Sonic the hedgehog abilities

[Theglassman12]

So some of the abilities for Sonic kinda throws me off, especially with either the lack of evidence or arguments that don't make sense. If there's any further explanations on these abilities I'd be happy to see them.

Classic Sonic:

Toon Force and elasticity: Is this considered toon force for being flattened? This looks more like body control unless being squashed flat is enough to get toon force and elasticity? This applies to everyone else with this ability. (ACCEPTED)

Mind restoration: Is this actually restoring minds cause the clip just shows Tails getting his body back, as opposed to his mind being lost and being restored. (REMOVING)

Super Forms:

Acausality type 4: So uhh, what part of the scan here implies that turning into a Super makes you function on a completely different set of laws/cause and effect rules? Because all I see is Sonic floating around until he activates the emeralds to go super, and is able to move fine, which just looks like resistance to Gravity Manipulation more than type 4 Acausality unless there's some context I'm missing here. (ACCEPTED)

Modern Sonic:

Extrasensory perception: Isn't this just enhanced senses or just his precog kicking in? Cause that's already being used for those and it doesn't mention he's using a sixth sense here. (ACCEPTED)

Immortality Negation: The types of immortality that's being negated should be in his page. (DONE)

Power Nullification: Is breaking magic barriers with the sword stated to nullify its power? Because this sounds more like an AP thing than a Power Null thing. (REMOVING)

Holy Manipulation: I don't know how it being called miracle gems or causing miracles to happen is enough for Holy Manipulation, the Shadow statement might help but that should be elaborated on as that looks like the good ending and Shadow's just fighting off random demons that appeared, nothing mentions it being a divine power that can strike down all evil in the way the Master Sword from Zelda is. (ACCEPTED)

Space-Time Manipulation and offensive time travel: So this is a bit confusing, wasn't this used for immeasurable speed to argue Sonic Silver and Shadow is able to move across time itself to fight Solaris in different points in time? Doesn't this feel redundant especially when the normal chaos emeralds already have these abilities, albeit not the offensive time travel part. (RANGE AT BEST)

Death hax resistance via Void affecting Nature Zone: The link isn't loading anything here, so I'd like to see. (REMOVING)

Muketi Monitor Power Null: Isn't this just more invulnerability if he becomes immune to other attacks with this? (ACCEPTED)

Shadow:

Greater Cold resistance: Does he break out of it like a QTE in this clip because it just looks like he just takes damage and it wears off, which doesn't look like a resistance feat to me if he doesn't break out of it easily. (ACCEPTED)

Void Manipulation: Is the only thing going for it based off the name? Cause we don't give abilities based on the name of an ability unless stated it can control a literal void. (POSSIBLE VOID HAX)

Concept hax (type 1): This is just NPI, interacting with an abstract concept would just be that, Concept hax would work if he literally kills a concept itself. Also why would attacking Solaris' Conscious be considered concept hax? That just seems like NPI as well. (REMOVING)

Chaos:

Mid-High regen: Isn't this High-Mid? Being able to come back from being shattered is High-Mid, Mid-High is for when you're completely vaporized a la Majin Buu. (POSSIBLY MID-HIGH)

Resisting Ifrit's abilities for anyone in Sonic Rivals: Is this remotely stated or shown to be passive abilities? Cause the one clip on "binding one's soul" doesn't really tell me that it's passive, let alone something he does a lot in a fight and the cast resisting it. (ACCEPTED)

The Chaos Emeralds:

Life Manipulation: How exactly is this life manipulation? Its just giving energy to any living being, it's not creating life itself. (REMOVING)

King Arthur:

What exactly is the explanation for his type 8 immortality? Cause nothing is explained there. (ACCEPTED)

Void:

Death Manipulation: It mentions the corrosion of the forest is causing them to die, not some supernatural spell that just inflicts death, this should be just corrosion inducement at best. (REMOVING)

Mephilis:

Low godly regen: This isn't regeneration, it's just shapeshifting. The fact he's forming his body into Shadow's well... shadow and just pops up after his minions die is just shapeshifting at best, it's only regen if his body gets destroyed and all that was left was his spirit and regenerated all of that. (ACCEPTED)

Iblis:

Low godly regen: Stating to resurrect while being an energy being doesn't really give me Low-Godly vibe, just that its incorporeal in its true state and that it comes back to live, which is type 4 Immortality at best. (ACCEPTED)

Solaris:

Type 4 Acausality: What part of this explanation gives type 4? Cause I don't see how hitting him in all points in time means it functions in a different set of laws and not just being temporally omnipresent. (REMOVING)

The End:

Abstract Existence and Nonexistent physiology: Being the embodiment of death is type 2 AE, not type 1 since embodiment means being a physical form of something, also is it remotely elaborated on by "infinite and nothing" cause that seems too vague for NEP. (POSSIBLE TYPE 2 ABSTRACT STAYS, NEP GOES AWAY)

Concept (type 1) and Perception Manipulation: What makes this type 1? Cause I don't see any scans that imply it's independant of reality, also perception manipulation sounds more like shapeshifting if it changes its form based on how people perceive it, also also the link has like no translations on what the devs are saying so that would be nice to see. (PERCEPTION STAYS, CONCEPT IS REMOVED)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Toon Force/Elasticity is legit, we had a whole thread where we decided getting cartoonishly flattened falls under those two

About Regeneration due to being crushed flat

This thread is about an issue that bothered me for quite some time. Basically, several characters on the wiki treat being crushed flat and recover like Mid Regeneration. The problem is that this should be considered Elasticy, unless their bones and innards are shown to be literally splattered...

vsbattles.com

 

[JJSliderman]

So some of the abilities for Sonic kinda throws me off, especially with either the lack of evidence or arguments that don't make sense. If there's any further explanations on these abilities I'd be happy to see them.

Classic Sonic:

Mind restoration: Is this actually restoring minds cause the clip just shows Tails getting his body back, as opposed to his mind being lost and being restored.

In context the characters got their space and time removed/erased, leaving their soul and mind in limbo, and Sonic’s power restored that. So I might agree with dropping it because the mind is still intact.

Super Forms:

Acausality type 4: So uhh, what part of the scan here implies that turning into a Super makes you function on a completely different set of laws/cause and effect rules? Because all I see is Sonic floating around until he activates the emeralds to go super, and is able to move fine, which just looks like resistance to Gravity Manipulation more than type 4 Acausality unless there's some context I'm missing here.

The realm of null space is meant to signify reality breaking down and time not flowing linearly, instead jumping around back and forth and into imaginary time at random, which I imagine is where the realm running on different rules than the main reality came from.

Power Nullification: Is breaking magic barriers with the sword stated to nullify its power? Because this sounds more like an AP thing than a Power Null thing.

Thanks for bringing this up cuz I brought it up in a recent thread and didn’t articulate it well, Sonic can dispel Magic attacks by swinging his sword at them and he can destroy barriers by chipping away at them with his sword, but I agree it shouldn’t be full power null.

Space-Time Manipulation and offensive time travel: So this is a bit confusing, wasn't this used for immeasurable speed to argue Sonic Silver and Shadow is able to move across time itself to fight Solaris in different points in time? Doesn't this feel redundant especially when the normal chaos emeralds already have these abilities, albeit not the offensive time travel part.

The immeasurable justification now is Sonic flying to the end of time to fight Time Eater and being able to dodge temporal omnipresent attacks.

Death hax resistance via Void affecting Nature Zone: The link isn't loading anything here, so I'd like to see.

Sonic and friends can fight Void’s amped form, granted I don’t think it was ever stated Void’s killing of the Nature Zone was passive so I sort of agree it could be removed.

Muteki Monitor Power Null: Isn't this just more invulnerability if he becomes immune to other attacks with this?

Users of the monitor actually become immune to status effects like having your controls flipped, in games like Drift

Void Manipulation: Is the only thing going for it based off the name? Cause we don't give abilities based on the name of an ability unless stated it can control a literal void.

It created a black hole effect that sucks in other objects but I don’t think we see inside the Wisp to know if it is a void, I’m fine removing it.

Concept hax (type 1): This is just NPI, interacting with an abstract concept would just be that, Concept hax would work if he literally kills a concept itself. Also why would attacking Solaris' Conscious be considered concept hax? That just seems like NPI as well.

The Solaris stuff is more connected to enhanced NPI than concept hax, and for The End he’s fighting and helped kill the aforementioned death concept, even if it was only an avatar.

Chaos:
Mid-High regen: Isn't this High-Mid? Being able to come back from being shattered is High-Mid, Mid-High is for when you're completely vaporized a la Majin Buu.

Yeah it probably should be high-mid

Resisting Ifrit's abilities for anyone in Sonic Rivals: Is this remotely stated or shown to be passive abilities? Cause the one clip on "binding one's soul" doesn't really tell me that it's passive, let alone something he does a lot in a fight and the cast resisting it.

Generally whenever Ifrit shows up near someone it haxxes them, and it generally lacks much in the way of intelligence. The fact in its fight it never succeeds with the hax on any of the characters who have the full resistance during the boss fight should demonstrate the resistance is fine.

King Arthur:

What exactly is the explanation for his type 8 immortality? Cause nothing is explained there.

As long as the Scabbard is near him or he’s holding it, he’s basically immortal, that’s the reasoning.

Void:

Death Manipulation: It mentions the corrosion of the forest is causing them to die, not some supernatural spell that just inflicts death, this should be just corrosion inducement at best.

Agreed

Mephilis:

Low godly regen: This isn't regeneration, it's just shapeshifting. The fact he's forming his body into Shadow's well... shadow and just pops up after his minions die is just shapeshifting at best, it's only regen if his body gets destroyed and all that was left was his spirit and regenerated all of that.

It specifically states he creates a corporeal body for himself after being in the form of an incorporeal shadow, that should be low-godly.

Iblis:

Low godly regen: Stating to resurrect while being an energy being doesn't really give me Low-Godly vibe, just that its incorporeal in its true state and that it comes back to live, which is type 4 Immortality at best.

Iblis can’t truly be killed, that’s why they had to seal it, if they hadn’t sealed it the energy form we see in the final Silver cutscene would have recreated a body for itself to continue doing damage

Concept (type 1) and Perception Manipulation: What makes this type 1? Cause I don't see any scans that imply it's independant of reality, also perception manipulation sounds more like shapeshifting if it changes its form based on how people perceive it, also also the link has like no translations on what the devs are saying so that would be nice to see.

The End doesn’t actually change shape, it just appears differently based on who is looking at it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I have several things I disagree with but I'll go over them later

 

[Theglassman12]

@Maverick_Zero_X thanks for the clarification.

@JJSliderman That doesn't really tell me Super forms function on a different set of laws though. Especially when it shows Sonic just floating around and the Super form stops the floating, which just looks like gravity resistance at best.

That doesn't really answer my question on how it's space-time manipulation for attacking solaris instead of just going through time and hitting him.

If that's the case then I'd be fine with power null for the muteki monitor then.

Killing an avatar doesn't mean concept hax though. That's the exact opposite of having concept hax to begin with, plus the only thing implying it's a concept is that it's the embodiment of death, not the actual concept of death itself.

If there's any clips on Iblis' abilities flat out not working I'd like to see them.

Should be on Arthur's page then.

He merged with his shadow and came out after his minions die, that's not regen, especially if his body wasn't destroyed down to his soul remaining and reformed from that.

That still doesn't tell me anything about Iblis' regen.

Ok, that doesn't really answer my question on the type 1 concept stuff.

 

[omegabronic]

i will nt be answering the ones i am neutral about, to make things a little more clearer to read

So some of the abilities for Sonic kinda throws me off, especially with either the lack of evidence or arguments that don't make sense. If there's any further explanations on these abilities I'd be happy to see them.

Classic Sonic:

Toon Force and elasticity: Is this considered toon force for being flattened? This looks more like body control unless being squashed flat is enough to get toon force and elasticity? This applies to everyone else with this ability.

this was a general revision for getting flatened and then recovering, it was regeneration beforehand

Super Forms:

Acausality type 4: So uhh, what part of the scan here implies that turning into a Super makes you function on a completely different set of laws/cause and effect rules? Because all I see is Sonic floating around until he activates the emeralds to go super, and is able to move fine, which just looks like resistance to Gravity Manipulation more than type 4 Acausality unless there's some context I'm missing here.

time in the Eggreverie zone keeps going backwards and onwards, basically going in a non linear flow, in virtue of that, the systems of cause and effect that need time to occur for 3D beings also get trowed back and forth, making normal causes happen before the effect of the cause and so on and so forth, base characters can't act at all in this dimension and are rendered helpless until they use the emeralds, which at this point they can move freely

Modern Sonic:

Extrasensory perception: Isn't this just enhanced senses or just his precog kicking in? Cause that's already being used for those and it doesn't mention he's using a sixth sense here.

Sonic's precog is different, i guess it could be changed to enhanced senses tho

Immortality Negation: The types of immortality that's being negated should be in his page.

agreed

Power Nullification: Is breaking magic barriers with the sword stated to nullify its power? Because this sounds more like an AP thing than a Power Null thing.

he can null the magic attack that merlina trows at him

Holy Manipulation: I don't know how it being called miracle gems or causing miracles to happen is enough for Holy Manipulation, the Shadow statement might help but that should be elaborated on as that looks like the good ending and Shadow's just fighting off random demons that appeared, nothing mentions it being a divine power that can strike down all evil in the way the Master Sword from Zelda is.

but there is, in sonic adventure 1 the emeralds could fight off and purefy perfect chaos, who was full to the brim with negative energy and malicious thoughts and emotions, i have no idea why that was not put alongside holy manip tho, it should be reajusted to include those

Space-Time Manipulation and offensive time travel: So this is a bit confusing, wasn't this used for immeasurable speed to argue Sonic Silver and Shadow is able to move across time itself to fight Solaris in different points in time? Doesn't this feel redundant especially when the normal chaos emeralds already have these abilities, albeit not the offensive time travel part.

not very sure of what you are arguing here, for the immeasurable speed part, the argument is that, since solaris attacks at all time periods at once, they dodging it is exactly like dodging an attack that already striked, and in virtue of it being through all of time means that the only way to dodge it is with immeasurable speed

now for the redundant part? are you saying that the space time manip is redundant to be there since the emeralds do that already? sorry, i don't think i got that much, could you explain better what you mean?

Death hax resistance via Void affecting Nature Zone: The link isn't loading anything here, so I'd like to see.

it is in Void's profile


we didn't substituted the other links to the imgur ones yet

Muketi Monitor Power Null: Isn't this just more invulnerability if he becomes immune to other attacks with this?

i mean, invulnerability doesn't block off hax, does it?

Shadow:

Greater Cold resistance: Does he break out of it like a QTE in this clip because it just looks like he just takes damage and it wears off, which doesn't look like a resistance feat to me if he doesn't break out of it easily.

you mash the buttons and then he breaks free of it

Void Manipulation: Is the only thing going for it based off the name? Cause we don't give abilities based on the name of an ability unless stated it can control a literal void.

are you talking about the resistance or the ability with violet void?

Concept hax (type 1): This is just NPI, interacting with an abstract concept would just be that, Concept hax would work if he literally kills a concept itself. Also why would attacking Solaris' Conscious be considered concept hax? That just seems like NPI as well.

it should, people just forgot to change that on the profile like they did with sonic

Chaos:

Mid-High regen: Isn't this High-Mid? Being able to come back from being shattered is High-Mid, Mid-High is for when you're completely vaporized a la Majin Buu.

i guess, i agree on this one

Resisting Ifrit's abilities for anyone in Sonic Rivals: Is this remotely stated or shown to be passive abilities? Cause the one clip on "binding one's soul" doesn't really tell me that it's passive, let alone something he does a lot in a fight and the cast resisting it.

the moment ifrit awakens people get controled by it, even when it shouldn't even know people are there to be controled in the first place

The Chaos Emeralds:

Life Manipulation: How exactly is this life manipulation? Its just giving energy to any living being, it's not creating life itself.

it gives the life energy to all living things, seens verbatim like life manip

King Arthur:

What exactly is the explanation for his type 8 immortality? Cause nothing is explained there.

as long as he has his scabard he won't die, no idea why that isn't there, L on our part tbh

Mephilis:

Low godly regen: This isn't regeneration, it's just shapeshifting. The fact he's forming his body into Shadow's well... shadow and just pops up after his minions die is just shapeshifting at best, it's only regen if his body gets destroyed and all that was left was his spirit and regenerated all of that.

Iblis:

Low godly regen: Stating to resurrect while being an energy being doesn't really give me Low-Godly vibe, just that its incorporeal in its true state and that it comes back to live, which is type 4 Immortality at best.

both of them are made purely of energy, and any damage done to the bodies they made can be fixed by them easily since they are made of nothing but energy

Solaris:

Type 4 Acausality: What part of this explanation gives type 4? Cause I don't see how hitting him in all points in time means it functions in a different set of laws and not just being temporally omnipresent.

it is a normal power given by all 7 emeralds, a sandbox for chaos energy explaining this kind of stuff better is in the works

Concept (type 1) and Perception Manipulation: What makes this type 1? Cause I don't see any scans that imply it's independant of reality, also perception manipulation sounds more like shapeshifting if it changes its form based on how people perceive it, also also the link has like no translations on what the devs are saying so that would be nice to see.

it can't be shapeshifting if it isn't shifting its shape, but looking different depending on who is seeing it

 

[Theglassman12]

I'll wait for everyone's responses before I comment back.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Concept (type 1) and Perception Manipulation: What makes this type 1? Cause I don't see any scans that imply it's independant of reality, also perception manipulation sounds more like shapeshifting if it changes its form based on how people perceive it, also also the link has like no translations on what the devs are saying so that would be nice to see.

The removal of conceptual manipulation type 1 from The End's profile was accepted in this thread but Everything12 was never able to apply it to the profile...

So feel free to apply the change.

 

[Theuser789]

Mind restoration: Is this actually restoring minds cause the clip just shows Tails getting his body back, as opposed to his mind being lost and being restored.

I actually agree with this. Espio mentions being concious when Time Eater erased him, so I don't think this should stay.

Acausality type 4: So uhh, what part of the scan here implies that turning into a Super makes you function on a completely different set of laws/cause and effect rules? Because all I see is Sonic floating around until he activates the emeralds to go super, and is able to move fine, which just looks like resistance to Gravity Manipulation more than type 4 Acausality unless there's some context I'm missing here.

It's because the timer in Egg Reverie fluctuates heavily. You can see the timer jumping around endlessly and without reason.

Extrasensory perception: Isn't this just enhanced senses or just his precog kicking in? Cause that's already being used for those and it doesn't mention he's using a sixth sense here.

In Frontiers Sonic has a danger sense where he can detect enemy attacks. There's also the sneeze but I agree it should be elaborated.

Immortality Negation: The types of immortality that's being negated should be in his page.

True. It's type 8. That should be added.

Power Nullification: Is breaking magic barriers with the sword stated to nullify its power? Because this sounds more like an AP thing than a Power Null thing.

Honestly Power Null going away for Excalibur should be fine-ish. I don't think Excalibur is nulling the barriers, just cutting them.

Holy Manipulation: I don't know how it being called miracle gems or causing miracles to happen is enough for Holy Manipulation, the Shadow statement might help but that should be elaborated on as that looks like the good ending and Shadow's just fighting off random demons that appeared, nothing mentions it being a divine power that can strike down all evil in the way the Master Sword from Zelda is.

I don't think the emeralds have a "holy power" either, I don't think the miracle statments are holy manipulation.

Space-Time Manipulation and offensive time travel: So this is a bit confusing, wasn't this used for immeasurable speed to argue Sonic Silver and Shadow is able to move across time itself to fight Solaris in different points in time? Doesn't this feel redundant especially when the normal chaos emeralds already have these abilities, albeit not the offensive time travel part.

Agreed.

Greater Cold resistance: Does he break out of it like a QTE in this clip because it just looks like he just takes damage and it wears off, which doesn't look like a resistance feat to me if he doesn't break out of it easily.

I don't know what clip is being used, but I do think he breaks out of it easily if the clip is from the Rivals games.

Void Manipulation: Is the only thing going for it based off the name? Cause we don't give abilities based on the name of an ability unless stated it can control a literal void.

If this is about the Void wisp, it is because it can control a void, yeah. This was discuss plenty of times, actually.

Concept hax (type 1): This is just NPI, interacting with an abstract concept would just be that, Concept hax would work if he literally kills a concept itself. Also why would attacking Solaris' Conscious be considered concept hax? That just seems like NPI as well.

I think Concept Hax was supposed to be removed awhile ago, and the justification is just about The End part.

Mid-High regen: Isn't this High-Mid? Being able to come back from being shattered is High-Mid, Mid-High is for when you're completely vaporized a la Majin Buu.

It's Mid-High because Knuckles doesn't see any parts of Chaos after beating him, and afterwards the Egg Carrier explodes and Chaos still regens from that.

Resisting Ifrit's abilities for anyone in Sonic Rivals: Is this remotely stated or shown to be passive abilities? Cause the one clip on "binding one's soul" doesn't really tell me that it's passive, let alone something he does a lot in a fight and the cast resisting it.

Yes. There was an entire thread about this feat before, and everyone agreed on that. Ifrit does it when it's awakened, and the characters unafected simply resist it.

Life Manipulation: How exactly is this life manipulation? Its just giving energy to any living being, it's not creating life itself.

Honestly agreed.

Low godly regen: This isn't regeneration, it's just shapeshifting. The fact he's forming his body into Shadow's well... shadow and just pops up after his minions die is just shapeshifting at best, it's only regen if his body gets destroyed and all that was left was his spirit and regenerated all of that.

It is regeneration. Part of 06 plot is that both Mephiles and Iblis can't be killed, because of the fact they always regenerate after dying. They are supposed to be inmortal. The scene you're showing is Mephiles being defeated by Shadow and returning to his original form, Shadow trying to seal him and failing, and Mephiles regenerating.

Low godly regen: Stating to resurrect while being an energy being doesn't really give me Low-Godly vibe, just that its incorporeal in its true state and that it comes back to live, which is type 4 Immortality at best.

The same about Mephiles. Everytime Iblis is defeated, he returns back to his true form as a small flame (which isn't incorporeal, Silver can stun it with his powers), and then regenerates back to form.

Type 4 Acausality: What part of this explanation gives type 4? Cause I don't see how hitting him in all points in time means it functions in a different set of laws and not just being temporally omnipresent.

I am honestly not sure. Solaris is just supposed to be temporaly omnipresent.

Abstract Existence and Nonexistent physiology: Being the embodiment of death is type 2 AE, not type 1 since embodiment means being a physical form of something, also is it remotely elaborated on by "infinite and nothing" cause that seems too vague for NEP.

Agreed with both. Somewhat.

Concept (type 1) and Perception Manipulation: What makes this type 1? Cause I don't see any scans that imply it's independant of reality, also perception manipulation sounds more like shapeshifting if it changes its form based on how people perceive it, also also the link has like no translations on what the devs are saying so that would be nice to see.

Concept manipulation was agreed to be removed. The End doesn't change form, it is simply viewed by people differently. Agree with the translation, but I haven't seen a direct translation for that.

 

[Starsprite53]

time in the Eggreverie zone keeps going backwards and onwards, basically going in a non linear flow, in virtue of that, the systems of cause and effect that need time to occur for 3D beings also get trowed back and forth, making normal causes happen before the effect of the cause and so on and so forth, base characters can't act at all in this dimension and are rendered helpless until they use the emeralds, which at this point they can move freely

That sounds like a basic resistence to time manipulation, if someone moves time backwards or forwards and I didn't get affacted, I resist time hax not sure why we have to reach and we stick it to acausality, also base characters can literally move and float but that's rather of the uncanny gravity of the place than time whimey shenanigans, Also is there any good evidence that time was moving back and forth and not because of the timer (which is vague by itself) acting crazy?
because places that ***** up with watches and devices are anything new (such as in adventure time)

 

[omegabronic]

That sounds like a basic resistence to time manipulation, if someone moves time backwards or forwards and I didn't get affacted, I resist time hax not sure why we have to reach and we stick it to acausality

Quoting @ShadowWarrior1999 the one who made the upgrade to type 4:
the reason it qualifies as type 4 acausality is that the realm in question, Egg Reverie Zone shows a demonstrable effect on the characters that enter it. Base characters can’t function and are left in limbo. With how time behaves in it, switching back and forth, effect precedes cause which means it has a different system of causality. On another note, Solaris despite his temporal omnipresence is unable to predict the super forms’ attacks on him which further supports the notion of super forms being acausal.

also base characters can literally move and float but that's rather of the uncanny gravity of the place than time whimey shenanigans

no they can't, they are left in a state of limbo where they can't move on their owm at all, only being able to do so when the chaos emeralds charge them

, Also is there any good evidence that time was moving back and forth and not because of the timer (which is vague by itself) acting crazy?

The timer is anything but vague, it is representing time, it is very clear what intention was

because places that ***** up with watches and devices are anything new (such as in adventure time)

Thr timer is not even a device so not really relevant

 

[ImmortalDread]

I disagree with removal of Acausality type 4 based on the reasons above. The implications and the nature of characters quite indicate a different causality system.

 

[Starsprite53]

the reason it qualifies as type 4 acausality is that the realm in question, Egg Reverie Zone shows a demonstrable effect on the characters that enter it. Base characters can’t function and are left in limbo. With how time behaves in it, switching back and forth, effect precedes cause which means it has a different system of causality. On another note, Solaris despite his temporal omnipresence is unable to predict the super forms’ attacks on him which further supports the notion of super forms being acausal.

Where was it implied that they can't fonction?
They float and rotate and that's because of the junky gravity and we see that in rings too (eggman is perfectly fine btw), if anything, their age and postions would change constantly if time was really going back and forth
Also no, temporal omnipresence doesn't auto give you Precognition and retrocognition, that was never a thing

no they can't, they are left in a state of limbo where they can't move on their owm at all, only being able to do so when the chaos emeralds charge them

And that's mainly because of gravity, Sonic and co literally spin and move before they transform and emeralds go inside them anyways

The timer is anything but vague, it is representing time, it is very clear what intention was

Thr timer is not even a device so not really relevant

It represents the time Sonic takes to complete the level, it goes from 00:00.0 to XX:XX.X and stops couting when sonic finishes the level it's literally a timer, Sonic Generations implies that too with showing a timer symbole text to the counting, heck you literally remove some seconds from it when you touch a timer item bonus and doesn't effect the environment or do anything.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

(such as in adventure time)

Irrelevant because Sonic isn't adventure time

 

[JJSliderman]

Kind of agree, even Ian said the timer breaking down was more an indicator of reality itself being unstable inside the reverie, which I know doesn’t mean much but the idea makes sense.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Where was it implied that they can't fonction?
They float and rotate and that's because of the junky gravity and we see that in rings too (eggman is perfectly fine btw), if anything, their age and postions would change constantly if time was really going back and forth

Base Characters? Because, as shown both in the prelude to the fight and in its aftermath, Base characters are inherently unable to move on their own. Speculation of gravity is unfounded.

And that's mainly because of gravity, Sonic and co literally spin and move before they transform and emeralds go inside them anyways

This is absolute headcanon. This has nothing to do with gravity and never has been, this is you shilling an alternate take on the argument that makes even less sense.

It represents the time Sonic takes to complete the level, it goes from 00:00.0 to XX:XX.X and stops couting when sonic finishes the level it's literally a timer, Sonic Generations implies that too with showing a timer symbole text to the counting, heck you literally remove some seconds from it when you touch a timer item bonus and doesn't effect the environment or do anything.

I'm sorry but this is complete headcanon. You're taking am instance of blatant gameplay mechanics (-5 seconds to a timer) and somehow saying that equates to a realm that makes the timer go haywire. One has a basis within the story (the Egg Reverie Zone being a realm of distorted time) while one is... For a challenge in a mini-game.

Your arguments are basically "it's not this because it's more likely this" and then giving garbage arguments and trying to pass them off as more realistic than our interpretation.

 

[Starsprite53]

Base Characters? Because, as shown bith in the beginning and the end of the fight, Base characters are inherently unable to move on their own. Speculation of gravity is ununfounded.

This is absolute headcanon. This has nothing to do with gravity and never has been, this is you shilling an alternate take on the argument that makes even less sense.

They can freely move their body parts before they transform (spinning and DBZ charging stand)
Rings float randomly in air, if it's not gravity what do you think it is? And I'm sure Time going back and forth doesn't do that

I'm sorry but this is complete headcanon. You're taking am instance of blatant gameplay mechanics (-5 seconds to a timer) and somehow saying that equates to a realm that makes the timer go haywire. One has a basis within the story (the Egg Reverie Zone being a realm of distorted time) while one is... For a challenge in a mini-game.

You just conceded that it's a timer, that's moslty what I care about despite you misinterpreting what I said
Not sure what do you mean "basis within the story" since it was never stated to be a realm of distorted time, all we see is a timer acting crazy and why are you dismissing it as just a "mini-game" when it's important to finish it for the completion of restoring the area

 

[omegabronic]

(eggman is perfectly fine btw)

because he is the specific machine that gives him acausality type 4, see the profile

Also no, temporal omnipresence doesn't auto give you Precognition and retrocognition, that was never a thing

It quite litterally does, solaris would be seeing all of their future actions at once, because he exists in all of time, plus the fact that solaris, even with his manipulation of fate itself, couldn't win is further indication of acausality

And that's mainly because of gravity, Sonic and co literally spin and move before they transform and emeralds go inside them anyways

as shake pointed, no they don't. They are completely helpless and not moving on their own until the emeralds charge them

 

[ShakeResounding]

They can freely move their body parts before they transform (spinning and DBZ charging stand)

They can't. The spinning is out of control and they don't stand until after they take in the Emeralds.

Rings float randomly in air, if it's not gravity what do you think it is? And I'm sure Time going back and forth doesn't do that.

I don't have to prove it's not gravity because the manipulation of the timer already indicates otherwise; fluctuating time. It's you who now must prove why it's gravity.

You just conceded that it's a timer, that's moslty what I care about despite you misinterpreting what I said

But... There's no concession to make? It IS a timer, just like there's a timer in nearly any Sonic stage? Anybody with eyes can see this.

Not sure what do you mean "basis within the story" since it was never stated to be a realm of distorted time, all we see is a timer acting crazy and why are you dismissing it as just a "mini-game" when it's important to finish it for the completion of restoring the area

There's a fundamental difference between them; one is partaking in an optional mini-game with a timer subtraction gimmick to shoot for the best score. The other is a storytelling subtlety and passive effect that happens solely within the arena the final boss takes place in, which can never be replicated and is in fact a necessary battle to get the true ending of the game (the same cannot be said for Blaze's minigame). That's the difference. The fact that you think you can equate those things to an equal level of importance is baffling..

 

[Theuser789]

Kind of agree, even Ian said

Stopped reading right here. Ian is not a realible source for games he wasn't involved in.

 

[omegabronic]

They can freely move their body parts before they transform (spinning and DBZ charging stand)

They are not freely moving at all, spining in a state of void because of the enviroment/dimension's doing with them having no say in the matter is not any indication tha they can move. And the charging stand? Yeah, only happens once the emeralds get absorbed/charge the character

Rings float randomly in air

You mean the rings that in habitants/natural of the dimension itself and thus would be following its law of cause and effect? Sure, what of them?

if it's not gravity what do you think it is?

do you actually have any evidence for "gravity" in the dimension to be the cause or acting different at all or are you just shouting a possibity you want to be true to "counter" the option you don't like?

And I'm sure Time going back and forth doesn't do that

Doesn't do.....what exactly?

You just conceded that it's a timer, that's moslty what I care about despite you misinterpreting what I said
Not sure what do you mean "basis within the story" since it was never stated to be a realm of distorted time, all we see is a timer acting crazy and why are you dismissing it as just a "mini-game" when it's important to finish it for the completion of restoring the area

My dude, the timer represents time, there game mechanics that use it sure, but in this situation it is clearly a lore based situation seen as how there is absolutely no mechanic that is using the timer now, it is clear what the developers wanted to portray here

 

[Theglassman12]

So is Gilad and Shake gonna respond to the OP or should I start making responses soon?

 

[ShakeResounding]

So is Gilad and Shake gonna respond to the OP or should I start making responses soon?

You can start with the responses, I can only spend time sparingly today so I won't be making a full-fledged response.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So is Gilad and Shake gonna respond to the OP or should I start making responses soon?

You can start, I can't write a full length response right now either

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

it's important to finish it for the completion of restoring the area

No it isn't. You can skip it completely and Sonic would restore everything anyways in the ending regardless if you completed the side missions or not. This goes to show their importance (or lack thereof) to the story

 

[Theglassman12]

Kk, I’ll try to get a response done later today, got an exam to prep for.

 

[ShakeResounding]

got an exam to prep for.

Good luck on your exam! Thankfully I won't be missing those lol

 

[omegabronic]

Kk, I’ll try to get a response done later today, got an exam to prep for.

Good luck to you, i wish

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'll keep all the talk of Acausality in this one post. Let's take a look at Type 4 Acausality, starting with the first paragraph.

"Acausality is the ability to act unrestrained by conventional cause and effect, on a scale that varies depending on the character.

Bingo, here we have our first indication that Super Forms being undeterred by the Egg Reverie's timeflux is an indicator of Acausality. Let's go down to Type 4 specifically.

"Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality.

Different and irregular.
I'll use the same quote from ShadowWarrior that was used above.

The reason it qualifies as type 4 acausality is that the realm in question, Egg Reverie Zone shows a demonstrable effect on the characters that enter it. Base characters can’t function and are left in limbo. With how time behaves in it, switching back and forth, effect precedes cause which means it has a different system of causality

Let's combine these; the Egg Reverie is a separate dimension where Base characters are unable to act without the assistance of the Chaos Emeralds. When the Chaos Emeralds enter a helpless individual in the Egg Reverie, they gain control of their movements once the transformation is achieved. Likewise, when the battle is complete and they detransform, they're left helpless once again until they're kicked from the Egg Reverie Zone. The "cause and effect" that Super Forms are showing to be unrestrained by is Time. This isn't solely Time Manipulation because it isn't an application of a hax used by the Phantom King, but a fundamental basis to the Egg Reverie itself. Hopefully this was clear with as little confusion as possible.

Edit: Gotta leave my house to do some stuff, I'll be back later to keep up with this thread.

 

[Starsprite53]

because he is the specific machine that gives him acausality type 4, see the profile

That doesn't make sense, that could work if he is merged with the machine or something but he is just standing on his chaire and control it

It quite litterally does, solaris would be seeing all of their future actions at once, because he exists in all of time, plus the fact that solaris, even with his manipulation of fate itself, couldn't win is further indication of acausality

No it doesn't and I'm sure that's not in the site standards, if that was the case solaris would have prevented Sonic and Elise from turning his candle off, Also Solaris doesn't manipulate fate and even then he never did in the fight, just because he has an ability doesn't mean he use when it's cleary he hasn't, everyone and their mothers in the game meant by changing fate as in traveling through time and prevent events (like Elise's mother's death)

They can't. The spinning is out of control amd they don't stand until after they take in the Emeralds.

I'm talking about their transformation animation (actually speaking that out loud sounds like I'm nitpicking)

I don't have to prove it's not gravity because the manipulation of the timer already indicates otherwise; fluctuating time. It's you who now must prove why it's gravity.

Already made by case, the characters and rings float in the air

But... There's no concession to make? It IS a timer, just like there's a timer in nearly any Sonic stage? Anybody with eyes can see this

Thank You

There's a fundamental difference between them; one is partaking in an optional mini-game with a timer subtraction gimmick to shoot for the best score. The other is a storytelling subtlety and passive effect that happens solely within the arena the final boss takes place in, which can never be replicated and is in fact a necessary battle to get the true ending of the game (the same cannot be said for Blaze's minigame). That's the difference. The fact that you think you can equate those things to an equal level of importance is baffling..

I never tried to compare them, i just used sonic generation to furthur prove that there is a timer

They are not freely moving at all, spining in a state of void because of the enviroment/dimension's doing with them having no say in the matter is not any indication tha they can move. And the charging stand? Yeah, only happens once the emeralds get absorbed/charge the character

They spin and move before they got the emeralds absorbed into them tho

You mean the rings that in habitants/natural of the dimension itself and thus would be following its law of cause and effect? Sure, what of them?

Following that and yet they still float like the cast even tho that was your additional evidence for acausality?
Also rhetorical questioning doesn't help either

do you actually have any evidence for "gravity" in the dimension to be the cause or acting different at all or are you just shouting a possibity you want to be true to "counter" the option you don't like?

Read again what I said because I'm not going to repeat myself thrice, and saying this "shouting a possibity you want to be true to "counter" the option you don't like?" doesn't make your argument stronger nor make mine weaker, espacially when that's not What I'm doing

Doesn't do.....what exactly?

Makes you float and rotate? Usually gravity does that

My dude, the timer represents time, there game mechanics that use it sure, but in this situation it is clearly a lore based situation seen as how there is absolutely no mechanic that is using the timer now, it is clear what the developers wanted to portray here

Yeah I can also say developers wanted to portray that the place messes with timer and so on and so forth and still we couldn't reach a conclusion, slapping your headcanon into the developers intention won't change anything

 

[Starsprite53]

Kk, I’ll try to get a response done later today, got an exam to prep for.

Good luck

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'm talking about their transformation animation (actually speaking that out loud sounds like I'm nitpicking)

Because it is.

Already made by case, the characters and rings float in the air

So your evidence is "they're floating". I'm sorry, but Rings floating in the air isn't something new to Sonic. And last I checked, you are no expert on gravity to attempt to lecture me about its effects and possibilities here. You offered no evidence, just a repeat of your argument in different terms, and if this pattern continues where your evidence is simply what's shown, I'll simply stop responding to you because that has never been enough. You need contextual evidence, something you're in short supply of when the circumstances already favor the current interpretation of the context rather than your own.

I never tried to compare them, i just used sonic generation to furthur prove that there is a timer

But you don't need to do this because, like, we SEE that there's a timer. The entire basis of what you were arguing prior was you bringing up a separate occasions where the timer is manipulated and then using the Egg Reverie instance, and assuming it gives them equal precedent in this argument because they both involve the timer.

 

[Starsprite53]

I will reply to this after I go back from work

 

[omegabronic]

That doesn't make sense, that could work if he is merged with the machine or something but he is just standing on his chaire and control it

he is inside the machine, no idea why he would "need" to be merged with it for the said machine to give him powers

No it doesn't and I'm sure that's not in the site standards

my explanation fits with them so please talk about said explanation instead of just saying "standards"

if that was the case solaris would have prevented Sonic and Elise from turning his candle off

no he wouldn't since:
1 that was after his temporal omnipresent form was completely destroyed in both body and mind
and 2 that was a pacified version of him

Also Solaris doesn't manipulate fate

he does, verbatim stated, see the profile

and even then he never did in the fight, just because he has an ability doesn't mean he use when it's cleary he hasn't

1 we don't know if he did or didn't, so show any proof to afimr either one or simply don't
2 he didn't even tried to use it even if it would benefit him, which is further support for type 4 acausality

everyone and their mothers in the game meant by changing fate as in traveling through time and prevent events (like Elise's mother's death)

see the profile, make a thread later or don't use non accepted stuff as an argument here

I'm talking about their transformation animation (actually speaking that out loud sounds like I'm nitpicking)

you mean the one that happens only after the emerald enter/empower the said character? yeah (it sounds like nitpicking on your side yeah)

Already made by case, the characters and rings float in the air

already made an argument for them

Thank You

I never tried to compare them, i just used sonic generation to furthur prove that there is a timer

are you going to adress the story telling part of the argument or...?

They spin and move before they got the emeralds absorbed into them tho

your point being? they are helpless and can't move on their own, left in a void state, like, how does this matter at all?

Following that and yet they still float like the cast even tho that was your additional evidence for acausality?
Also rhetorical questioning doesn't help either

yeah they float........sorry but i can't see your argument here

Read again what I said because I'm not going to repeat myself thrice

sorry but i did and still find no evidence or statement for "gravity" when i asked you said "well what could it be then?" and we already answered what it is actually shown to be, you can't complain about repeating yourself if you have given no proof for your argument at all in the first place

and saying this "shouting a possibity you want to be true to "counter" the option you don't like?" doesn't make your argument stronger nor make mine weaker, espacially when that's not What I'm doing

yes it is, you literally gave no proof of it being gravity at all this entire time

Makes you float and rotate? Usually gravity does that

and we have evidence that it is something else, evidence that has been stated to you already and that is shown in the game, while we have no evidence or proof given for gravity to be what is going there, sorry, but we will go with what the evidence has shown and not another possible thing that is not proved

Yeah I can also say developers wanted to portray that the place messes with timer and so on and so forth

you could, but occam's razor would make us go with the simpler answer, that being that they want to portray that place with time screwed and flowing non linearly, again, timer = representation of time, so please provide evidence for what you are saying by addressing the arguments directly

and still we couldn't reach a conclusion, slapping your headcanon into the developers intention won't change anything

it is not a headcanon, it is the most logical answer based on the information we have, you however, did use lots of headcanon here

 

[ShakeResounding]

no he wouldn't since:
1 that was after his temporal omnipresent form was completely destroyed in both body and mind
and 2 that was a pacified version of him

I'm gonna snip this one in the bud and say Omega's correct: Once the Super Trio finished attacking Solaris' core and defeated it, the eruption of light after the battle is won is Solaris successfully being subdued and reverting to the helpless flame Elise snuffs out. Solaris wouldn't be able to attack them by this point. Blame Sega for it if it doesn't make sense

 

[omegabronic]

bump

 

[Theglassman12]

Finally got some freedom for the time being, I'm gonna save the type 4 acausality stuff for last since it seems to be the most divisive ability to tackle.

In Frontiers Sonic has a danger sense where he can detect enemy attacks. There's also the sneeze but I agree it should be elaborated.

If it's Frontiers Sonic having danger sense then I'd be fine with that, just make sure that's put on the page to avoid confusion.

I don't know what clip is being used, but I do think he breaks out of it easily if the clip is from the Rivals games.

I believe it's sonic rivals, Shadow gets frozen in mid air and falls down after being frozen in a block of ice.

If this is about the Void wisp, it is because it can control a void, yeah. This was discuss plenty of times, actually.

It's the Void Wisp stuff, does it add anything else that implies control over voids or nothingness?

It's Mid-High because Knuckles doesn't see any parts of Chaos after beating him, and afterwards the Egg Carrier explodes and Chaos still regens from that.

Is the whole "knuckles doesn't see his body after the fight" stuff further elaborated on? Cause it there's any evidence of it being reduced to vapor then I'd be fine, otherwise that would at best be "possibly Mid-High" is we're not given enough concrete evidence.

Yes. There was an entire thread about this feat before, and everyone agreed on that. Ifrit does it when it's awakened, and the characters unafected simply resist it.

Is there any clips of the cast being able to resist Ifrit's abilities outright? I'd like to see it so I don't have to question it any further.

It is regeneration. Part of 06 plot is that both Mephiles and Iblis can't be killed, because of the fact they always regenerate after dying. They are supposed to be inmortal. The scene you're showing is Mephiles being defeated by Shadow and returning to his original form, Shadow trying to seal him and failing, and Mephiles regenerating.

The scans I'm referring to with Mephiles' regeneration are guidebook stuff where it says he lacks a corporeal form, and a boss guide on how he merges with shadow's shadow and then pops up, the clip on him regenerating I don't see on his page.

The same about Mephiles. Everytime Iblis is defeated, he returns back to his true form as a small flame (which isn't incorporeal, Silver can stun it with his powers), and then regenerates back to form.

The most that's on Iblis' page is a narration from Silver about him resurrecting, is there any clips to showcase this regen?

Sonic's precog is different, i guess it could be changed to enhanced senses tho

If it's the frontiers scan on him getting danger sense then I'd be fine with having that be the explanation.

he can null the magic attack that merlina trows at him

That still looks too vague, looks more like him just destroying it with raw AP more than power null.

but there is, in sonic adventure 1 the emeralds could fight off and purefy perfect chaos, who was full to the brim with negative energy and malicious thoughts and emotions, i have no idea why that was not put alongside holy manip tho, it should be reajusted to include those

Don't know how that's holy manipulation and not purification.

not very sure of what you are arguing here, for the immeasurable speed part, the argument is that, since solaris attacks at all time periods at once, they dodging it is exactly like dodging an attack that already striked, and in virtue of it being through all of time means that the only way to dodge it is with immeasurable speed

now for the redundant part? are you saying that the space time manip is redundant to be there since the emeralds do that already? sorry, i don't think i got that much, could you explain better what you mean?

The fact the base chaos emeralds have space-time hax makes this redundant for super forms, plus it just looks like immeasurable speed stuff at best.

it is in Void's profile


we didn't substituted the other links to the imgur ones yet

I saw it, at best it looks like corrosion inducement though.

you mash the buttons and then he breaks free of it

Gotcha, then I guess it's fine

are you talking about the resistance or the ability with violet void?

The ability itself.

the moment ifrit awakens people get controled by it, even when it shouldn't even know people are there to be controled in the first place

Any clips of this?

it gives the life energy to all living things, seens verbatim like life manip

Not really if all it does is give energy, that's hardly any different than Goku giving energy.

as long as he has his scabard he won't die, no idea why that isn't there, L on our part tbh

I know that feeling.

both of them are made purely of energy, and any damage done to the bodies they made can be fixed by them easily since they are made of nothing but energy

Is there any elaboration on the regen stuff? Cause I don't think just being energy is enough to get Low godly.

it is a normal power given by all 7 emeralds, a sandbox for chaos energy explaining this kind of stuff better is in the works

got it.

it can't be shapeshifting if it isn't shifting its shape, but looking different depending on who is seeing it

hmm, I guess this is fine then?

Anyways I'll be back to the hellscape that is studying, hopefully I can finish this thread by next week before Fall starts.

 

[Fireld]

both of them are made purely of energy, and any damage done to the bodies they made can be fixed by them easily since they are made of nothing but energy

Iblis is the only energy being there, Mephiles is spiritual

 

[Theuser789]

If it's Frontiers Sonic having danger sense then I'd be fine with that, just make sure that's put on the page to avoid confusion.

There's also Sonic's sneeze from the Classic Era that warns him of danger as well

I believe it's sonic rivals, Shadow gets frozen in mid air and falls down after being frozen in a block of ice.

In that game, you can break out of ice by mashing iirc.

It's the Void Wisp stuff, does it add anything else that implies control over voids or nothingness?

Yes, the description of the power of the Void Wisp and its black hole like abilities. Again, this was discussed extensively before.

Is the whole "knuckles doesn't see his body after the fight" stuff further elaborated on? Cause it there's any evidence of it being reduced to vapor then I'd be fine, otherwise that would at best be "possibly Mid-High" is we're not given enough concrete evidence.

Yes. Knuckles beats Chaos 6, he can't see a single living sign of Chaos, then he grabs the six emeralds that were inside Chaos and leaves the exploding Egg Carrier. We only see Chaos again in the last story.

Is there any clips of the cast being able to resist Ifrit's abilities outright? I'd like to see it so I don't have to question it any further.

The characters who are brainwashed can resist the Ifrit's controls, so the other character that isn't being brainwashed is resisting the Ifrit. In Shadow and Silver's story they fight Metal Sonic 3.0, meaning the Ifrit can't brainwash anyone from that team.

The scans I'm referring to with Mephiles' regeneration are guidebook stuff where it says he lacks a corporeal form, and a boss guide on how he merges with shadow's shadow and then pops up, the clip on him regenerating I don't see on his page.

Mephiles is beaten by Shadow, returns to his original form and after Shadow fails to seal him, he returns back to normal.

The most that's on Iblis' page is a narration from Silver about him resurrecting, is there any clips to showcase this regen?

Silver defeats Iblis here and he returns to his original form upon defeat like Mephiles. With him later coming back to fight Silver again at the end of his story.

 

[omegabronic]

If it's the frontiers scan on him getting danger sense then I'd be fine with having that be the explanation.

Well, frontiers has a stronger version, but in black knight it is shown that his spines tingle in the presense of danger, even before he could see said danger

That still looks too vague, looks more like him just destroying it with raw AP more than power null.

I mean, they just.......vanish on touch, if they broke or exploded ok, but they just vanish

Don't know how that's holy manipulation and not purification.

You said that it didn't have evidence for it to fight off evil, and then i gave you

The fact the base chaos emeralds have space-time hax makes this redundant for super forms

well, it is a unique aplication of it, it is notisable enough to be separated i feel

, plus it just looks like immeasurable speed stuff at best.

Nah, there is no way to be immeasurable, i see the point, them traveling trough all of time at once instantly to hit accross all of it, but problem is that they would need to have blitzed solaris infinitely accross all of time, which can't be since he can keep up with them in the fight

I saw it, at best it looks like corrosion inducement though.

Meh, ask @ShakeResounding he knows better than me on shuffle

Gotcha, then I guess it's fine

perfecto

Any clips of this?

Isn't the clip already in the profiles?

Not really if all it does is give energy, that's hardly any different than Goku giving energy.

yeah. But the word "life" implies that it is life energy

I know that feeling.

Is there any elaboration on the regen stuff? Cause I don't think just being energy is enough to get Low godly.

thing with the two is.....their physical bodies do not matter, they are made of energy and can just reform their bodies no matter the damage, since they are pure energy, think of something similar to goku black from DBH with his mask

got it.

goodo

hmm, I guess this is fine then?

Good

Anyways I'll be back to the hellscape that is studying, hopefully I can finish this thread by next week before Fall starts.

Luck to you, i once again wish