Sonic the hedgehog abilities

[omegabronic]

I dunno if it's just me, but wouldn't harming a temporally omnipresent being not be anything at all? Like Solaris basically just has his body stretched across all of time so wouldn't his entire body be affected no matter who hits him in any time period (Provided they can actually, y'know, hurt him) since it's just one body?

no it wouldn't, Eggman specifies that harming/destroying in one period would do absolutely nothing to it, with them saying that to destroy they needed to destroy him in the past, present and future all at once, which is why he has acausality type 3, destroying him in only 1 period of time is worthless since he exists in all other periods as well

Dunno if I explained what I said in a way that makes sense, I'm preoccupied with working on another profile as I'm just side eying this discussion while I do so and not writing with too much thought.

i think i got what you meant, good luck with your other stuff

 

[Theglassman12]

@omegabronic The fact that there's literally no stated ability whatsoever that they're using to specifically affect Solaris, and instead is just relying on just hitting him which can affect his entire being is a range feat, something we've used on this wiki for plenty of other franchises.

Even though you're making the same assumption that this is an ability that Sonic and co just passively does with every hit that they can hit someone across time despite no statements of doing such a thing. This isn't me making an assumption, this is just us assuming the lowest end interpretation given how vague this is done, and in this case, affecting an omnipresent being with your attacks, with no elaboration on how it's done, is treated as a range feat at best. Again look back at Neo Exdeath, a being that's omnipresent across infinite realities and across time itself in final fantasy and the heroes being able to harm and kill Neo Exdeath granted a range feat for the cast since they're affecting the entire void itself without much elaboration.

@Dust_Collector Imagine Infinite Zamasu from DBS, attacking one small part of him isn't really going to help since he's still everywhere even across time. To affect all of Zamasu, which is what Zeno did, he'd have to affect him across all of time and space itself for it to work. So if anyone is able to take down an omnipresent being, that should be considered a range feat for affecting all of them.

 

[Dust_Collector]

no it wouldn't, Eggman specifies that harming/destroying in one period would do absolutely nothing to it, with them saying that to destroy they needed to destroy him in the past, present and future all at once, which is why he has acausality type 3, destroying him in only 1 period of time is worthless since he exists in all other periods as well

Ah I see

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic The fact that there's literally no stated ability whatsoever that they're using to specifically affect Solaris, and instead is just relying on just hitting him which can affect his entire being is a range feat, something we've used on this wiki for plenty of other franchises.

and this concerns the fact that it is still a temporal nuke how?

Even though you're making the same assumption that this is an ability that Sonic and co just passively does with every hit that they can hit someone across time despite no statements of doing such a thing.

they have statements, they had to hit/destroy solaris across all of time/all of his history, and then they go to do just that, the statements and showings, basically everything about solaris in 06 is directly telling us that super forms can destroy/attack someone through out all of their history

This isn't me making an assumption, this is just us assuming the lowest end interpretation given how vague this is done, and in this case, affecting an omnipresent being with your attacks, with no elaboration on how it's done, is treated as a range feat at best.

the lowest interpretation for something that is directly stated to not be what they are doing? it is directly stated that they attacked solaris across all of his history, it being range does not negate the fact that they still can attack someone across all of their history

Again look back at Neo Exdeath, a being that's omnipresent across infinite realities and across time itself in final fantasy and the heroes being able to harm and kill Neo Exdeath granted a range feat for the cast since they're affecting the entire void itself without much elaboration.

don't care about other verses here, adress my arguments instead of doing whataboutisms, if anything they may need to have temporal nuke as well, but that is not a FF thread, but it is a sonic one, so please address the logic and arguments presented to you instead of giving examples without elaborating the arguments behing their treatement

@Dust_Collector Imagine Infinite Zamasu from DBS, attacking one small part of him isn't really going to help since he's still everywhere even across time. To affect all of Zamasu, which is what Zeno did, he'd have to affect him across all of time and space itself for it to work. So if anyone is able to take down an omnipresent being, that should be considered a range feat for affecting all of them.

you mean the Erasure that is considered a temporal nuke as well? it is range, but it is a temporal nuke, which is why DBH zamasu has High Godly in the first place, so if you want to use the example of other franchises, then it really helps the temporal nuke case here

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Zeno's ability is clear cut stated to be EE. It isn't remotely comparable to the cases that are being presented here whatsoever.

 

[JJSliderman]

Yeah no the Solaris fight stuff is not EE. It’s just physical attacks that exist across all of time.

 

[omegabronic]

Yeah no the Solaris fight stuff is not EE. It’s just physical attacks that exist across all of time.

i have never said that it was EE in any way

 

[LaserPrecision]

@LaserPrecision You do know affecting someone across time is hardly any different than affecting someone across the space-time continuum right? It's still a range feat to attack someone that's omnipresent. It doesn't grant any new abilities at all

The range page explicitly states that you need to affect the entire Space-Time for it to be range on a Tier 2 level.

Universal+: Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within a single 4-dimensional space-time continuum.

For abilities such as Fate Manipulation and Precognition or those similar to qualify for Universal+ range, they should have feats or statements that confirm their ability to affect a 4-dimensional space-time continuums in its entirety. Likewise, the same applies for higher tiers and the corresponding structures one would need to affect to qualify for their ranges.

Affecting only a specific region throughout time would be something else. Not to say that it HAS to be what is currently proposed on the profile, but it can't be Tier 2,1, or 0 range.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The range page explicitly states that you need to affect the entire Space-Time for it to be range on a Tier 2 level.


Affecting only a specific region throughout time would be something else. Not to say that it HAS to be what is currently proposed on the profile, but it can't be Tier 2,1, or 0 range.

It's actually pretty easy to achieve with raw AP alone. I can explain why if you want, and see if it makes sense to you.

 

[LaserPrecision]

It's actually pretty easy to achieve with raw AP alone. I can explain why if you want, and see if it makes sense to you.

If you want? If it's something accepted by the wiki I'd like to know.

 

[Theglassman12]

@omegabronic Yeah, a statement against a being temporally omnipresent, how about something that's applied to literally any and all super forms as an ability they have to attack someone across time itself? Can you provide evidence for that or no because using a temporal omnipresent being (something the wiki uses as a range feat at best) isn't helping your case.

It literally does, having Uni+ range and above by default lets you reach across time and history with your power.

This is literally just a standard for how we treat affecting omnipresent beings in the first place, this "whataboutism argument doesn't work here cause we're not talking about FF" point you're making doesn't apply when it's literally just a standard we apply to other franchises. I've already addressed your arguments, you've yet to prove that Sonic and co. in super forms remotely have this innate power to attack someone across all of time itself and keep using Solaris, someone who's omnipresent, something we've always classified as a range feat for any character who can take on and defeat an omnipresent being.

You do realize my Zeno example was used to explain to Dust why affecting someone omnipresent can give something instead of nothing right? Can you prove that attacking across time and history itself is something Super forms can do because I'm waiting for the scans that suggests that.

@LaserPrecision It can be range, it can also be an AP feat depending on the context, either way it still doesn't grant specific abilities to affect someone that's omnipresent without further context given it's a far bigger assumption to claim they gain an ability to attack literally anyone and everyone across time with their own strikes than just their own power is capable of affecting and harming a ridiculously large being.

 

[LaserPrecision]

@LaserPrecision It can be range, it can also be an AP feat depending on the context, either way it still doesn't grant specific abilities to affect someone that's omnipresent without further context given it's a far bigger assumption to claim they gain an ability to attack literally anyone and everyone across time with their own strikes than just their own power is capable of affecting and harming a ridiculously large being.

I've heard from staff before that range is only applicable if it affects the entire space-time. So wouldn't this be closer to something like interdimensional range at worst? Hitting one specific person throughout all of time without hitting anything else should be some time travelish offensive attack tbh.

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic Yeah, a statement against a being temporally omnipresent, how about something that's applied to literally any and all super forms as an ability they have to attack someone across time itself? Can you provide evidence for that or no because using a temporal omnipresent being (something the wiki uses as a range feat at best) isn't helping your case.

See, instead of giving me the logic of why that is the case, or answering the point i am making directly, all that you are saying is that "we dlm't do this" without explaing why, he can hit someone across all of their history, that is what he did to solaris, that you haven't said a reason to why he couldn't hit someone across their entire history when that is what he just did

It literally does, having Uni+ range and above by default lets you reach across time and history with your power.

does it let you snipe a single person's entire history across all of time?

This is literally just a standard for how we treat affecting omnipresent beings in the first place

Show me the writen rule then, show me the tread that accepted this

this "whataboutism argument doesn't work here cause we're not talking about FF" point you're making doesn't apply when it's literally just a standard we apply to other franchises.

show me in the rules this so called standard then

I've already addressed your arguments, you've yet to prove that Sonic and co. in super forms remotely have this innate power to attack someone across all of time itself and keep using Solaris, someone who's omnipresent, something we've always classified as a range feat for any character who can take on and defeat an omnipresent being.

to take down solaris they need to target him across all of history, please explain the logic of your argument instead of just saying "no" without explanation and just examples

You do realize my Zeno example was used to explain to Dust why affecting someone omnipresent can give something instead of nothing right? Can you prove that attacking across time and history itself is something Super forms can do because I'm waiting for the scans that suggests that.

....my dude, i have been proving this, they litterally can't defeat solaria without doing this

 

[Theglassman12]

@LaserPrecision pretty sure interdimensional range is more relegated to hopping between dimensions via teleporting or opening portals, not affecting someone across all of time itself.

@omegabronic Because your only example is someone literally omnipresent across time, that's the only time we've ever seen this happen and there's no other statements brought to the table in this thread that suggests that it's an innate ability for Super forms to begin with.

Absolutely yes, because Uni+ range by default lets you destroy an entire timeline, which therefore affects someone's entire history and time as a consequence. This should be very easy to understand.

Literally any other RPG series with omnipresent beings with them fighting said beings being accepted as range feat.

That did not answer my question whatsoever. Where is the proof that attacking someone's entire history is a normal thing the Super forms can do? Can you provide the evidence or no because your argument hinges on this being proven to be a thing.

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic Because your only example is someone literally omnipresent across time, that's the only time we've ever seen this happen and there's no other statements brought to the table in this thread that suggests that it's an innate ability for Super forms to begin with.

....it is something that even the most inexperienced at the time, Silver, could do, all 3 of them are doing that with the Emeralds, yes, it is an ability of chaos energy, since it was chaos energy that allowed them to do that in the first place

Absolutely yes, because Uni+ range by default lets you destroy an entire timeline, which therefore affects someone's entire history and time as a consequence.

yeah, but in this case they are focusing on attacking purely solaris' history, making it a specific case

This should be very easy to understand.

yeah, but it can't be that since sonic is not attacking time directly, he is attacking solaris who exists in every time period, considering that they are 2-A during that fight, for you to say that they would have attacked time directly instead of solaris would make it so that they would be destroying time, which is against what they want to do in the game, there is nothing to say that they are covering all of time, as a dimension, in the fight instead of the simpler answer that is on our face, that they are attacking Solaris' entire history to destroy him in every time period

Literally any other RPG series with omnipresent beings with them fighting said beings being accepted as range feat.

you said that his was a standard, show me the written standard, if it isn't a written standard, then explain the logic while covering the arguments, to say the examples while not explaining the logic behind why they are what they are doesn't negate what i am saying

That did not answer my question whatsoever. Where is the proof that attacking someone's entire history is a normal thing the Super forms can do?

The entire Solaris fight is the proof

Can you provide the evidence or no because your argument hinges on this being proven to be a thing.

i have been saying this over and over, that is how they defeated Solaris, that is how they were able to fight in the first place, that is the proof

 

[Theglassman12]

That's not a statement that the super forms can affect someone's entire history by punching them. Give scans that says this.

Show me the part of the solaris fight where it's stated that Super forms are capable of affecting someone's entire history. I want to see this before we continue because I want to see actual evidence of this being the case. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

 

[omegabronic]

That's not a statement that the super forms can affect someone's entire history by punching them. Give scans that says this.
Show me the part of the solaris fight where it's stated that Super forms are capable of affecting someone's entire history. I want to see this before we continue because I want to see actual evidence of this being the case. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

pretty sure i already posted before, but ok, here it is said that attacking solaris in the "now" as in, one time period, would do nothing as it exists in space through all time periods, aka past, present and future, and here it is said that they need to destroy it in all time periods "all at once", which in the context of what eggman said, we know that "it" is Solaris, so it is a very clear statement that they will attack Solaris in all time periods at once to be able to defeat it, this is implied even in the dialogue during the fight as well

 

[JJSliderman]

I mean; that’s kind of what was implied there. Solaris exists in the past, present and future simultaneously, so the characters needed to attack across all of history to beat him. Silver states that they needed to destroy him all at once, and in the boss fight you can actually deal all the damage to Solaris’s conscious with a single Super form. Since Solaris’s consciousness is connected to his body, it likely has the same temporal range, so it shows the characters can hit across a character’s history.

 

[Theglassman12]

So yeah the context is that they can't kill it in the present because it exists everywhere, so they have to just destroy all of it to kill Solaris, that's still a range feat at best for affecting him across its entirety, nothing mentions it's an innate ability for super forms to just kill someone's entire history.

 

[JJSliderman]

If they hit the same being across all of time, they are kind of nuking it’s history and future as well, just not in the conceptual type of way.

 

[omegabronic]

So yeah the context is that they can't kill it in the present because it exists everywhere, so they have to just destroy all of it to kill Solaris

huh no, they can't destroy all of "it", since "it" here is time, and they specifically are trying to stop, and they even time traveld at the end of the story, so no, they absolutely didn't destroy all of time here

, that's still a range feat at best for affecting him across its entirety, nothing mentions it's an innate ability for super forms to just kill someone's entire history.

they specificy that they will attack/destroy solaris himself accross all of history/past present and future, Solaris isn't one with time, he exist through one point in space through all of the extension of time, like how type acausality 3 entails, he is not one with time

 

[Theglassman12]

Did I remotely say he's one with time itself? I literally said he exists across the past present and future, and only attacking his present means nothing. So they resort to destroying all of it, none of this proves Super forms have an innate ability to attack any person's history with any strikes though.

 

[JJSliderman]

If they can do it with Solaris, logically they can do it to anyone.

 

[Theglassman12]

Solaris is an exception due to how his existence functions, not the rule. You need statements that Super forms in general can attack someone's history with their strikes.

 

[omegabronic]

Did I remotely say he's one with time itself? I literally said he exists across the past present and future, and only attacking his present means nothing. So they resort to destroying all of it, none of this proves Super forms have an innate ability to attack any person's history with any strikes though.

if you are admitting that Solaris exists across all time periods, and that the Super Forms destroyed all of him across all time periods, then you are literally admitting that the super forms can attack someone across all of their history, since this is exactly what you are saying they did to Solaris

 

[omegabronic]

Solaris is an exception due to how his existence functions, not the rule. You need statements that Super forms in general can attack someone's history with their strikes.

yeah you still need to give an logical explanation as to why, how would his existence magically grant them the ability to hit him across his entire history exactly?

 

[Theglassman12]

Because he's literally a being that exists across the past present and future, and they had to do something very specific in order to beat him, if attacking someone's history is something any of the Super forms can do easily why the hell does the rest of the group claim they need Sonic to help them when that should be a common ability for anyone in Super forms? The burden of proof is on you that this ability is something they normally have in Super forms.

 

[omegabronic]

Because he's literally a being that exists across the past present and future, and they had to do something very specific in order to beat him

you still haven't answered how that would magically give them the ability to hit him across his entire history, it is specific, which doesn't disprove that they can do it

if attacking someone's history is something any of the Super forms can do easily why the hell does the rest of the group claim they need Sonic to help them when that should be a common ability for anyone in Super forms?

Because Solaris was just too powerful, it is stated that super alone wouldn't be enough to beat him, they needed to team up so that they could match his power and work together to beat such a powerful being, besides, they needing Sonic doesn't disprove what they are stated to have done to beat Solaris

The burden of proof is on you that this ability is something they normally have in Super forms.

they don't have it normally, hence why we only consider that they have this when at their full power, aka the 2-B/2-A end, the low 2-C and 2-C ends of super sonic do not have the temporal nuke for them, besides, you are now saying that it is something they don't have "normally" aka implying that they still have under some circumstance, aka how we currently treat it

 

[Theglassman12]

Ok so you've admitted that this isn't a normal ability they have, meaning this isn't an innate ability for the Super forms, it's literally an AP thing for them, meaning they don't casually attack someone across history with their strikes, you can ask Agnaa if you think I'm reaching since even he says it's not enough given the little context provided with Solaris.

 

[omegabronic]

Ok so you've admitted that this isn't a normal ability they have, meaning this isn't an innate ability for the Super forms

that is not at all what i said no, i said that it isn't a standard ability for a Super Form all the time, they need to be at their peak for the temporal nuke to be in play for their attacks, don't distor what i said

it's literally an AP thing for them, meaning they don't casually attack someone across history with their strikes

pray tell, how can AP help you to attack someone across their entire History, because as i have been forced to repeat over and over, that is exactly what they are stated to have to do to beat solaris, also can you please stop using words that add nothing to the argument such as "casually"? like, what does that word even mean in this context?

, you can ask Agnaa if you think I'm reaching since even he says it's not enough given the little context provided with Solaris.

we have a statement saying that they need to attack him through all of his history to beat him, you have acknowledged this, stop moving to arguments of autority and cover the argument already

 

[JJSliderman]

Because he's literally a being that exists across the past present and future, and they had to do something very specific in order to beat him, if attacking someone's history is something any of the Super forms can do easily why the hell does the rest of the group claim they need Sonic to help them when that should be a common ability for anyone in Super forms? The burden of proof is on you that this ability is something they normally have in Super forms.

It could arguably just be needing extra strength, I checked in the game and a single super form can deal all the damage to Solaris’s conscious, so they all have the innate ability to do the temporal nuke, but may need more power to match Solaris.

 

[Theglassman12]

@JJSliderman that doesn't help your point when it's only done via being stronger, not through specific abilities.

@omegabronic I say casually because you're literally claiming that super forms can do this just by punching people, hence the other thread where you guys tried to give people that kept up with Super forms type 4 Acausality to begin with. You've yet to provide any actual evidence that they can do this as an innate ability in the first place so I'm taking this as a concession unless you can prove this extraordinary claim with extraordinary evidence.

 

[JJSliderman]

@JJSliderman that doesn't help your point when it's only done via being stronger, not through specific abilities.

The thing about being stronger in this case is referring to Super forms varying power level, in the upper echelons of super forms they have access to this range and ability.

 

[omegabronic]

@omegabronic I say casually because you're literally claiming that super forms can do this just by punching people, hence the other thread where you guys tried to give people that kept up with Super forms type 4 Acausality to begin with. You've yet to provide any actual evidence that they can do this as an innate ability in the first place

we already did, they are stated to needing to do just what we are describing, the evidence you are asking was already showed, statements and visual showings

so I'm taking this as a concession unless you can prove this extraordinary claim with extraordinary evidence.

I will consider this a concession then, considering that you just refuse to cover a d address the argument at all now, just saying "it isn't because i said so" is not an argument

 

[Theglassman12]

That is not statements and visual showings, nothing that they said about Solaris remotely mentions that Super Forms in general have the power to attack someone’s entire history with their strikes. Either way this discussion has gone on long enough, gonna apply the changes and close the thread.

 

[omegabronic]

That is not statements and visual showings, nothing that they said about Solaris remotely mentions that Super Forms in general have the power to attack someone’s entire history with their strikes. Either way this discussion has gone on long enough, gonna apply the changes and close the thread.

considering that you have no staff aproval on this but yourself, no you will not, you don't have enough staff aproval to do that

 

[CloverDragon03]

That is not statements and visual showings, nothing that they said about Solaris remotely mentions that Super Forms in general have the power to attack someone’s entire history with their strikes. Either way this discussion has gone on long enough, gonna apply the changes and close the thread.

But you have no staff agreeing with you

 

[Starter_Pack]

Either way this discussion has gone on long enough, gonna apply the changes and close the thread.

Glass, what the hell are you doing? Do not just decide the changes are good because you said so. You are not above the rules, so you must wait for other staff members to agree.

Anyway, what are the changes being discussed here?

 

[omegabronic]

Glass, what the hell are you doing? Do not just decide the changes are good because you said so. You are not above the rules, so you must wait for other staff members to agree.

Anyway, what are the changes being discussed here?

outside of all the stuff in the OP that isn't the Acausality type 4 stuff, the main point being discussed right now is the temporal nuke thing from the Solaris fight, the argument basically involves how it was stated that to defeat solaris they needed to attack through all of his history/him in the past, present and future, which is even implied by dialogue during the fight as well, i went in depth with the scans for it here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/sonic-the-hedgehog-abilities.157326/post-6012914

 

[Theuser789]

That is not statements and visual showings, nothing that they said about Solaris remotely mentions that Super Forms in general have the power to attack someone’s entire history with their strikes. Either way this discussion has gone on long enough, gonna apply the changes and close the thread.

You can't change anything without staff approval. Don't abuse your power.