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Some stuff about Tekken tiering, scaling, feats and more

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Well, if Dark649 considered it as canon, it should hopefully be fine.
 
Alrighty. I don't have time to read the FULL thread. But I'll just give my own full take on it. So sorry if some things have already been discussed and covered.

The Tag games have never been confirmed as non-canon. It has always just been assumed because of its side-game or spin-off nature. Flashbacks of it, as well as Tekken Blood Vengeance (which is half-canon, confirmed by the series director. Whatever half-canon means lol.) So I say it should be usable. Especially since Kazuya's devil form in the final battle also resembles a form EXCLUSIVELY used in Blood Vengeance and an early build of Tekken Tag Tournament 2. (Known as Tekken Tag Tournament 2: Prologue.)

As for the DLC characters in Tekken 7, Julia's story calls back to Jaycee (Her wrestling persona which has ONLY existed in Tekken Tag Tournament 2.) These characters, as well as new original ones like Leroy and Fahkumram are likely to appear in Tekken 8, bringing their stories with them. Plus canon DLC isn't unheard of. Asura's Wrath had it, Kingdom Hearts just got some, so it should at least be taken into consideration.

Now as for Tekken Tag 2 specifically... Dead, deceased, or missing characters appearing in it doesn't really contradict anything. Heihachi Mishima appeared and was playable in Tekken 5 despite canonically being in a coma and absent during the events of the game due to his injuries from the JACK explosion in the intro. Heihachi being YOUNG in Tag 2 is even explained in his own ending there. He's just drinking some youth formula or whatever.

Everything that could be seen as contradictory in Tag 2 has some sort of silly little explanation for it. And there are even some bits of actual canon lore and character expansion that began in Tag 2 and expanded to the main canon with Tekken 7. Like Leo and Steve's stories, as well as Julia's like I previously mentioned.

IN CONCLUSION - Tekken Tag Tournament 2 is canon. There are multiple elements that began with it, which then got carried over into the main canon that still acknowledge their origins in Tag 2. Especially with characters and their stories. Also it's never been confirmed as non-canon.

Compare it to like Kingdom Hearts X or something (The browser/mobile game.). Not a numbered title in the series, and doesn't have an actual story. But it IS canon as it reveals and details essential parts of the story and lore which are key and necessary to putting the plot together in Kingdom Hearts 3 and other games.

This is essentially what Tekken Tag Tournament 2 does as well. So story and endings from it should definitely be included as long as it doesn't contradict anything in the main canon. Just like the endings of every Tekken game. For example, Leo and Steve are fine obviously, Jack 6 should be good, Lars, Xiaoyu, Alisa, etc. Lots of these characters have their own little lore bits and character expansions that either stand on their own, or connect to what happens in Tekken 7 WITHOUT contradicting anything before or after. And stuff like True Ogre or Jinpachi showing up even though they are deceased, can simply be shrugged off on their own without dragging the whole game down with them. Just as Heihachi was present and playable in Tekken 5 despite his absence in the story.
 
Heihachi not appearing in Tekken 5 is a plothole or retcon, because his storymode in Tekken 5 very clearly states that he does enter the tournament 1 month after being blasted by Jack 5's, they just changed his story in T6 to say he was in a coma for 1 week and never entered. A retcon is hardly the same as a continuity error.

And how does Tekken Tag's canoncity differ from DBZ and DBS? Dragon Ball Super has a character that only appears in the Z anime, Gregory, but that does not mean Z is canon to Super. And no, not everything that could be seen as contradictory in tag 2 has a silly explanation, far from it.
 
Leopold seems to make sense to me.
 
Doorinmyhouse said:
Heihachi not appearing in Tekken 5 is a plothole or retcon, because his storymode in Tekken 5 very clearly states that he does enter the tournament 1 month after being blasted by Jack 5's, they just changed his story in T6 to say he was in a coma for 1 week and never entered. A retcon is hardly the same as a continuity error.

And how does Tekken Tag's canoncity differ from DBZ and DBS? Dragon Ball Super has a character that only appears in the Z anime, Gregory, but that does not mean Z is canon to Super. And no, not everything that could be seen as contradictory in tag 2 has a silly explanation, far from it.
Click to expand...
In Tekken 7, there wasn't even a tournament. Heihachi announces one, but it's cancelled. Yet many character episodes mention them joining the tournament and partaking in it. So obviously anything that has to do with a tournament should be disregarded since it never canonically happened. But stuff like Nina and Steve meeting up to discuss Steve's creation and whatnot (important plot and lore exposition) in his character episode which has nothing to do with the tournament is totally fine as none of it contradicts the fact the king of iron fist tournament 7 never happened.

That should be applied to Tekken 5. Jin has the canon ending, so any others that contradict it (Like Heihachi's where he interacts with Jinpachi in cutscenes) should be ignored. Meanwhile someone like King who is just goofing off doing whatever should totally be fine with his ending being canon as it has nothing that contradicts Jin's.

Plus Jin was in a coma all of Tekken 7, yet is still playable. No retcons there. That's just how it is. He even shows up in Miguel's ending.

As for DBZ/DBS, The DBZ anime was CONFIRMED non canon. So Gregory in Super is nothing more than just a plot error. Tekken Tag 2 again, has NEVER been confirmed non canon. People just assume it is. Also, none of Super's plot points and lore are locked behind Z's anime, where as many characters stories in Tekken 7 are reliant on what goes down in Tag 2. Steve especially since his is pretty much a direct continuation where he's searching up more about his past.
 
@Leopold

So what should we do here?
 
We should use the endings or scenes from tag games that arent contradicting anything from canon and ignoring those that do
 
Well Yoshimitsu speed feat was calculated, if its accepted it would upgrade the verse speed by quite a lot

Im waiting for another feat for AP to be done now and then changes can be applied to the profiles
 
Not all of them, just a few.
 
You can ask a few discussion moderators to help out here in general. I am very distracted at the moment.
 
Alright, time to take a look at this. Don't know much about this, but I think I can help.

So, if I understand correctly, a robot character destroyed a meteor as big as the one that killed the dinosaurs, and there are characters who are capable of one-shotting this robot. The feat of the meteor killing the dinosaurs is 310 teratons, and the upper limit of the tier is 430 teratons. Are you asking if we can use the one-shotting to bring them to the next tier via scaling?

First, and most importantly, destroying the meteor itself probably warrants a calculation (since destroying the meteor via certain methods would likely result in at least a slightly different joule value than the impact it caused when it killed the dinosaurs).

Second, I don't think we can bring them to higher tiers via scaling here. We use the 7.5x AP advantage as being a "one-shot" here on the wiki; but that is only for Versus Debates. In fiction, depending on how it is depicted, the AP advantage needed to one-shot could easily be anywhere between 1.1x to 500x. As such, I don't think we can simply bump them up a tier on the basis of one-shotting characters who are close to the upper limit. Perhaps "At least Large Country level, likely higher" would be more appropriate?
 
The robot went and gave it a good solid blow and destroyed it, he didnt do it by chain reaction, the character is fodder compared to most, even to a mid and upper tier, top tiers and god tiers are vastly above everyone

Not next tier but like from large country to large country+ given the scaling chain
 
Well, again, the feat of actually destroying it would need to be calced, as I'm not certain if it would yield the same energy as the meteor strike.

Either way though, with this in mind (and assuming the current energy yield is accurate) something along the lines of "At least Large Country level, likely higher" should be perfectly acceptable if the character is fodderised.
 
DarkGrath makes sense to me. Thank you for helping out.
 
BlackDarkness679 said:
Also DMUA said the speed calc should be good, does it needs more input or its good to go?
Click to expand...
Can you link to it here please?
 
Yeah, pretty much what DarkGrath said. Destroying the meteor itself that destroyed the dinosaurs != the impact that the meteor made. So first and foremost you would need a calc for that feat and go from there.

And even if the calc is the same yield it'd be a lot better to give them a rating of "At least High 6-B, likely higher". It's still a difference of over a 100 Teratons so I don't feel comfortable giving them a higher tier.
 
Also yah its still a difference of 100, but even those below top tiers and god tiers can beat the character in question
 
ok, so as i understand it, as long as a game/ series hasnt been confirmed non canon, we can assume it's canon? Ok, noted. @BlackDarkness Yoshimitusu feat is non canon, because Yoshimitsu does not kill Bryan ever, his laser feat cant be used.
 
@antvasima, i thought only stuff that doesnt contradict the story was allowed to be used? In the ending, Yoshimitsu kills Bryan, which obviously contradicts Bryan's story in T7 were he is never mentioned to have been killed.
 
We also used endings like Yoshi outrunning and reacting to the minigun bullets too where pretty much Yoshi does the same, its not out of the real of possibility
 
@Ant

Got the other calc for AP too, this would support Mountain level in case the Jack 6 one in the future gets disregarded ever
 
Ok, so now you're telling me that you use every ending, including endings that contradict the story?? As Leopold said :" story and endings from it should definitely be included as long as it doesn't contradict anything in the main canon."

So basically every ending can be used, including endings that obviously contradict the main canon? Why not use just use every non-canon feat at this point then?
 
I didnt say all of them could be used and once again, a feat of Yoshi were he dodges and outrun minigun bullets was considered for use as well by Dark649 when he was still helping with the verse, even though in that ending he slices Bryan too

And other verses btw like DMC series did too, where it has contradictory things to the canon but are ignored and focus on the those that dont affect anything
 
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