Small Mandrakk additions

[Deagonx]

As Grant says “all contradictions are resolved into unity” implying that once you get into the Overvoid, CAS and Mandrakk cannot exist.

I don't agree that it implies that at all. It never says they cannot exist there.

Once again, you’re implying that the Overvoid can be a transdual realm while the beings who exist on the level of the realm don’t have to be transdual, which doesn’t make any sense. You can’t exist somewhere that transcends duality while being within duality. Thats like saying one can exist on the moon while being also on the Earth.

You're just repeating yourself. I already addressed why this reasoning is false. Duality is not an object with a fixed location in space and time, it is an attribute. The Overvoid is not red, but that does not mean it "transcends redness" and that nothing red can exist within it. There is no logical reason why you must have X attribute to be in a realm with X attribute, and we have numerous counter examples.

Do you have a counter argument of any kind, or are you just going to repeat yourself that it "doesn't make sense?"

Maybe not to enter it, but to properly exist on a 5-D level you need to be higher dimensional. And for that reason one case of two beings accessing magic from a higher dimensional power to reach a higher dimension doesn’t matter because they couldn’t even properly exist in that higher dimension in the first place.

They were not higher-dimensional, we know this because they were perceived to be flat in that dimension and had no power there. Your claim is that they "accessed magic from a higher-dimensional power" is unfounded and still does not address the fundamental flaw in your approach. Regardless of what power transported them there, the fact remains that they existed there without being higher dimensional. Which means your analogy is false.

So how some random writers from DC treat higher dimensions is irrelevant. Also I’m not arguing being in a realm with a quality gives you that quality. I’m arguing that a place existing beyond something requires one to go beyond that thing to properly exist there.

Once again, you have been disproven with multiple counter-examples which prove your assertion is not a logical necessity. You don't need to be higher-dimensional to go to a higher-dimensional realm. You calling them "random writers" does not change that you've been debunked on that subject.

So you've moved the goalposts to this notion of being "beyond" something. Transduality is a lack of duality. The Overvoid, itself, is non-dual. Multiple things inside of the Overvoid are dual. Going to the Overvoid without being transdual doesn't change the fact that the Overvoid itself is transdual.

 

[Xearsay]

I don't agree that it implies that at all. It never says they cannot exist there.

I don’t care if you don’t agree. Grant directly states that Mandrakk and CAS are a duality and that beyond the crumbling ledge, in the Overvoid all contradictions are resolved into unity. Implying that they cannot exist in the Overvoid which is contradicted by the actual material.

You're just repeating yourself. I already addressed why this reasoning is false. Duality is not an object with a fixed location in space and time, it is an attribute. The Overvoid is not red, but that does not mean it "transcends redness" and that nothing red can exist within it. There is no logical reason why you must have X attribute to be in a realm with X attribute, and we have numerous counter examples.

Do you have a counter argument of any kind, or are you just going to repeat yourself that it "doesn't make sense?"

I never said transduality was an object with a fixed location. Transduality is a state of being. You must have X state of being to exist in X state of being because without having X state of being you could never exist in X state of being. You must have a transdual state of being to exist in a transdual state of being because without having a transdual state of being you could never exist in a transdual state of being.

They were not higher-dimensional, we know this because they were perceived to be flat in that dimension and had no power there. Your claim is that they "accessed magic from a higher-dimensional power" is unfounded and still does not address the fundamental flaw in your approach. Regardless of what power transported them there, the fact remains that they existed there without being higher dimensional. Which means your analogy is false.

I never said they were higher dimensional when they were in the fifth dimension. I said they didn’t properly exist in the fifth dimension at all. Meaning it doesn’t even count.

Once again, you have been disproven with multiple counter-examples which prove your assertion is not a logical necessity. You don't need to be higher-dimensional to go to a higher-dimensional realm. You calling them "random writers" does not change that you've been debunked on that subject.

So you've moved the goalposts to this notion of being "beyond" something. Transduality is a lack of duality. The Overvoid, itself, is non-dual. Multiple things inside of the Overvoid are dual. Going to the Overvoid without being transdual doesn't change the fact that the Overvoid itself is transdual.

How can you disprove me on something I never said? I never claimed that in the DCU one needs to be higher dimensional to reach a higher dimension.

I didn’t move the goal post with my last comment. I literally just copied what I said from a couple comments ago. And as I said before, Transduality is a state. The Overvoid is a realm that has a transdual state. Existing inside of the Overvoid while simultaneously not being transdual would mean the Overvoid isn’t actually transdual.

 

[Deagonx]

Implying that they cannot exist in the Overvoid which is contradicted by the actual material.

I don't care that you think this is implied. He never said it.

I never said transduality was an object with a fixed location. Transduality is a state of being. You must have X state of being to exist in X state of being because without having X state of being you could never exist in X state of being.

Provably false, as in the instance of being in the Fifth Dimension and other higher-dimensional states.

Beings in a certain realm do not assume all of the attributes of that realm. We have numerous counter-examples.

I never said they were higher dimensional when they were in the fifth dimension. I said they didn’t properly exist in the fifth dimension at all. Meaning it doesn’t even count.

You're just making up nonsense post-hoc to deny the clear evidence in front of your face that Shazam and GL went to the Fifth Dimension without being 5-D. Same with Superman, and the human Metron brought through various dimensions.

And as I said before, Transduality is a state. The Overvoid is a realm that has a transdual state. Existing inside of the Overvoid while simultaneously not being transdual would mean the Overvoid isn’t actually transdual.

Except the Multiverse is not transdual and exists inside of Overvoid.

Also, your reasoning for why that would be true is invalid and has been objectively proven wrong with evidence from the comics. The state of the Overvoid does not apply to everything within it. We can also disprove this with other qualities about the Overvoid. The Overvoid is infinite and eternal, but not everything within it is infinite and eternal. The Overvoid is a white light, but not everything in it is.

It's just fallacious to assume that being in a realm with X attribute means you must have X attribute and the counter-examples are endless. You haven't even coherently explained why that would be the case aside from poor disproven analogies, and in the first place you do not have any evidence for it, and you have a direct author statement contradicting your claim.

 

[Xearsay]

I don't care that you think this is implied. He never said it.

Yes he did. Grant directly states that Mandrakk and CAS are a duality and that beyond the crumbling ledge, in the Overvoid all contradictions are resolved into unity. Implying that they cannot exist in the Overvoid which is contradicted by the actual material.

Provably false, as in the instance of being in the Fifth Dimension and other higher-dimensional states.

Beings in a certain realm do not assume all of the attributes of that realm. We have numerous counter-examples.

That’s not my argument. I argued that a place existing beyond something requires one to go beyond that thing to properly exist there. The Overvoid as a realm exist in a state beyond duality and therefore requires one to also go beyond duality to reach it.

You're just making up nonsense post-hoc to deny the clear evidence in front of your face that Shazam and GL went to the Fifth Dimension without being 5-D. Same with Superman, and the human Metron brought through various dimensions.

It’s not nonsense. Captain Marvel and Kyle Rayner still had to go beyond their 3D reality to reach the fifth dimension. Which is similar to how one would need to go beyond the state of duality to reach the transdual realm of the Overvoid. The main difference is that they couldn’t properly exist in the fifth dimension. Meanwhile CAS and Mandrakk were properly able to exist in the Overvoid.

Except the Multiverse is not transdual and exists inside of Overvoid.

Also, your reasoning for why that would be true is invalid and has been objectively proven wrong with evidence from the comics. The state of the Overvoid does not apply to everything within it. We can also disprove this with other qualities about the Overvoid. The Overvoid is infinite and eternal, but not everything within it is infinite and eternal. The Overvoid is a white light, but not everything in it is.

It's just fallacious to assume that being in a realm with X attribute means you must have X attribute and the counter-examples are endless. You haven't even coherently explained why that would be the case aside from poor disproven analogies, and in the first place you do not have any evidence for it, and you have a direct author statement contradicting your claim.

I already addressed this, yes the Multiverse grows inside the Overvoid but it also literally separated from the Overvoid by the Source Wall.

Also again you’re completely altering what I’ve said. I never argued being in a realm with X attribute gives you X. I argued that a place existing beyond something requires one to also go beyond that thing to reach it. The Overvoid existing beyond the state of duality means one would have to go beyond duality to reach it.

 

[Deagonx]

Implying that they cannot exist in the Overvoid which is contradicted by the actual material.

If he implied it, then by definition he didn't say it. I don't care that you interpreted it that way.

That’s not my argument. I argued that a place existing beyond something requires one to go beyond that thing to properly exist there. The Overvoid as a realm exist in a state beyond duality and therefore requires one to also go beyond duality to reach it.

This is just wordplay parading as an argument. The overvoid does not "transcend" duality. It is non dual. The Overvoid is not red. Does it transcend redness? Can red things exist inside the Overvoid or must they transcend the color red?

It's a ridiculous statement. There's no evidence you must first "transcend duality" to reach the Overvoid.

Captain Marvel and Kyle Rayner still had to go beyond their 3D reality to reach the fifth dimension. Which is similar to how one would need to go beyond the state of duality to reach the transdual realm of the Overvoid.

No, it isn't comparable at all. Duality is not a thing that the Overvoid exists "outside of." It is an attribute that Overvoid lacks.

yes the Multiverse grows inside the Overvoid but it also literally separated from the Overvoid by the Source Wall.

You must've missed the part where the Source Wall was destroyed.

I never argued being in a realm with X attribute gives you X. I argued that a place existing beyond something requires one to also go beyond that thing to reach it. The Overvoid existing beyond the state of duality means one would have to go beyond duality to reach it.

Semantic nonsense. You cannot be "beyond" an adjective. You can only lack an adjective. Shazam and GL had to go "beyond" their dimension because they were traveling to a different dimension. They were not "transcending 3-dimensionality" or some such nonsense. They were just in a different location.

Duality is not a thing or a place to be transcended. You don't need to "leave duality" in order to go somewhere that doesn't have it.

You have no evidence, your own evidence says you're wrong, your analogy was proven wrong, and all you have left is an illogical conception of being "beyond" duality.

 

[Xearsay]

If he implied it, then by definition he didn't say it. I don't care that you interpreted it that way.

Whether Grant implied it or directly said doesn’t matter, as what’s being expressed remains the same. Grant telling us that CAS and Mandrakk are a duality and that dualities cannot exist beyond the crumbling ledge in the Monitor Sphere is a complete contradiction to what’s expressed in the material.

This is just wordplay parading as an argument. The overvoid does not "transcend" duality. It is non dual. The Overvoid is not red. Does it transcend redness? Can red things exist inside the Overvoid or must they transcend the color red?

It's a ridiculous statement. There's no evidence you must first "transcend duality" to reach the Overvoid.

From reading your entire comment, you seem to have a problem with the idea of something being transdual or beyond duality. And I’m here to tell you right now, I don’t care. Take it up with the people who added transudality to the site. Whether something can be transdual or not, is not the point of this thread. Trying to argue about this further would be derailing.

No, it isn't comparable at all. Duality is not a thing that the Overvoid exists "outside of." It is an attribute that Overvoid lacks.

The sites standards say something can exist beyond duality. If you have a problem with it, go argue with the people who added it.

You must've missed the part where the Source Wall was destroyed.

No I just didn’t care about it. Even if we ignore the Source Wall the Multiverse is still inside of the flaw which exist inside of some container, separating it from the Void.

Semantic nonsense. You cannot be "beyond" an adjective. You can only lack an adjective. Shazam and GL had to go "beyond" their dimension because they were traveling to a different dimension. They were not "transcending 3-dimensionality" or some such nonsense. They were just in a different location.

Duality is not a thing or a place to be transcended. You don't need to "leave duality" in order to go somewhere that doesn't have it.

You have no evidence, your own evidence says you're wrong, your analogy was proven wrong, and all you have left is an illogical conception of being "beyond" duality.

As I’ve already said, on this site transduality is a thing. If you have a problem with it, go argue with the people who added it to the site in the first place. Don’t come into my thread trying to derail it into some revision on whether transudality should be a thing or not. Go make your own.

 

[Deagonx]

Grant telling us that CAS and Mandrakk are a duality and that dualities cannot exist beyond

Good thing he never actually said any of that.

Take it up with the people who added transudality to the site.

Your take on the matter has nothing to do with site standards.

which exist inside of some container, separating it from the Void

No it doesn't. When the Source Wall broke the Green Lanterns could literally go right to the edge and blocked the void with their rings.

As I’ve already said, on this site transduality is a thing

You've shown no evidence that any of your claims are true. This isn't about site standards, this is about you making a claim without any evidence.

 

[Xearsay]

Good thing he never actually said any of that.

Why are you lying? First Grant directly equates Superman and Mandrakk with a duality.

Morrison - “Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others.”

And then he tells us beyond Monitor world, in the Overvoid, all contradictions are resolved to unity. Meaning that dualities cannot exist there.

Morrison - “Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity.”

Your take on the matter has nothing to do with site standards

It has everything to do with site standards because I’m simply going off of what’s been already accepted on the site. Your the one who’s trying to start some argument about whether it’s possible to even go beyond or transcend duality, which has nothing to do with my thread. So like I said, stop derailing my thread or else I’m going to report you.

No it doesn't. When the Source Wall broke the Green Lanterns could literally go right to the edge and blocked the void with their rings.

Ok but that’s from some other writers cosmology. The purpose of my thread is to add abilities to CAS and Mandrakk based off how they’re presented in Grant Morrison’s cosmology. How some random other writers treat the Overvoid is not of my concern.

You've shown no evidence that any of your claims are true. This isn't about site standards, this is about you making a claim without any evidence.

Yes it is about site standards because you’re the one arguing that “duality is not a thing or place to be transcended” which goes against what’s already been accepted on the site. And I’m not about to prove to you whether it’s possible to go beyond because that’s not the purpose of my thread. As I said before if you continue to derail I will report you.

 

[Deagonx]

all contradictions are resolved to unity. Meaning that dualities cannot exist there.

This is an assumption.

Ok but that’s from some other writers cosmology

If you are asserting a logical necessity than any counter-example is sufficient, regardless of writer. If you are not asserting a logical necessity, then you need to prove that something is true in Morrison's cosmology with in-comic evidence.

Your the one who’s trying to start some argument about whether it’s possible to even go beyond or transcend duality

No, I am not, you have fundamentally misunderstood the problem with your argument.

Saying that the Overvoid is "beyond" duality does not change the flaw in your argument -- that you do not need to share the characteristics of a realm to enter it. The Fifth Dimension is "beyond" the 3-D world, because it is literally outside of it, but you do not need to be 5-D to enter it. The fact that Overvoid itself is transdual does not mean you must "transcend duality" to enter it.

The Overvoid is "transdual" the way that the Fifth Dimension is "5-D." It is not "outside Duality" the way the Fifth Dimension is "outside the 3-D world." You have to leave the 3-D world to enter the Fifth Dimension, because the 3-D world is a location. You do not need to "transcend three-dimensionality" as a being to enter the Fifth Dimension. You do not need to "transcend duality" to enter the transdual Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

This is an assumption.

No it’s not, because if dualities could exist in the Overvoid they wouldn’t become resolved into unity at the Overvoid.

If you are asserting a logical necessity than any counter-example is sufficient, regardless of writer. If you are not asserting a logical necessity, then you need to prove that something is true in Morrison's cosmology with in-comic evidence.

This is wrong because I’ve not once in this thread expressed anything being a “logical necessity” across all writer cosmologies. I’ve always narrowed this down to just Grants cosmology.

No, I am not, you have fundamentally misunderstood the problem with your argument.

Saying that the Overvoid is "beyond" duality does not change the flaw in your argument -- that you do not need to share the characteristics of a realm to enter it. The Fifth Dimension is "beyond" the 3-D world, because it is literally outside of it, but you do not need to be 5-D to enter it. The fact that Overvoid itself is transdual does not mean you must "transcend duality" to enter it.

The Overvoid is "transdual" the way that the Fifth Dimension is "5-D." It is not "outside Duality" the way the Fifth Dimension is "outside the 3-D world." You have to leave the 3-D world to enter the Fifth Dimension, because the 3-D world is a location. You do not need to "transcend three-dimensionality" as a being to enter the Fifth Dimension. You do not need to "transcend duality" to enter the transdual Overvoid.

You’re backpedaling. You literally stated that duality is not something that can be transcended.

Deagonx - “duality is not a thing or place to be transcended.”

And now you’re acting like you never said this while trying to rebound to a talking point you made prior. So I’ll just repeat my previous response to this.

I never argued being in a realm with X attribute gives you X. I argued that a place existing beyond something requires one to also go beyond that thing to exist there. The Overvoid existing beyond the state of duality means one would have to go beyond the state of duality to exist there.

 

[Deagonx]

This is wrong because I’ve not once in this thread expressed anything being a “logical necessity” or across all writer cosmologies. I’ve always narrowed this down to just Grants cosmology.

Yes, you did

you keep saying “I haven’t provided evidence” when the conclusion that CAS and Mandrakk are transdual, is something that logically follows from them being able to exist in a transdual realm.

There’s literally no way CAS and Mandrakk could exist in the transdual realm of the Overvoid without being transdual themselves.

Once again, you’re implying that the Overvoid can be a transdual realm while the beings who exist on the level of the realm don’t have to be transdual, which doesn’t make any sense.

You've repeatedly asserted that the basis for your claim is that for someone to be in a transdual realm they must be transdual. That is an assertion of logical necessity. If it were a matter of Grant's specific cosmology, then you need to provide evidence that it's true in Grant's cosmology.

I argued that a place existing beyond something requires one to also go beyond that thing to exist there. The Overvoid existing beyond the state of duality means one would have to go beyond the state of duality to exist there.

The Overvoid is "transdual" the way that the Fifth Dimension is "5-D." It is not "outside Duality" the way the Fifth Dimension is "outside the 3-D world." You have to leave the 3-D world to enter the Fifth Dimension, because the 3-D world is a location. You do not need to "transcend three-dimensionality" as a being to enter the Fifth Dimension. You do not need to "transcend duality" to enter the transdual Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

You've repeatedly asserted that the basis for your claim is that for someone to be in a transdual realm they must be transdual. That is an assertion of logical necessity. If it were a matter of Grant's specific cosmology, then you need to provide evidence that it's true in Grant's cosmology.

That wasn’t what this aspect of our discussion was about. You tried to counter my claim about how the Multiverse as it exist within Grant Morrison’s cosmology was treated as being within a container by bringing up something from Scott Snyder’s cosmology. Which doesn’t prove anything because I was never speaking in context of all writer cosmologies, rather I was speaking specifically on Grants.

The Overvoid is "transdual" the way that the Fifth Dimension is "5-D." It is not "outside Duality" the way the Fifth Dimension is "outside the 3-D world." You have to leave the 3-D world to enter the Fifth Dimension, because the 3-D world is a location. You do not need to "transcend three-dimensionality" as a being to enter the Fifth Dimension. You do not need to "transcend duality" to enter the transdual Overvoid.

Spamming this nonsense reply over again isn’t gonna make what your saying sound any better. One cannot properly and physically exist in 5 dimensions while also existing in 3 dimensions. That doesn’t make any sense and is a complete contradiction. Similar to duality and transduality, one cannot exist in a state of duality while also existing in a state outside the dual system. It doesn’t make any sense. Your only evidence for what you’re talking about is something that doesn’t support what you’re saying because Kyle Rayner and Captain Marvel didn’t physically and properly existing in the fifth dimension. They were described as having less substance than shadows on the wall and were said to lack dimension.

 

[Deagonx]

Which doesn’t prove anything because I was never speaking in context of all writer cosmologies, rather I was speaking specifically on Grants.

It doesn't matter. Counter examples from any cosmology are relevant if your argument is that it "logically follows" rather than actual evidence from Grant's cosmology.

One cannot properly and physically exist in 5 dimensions while also existing in 3 dimensions.

And yet you can go to a realm which is properly and physically 5-D whilst remaining 3-D and appearing flat to actual 5-D inhabitants.

They were described as having less substance than shadows on the wall and were said to lack dimension.

Almost like they were there without actually being 5-D. Crazy how that works!

Your argument that it "logically follows" has been thoroughly debunked with multiple counter examples, and you have no evidence in the first place of it being true. Even worse, you quoted an author statement which proves you wrong.

I won't go in circles anymore on this. You can have the last word, it makes no difference.

 

[Xearsay]

It doesn't matter. Counter examples from any cosmology are relevant if your argument is that it "logically follows" rather than actual evidence from Grant's cosmology.

Lol you’re clearly confused. That wasn’t my argument for this aspect of our discussion. My argument was that the Multiverse in Grants cosmology exist inside of a container. Previously where I said “it logically follows that CAS and Mandrakk are transdual” was a different argument directed at a different part of our debate. You wouldn’t have trouble following along with this if you weren’t so busy trying to drag the discussion into 50 different topics in attempt to distract from the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

And yet you can go to a realm which is properly and physically 5-D whilst remaining 3-D and appearing flat to actual 5-D inhabitants.

Almost like they were there without actually being 5-D. Crazy how that works!

Your argument that it "logically follows" has been thoroughly debunked with multiple counter examples, and you have no evidence in the first place of it being true. Even worse, you quoted an author statement which proves you wrong.

I won't go in circles anymore on this. You can have the last word, it makes no difference.

You keep saying they appear “flat” when it was more than that. Captain Marvel and Kyle Rayner literally did not exist relative to the beings in the fifth dimension. I will repeat one of the 5D imps literally said that Captain Marvel and Kyle Rayner had less substance than shadows on his wall and that he needed to make himself less complex just so they could understand him. It’s the exact same way 2-D things do not physically exist in our 3-D world because relative to us they don’t actually exist. 2-D things don’t have traits that defines what we consider necessary for actually existing and being on a 3-D level. So your only example doesn’t support a single thing you’re talking about.

And as said before, what you’re suggesting is a complete contradiction. You can’t be dual and exist in a state that is transdual because if you exist in a state that’s transudal you aren’t dual. That’s why CAS and Mandrakk existing in a state that is transdual proves they are transdual because if they weren’t transdual they wouldn’t be existing in a state that’s transdual.

 

[Xearsay]

Bump

 

[Vondoom]

1) Void manipulation: Was destroying the Monitor realm during his battle with the Thought Robot. (Superman Beyond #2) A realm that was described as a void, the blank, the zilch (Superman Beyond #1) and the Nil where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid. (Superman Beyond #2)

Isn't this just NPI?

2) Law Manipulation: All of the rules of existence were being broken after Mandrakks destroyers and carriers invaded Limbo. (Superman Beyond #2) These very same carriers and destroyers were called Mandrkaks eyes. (Superman Beyond #1)

Disagree

3) Nonexistent physiology type 2: Is a part (Superman Beyond #2) and an extension of Monitor Mind the Overvoid, a conscious living Void. (Superman Beyond #1)

I kinda agree to this it's even on profile.

Transduality type 3: Same reasons as above plus can exist in the Overvoid realm. (Superman Beyond #2) The Overvoid realm is a level beyond The Source (JLA #35) which contains all dualities (Final Crisis). The Overvoid realm also exists beyond the Source Wall which is a barrier functioning as the limit to even thought (Map of the Multiverse) and is described as separating our Multiverse from sublime non-dual omni-awareness. (The Green Lantern #1)

I disagree existing in the Overvoid doesn't make them transdual, it doesn't work that way.

Supergenius intelligence: Is described as the greatest of all Monitors. (Final Crisis secret files) Monitors have created tech capable of freezing time in an entire universe (Superman Beyond #1), securing universes, repairing the Orrery of Worlds (Final Crisis #1), and have made ships that can siphon the higher dimensional bulk space(Bleed), traverse through the Bleed, and are powered by baby universes. (Map of the Multiverse)

Agree

 

[Transcending]

Mandrakk has numerous qualities that the Overvoid does not. Why is this the sticking point?

If by qualities you mean abilities, shouldn't Overvoid just get them then? That would be like Oblivion not having Chaos King's powers.

 

[Xearsay]

Isn't this just NPI?


Disagree


I disagree existing in the Overvoid doesn't make them transdual, it doesn't work that way.

Not sure if it’s NPI or not. Seems more like Void manipulation.

You can’t exist in a state that is transdual while also being not transdual. That is a contradiction because if they weren’t transdual they wouldn’t be existing in a state of transduality.

 

[Deagonx]

If by qualities you mean abilities, shouldn't Overvoid just get them then?

Overvoid already has them.

 

[Transcending]

Overvoid already has them.

Then why did you say it doesn't? Or if you didn't mean abilities by qualities, what did you mean?

 

[Deagonx]

Then why did you say it doesn't? Or if you didn't mean abilities by qualities, what did you mean?

Oh, I see. I misread your original comment.

The assertion he made was that Mandrakk should be given non-existent physiology because he was created by the Overvoid, who has NEP, he should also have it. The point of my comment was that the Overvoid and Mandrakk are different in many ways, so there's no basis for saying that since he was created by the Overvoid, he must have the same attributes and characteristics as Overvoid.

 

[Beyond_transcending]

Oh, I see. I misread your original comment.

The assertion he made was that Mandrakk should be given non-existent physiology because he was created by the Overvoid, who has NEP, he should also have it. The point of my comment was that the Overvoid and Mandrakk are different in many ways, so there's no basis for saying that since he was created by the Overvoid, he must have the same attributes and characteristics as Overvoid.

The issue is, he wasn't created, he is its part.

 

[Deagonx]

The issue is, he wasn't created, he is its part.

It doesn't significantly change the problem with that line of thinking. Fundamentally, the fact that he is "part" of the Overvoid suggests that he is different from the Overvoid.

 

[Transcending]

Fundamentally, the fact that he is "part" of the Overvoid suggests that he is different from the Overvoid.

I think it's similar to Chaos King and Oblivion

 

[Vondoom]

Not sure if it’s NPI or not. Seems more like Void manipulation.

You can’t exist in a state that is transdual while also being not transdual. That is a contradiction because if they weren’t transdual they wouldn’t be existing in a state of transduality.

Void manipulation: Was destroying the Monitor realm during his battle with the Thought Robot. (Superman Beyond #2) A realm that was described as a void, the blank, the zilch (Superman Beyond #1) and the Nil where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid. (Superman Beyond #2)

NPI then and possibly Void manipulation since they were destroying the Monitor realm.

They are not transdual, The overvoid is but they aren't. It's literally his being simply reaching to him or it doesn't make them transdual..it doesn't work that way highest it would only give them feat to affect a transdual being which also they are not as they didn't affect the Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

NPI then and possibly Void manipulation since they were destroying the Monitor realm.

I see no reason for possibly. They were destroying Nil which is a void. And that counts as a form of manipulation.

They are not transdual, The overvoid is but they aren't. It's literally his being simply reaching to him or it doesn't make them transdual..it doesn't work that way highest it would only give them feat to affect a transdual being which also they are not as they didn't affect the Overvoid.

The Overvoid is a realm. Sure it’s also alive, but it’s still a realm first and foremost. The Overvoids state of existence is transdual. CAS and Mandrakk have existed in this state. Therefore they are transdual.

 

[Vondoom]

I see no reason for possibly. They were destroying Nil which is a void. And that counts as a form of manipulation.

If you say so cause void Is literally nothingness so affecting such should be NPI but I'd leave that for a staff.

The Overvoid is a realm. Sure it’s also alive, but it’s still a realm first and foremost. The Overvoids state of existence is transdual. CAS and Mandrakk have existed in this state. Therefore they are transdual.

Overvoid is a place and a being similar to Eternity or Oblivion and it being alive makes it a being first a foremost(not that it matters). Yes it is transdual and CAS and mandrakk existing in it's being doesn't make them transdual as it's not in their being just being in a place doesn't make you transdual.

Transduality doesn't just work that way and nothing even makes CAS or Mandrakk transdual.

 

[Xearsay]

Overvoid is a place and a being similar to Eternity or Oblivion and it being alive makes it a being first a foremost(not that it matters). Yes it is transdual and CAS and mandrakk existing in it's being doesn't make them transdual as it's not in their being just being in a place doesn't make you transdual.

Transduality doesn't just work that way and nothing even makes CAS or Mandrakk transdual.

You’re trying to spin this a certain way that doesn’t align with what I’m saying. Yes the Overvoid as a being is trasndual. Yes the Overvoid as a realm is also transdual. However we’re not talking about the Overvoid as a being, we’re talking about the Overvoid as a realm. The realms state of existence is transdual. CAS and Mandrakk have existed in this state. Therefore they are transdual.

 

[Vondoom]

You’re trying to spin this a certain way that doesn’t align with what I’m saying. Yes the Overvoid as a being is trasndual. Yes the Overvoid as a realm is also transdual. However we’re not talking about the Overvoid as a being, we’re talking about the Overvoid as a realm. The realms state of existence is transdual. CAS and Mandrakk have existed in this state. Therefore they are transdual.

But why should we ignore it as a being? Even so existing in it's being or realm body doesn't make them transdual, it doesn't work that way they need proof themselves of being transdual. Simply existing in it isn't enough plus if they did even affect it..it would only be feat for them to be able to affect transdual beings which also they didn't.

I still disagree to this but tag a staff to this thread for their thoughts on it because I don't think anyone gets transdual that way.

 

[Xearsay]

But why should we ignore it as a being? Even so existing in it's being or realm body doesn't make them transdual, it doesn't work that way they need proof themselves of being transdual. Simply existing in it isn't enough plus if they did even affect it..it would only be feat for them to be able to affect transdual beings which also they didn't.

I still disagree to this but tag a staff to this thread for their thoughts on it because I don't think anyone gets transdual that way.

We should ignore it as a being because in the context of my argument I was talking about it as a realm.

Also you keep saying “they need proof themselves of being transdual” when that’s exactly what my argument entails. The state of existence in the Overvoid realm is transdual, CAS and Mandrakk have existed in said state, therefore they are also transdual. What I’ve described isn’t some unique way of getting transduality type 2, it’s the way every character gets transduality type 2. And that is by existing in a state that is transdual.

 

[Vondoom]

We should ignore it as a being because in the context of my argument I was talking about it as a realm.

Also you keep saying “they need proof themselves of being transdual” when that’s exactly what my argument entails. The state of existence in the Overvoid realm is transdual, CAS and Mandrakk have existed in said state, therefore they are also transdual. What I’ve described isn’t some unique way of getting transduality type 2, it’s the way every character gets transduality type 2. And that is by existing in a state that is transdual.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Overvoid transdual cause he encompasses all Multiverses and reality and being beyond all dualities and so on as he stands as the Canvas of DC?
Them simply existing in it's being doesn't make them so then.

Can I see the ways other characters get Transduality type 2?

 

[Xearsay]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Overvoid transdual cause he encompasses all Multiverses and reality and being beyond all dualities and so on as he stands as the Canvas of DC?
Them simply existing in it's being doesn't make them so then.

Can I see the ways other characters get Transduality type 2?

The reason for why the Overvoid got transduality was because it exist beyond the Source Wall and the crumbling ledge in Nil where all contradictions resolve to unity.

An example of another character who has transduality is God from Seekers into the Mystery. God exist within a realm beyond a level of reality that contains all dualities. Which goes back to what I said before about how (insert character) exist in a state that is transdual and is therefore also transdual.

 

[Deagonx]

The reason for why the Overvoid got transduality was because it exist beyond the Source Wall and the crumbling ledge in Nil where all contradictions resolve to unity

You can't play one side of a statement for your benefit and ignore all the other parts that contradict your claims. This is the full text of the statement from Morrison's IGN interview:

"Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity."

In the same statement that you are using to support Overvoid's transduality, he not only calls Mandrakk and Superman a duality, he also says that the Overvoid is Kirby's Source. The only in-comic statement that addresses duality in reference to Overvoid directly is the Green Lantern scan which refers to it as "non-dual." It's worth noting that the wiki page on transduality says: Transduality is not simply nonduality

God exist within a realm beyond a level of reality that contains all dualities.

That might be true for the "Seekers into the Mystery" series, but it isn't true for DC. You've edited your justification in the OP and the new description has new errors:

The Overvoid realm is a level beyond The Source (JLA #35) which contains all dualities (Final Crisis).

The Overvoid is not 'beyond the Source.' That's an incredibly dishonest way of characterizing the scan (which is actually from JLA #36, not #35). Orion is talking about Mageddon, a war machine from the "Old Gods." It has absolutely nothing to do with the Overvoid, which didn't even exist at this point, and Mageddon is not "transdual."

Second, we know that the Overvoid isn't "a level beyond the Source" because the description of the Source Wall on the Multiversity map places them in the same rung, and both "Overvoid" and "The Source" are written on the white space outside the Source Wall. An obvious reference to the fact that Grant has stated on several occasions that he considers them the same thing, including in the very statement you just quoted to call Overvoid transdual.

 

[Xearsay]

You can't play one side of a statement for your benefit and ignore all the other parts that contradict your claims. This is the full text of the statement from Morrison's IGN interview:

"Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity."

In the same statement that you are using to support Overvoid's transduality, he not only calls Mandrakk and Superman a duality, he also says that the Overvoid is Kirby's Source. The only in-comic statement that addresses duality in reference to Overvoid directly is the Green Lantern scan which refers to it as "non-dual." It's worth noting that the wiki page on transduality says: Transduality is not simply nonduality

Again you try to mischaracterize my behavior to stir up a pointless argument. All I did was tell her the justification other people made for the Overvoid being transdual. The justification those people made involved that author statement, hence why I’m mentioning it. However that author statement is not part of my current justification.

The Overvoid is not 'beyond the Source.' That's an incredibly dishonest way of characterizing the scan (which is actually from JLA #36, not #35). Orion is talking about Mageddon, a war machine from the "Old Gods." It has absolutely nothing to do with the Overvoid, which didn't even exist at this point, and Mageddon is not "transdual."

Second, we know that the Overvoid isn't "a level beyond the Source" because the description of the Source Wall on the Multiversity map places them in the same rung, and both "Overvoid" and "The Source" are written on the white space outside the Source Wall. An obvious reference to the fact that Grant has stated on several occasions that he considers them the same thing.

You realize Maggedon who comes from beyond the Source was also said to be imprisoned on the outer curve of space and time, on the edge of nothing. Implying the Void is beyond the Source.

Lmfao that’s delusional. The map of the Multiverse saying “beyond lies only Monitor Mind, The Source, and the unknowable” only means that in Grant Morrison’s cosmology they each exist somewhere beyond the Source Wall. It doesn’t mean the Overvoid and The Source are the same thing.

 

[Transcending]

I think the Source is an aspect of the Overvoid

 

[Xearsay]

I think the Source is an aspect of the Overvoid

Could be. Its definitely not equal to it though.

 

[Deagonx]

All I did was tell her the justification other people made for the Overvoid being transdual.

And it just so happened to be a word-for-word quote from the statement you previously included in your OP, but removed because it contradicted two of your other claims? That's a wild coincidence.

You realize Maggedon who comes from beyond the Source was also said to be imprisoned on the outer curve of space and time, on the edge of nothing. Implying the Void is beyond the Source.

None of that is in your OP, and even taken at face value do not support the idea that the void is "beyond the source" or that the justification for him describing Mageddon that way had anything to do with the void.

More importantly, Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the character, didn't exist until 10 years after this story came out, so using it as a primary basis for how we characterize the relationship between the Overvoid and the Source is ridiculous.

Lmfao that’s delusional. The map of the Multiverse saying “beyond lies only Monitor Mind, The Source, and the unknowable” only means that in Grant Morrison’s cosmology they each exist somewhere beyond the Source Wall. It doesn’t mean the Overvoid and The Source are the same thing.

Delusional? Lol, Grant has stated on four different occasions that the Source and the Overvoid are the same thing.

The white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, that's God or the Source

Beyond the ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor Mind, or God, or Kirby's Source

Through the transparent absolute of the Overvoid/Source toward unknown, impossible harbors

The white page is the Source.

But hey, maybe Grant got it wrong, and your theory based on this JLA scan from 1999 is the best way to interpret their relationship.

 

[Vondoom]

The reason for why the Overvoid got transduality was because it exist beyond the Source Wall and the crumbling ledge in Nil where all contradictions resolve to unity.

An example of another character who has transduality is God from Seekers into the Mystery. God exist within a realm beyond a level of reality that contains all dualities. Which goes back to what I said before about how (insert character) exist in a state that is transdual and is therefore also transdual.

Then that's not a justification for transduality as it's not enough.

I can agree for that particular character but not CAS or Mandrakk.

 

[Vondoom]

Second, we know that the Overvoid isn't "a level beyond the Source" because the description of the Source Wall on the Multiversity map places them in the same rung, and both "Overvoid" and "The Source" are written on the white space outside the Source Wall. An obvious reference to the fact that Grant has stated on several occasions that he considers them the same thing, including in the very statement you just quoted to call Overvoid transdual.

True, saying Overvoid is above the source might be true but unlikely as the map has both on the same level of existence. The source even featured in GL #12 in form of Jack kirby.

Lmfao that’s delusional. The map of the Multiverse saying “beyond lies only Monitor Mind, The Source, and the unknowable” only means that in Grant Morrison’s cosmology they each exist somewhere beyond the Source Wall. It doesn’t mean the Overvoid and The Source are the same thing.

I see them as the same and not the same, You could say like a trinity with the presence.

 

[Transcending]

Could be. Its definitely not equal to it though.

Yeah agree. I think the Source is really overrated