Tekken CRT: Some Issues in Kazuya's Scaling

[Antvasima]

Okay. I think that you seem to make better logical sense in that case, BlackDarkness679, but you still seem to have an ongoing problem with your temper, so you need to work on that. Maybe you can listen to somatic relaxation music via Spotify or somesuch to help you out?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay. I think that you seem to make better logical sense in that case, BlackDarkness679, but you still seem to have an ongoing problem with your temper, so you need to work on that. Maybe you can listen to somatic relaxation music via Spotify or somesuch to help you out?

I don't see how they make more sense, to be honest. I do agree that everything they're saying points to the Devil Gene providing a boost in power, yes. However, they're arguing it's specifically a 10x multiplier off of a statement that's only referring to the strengthening of cellular compounds to 10x the strength of those of a normal human. This isn't quite the same as a statement of a 10x multiplier to Attack Potency, let alone Speed, from a previous form - despite the fact that the multiplier is currently being applied to both. And as our Multipliers page states, we need to have stated multipliers for these statistics, rather than reasoning them from something else

 

[Antvasima]

So it did not refer to a strengthening of 10x compared to the previous already superhuman state?

 

[CloverDragon03]

So it did not refer to a strengthening of 10x compared to the previous already superhuman state?

It did not. The statement is as follows:

"So that's the Devil Gene's true form. The devil gene acts as a catalyst. It strengthens his cellular compounds to ten times that of a normal human."

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You're only making things worse for yourself. And Saman's response is pretty clearly against wiki standards considering we don't allow multipliers to be reasoned, like with stuff like "I doubt it means something other than this." If it's not a direct statement of boosting power/speed, it just doesn't qualify. And a transformation can provide a gap in power by simply being unquantifiably stronger. It doesn't have to be a multiplier. Everything you're saying points to it being stronger, yes, but not by 10x. Simple as.

Same arguments with no basis, also thanks for proving you dont accept the very staff you called simply cuz he disagrees with you

Even now you didnt argue the scene in question contradicting you and also the others times cell mixing in the series results in physical enhacements, especially a young man in the same movie becoming superhuman thanks to genetic experimentation with cells

I reported you because your behavior's a clear rule violation, and it's not the first time you've been reported and faced consequences for that

Ah yes the 1st one where you falsely accused me only and not the OP for numerous instances of lying and going off by vibe scaling instead of concrete, with you coming there past halfway only

And another cuz a fanboy felt offended to be told their character loses to another, also these instances happened long ago and you lie i didnt learn anything? I have been minding my own business till your CRT and you come here victimizing yourself over things like getting offended by being called out ignorant to a fault and you dont show signs of proving it otherwise

 

[Antvasima]

It did not. The statement is as follows:

Hmm. That seems a bit vague, given that a regular human would be far weaker.

Also, BlackDarkness679, please try to calm down. This is not such an extremely important issue.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

So it did not refer to a strengthening of 10x compared to the previous already superhuman state?

He claims a statement for a multiplier isnt a multiplier for the physicals just cuz it says "The devil gene acts like a catalyst. It strengthens his cellular compounds to ten times that of a normal human"

Even though the scene in question where the statement is being made has the character in question stomp the other stats wise

On top of cell mixing in the series being done or were intended to be done to create life forms with physical improvements or to make others superhuman physically

Along boosts/transformations of this power all shown in the series to have big gaps between them

Clover deliberately ignores all of these and just repeats the same thing over and over with nothing new to add up on this, even the only staff of this verse he called out himself disagrees with him, yet keeps persisting

I will just quote my reply from a few moments earlier, Clover beats around the bush on purpose on a matter already explained several times, the series debunks anything he claims

 

[CloverDragon03]

Same arguments with no basis, also thanks for proving you dont accept the very staff you called simply cuz he disagrees with you

I'm not obligated to agree with the staff I call in. I just called him because he's the only staff member that's a supporter for Tekken

Even now you didnt argue the scene in question contradicting you and also the others times cell mixing in the series results in physical enhacements, especially a young man in the same movie becoming superhuman thanks to genetic experimentation with cells

Well yeah, they're not really relevant to this argument. Like... Again, yes, this all absolutely proves that the Devil Gene makes you stronger and we see that in how it affects previously normal humans. But this isn't evidence for a 10x boost to both AP and speed from a previous form, as that's not what's being referred to her.

Ah yes the 1st one where you falsely accused me only and not the OP for numerous instances of lying and going off by vibe scaling instead of concrete, with you coming there past halfway only

And another cuz a fanboy felt offended to be told their character loses to another, also these instances happened long ago and you lie i didnt learn anything? I have been minding my own business till your CRT and you come here victimizing yourself over things like getting offended by being called out ignorant to a fault and you dont show signs of proving it otherwise

I won't comment on the report further after this because it's not relevant to this thread, but your behavior here (and refusal to accept your bans as legitimate) shows you haven't learned, yes. I'm not victimizing myself or anything, I'm just asking you to follow the site rules

I will just quote my reply from a few moments earlier, Clover beats around the bush on purpose on a matter already explained several times, the series debunks anything he claims

Kindly refrain from the baseless accusations, please. A Tekken downgrade should not warrant all this

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Hmm. That seems a bit vague, given that a regular human would be far weaker.

Humans in this series are superhuman, i wouldnt listen to Clover downplaying interpretation

 

[CloverDragon03]

Hmm. That seems a bit vague, given that a regular human would be far weaker.

Also, BlackDarkness679, please try to calm down. This is not such an extremely important issue.

Yeah. The thing is that BlackDarkness's examples all perfectly validate the Devil Gene providing such a boost to the cellular compounds of a normal human. The problem is that they're not relevant to the scene in question here, where there is a power boost, but not one with evidence of being 10x specifically

 

[CloverDragon03]

Humans in this series are superhuman, i wouldnt listen to Clover downplaying interpretation

It specifically mentions a "normal human," which is supported further by the very examples you gave.

And again, quit it with the random accusations just because someone disagrees with you and is downgrading Tekken. You're making things worse for yourself

 

[Antvasima]

Can you please list the evidence for that the boost was 10x for Kazuya compared to his own previous state and not in comparison to weaker humans? Otherwise we know that it would be a boost that likely warrants an "At least..." rating, but probably not much more.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I'm not obligated to agree with the staff I call in. I just called him because he's the only staff member that's a supporter for Tekken

You arent obligated? Then why should i be? Just cuz you got a role?

Well yeah, they're not really relevant to this argument. Like... Again, yes, this all absolutely proves that the Devil Gene makes you stronger and we see that in how it affects previously normal humans. But this isn't evidence for a 10x boost to both AP and speed from a previous form, as that's not what's being referred to her.

Mhm yeah sure....the statement is made during the scene and lore says cells boost your power too, under what assumption should a stated multiplier it gives not mean for physicals given all mentioned? You saying its irrelevant has no meaning

I won't comment on the report further after this because it's not relevant to this thread, but your behavior here (and refusal to accept your bans as legitimate)

Calling you ignorant isnt hostility and neither any of your reports are, you are victimizing yourself in here thats what you do

shows you haven't learned, yes. I'm not victimizing myself or anything, I'm just asking you to follow the site rules

A reason why i should i accept unfair punishments when one from you excluded the other party from this and other was from a salty fanboy whom deleted their comment as well to act like he didnt say anything

Kindly refrain from the baseless accusations, please. A Tekken downgrade should not warrant all this

You tried to downgrade Devil Kazuya without even looking from who he got the rating in the first place, limiting it only from two characters that atm are lower, accusation is justified

It specifically mentions a "normal human," which is supported further by the very examples you gave.

And the characters in the roster are what? Ghosts? Especially Heihachi and Lars which are just regular humans, when Jin and Kazuya loses their power he claims both are just mere humans after, the x10 is literally including these in this, again you beat around the bush

 

[Antvasima]

Clover and BlackDarkness, stop bickering please, and just stick to the facts of this issue instead. Thank you.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Can you please list the evidence for that the boost was 10x for Kazuya compared to his own previous state and not in comparison to weaker humans?

"Weaker humans"

And the characters in the roster are what? Ghosts? Especially Heihachi and Lars which are just regular humans, when Jin and Kazuya loses their power he claims both are just mere humans after, the x10 is literally including these in this, again you beat around the bush

im just gonna quote from earlier

Otherwise we know that it would be a boost that likely warrants an "At least..." rating, but probably not much more.

Ant the statement is made during a scene where Kazuya stomps on Jin badly using a transformation against his base form, other forms or boosts with the devil gene never made turned the scale in power to this degree

And cell mixing in the series proves they provide a boost in stats, which in the past we didnt knew the gap it provides and later the movie tells us how much is it providing, thats a clear cut multiplier

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I have no time to sit and argue back and forth with someone as unreasonable as Clover over this, i have others things to do this day

 

[CloverDragon03]

You arent obligated? Then why should i be? Just cuz you got a role?

You don't have to agree with me

Mhm yeah sure....the statement is made during the scene and lore says cells boost your power too, under what assumption should a stated multiplier it gives not mean for physicals given all mentioned? You saying its irrelevant has no meaning

If the subject matter of the multiplication isn't something direct, like a character's power, then I think it's important to call it into question. Strengthening cellular compounds to 10x those of a normal human is not the same as boosting one's power (much less speed) by 10x. So yes, I think it's irrelevant in this case

It's like if someone was stated to have had their combat skill boosted by ten times. That would mean nothing to me, because "combat skill" doesn't directly translate to AP, speed, of the like.

And the characters in the roster are what? Ghosts? Especially Heihachi and Lars which are just regular humans, when Jin and Kazuya loses their power he claims both are just mere humans after, the x10 is literally including these in this, again you beat around the bush

This is still only referring to cellular compounds, as opposed to directly being 10x stronger. And Heihachi and Lars, despite being human, have clearly superhuman feats as opposed to the actual normal humans in the Tekken verse (like random bystanders)

 

[CloverDragon03]

Clover and BlackDarkness, stop bickering please, and just stick to the facts of this issue instead. Thank you.

I do appreciate your efforts here, I just am not a fan of constantly being viewed as some biased, unreasonable downplayer just because I'm proposing a change that I believe to be accurate

Regardless, my above response will likely be my last one to BlackDarkness, as this is going in circles and I don't want to keep this going ad infinitum

 

[SamanPatou]

And Saman's response is pretty clearly against wiki standards considering we don't allow multipliers to be reasoned, like with stuff like "I doubt it means something other than this." If it's not a direct statement of boosting power/speed, it just doesn't qualify. And a transformation can provide a gap in power by simply being unquantifiably stronger. It doesn't have to be a multiplier. Everything you're saying points to it being stronger, yes, but not by 10x. Simple as.

I know it's not as direct as we would wish, but at the same time I believe it's worthy to be looked up and considered as a possible alternative. The delivery is weird and probably done to sound fancy, and I'd agree if the context was a biological exposition or another scene, but I'd say the fact the statement occurs while Kazuya has just unleashed the Gene to gain the upper hand is an indicator of a power boost.

Anyway, I've found the movie in the original japanese dub, yet I couldn't find a transcription of the dialogues nor subtitles in the same language. The infamous scene occurs at about 1.09.15. Do we have anyone on the forum who understands spoken jp? We might find something useful, as adaptations often lead astray from the original context.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we consider Kazuya 10x stronger than Heihachi and Lars after his power-up then, or consider him 10x stronger than his previous state?

 

[SamanPatou]

The idea here would be that any Devil Gene user becomes 10X stronger than their human form while in that state. In that regard, I believe we'd fall in a case of "reverse multiplier", in which the base form has to be 10X that the transformed one, and since the base for Devils is now 643 petatons, the base forms would be 64.3 petatons (still high 6-A).

 

[CloverDragon03]

The idea here would be that any Devil Gene user becomes 10X stronger than their human form while in that state. In that regard, I believe we'd fall in a case of "reverse multiplier", in which the base form has to be 10X that the transformed one, and since the base for Devils is now 643 petatons, the base forms would be 64.3 petatons (still high 6-A).

Such characters' best feats are only 7-A, so I disagree with this considering how the multiplier isn't even directly an AP multiplier. And again, it's even worse when you realize it's being applied to speed too

 

[BlackDarkness679]

These 7-A characters arent even in actuality 7-A, they are way higher in reality, dont talk on scaling and feats when you dont even know the verse where it stands at

 

[Robo432343]

These 7-A characters arent even in actuality 7-A, they are way higher in reality, dont talk on scaling and feats when you dont even know the verse where it stands at

its currently accepted as 7-A no?

 

[CloverDragon03]

These 7-A characters arent even in actuality 7-A, they are way higher in reality, dont talk on scaling and feats when you dont even know the verse where it stands at

They are currently 7-A

 

[BlackDarkness679]

And your combat skill comparison isnt even remotely a good equivalence, skills of that sort are learned and trained to get them there and they dont require you to be even physically fit

With self defense you can even take someone bigger and physically better then you who doesnt know to fight in like you, Batman also being an example of it in fiction with his rogue gallery, meanwhile genetics are inherited and a kid of two individuals good in something will have the kid know these as well if not better

Lars and Heihachi having superhuman feats has no relevance, many humans in fiction are superhuman or do stuff normally not possible, at the end if the day they are still human, even the soldier troops of the verse who are just humans with military training and all have high level feats

 

[BlackDarkness679]

its currently accepted as 7-A no?

Doesnt mean its accurate, especially to have them scaling from the lowest end of the hierarchy for rating

They are currently 7-A

And i dont care of the stats as of currently, the Mishimas are in no way tier 7s at max in their base, so your claim their best stuff is that high only is flat out wrong

Once again dont even try to argue the scaling and feats of a verse you clearly know nothing about, let slone against a supporter, especially when you tried downgrading devil kazuya without even knowing where he gets high 6-A from

 

[Shadow-Ragna]

I mean as Patou said we have been using alt endings or Arcade Endings for scaling in number of fighting games, though as it allows Devil Jin to have the High 6-A scale due to his feats in Tekken 8.

Plus if we ignore the Arcade ending scaling for Tekken 8, then wouldn't that be odd given it doesn't go stark contrast with the main story? Since in Tekken 8 we didn't see lesser characters beat Devil Jin or characters at his level. Also we have been using Arcade endings for SF or even MK endings.

On the scaling thing I just want to know this, since correct me if wrong:

Is that we know Devil Kazuya beaten the crap out of Devil Jin, thus getting that scaling.

As well as the point where Kazuya absorbed Azazel and became True Devil Kazuya and fought everyone and defeated them. As he gained a massive power boost due to his Devil Gene absorbing Azazel which made him stronger and evolve into his True Devil Kazuya form. We even saw him able to use Azazel's abilities.

Then Angel Jin came (Having all the powers of Jun Kazama after mixing it the Kazama powers with his Devil Gene) and pretty much went an equal battle against True Devil Kazuya and he defeated him in the end and this caused the Devil Gene to burn out from their powers.

With the Devil Gene enhancing it has been stated on how it grants a 10x boost doesn't it? And also soon how Devil Gene boosts people's (Like Jin and Kazuya) power and speed to overpower people?

Again correct me if wrong.