Some stuff about Tekken tiering, scaling, feats and more

[BlackDarkness679]

I will get the AP calc posted on a blog too from the guy who did Yoshimitsu speed feat and get evaluation for that too and will ask him another time for jack 6 feat a calc, he has other calcs to do now so i dont wanna bother him since it did enough with those i requested

So till then i will apply those accepted, use new renders for Heihachi and Kazuya last keys(the current ones are bad in quality) and anything else needed

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

But you and everyone else in this thread told me several times we can only use feats that dont contradict the canon, but now you're telling me we can use anything regardless? If you used a feat previously where Yoshi cut Bryan, that just means that you did something werong ever since back then. Seriously, are you telling me that every ending can be used, including an ending where Ling Xiyaoyu beats up Heihachi? Or Wang kills Azazel? Can we now scale Ling Xiayu and Wang to Tekken Top tiers?

You are not making sense, you are saying we do the same for DMC, but clearly you dont because you ignore the ednings that contradict the canon.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

DMC has a novel which claims a guy that fights Dante its his brother Vergil, yet his brother was actually made a minion for Mundus, yet that part is ignored and anything else from there is used

Also no, cuz Ling and Wang arent comparable to those they beat in there and Ling ending im sure its just for comic relief, there is clear power levels between these instances

Things like Law defeating Jinpachi and the like cant be used at all, also some endings can be half canon only, like Feng ending in 5, he gets the scroll he was looking for as we see in 6, but didnt beat Jinpachi as the endings showed, so half of that is canon, same can be applied too for Yoshimitsu in that case, ignoring the part he slices him and it wasnt me who used that other one for Yoshimitsu, Dark649 was when he made a previous revision and nothing was wrong with that

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Literally the only reason we ignore Ling and Wang's ending is because they contradict the canon story, yet here you are telling me that it's okay for us to ignore the fact that Yoshi's ending also contradict the story? Why cant things like Law defeating Jinpachi be used, but Yoshi killing Bryan can, when both are equally contradictory? Feng ending can be used because it doesnt contradict anything, Feng was stated to have found the scroll in T6, so his ending is confirmed to be canon, nothing in Yoshi's ending in TT2 has been confirmed to be canon. We know for a fight Yoshi didnt kill Bryan so it's impossible for his ending to be canon.


Using Yoshi's ending goes against everything Leopold said previously in this thread, Yoshimutsu's FTL feat is not applied at all to his profiles, i have no clue what you are talking about. If Dark649 did apply all it means he was wrong to do so

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure how we should handle the endings, if they contradict other parts of the story.

You can ask a few of the following staff members to help out with giving input here if you wish:

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, The Calaca, ByAsura, GyroNutz, ShiroyashaGinSa, DarkGrath, The Wright Way, Ricsi-viragosi, Ogbunabali, Moritzva

 

[BlackDarkness679]

There is no need to ask any of them for such a thing, this is just getting again in circles again over things that should be understood but are argued only to for the sake of it

No he wasnt wrong at all, also i gave you an example above of such a case from another series and Street Fighter does the same too for a feat that gives a speed feat for certain characters despite having a part there that to you wouldnt be aplicable

That FTL feat is nothing wrong to be used, also told you why those like Law or Wang cant

Leopold used endings like that Yoshi one btw in his videos for fights when he was doing them, so that point you quote from him is irrelevant

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it should probably be fine then.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

How is that quote irrelevant? Since when does Street Fighter do this? So what you are saying is that any feat from any ending regardless of the circumstances, can be applied? Throughout this thread you have been telling me that it's okay to use feats from TTT even if the game was non canon, as long as the ending arent contradicting anything, but now you're telling me that you can use any feat regardless if they contradict the canon story? We arent going in circles, YOU are going completely against everything you previously said in this thread, as well as the arguments other people brought up for TTT's feats.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

what was all that about Tekken Tag being canon because some stuff in T7 was only ever brought up in TTT1 + 2, when you just resort to using endings that straight up go completely against the canon story anyway? why not use feats from Street Fighter X Tekken as well

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Check out Street Fighter page for Bison, he gets MHS+ from a calc in an ending which to your opinion shouldnt be used if we follow your logic, nobody had anything against it and its accepted

I gave the example with DMC too, which once again by your opinion shouldnt be used cuz you say so

Earlier you didnt even were in agreement for tag games to be counted at all, now all of a sudden after a long time passed since then you are now cool with it, after how many comments to be told at you

You didnt help with anything here, you just go in circles and argue things that shouldnt be argued in the first place and caused only problems, if you have something that actually contributes to the series in any way then thats appreciated, if not then dont

SF X Tekken is a non canon crossover stop

 

[Antvasima]

@Doorinmyhouse

Please drop this subject, as it has been argued to death already, and it is preventing us from getting anything constructive done here.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Antvasima what the norm has been for years in VSBW is to use any Ending in Tekken as long as they dont contradict the canon story.

This is even what Leopold and many other has said repeatedly in this thread and in other threads, , heck YOU even agreed with him when he said this exact thing not 2 weeks ago , so no I'm not going to drop anything. I'm not arguing for something new, how is repeating something that has already been established for years arguing something to death exactly????


@BlackDarkness679 Do you have any proof the game is non canon, was it confirmed? Just like with TTT , even if it has many contradicting plot holes, as long as the game hasnt been confirmed non canon, we cant claim that it is. What happens in Bison's ending that contradicts the canon story of Street Fighter?

Why does it matter if I agree with counting Tag games as canon after a long time, am I supposed to never change my opinion no matter what? I find it extremely weird that you kept arguing to use any feat for TTT as long as they dont contradict the canon story, only to do a complete 360 and use endings that contradict the canon story anyway.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

That ending with the feat for Bison has Chun Li defeating him, which she never did or even Dhalsim destroying a satellite with power to nuke a city in his ending after beating Bison too, but we ignore these things and focus on the feats they have there, same can be done with Yoshi and which was done before with his other feat where he outruns bullets

You are just going in circles with this, as i said if you cant help and you just complain over every thing then please drop it

I could have used Jinpachi killing Heihachi or Combot wrecking the Mishimas endings by your last claim in your comment, yet i didnt, the only things i used from tag 2 was just 2 feats, one of which you make a way too big deal of it

SF x T is a crossover, no crossover is canon unless stated to be so or acknowledged as such like how Mortal kombat vs DC game is in injustice and MK games are or Marvel and DC with theirs, SF x T aint one, which is why Akuma in tekken is treated as a different character compared to his original

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Ok, so what im getting from this is that every ending, no matter how contradicting it is, can be used, if it is from a canon game? Then what was the point of people, like Leopold and yourself, saying that a feat can be used only if it doesnt contradict the canon story?

I still dont get why Wang's ending's cant be used, so what if it contradicts the story of Tekken 6 and Tekken 7, so does Yoshimitsu's but that can be used apparantly? What are the standards for when an ending can and cant be used?

why arent crossovers considered canon, since stuff like dozens of continuity errors have 0 relavance as to whether a spin-off game is canon ?

 

[LeopoldTheBrave]

@Doorinmyhouse

Please drop this subject, as it has been argued to death already, and it is preventing us from getting anything constructive done here.

I'll step in here real quick. I PERSONALLY do not believe the Yoshimitsu ending should be counted. Because he kills Brian in it, which contradicts canon. I know some other verses are wonky and allow it somehow, but two wrongs don't make a right.

This Jack 6 feat however, should absolutely be considered. Although he dies, this does NOT contradict canon as Jack models are mass-produced. This could literally be any Jack 6 model out there. They are fodder and pretty much the base of what most characters in the verse can scale to. Characters like the Mishima's can one-shot them, while lesser characters like King are still capable of defeating them in battle. So Jack 6 shattering a meteor 6 miles in diameter here should 100% be looked into for the rest of the cast.

Tekken Tag Tournament 2 - 'Jack-6 Ending' TRUE-HD QUALITY-1

 

[LeopoldTheBrave]

As for a SPEED feat. If you're really looking for something FTL. Tekken 2 has something for you. While it's quite odd, not deaths or plot contradicting events occur here.

Heihachi here outpaces the already sub-relativistic Devil Beam by a significant amount with his own movement speed. This should definitely yield a substantial speed buff if it's looked into.

Tekken 2 Kazuya Ending-0

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Doubtful you can get FTL from sub rel lasers

Also if Tekken cant use that feat, other verses then should be called out on them, as this is just not fair others allow it while others not

 

[BlackDarkness679]

why arent crossovers considered canon, since stuff like dozens of continuity errors have 0 relavance as to whether a spin-off game is canon ?

Because crossovers are inconsistent, unless you wanna think Luffy from One Piece is in the same league as Goku since they had a crossover episode and is just a special episode, crossovers are never canon

You just bring up irrelevant stuff and dont contribute with anything

 

[Antvasima]

Crossovers should almost never be used, yes.

Anyway, since we do not seem to get anywhere here, I would appreciate if Leopold or BlackDarkness could write a summary of what we need to evaluate here right now, and then ask some of the following staff members to comment here:

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, The Calaca, ByAsura, GyroNutz, ShiroyashaGinSa, DarkGrath, The Wright Way, Ricsi-viragosi, Ogbunabali, Moritzva

 

[BlackDarkness679]

At the moment the only issue is that the feat cant be used cuz it has a part thats contradictory, yet other franchises like Street Fighter and Devil May Cry does the same and perhaps more others probably and no one said anything about them in theur respective threads

So either those franchises exclude these things as well or the speed calc is accepted, its unfair if other verses can count certain things while others not, plus that would feel like favoritism if we gonna just treat similar cases entirely different instead of the same

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it depends on if the ending is intended to be consistent with their regular power levels.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@BlackDarkness679


how can you say I bring up irrelevant stuff or dont contribute to anything, or keep going in circles, when all I'm doing is bring up stuff that you and everyone else keep telling me??? Sorry If I care about consistency, If other series like DMC or SF uses contradicting feats, then that simply means that they shouldnt. however decided to do that was wrong to do so. And you have still to explain why we can ignore some feats that completely contradict the story, but not others.

@ LeopoldTheBrave

Pretty sure using the speed of his laser in T7 to calc the speed of Heihachi in T2 is calc stacking, which is not allowed.

@Antvasima I agree with Leopold that feats like Jack-6's ending should be used, because it contradicts nothing, but disagree that Yoshimitusu's feat should be used because he kills Bryan in it which he never does in the canon story.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Excuse me but what you done here ever since you replied the first time in the thread @doorinmyhouse? Ever since you came up you spoke rudely and called names and just filled the thread with long texts on how you are against things which were adressed before or shouldnt have been argued at all

Ever since Dark649 became inactive in October i tried to take care of the verse and so on as no one else was here to do, not once you helped with anything here, only disagreements and what it bugs you for X or Y thing

Mods for these other verses could have easily rejected them since they participate in the threads too, Dark also used another feat from Yoshimitsu in a similar case, also some tag 1 and tag 2 things way before this thread, so that feat isnt a big deal to use, if you have issues go on and point out to these other verses as well this thing they do, i wont gonna reject that feat while others dont and they get ratings out of it, either all get the same thing or not at all

And one last thing, endings from Ling beating Heihachi or Wang beating Azazel are inconsistent power wise, Ling and Wang dont compare to any character to imply these endings holds any weight, Yoshimitsu is depicted to be comparable to Bryan more then once and doesnt involve anything about beating a boss character or top tier like in those you gave examples

@antvasima

The other speed feat for the verse from which they get the rating they got now scales back to the characters early on in the series, it should be consistent since this FTL one happens waaaaay later in the series and characters by then are more powerful then at that time

 

[BlackDarkness679]

TL;DR

The FTL feat would be consistent and the part that was brought up as an issue for it can be ignored easily as other franchises done with theirs

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

`@BlackDarkness679 why do you want to do this again? you were the one who started insulting me out of nowhere, because I dont have a profile pic, stop being delusional already and let it go.

and im not obliged to help out with anything here, why do yout think you are so entitled? you should really stop feeling personally attacked because I happen to disagree with something you said. it has become beyond annoying at this point

You're wrong about another thing,Ogre , Yoshimitsu , Brya , Paul etc get their speed scaled to Kazuya's laser's speed in T7, they dont get scaled from a feat early on in the series. Their speed is listed as sub-relativistsic, from this feat that happes in T7, which is clearly not early on in the series, the feat happens after Yoshi's feat in TT2.

In fact, Yoshimitsu's FTL feat is 6943 times faster than the fastest speed feat in T7 from a top tier ( Devil Kazuya), so if anything, shouldnt the feat be an outlier??? Considering Yoshimitsu is mid tier, and nothing in the series comes anywhere close to that.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

1) you started with this i didnt said anything offensive till you began with the cursing but whatever

2)i didnt say you are obliged to help, yet you arguing to death things that shouldnt have been in the first place isnt needed either for your info, its wasting time in which more things could have been done instead of back and forth debating, its tiring to argue with a troublemaker that only responses are against everything without listening

3)you are the only one wrong here, Heihachi dodges a devil laser before Tekken 1 against Kazumi when he was out of breath and characters like Paul was comparable to him back then, else he and others would have been MHS+ at best, dont try to correct me when i saw the story of T7, its early in the series as that battle happens before Tekken 1 chronologically

4)Yoshimitsu is an upper tier, which is below top tier, not mid tier also its not outlierish at all, stop trying to argue something when you dont know the deal with it

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You are the only person here which keeps preventing anything to be done or discussed over irrelevant and repeated things, cause troubles over whats bothering you

Ant already told you to drop it with your arguing in circles here especially if there is nothing relevant or helpful in anyway for the series

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that Doorinmyhouse seems to keep this thread from ever going anywhere. It is probably best if he stops responding here.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

1) stop being in delusional and stop playing the victim already

2) yes im supposed to accept any wank argument you make at face value of course, my bad.

3rd)

How does Kazumi's pre-T1 laser scale to T7 sub-relativistic Kazuya, when Kazuya and everyone else got much much faster after T1, according to you?? Kazumi isnt the one with the sub-relativistic speed feat, it's T7 Kazuya, so how would pre T1 Kazumi scale to T7 Kazuya who you are saying is much faster than he was back in T1 when he beat Heihachi? it makes no sense to scale Kazumi to T7 Kazuya and then say every T7 character including Kazuya are way faster than Heihachi who defeated Kazumi pre T1. That's circular reasoning.

Either you are saying that Kazumi is as fast T7 Kazuya, meaning her laser is FTL, or you are saying she is slower than Kazuya, meaning you cant scale her to Kazuya.

and @antvasima Yes Im the only one going in circles here and im the only one arguing against everything BlackDarkness is saying , so I will just let Leopold say literally the exact same thing Im currently arguing... https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3729859#215

Both of your reading comprehension are subpar, im literally just repeating what BlackDarkness and Leopold told me several times throughout this thread, but sure you wont hear from me again in this thread, since you are obviously incapable of comprehending BlackDarkness and Leopold's several comments from earlier in this thread.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

1) im not playing anything, you came here in the first place with an agressive attitude and caused ruckus along lying as well like that i insulted someone, only so you could put in a bad light and have me blocked

2) "wank" if i wished to wank as you claim i could have easily put the verse with way different ratings and more, all you do is lowball and just go with your vendetta hate on me

3)all devil gene users have the same speed for the laser, something that Dark649 also said, there aint a reason to assume they have different speeds and just fir the laser attack speed, not the characters themselves and its not circular scaling, you clearly dont know whats the deal here, this was a thing established by a someone that kmows about the series unlike you

4) already told you a million times the deal, im not gonna explain it for you again just so you can simply ignore it and have it to repeat again, also the only one with the comprehension issues is you, where long comments had to be written for time and time again

As Ant said, stop responding here, you do not help with anything and just fill the thread with nothing other then arguments going in circles

 

[Antvasima]

Let's move on with the discussion please. He seems to have left now.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Well anyway, there is an AP calc i got too now its discussed by the calcer of it and another one whether the final result is good or not

The tag 2 Jack 6 one is one that would need a calc too since we cant use the value on the wiki of the meteor for reference, so thats all so far

I will update the speed and apply other changes needed till we get everything else done

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

So, we accept a feat from a non-canon ending now to justify this FTL BS? This ending contradicts heavily on the canon story, and thus should be null and void.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

We already had this discussion already, dont start it as well like the other guy....

 

[JohnHendrix212]

And what was the consensus exactly, why this particular non-canon feat was used? Not gonna browse the thread, looks like it's a whole lot of reading.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Other verses like DMC and Street Fighter for example are in a similar case, using something that has a thing that makes it contradictory, yet those parts are ignored and its focused only at the other stuff instead, no one has said anything about those two even though they are in a similar scenario with some of their stuff, so why Tekken should be the exception to this?

Also Dark649 which was responsible for the verse used a different feat that would fall under the same thing, didnt see anyone complain for that one either

And in case you wanna argue its from Tag 2, it is accepted as part of canon, since the story mode of Tekken 7 acknowledges it to be part of it along elements from there being carried over as well fo a character

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am not certain either. Perhaps you could write a summary of the previous discussion and then ask a few of the staff members below to give input here?

Promestei, SomebodyData, The real cal howard, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Soldier Blue, Monarch Laciel, Saikou The Lewd King, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM sama, Wokista, Ultima Reality, Mr. Bambu, Gemmysaur, Theglassman12, Qawsedf234, Crabwhale, The Calaca, ByAsura, GyroNutz, ShiroyashaGinSa, DarkGrath, The Wright Way, Ricsi-viragosi, Ogbunabali, Moritzva

 

[GrathOfLux]

I'm a bit too busy to evaluate everything here right at this moment, but I'll take a look through when I can.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.