence for it, you haven't given a thing to prove any of your recent claims, beyond that very Time Eater argument which is provably false. Your argument now is essentially Eggman just doesn't know the scope of Maginaryspace, despite being there, having all the relevant info, and so on and so forth.

Are we done? Can we finally move on?

This is also another wall of text with no evidence, too.

Wait... do you think Classic Sonic is a different Sonic? He's just past Sonic. If you say this:

What? Nobody is saying Classic wouldn't remember? Of course they do. the problem, is assuming Modern would remember retroactively, which is demonstrably proven false in game.

That means you do concede that they do remember Generations. Modern isn't a different Sonic, so bam. Done



Classic Sonic is just Past Sonic. If you don't deny he doesn't remember, and CONCEDES to it, I don't even need to reply to your other yap.

You didn't actually debunk Eggman knowing the Time Eater, either. You just yapped about contradictions, yet you didn't debunk the fact:

-Classic Sonic objectively learned a new move thanks to Generations. The homing attack/boost is learned in Generations.

-Classic Sonic post-Generations remembers modern, and thus the events of the game.

The contradictions can be just be chalked to... bad writing! You said so before that it's just bad writing when something doesn't fit what you say. Done.

More for the fact you're exceedingly toxic. Something you've been told to cut out thrice, by staff.

The staff told YOU to cut off as well. Anyone accusing others, which you have.

No? Eggman doesn't need to know about those to know about 5-D Maginaryworld. The Maginaryworld is still 5D. It's still a HDE space with worlds embedded in it. This is something he knows, this is something he straight up sees.

Yes, he does because Maginaryworld is only 5-D because of an infinity of those worlds. In fact, where’s the proof Eggman can just tell a higher-d dimension with just his glasses pre-Heroes? Only 06 Eggman could do so in 06.

Also would like to mention that was the general verdict I got when I inquired with Sonic goons.

I actually want these so-called Sonic goons to come here directly and:

-Show where Eggman has detected higher-d words with just a basic eggmobile pre-Heroes.

According to one of your older posts, they told you Eggman had a knack of just seeing higher dimensions, didn't they? Yet, if Eggman doesn't remember Generations that never happened pre-Heroes.

So I want them to come here and EXPLAIN this, because your argument hinges on this. All Eggman did in the Classic games is make a universe. That's all.

The only argument that could be made is, even though Eggman knows about everything involved more or less, and actively partakes, messes around, and is aiming for such things, he simply doesn't know that dimension is 5D, for some reason, despite having the capability to infer such things multiple times through out the franchise with little, if any, issue.

Actually no, he has never inferred higher-d dimensions before Heroes. Since your argument against 1-C is the fact Eggman can't infer how strong the emeralds are of Heroes because he hasn't seen tier 1 feats, so Eggman shouldn't infer that Maginaryworld is 5-D if he has never done so pre-Heroes. He has only done so in 06 and Rush, FUTURE games.

So there you go, you debunked yourself.

So, in the end, not only have I replied to your Time Eater argument, and gave evidence for it, you haven't given a thing to prove any of your recent claims, beyond that very Time Eater argument which is provably false. Your argument now is essentially Eggman just doesn't know the scope of Maginaryspace, despite being there, having all the relevant info, and so on and so forth.

Are we done? Can we finally move on?

Nope. We're NOT done and we're NOT moving on because you want to. You CONCEDED that Classic Sonic does remember Generations, conceding on my argument since Classic is just past Sonic canonically.

You CONCEDED Eggman shouldn't know Maginaryworld is 5-D, since he has never inferred higher-d dimensions pre-Heroes by dismissing 1-C Overlord and believing he NEEDS to have feats beforehand. Which he doesn't have.

Maybe we will be done when you concede against this cherrypicked 5-D Overlord. But until you debunk every single contradiction, we WILL be here.

 

[Theuser789]

Nope. We're NOT done and we're NOT moving on because you want to. You CONCEDED that Classic Sonic does remember Generations, conceding on my argument since Classic is just past Sonic canonically.

You CONCEDED Eggman shouldn't know Maginaryworld is 5-D, since he has never inferred higher-d dimensions pre-Heroes by dismissing 1-C Overlord and believing he NEEDS to have feats beforehand. Which he doesn't have.

Maybe we will be done when you concede against this cherrypicked 5-D Overlord. But until you debunk every single contradiction, we WILL be here.

Actually, nevermind about this. I don't want to keep arguing anymore. This thread and these arguments aren't doing good for my mental health. If this wikia wants to accept such an agenda-pilled argument just to keep Overlord at Low 1-C, so be it. Just proof vibes and feels are what's needed for the Sonic Goons (no longer Scholars) nowadays. I will just agree to disagree.

 

[JJSliderman]

I think Eggman not remembering events that came from his time in Generations is because of the timestream healing, it current already applies to their stats as to why all the classic characters aren’t 2-C within the classic era.

 

[Theuser789]

I think Eggman not remembering events that came from his time in Generations is because of the timestream healing, it current already applies to their stats as to why all the classic characters aren’t 2-C within the classic era.

That only applies to Forces Classic. He's the only one who has tier 2 stats, and that game only had him being sent to the future. Gerald's statement is from Gens.

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega, are you being a rat right now? You LITERALLY used Sonic fighting the Time Eater as proof he could use tier 1 power of the emeralds. I can get the post right now. I am not entertaining this.

... so? Sonic's own aptitude and knownledge of the Emeralds, which he would need to have prior to coming to the present as no one taught him, relates somehow to every knowing the future in past games... ? I really don't know how you can see those as comparable, at all

 

[Omegabronic]

Also, Maginary World is 5D for being 4 dimensional spacially + 1 time dimension

The other realms are not the sole reason

 

[Theuser789]

... so? Sonic's own aptitude and knownledge of the Emeralds, which he would need to have prior to coming to the present as no one taught him, relates somehow to every knowing the future in past games... ? I really don't know how you can see those as comparable, at all

Except if Sonic doesn't remember using this aptitude, then it's irrelevant. Nobody taught Eggman the full power of the emeralds, either. Yet, that's the main argument used against keeping Metal Overlord is the fact he doesn't know the emeralds can reach 1-C powers. But if Sonic just can reach above Overlord, then that means keeping him at low 1-C is bunk because Eggman was objective wrong, as the chances of beating Overlord objectively weren't slim when he can just use 1-C power.

 

[Omegabronic]

Except if Sonic doesn't remember using this aptitude, then it's irrelevant.

no? Cuz he would still be capable of such power, thus using their full power?

Nobody taught Eggman the full power of the emeralds, either. Yet, that's the main argument used against keeping Metal Overlord is the fact he doesn't know the emeralds can reach 1-C powers.
But if Sonic just can reach above Overlord, then that means keeping him at low 1-C is bunk because Eggman was objective wrong, as the chances of beating Overlord objectively weren't slim when he can just use 1-C power.

See, i also agree on keeping 1-C based on Sonic's innate aptitude(not memories), but using Eggmam's memory of something he only should have after the time travel happened from his perspecrive has nothing to do with that

Again, i only talked about Low 1-C cuz i thought no one would accept 1-C, so i was planning on making a thread for that later, but if you want to do it here and now, ok by me

 

[Theuser789]

but if you want to do it here and now, ok by me

Yes, that is better than Low 1-C Overlord. It would be better to not downgrade Overlord.

 

[ShakeResounding]

With all the arguments I've read, I think keeping 1-C Metal Overlord and perhaps strengthening his justification in some way would be best.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

In regards to 1-C Metal Overlord, I don’t vibe with the Metal Overlord > Time Eater argument due to Gerald’s “time heals” statement and the many contradictions the cast remembering causes. For the current arguments for 1-C I remember being somewhat swayed more by the arguments against it, but since I don’t remember what those arguments actually were I can’t in good conscience say I’m really against 1-C right now.

I do agree with most people here in that he should be bare minimum Low 1-C though.

 

[Theuser789]

For the current arguments for 1-C I remember being somewhat swayed more by the arguments against it

The argument was just base Shadow beating him, but the pro-Low 1-C peeps debunked it already.

 

[JJSliderman]

Metal Overlord being > Time Eater sounds a little wack, it implies that an incomplete Doom Shadow is somehow > Time Eater which is uhhhh

 

[Ghengiroo115]

The argument was just base Shadow beating him, but the pro-Low 1-C peeps debunked it already.

It wasn’t just that argument, it was other stuff but again I don’t remember exactly what they were. I’ll just say I’m neutral for now to be safe, I mean it’s not like my vote actually matters in the end.

 

[Chariot190]

Omega, are you being a rat right now? You LITERALLY used Sonic fighting the Time Eater as proof he could use tier 1 power of the emeralds. I can get the post right now. I am not entertaining this.

This is also another wall of text with no evidence, too.

Evidence you don't like is still evidence.

Wait... do you think Classic Sonic is a different Sonic? He's just past Sonic. If you say this:

He is what he is, whether he's the exact same or a past altercation, doesn't change the fact Modern doesn't know. Which is what matters.

That means you do concede that they do remember Generations. Modern isn't a different Sonic, so bam. Done

No it means they don't remember and nobody has to pretend otherwise.

Classic Sonic is just Past Sonic. If you don't deny he doesn't remember, and CONCEDES to it, I don't even need to reply to your other yap.

He can be a past Sonic and Modern can still not remember the events of Generations retroactively because that's literally the case, time travel plots do be like that sometimes, and in this case, it's literally just what happens.

You didn't actually debunk Eggman knowing the Time Eater, either. You just yapped about contradictions, yet you didn't debunk the fact:

I did, he objectively flatout says he didn't know. This is not up for debate.

-Classic Sonic objectively learned a new move thanks to Generations. The homing attack/boost is learned in Generations.

Yep. Classic Sonic remembering things after the fact doesn't mean Modern retroactively remembers everything that Classic Sonic went through in Generations though.

-Classic Sonic post-Generations remembers modern, and thus the events of the game.

Yep, but the Modern Sonic we see, doesn't, and if he doesn't, your argument is debunked, not withstanding Eggman himself objectively doesn't know, and him knowing is the crux of your argument.

The contradictions can be just be chalked to... bad writing! You said so before that it's just bad writing when something doesn't fit what you say. Done.

Or, maybe, it's just the case and you can't ignore an entire game, 3 times at that, including a version that had dialouge changes (Of which none changed any of the contradictory lines), and just go "yep".

One or two minor contrivences, sure, but this is so objectively blatant and is also the entire premise of the game, that if we were to ignore this, we may as well just remove all of Generations from scaling.

And case and point, you might think it's bad writing, but what would be the "bad writing", is that they don't remember, that doesn't mean they actually do remember secretly. The fact they don't remember you can argue is bad, but it's still the fact of the matter.

The staff told YOU to cut off as well. Anyone accusing others, which you have.

I have not, and even if that was the case, I would have done so given I haven't since.

Yes, he does because Maginaryworld is only 5-D because of an infinity of those worlds. In fact, where’s the proof Eggman can just tell a higher-d dimension with just his glasses pre-Heroes? Only 06 Eggman could do so in 06.

Well ignoring the fact he has glasses on at like all times.
Occam's Razor. You're conflating what we, the viewers need to know, to conclude it's 5D.
Eggman isn't the viewer, he would know about the Maginaryworld, and everything relating to it, he's gonna know it's 5D. He objectively doesn't need to know these other worlds yet, he just needs to know what a 5D dimension is, something he evidently does given he's able to conclude in the other cases. Or even just know that Maginaryspace has countless time-spaces embedded in it,w hich is something he factually is aware of.

I actually want these so-called Sonic goons to come here directly and:

-Show where Eggman has detected higher-d words with just a basic eggmobile pre-Heroes.

Mate, it's a HDE space with numerous universes embedded in it, he can literally just look, let alone having to deduce it with the info he already had.

According to one of your older posts, they told you Eggman had a knack of just seeing higher dimensions, didn't they? Yet, if Eggman doesn't remember Generations that never happened pre-Heroes.

An established concept is still an established concept.
Also no, that was me going off the games I've played.

So I want them to come here and EXPLAIN this,

All but one is here, whether or not they want to argue with them, is on them, clearly they do not want to.

because your argument hinges on this. All Eggman did in the Classic games is make a universe. That's all.

We aren't talking about Classic, nor what Eggman himself has done.

My argument hinges on him simply knowing the Precioustone's power actually, and due to knowing about that, and Void even, his claims of the CE's power post Shuffle would account for that.
You keep bringing up unrelated facets as if they matter to the argument at hand. They do not. Do not strawman.

Actually no, he has never inferred higher-d dimensions before Heroes.

But he has, hasn't he? Why are we assuming he suddenly can't here? He has all the info of note to conclude that. He knows everything he would need to know it's HD.

Since your argument against 1-C is the fact Eggman can't infer how strong the emeralds are of Heroes because he hasn't seen tier 1 feats,

No, my argument is Time Eater doesn't count, as he objectively doesn't know of it in Heroes, and the Emeralds haven't yet done a 1-C feat.
But, they can scale to things he would be aware of, such as the 5D place he literally went to and partook in all game.

If someone wants to actually bring forth a legitimate point as to why the CE would be 1-C from his perspective or why they would scale to them at 1-C at that time, they can be my guest, if it's legit and checks out, I have no issue with 1-C MO, as long as the evidence is there. I just find the reasons you've presented insufficient, or objectively not true like Time Eater.

so Eggman shouldn't infer that Maginaryworld is 5-D if he has never done so pre-Heroes. He has only done so in 06 and Rush, FUTURE games.

Rush ain't exactly far off nor did he do it in some unconventional way, he did so with zero problem?

So there you go, you debunked yourself.

Strawmanning and just saying words, is not a debunk.

Nope. We're NOT done and we're NOT moving on because you want to.

You need to cut it out on your needless toxicity.

You CONCEDED that Classic Sonic does remember Generations, conceding on my argument since Classic is just past Sonic canonically.

And yet Modern doesn't, why that is the case doesn't matter, he doesn't, continue this and I will chalk this up to stonewalling and steelmanning and you will be ignored on this front.

This isn't how arguments work. This does not change they objectively do not know. Eggman especially is bad, because even if we ignore the game itself and say they remember retroactively, Eggman himself wouldn't because he would have forced himself to forget as per his own words.

You CONCEDED Eggman shouldn't know Maginaryworld is 5-D, since he has never inferred higher-d dimensions pre-Heroes by dismissing 1-C Overlord and believing he NEEDS to have feats beforehand. Which he doesn't have.

Literally not what I said, strawman again and I'll be adding these to the report as well.

Maybe we will be done when you concede against this cherrypicked 5-D Overlord.

It is what the evidence suggests with the least amount of presumptions.

But until you debunk every single contradiction, we WILL be here.

The majority of the alleged contradictions, don't even exist, such as Time Eater knowledge.

Anyway
Eggman would know of the Maginaryworld's scope because;

He is actively stated to be keeping tabs on Void (Who is low 1-C, and is actively corrupting and dismantling the dream worlds and Maginaryspace as a whole) (Japanese manual+premise of the whole game).

He knows the scope of Maginary space because he can see the 4D space at all times, and presumably has even went there to transition between worlds given Lumina isn't helping him (His role in the game, and also having eyes), also the final board which...I'm listing off extra.

He knows of the Precioustone, sees what it can do, what it's doing, and the ENG manual clarifies he knows its power (the precioustone is Low 1-C, him knowing its power, means he knows its power, which is corroborated by everything. I don't think I need to explain what the Precioustone does either and what it did, if Eggman is aware of it, which, presumably is as that's why we're told he wants it).
Also, given he's watching them at all times, to the point he keeps track of the turns and what everyone's done each turn, he'd also have seen void do funny Precioustone stuff, as he just does it in plain view.

If, for some reason, we want to argue Eggman wouldn't know the blatant HDE space with a bunch of universes embedded in it is 5D which he can literally just see and thus wouldn't even need tech to know.
He has deduced a place's state of existence multiple times, we already know he's keeping tabs on everything, is always watching and has direct access to the realm itself, all while the very purpose of him being there is because of said power.
Well, I see no reason he wouldn't know the very main feat of the thing he's eyeing, plus as said, if he didn't initially, he would afterward, which means the statements following Shuffle would count all the same.

All the relevant scans for this has been posted before, but to tack on a bit more.

Not even just seen, Eggman has gone and entered 4-D Maginary Space before.


He's in the place that embeds innumerable dream worlds (As it's collapsing due to it mind you, a low 1-C feat), and he would know about the secluded space-times for various board pieces and mini-games because he partakes in a bunch (Omega has linked a compilation earlier), while having also gone to multiple of the universes as well, which we see (The various game boards). Ignore everything else, every statement, even common sense.
He would still know it's 5D as he knows it's a space with innumerable time-space unis and the space they're all embedded in as nothing but flat projections as he's actively been to both things, and can see it with his own eyes.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Bump