Sonic the hedgehog abilities

[Theglassman12]

@Starter_Pack literally the only thing left to talk about is the Temporal nuke with the strikes, which I've yet to see any evidence for plus it was already accepted to be a range feat.

@omegabronic Even though a majority of the OP is already accepted to have some changes or removals? Like the End's NEP or the concept hax stuff or the death hax resistance? But sure I'll wait.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What you need is a sufficient amount of staff approval, of which there has been none atm

 

[Omegabronic]

@Starter_Pack literally the only thing left to talk about is the Temporal nuke with the strikes, which I've yet to see any evidence for plus it was already accepted to be a range feat.@omegabronic Even though a majority of the OP is already accepted to have some changes or removals? Like the End's NEP or the concept hax stuff or the death hax resistance? But sure I'll wait.

NO IT WASN'T there is litterally no staff that agreed with it but you, in fact, nothing on your OP was accepted by any staff other than you, so stop ignoring the rules of the wiki you are a mod of

 

[Theglassman12]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Damage3245 Can any of you look through what's considered to be removed from the pages on the OP and see which one can stay and go?

@omegabronic Literally every other Sonic supporter in this thread accepted some of the more blatant errors on the page but whatever.

 

[Omegabronic]

@omegabronic Literally every other Sonic supporter in this thread accepted some of the more blatant errors on the page but whatever.

We are mere blue names, our say in the matter is not of any power to remove or add anything

 

[Theglassman12]

Said blue names also are the ones who've contributed in adding the abilities into the pages in the first place, I'd say their word matters as much as any staff member if they end up agreeing on what ends up being removed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Said blue names also are the ones who've contributed in adding the abilities into the pages in the first place, I'd say their word matters as much as any staff member if they end up agreeing on what ends up being removed.

As much as I'd love for that to be the case...

That ain't how it works. By our current system, a singular evaluating staff's vote matters more than all of them combined

 

[Starter_Pack]

@Starter_Pack literally the only thing left to talk about is the Temporal nuke with the strikes, which I've yet to see any evidence for plus it was already accepted to be a range feat.

Whoop-de-doo. That doesn't change the fact that no staff agreed with you on this front in the first place. Stop making excuses for yourself.

 

[Theglassman12]

@CloverDragon03 I find that kinda stupid tbh, it shouldn't be any different than "knowledgeable members can comment in staff only threads in verse specific topics" but **** it, I already tagged 4 admins so we'll just have to wait.

@Starter_Pack So can you look through the OP and the thread itself to decide what goes?

 

[Omegabronic]

Whoop-de-doo. That doesn't change the fact that no staff agreed with you on this front in the first place. Stop making excuses for yourself.

if you will comment keep this comment on mine in mind for the temporal nuke stuff

 

[Starter_Pack]

Not particularly fond of going through long pages, but I'll do my best later, preoccupied IRL at this current second.

 

[Theglassman12]

@omegabronic Hold on, doesn't the dialogue in the Solaris fight imply that Sonic Shadow and Silver split apart into different time periods to fight Solaris to kill it? How exactly is that a temporal nuke when they're just killing him each at different time periods?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Said blue names also are the ones who've contributed in adding the abilities into the pages in the first place, I'd say their word matters as much as any staff member if they end up agreeing on what ends up being removed.

That is not how that works.

Anyway, I agree with omegabronic’s points in regards to the offensive time travel, but the other changes and removals agreed upon should be fine.

 

[Omegabronic]

@omegabronic Hold on, doesn't the dialogue in the Solaris fight imply that Sonic Shadow and Silver split apart into different time periods to fight Solaris to kill it? How exactly is that a temporal nuke when they're just killing him each at different time periods?

no it doesn't, all that is said is that the characters are fighting to save the past, the present and future, besides they can't physically be in every time period to kill solaris, the past is not a point in time, it is everything that ever happened, the future is likewise everything that will happen, and the present is also not a set moment, since every second that passes makes the earlier present the past, so no, that dialogue really doesn't disprove anything at all but that they were attacking solaris through all of time, altho subtle, hence why that is a support point for all the other dialogue that is basically saying it outloud

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok, though I still find it questionable that this is supposed to be an innate ability when it’s tied to how strong the Super forms are supposed to be alongside this only happening on an omnipresent being.

 

[Omegabronic]

we are going in back and forth at this point with you just repeating the same stuff without properly giving an argument, strength does not allow you to hit someone across their entire history like it is stated that the Super trio did against solaris, nor does his state as an omnipresent across time being magically gives the hedgehogs special haxes just for fighting it, it is non sensical

 

[Theglassman12]

You literally said they cannot do it in their Low 2-C and 2-C forms with Super forms but can do it in their 2-B to 2-A forms, that implies it’s a strength feat more than an actual ability feat.

 

[Omegabronic]

You literally said they cannot do it in their Low 2-C and 2-C forms with Super forms but can do it in their 2-B to 2-A forms, that implies it’s a strength feat more than an actual ability feat.

No, that is because they gain more abilities with more chaos energy, just like how someone with 1 chaos emerald can't do everything that a super form can, i have never EVER said that it was because of strength, stop strawmaning my points, Solaris was fought in the peak power state of the emeralds, thus the most ammount of chaos energy so a new ability that he has only shown when he was at that point, it is not related to AP at all, stop ignoring the main point i made, AP does not allow you to attack someone's entire history

 

[Starsprite53]

Just for a thought, is it all that uncommon for super forms/chaos energy to suddenly gain powers to fit the situation? The whole narrative of 06 countains new abilities that chaos emeralds can do and we didn't know about it before

 

[Omegabronic]

i wouldn't say that they gain to fit the occasion, more like that just how 7 emeralds/super forms can do more stuff than 1 emerald, the peak of chaos energy of a super form would also have more stuff then the standard level of normal super forms

 

[Theglassman12]

Is that remotely stated that gaining more chaos energy just grants new abilities?

 

[Omegabronic]

Is that remotely stated that gaining more chaos energy just grants new abilities?

Yeah, hence why no one can go Super with just 1 chaos emerald, while they still can use other abilities from the emeralds, like chaos control for example

 

[Theuser789]

The OP is wrong, too. Abilities like acausality have not been agreed to be removed. This is just dishonest.

 

[JJSliderman]

The three points in time thing doesn’t really work when you can deal all the damage to Solaris’s consciousness with a single super, implying they can hit Solaris across all of time.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Is that remotely stated that gaining more chaos energy just grants new abilities?

Just a minor comment on this.

Yes, this has been established for years.

In Sonic 2006 in and of itself, we learn that you need two Emeralds to time travel, and that one alone is sufficient to create such a phenomena despite Shadow by himself possessing the Chaos Energy to pull of time stop/time slow/etc.

IIRC there's also statements from Iizuka himself that Shadow needs the Emeralds to pull off some of his hax.

In IDW this is just stated outright:

Though this is a more extreme case given Ian has stated though that IDW is canon it has contradictions due to different writers. We know Shadow doesn't need an Emerald to pull off Chaos Control, but he definitely needs sufficient energy for different hax.

So yeah, more Chaos Energy can unlock new abilities. I assume it also takes ingenuity to some extent, but that doesn't matter here.

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, I agree with omegabronic’s points in regards to the offensive time travel, but the other changes and removals agreed upon should be fine.

Eh, just wondering, isn't Immeasurable combat speed already mean and cover Offensive Time Travel??, listing it is just redundant so why waste time and effort??

 

[Omegabronic]

Eh, just wondering, isn't Immeasurable combat speed already mean and cover Offensive Time Travel??, listing it is just redundant so why waste time and effort??

immeasurable combat speed wouldn't help, when they strike, they only strike in 1 time period, we see that as they only strike once in the game, and yet solaris gets damaged through all of time regardless, besides for they to do that with only speed would have to make them blitz solaris via going to all of time instanteneously to hit him all through it, which isn't possible since he scales to them

 

[Vietthai96]

I still hardly understand, since to be fair, isn't that how most characters who have Immeasurable speed and ability destroy entire timeline/time axis capable of??, since when you destroy timeline/time axis, you also destroy everything across all point in time. I mean i don't exactly disagree, but listing it is just redundant??

 

[Omegabronic]

I still hardly understand, since to be fair, isn't that how most characters who have Immeasurable speed and ability destroy entire timeline/time axis capable of??

since when you destroy timeline/time axis, you also destroy everything across all point in time. I mean i don't exactly disagree, but listing it is just redundant??

we know for a fact that sonic and co are not attacking time/destroying it in any way here at all, it doesn't make sense narratively, and no, what the super trio is doing is not a possible thing for every immeasurable speed char, specially since it cannot be by speed here at all for reason i already listed

 

[Theglassman12]

@Theuser789 You mean the super forms? I literally listed it as Accepted, why are you saying I claimed it to be removed?

@omegabronic That wasn’t really answering my question, I asked if more chaos energy just grants more abilities by default.

 

[Omegabronic]

@omegabronic That wasn’t really answering my question, I asked if more chaos energy just grants more abilities by default.

yes

 

[Theuser789]

You mean the super forms? I literally listed it as Accepted, why are you saying I claimed it to be removed?

That are abilities that the OP is claiming were agreed to be removed, or that finished discusing when they haven't. I will go over them later today.

 

[Theglassman12]

@omegabronic can you post scans of this? I need some concrete evidence that’s the case.

@Theuser789 And Acausality for the Super forms was not listed as Removed, so stop making claims that aren’t true.

 

[Omegabronic]

@omegabronic can you post scans of this? I need some concrete evidence that’s the case.

Just a minor comment on this.

Yes, this has been established for years.

In Sonic 2006 in and of itself, we learn that you need two Emeralds to time travel, and that one alone is sufficient to create such a phenomena despite Shadow by himself possessing the Chaos Energy to pull of time stop/time slow/etc.

IIRC there's also statements from Iizuka himself that Shadow needs the Emeralds to pull off some of his hax.

In IDW this is just stated outright:

Though this is a more extreme case given Ian has stated though that IDW is canon it has contradictions due to different writers. We know Shadow doesn't need an Emerald to pull off Chaos Control, but he definitely needs sufficient energy for different hax.

So yeah, more Chaos Energy can unlock new abilities. I assume it also takes ingenuity to some extent, but that doesn't matter here.

Laser summarized this very well, but also......i think that it is kind of obvious? like, a single chaos emerald is not capable of making everything a super form can, example, it doesn't allow characters to fly like a super form can

 

[Theuser789]

@Theuser789 And Acausality for the Super forms was not listed as Removed, so stop making claims that aren’t true.

I am not talking about acausality, I'm talking about stuff like these:

Space-Time Manipulation and offensive time travel: So this is a bit confusing, wasn't this used for immeasurable speed to argue Sonic Silver and Shadow is able to move across time itself to fight Solaris in different points in time? Doesn't this feel redundant especially when the normal chaos emeralds already have these abilities, albeit not the offensive time travel part. (RANGE AT BEST)

This wasn't agreed to be "range at best". No staff agreed with it. Discussion is still happening.

Void Manipulation: Is the only thing going for it based off the name? Cause we don't give abilities based on the name of an ability unless stated it can control a literal void. (POSSIBLE VOID HAX)

This wasn't agreed to be "possible", either.

Mid-High regen: Isn't this High-Mid? Being able to come back from being shattered is High-Mid, Mid-High is for when you're completely vaporized a la Majin Buu. (POSSIBLY MID-HIGH)

Ditto from above.

 

[Eseseso]

Since Super Sonic is going to be Acausal Type 4, would that give those who can negate his invulnerability and kill his Super Form (Solaris, the 4 Titans, The End) some sort of advanced Causality Manipulation?

 

[Omegabronic]

Since Super Sonic is going to be Acausal Type 4, would that give those who can negate his invulnerability and kill his Super Form (Solaris, the 4 Titans, The End) some sort of advanced Causality Manipulation?

Not really no, he was already acausal type 4

 

[Theglassman12]

@Theuser789 Maverick just agreed to those so that’s not really true.

@omegabronic Laser also said that IDW isn't canon to the main games, anything actually stated in the games would help.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Can any of you look through what's considered to be removed from the pages on the OP and see which one can stay and go?

Alright

Mind restoration: Is this actually restoring minds cause the clip just shows Tails getting his body back, as opposed to his mind being lost and being restored.

Yeah this isn't mind restoration

Acausality type 4: So uhh, what part of the scan here implies that turning into a Super makes you function on a completely different set of laws/cause and effect rules? Because all I see is Sonic floating around until he activates the emeralds to go super, and is able to move fine, which just looks like resistance to Gravity Manipulation more than type 4 Acausality unless there's some context I'm missing here.

Considering a normal Egg-Man can move around without the weird gem as well, along with the rings flying in straight directions, this does not feel like Acasual at all.

Extrasensory perception: Isn't this just enhanced senses or just his precog kicking in? Cause that's already being used for those and it doesn't mention he's using a sixth sense here.

If his quills are picking up danger then it would be Extrasensory, since its an extra sense that he is using to detect things.

Immortality Negation: The types of immortality that's being negated should be in his page.

Yeah, or at least link to King Arthur's page

Power Nullification: Is breaking magic barriers with the sword stated to nullify its power? Because this sounds more like an AP thing than a Power Null thing.

If the barrier is immune to standard physical force or something, it can be. Otherwise it would be more like magic negation or just AP.

Holy Manipulation: I don't know how it being called miracle gems or causing miracles to happen is enough for Holy Manipulation, the Shadow statement might help but that should be elaborated on as that looks like the good ending and Shadow's just fighting off random demons that appeared, nothing mentions it being a divine power that can strike down all evil in the way the Master Sword from Zelda is.

Well this is Holy Manipulation

Holy Manipulation is, in short, the ability to manipulate divine or sacred energy and/or objects pertaining to such forces. It is a very broad term that has a variety of applications and frequently intersects with Light Manipulation, Healing, Magic, and other abilities generally considered to fall under the "good" or "lawful". Due to its nature, it is often extremely effective against those deemed "evil" or "monstrous", serving as a weakness to many characters under those categories. Due its connotations, it can most frequently be found on characters based on the Christian faith or some other application, such as Angels, Monotheistic Gods, Saints, Crusaders, Priests. Some other fantastical portrayals include the "White Mage" archetype and Divine Beasts or Holy Spirits.

Considering Chaos Emeralds have both positive and negative energy along with them never really being called divine/sacred I'm not sure they qualify

Space-Time Manipulation and offensive time travel: So this is a bit confusing, wasn't this used for immeasurable speed to argue Sonic Silver and Shadow is able to move across time itself to fight Solaris in different points in time? Doesn't this feel redundant especially when the normal chaos emeralds already have these abilities, albeit not the offensive time travel part.

This is more just a speed thing rather than a P&A thing

Death hax resistance via Void affecting Nature Zone: The link isn't loading anything here, so I'd like to see.

Its from Sonic Shuffle. But an updated link would be needed

Muketi Monitor Power Null: Isn't this just more invulnerability if he becomes immune to other attacks with this?

Its invulnerability (though giving that based on a power up seems questionable) or some form of barrier/attack negation. Probably something of the latter rather than the former.

Greater Cold resistance: Does he break out of it like a QTE in this clip because it just looks like he just takes damage and it wears off, which doesn't look like a resistance feat to me if he doesn't break out of it easily.

Like, it is cold resistance because he eventually breaks out of it. Its just ultra garbage resistance and may not even be resistance at all.

Void Manipulation: Is the only thing going for it based off the name? Cause we don't give abilities based on the name of an ability unless stated it can control a literal void.

Seems more like gravity manipulation

Concept hax (type 1): This is just NPI, interacting with an abstract concept would just be that, Concept hax would work if he literally kills a concept itself. Also why would attacking Solaris' Conscious be considered concept hax? That just seems like NPI as well.

If they don't fundamentally change a concept or effect it, it wouldn't be conceptual manipulation.

Mid-High regen: Isn't this High-Mid? Being able to come back from being shattered is High-Mid, Mid-High is for when you're completely vaporized a la Majin Buu.

This is indeed High-Mid. Turning from frozen chunks to unfrozen chunks isn't enough to qualify for being turned into gas (which involves molecular destruction) and then reforming.

Is this remotely stated or shown to be passive abilities? Cause the one clip on "binding one's soul" doesn't really tell me that it's passive, let alone something he does a lot in a fight and the cast resisting it.

Isn't it a card turning ability? Seems more like an active thing.

Life Manipulation: How exactly is this life manipulation? Its just giving energy to any living being, it's not creating life itself.

It would be for the following:

Life Manipulation is the ability to manipulate the life force that courses inside living beings or the very concept of life itself.

Which would qualify it for Life manipulation.

What exactly is the explanation for his type 8 immortality? Cause nothing is explained there.

It does need to be expanded upon

Death Manipulation: It mentions the corrosion of the forest is causing them to die, not some supernatural spell that just inflicts death, this should be just corrosion inducement at best.

I need to know what you're referring to here since this isn't on Void's page

Low godly regen: This isn't regeneration, it's just shapeshifting. The fact he's forming his body into Shadow's well... shadow and just pops up after his minions die is just shapeshifting at best, it's only regen if his body gets destroyed and all that was left was his spirit and regenerated all of that.

According to the page Mephiles is a shadow figure that conjures a body and can make/change the body he conjures. So this is more of a creation thing than a regeneration thing I feel like.

Low godly regen: Stating to resurrect while being an energy being doesn't really give me Low-Godly vibe, just that its incorporeal in its true state and that it comes back to live, which is type 4 Immortality at best.

This just seems like the Mephiles but with a lava monster.

Abstract Existence and Nonexistent physiology: Being the embodiment of death is type 2 AE, not type 1 since embodiment means being a physical form of something, also is it remotely elaborated on by "infinite and nothing" cause that seems too vague for NEP.

From the page the moon rock-form is just an avatar. The true form of the End is a formless being

Concept (type 1) and Perception Manipulation: What makes this type 1? Cause I don't see any scans that imply it's independant of reality, also perception manipulation sounds more like shapeshifting if it changes its form based on how people perceive it, also also the link has like no translations on what the devs are saying so that would be nice to see.

They would need to be explained better on the pages.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 Shake posted these scans from frontiers to argue for type 4 Acausality.

There’s also the offensive time travel stuff which is still divisive atm and neither side is willing to come to a middle ground here. From Shake’s comment after you’ll see the entire discussion on it.