Small Mandrakk additions

[Xearsay]

Just went into Mandrakks profile and saw some things that I thought were missing and need to be added.

1) Void manipulation: Was destroying the Monitor realm during his battle with the Thought Robot. (Superman Beyond #2) A realm that was described as a void, the blank, the zilch (Superman Beyond #1) and the Nil where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid. (Superman Beyond #2)

2) Law Manipulation: All of the rules of existence were being broken after Mandrakks destroyers and carriers invaded Limbo. (Superman Beyond #2) These very same carriers and destroyers were called Mandrkaks eyes. (Superman Beyond #1)

3) Nonexistent physiology type 2: Is a part (Superman Beyond #2) and an extension of Monitor Mind the Overvoid, a conscious living Void. (Superman Beyond #1)

4) Transduality type 2: Same reasons as above plus can exist in the Overvoid realm. (Superman Beyond #2) The Overvoid realm is a level beyond The Source (JLA #35) which contains all dualities (Final Crisis). The Overvoid realm also exists beyond the Source Wall which is a barrier functioning as the limit to even thought (Map of the Multiverse) and is described as separating our Multiverse from sublime non-dual omni-awareness. (The Green Lantern #1)

5) Supergenius intelligence: Is described as the greatest of all Monitors. (Final Crisis secret files) Monitors have created tech capable of freezing time in an entire universe (Superman Beyond #1), securing universes, repairing the Orrery of Worlds (Final Crisis #1), and have made ships that can siphon the higher dimensional bulk space(Bleed), traverse through the Bleed, and are powered by baby universes. (Map of the Multiverse)

 

[Xearsay]

Also why are the Monitors only rated as having an intellect level of “genius”? We deadass consider Batman and Superman to be smarter than the Monitors?

 

[Confluctor]

Reality warping: Carriers and destroyers which are considered his eyes shattered the skies of Limbo.

I think that would be spatial

Iffy on the high godly.

Also why are the Monitors only rated as having an intellect level of “genius”? We deadass consider Batman and Superman to be smarter than the Monitors?

I wish I knew. Their file is really really bad. I also don't get why they are rated 4B for casually stomping 4Bs lol. Even worse, it's a character file I think and not a civilisation

 

[Xearsay]

I think that would be spatial

Iffy on the high godly

I changed the reality warping thing to spatial. Also added immortality type 3 negation. However for some reason the site isn’t letting me link scans.

I think Mandrakk having high godly regen should only apply to him regenerating his concept. As he did come back as “Mandrakk the Dark Monitor” despite the Overvoid straight up removing his idea from existence. However he didn’t retain all of his power and needed to feed on life to regain his strength. So it’s kind of weird.

 

[Confluctor]

I will have to recheck the negating stuff later after work.

Will get back to high Godly. Tho would like some opinions from others first.

 

[Transcending]

) Void manipulation: Was destroying Nil during his battle with the Thought Robot. (Superman Beyond #2) A realm described as nothing where form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid. (Superman Beyond #2)

2) Spatial manipulation: Carriers and destroyers which are considered his eyes shattered the skies of Limbo. (Superman Beyond #1)

I think Limbo has a few statements of being a void, so that probably counts as Void Manipulation. For the reasons given for Void Manip with Nil, while it did say form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid I am not sure that's enough to be considered as a void.

6) High Godly Regen: Regenerated (The Unexpected #5) after the Overvoid engulfed him until his very idea became lost. (Superman Beyond #2)

I think we already discussed this to be just resistance to existence erasure- https://vsbattles.com/threads/mandrakk-having-high-godly-regen.131756/

I agree with everything else.

 

[Xearsay]

I think Limbo has a few statements of being a void, so that probably counts as Void Manipulation. For the reasons given for Void Manip with Nil, while it did say form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid I am not sure that's enough to be considered as a void.

It’s a little more than that. CAS calls the Monitor realm “the blank, the Nil(nothing), the gone.” Which is a reference to what the Merry Man of Limbo said earlier in Superman Beyond, “there’s nothing beyond the horizon but the Void, the blank, the zip, the zilch.” (Superman Beyond #1) So we should be able to confidently interpret Nil as a void.

I think we already discussed this to be just resistance to existence erasure- https://vsbattles.com/threads/mandrakk-having-high-godly-regen.131756/

I agree with everything else.

Yeah I kind of wanted to go back on this. I think I was wrong in that thread about it being resistance to existence erasure. Mainly because if Mandrakk resisted the Overvoid attacking him by trying to engulf him until his very idea became lost, he wouldn’t have been wounded and broken from the fall. Which is why I now believe that Mandrakk must have somehow regenerated.

 

[Transcending]

It’s a little more than that. CAS calls the Monitor realm “the blank, the Nil(nothing), the gone.” Which is a reference to what the Merry Man of Limbo said earlier in Superman Beyond, “there’s nothing beyond the horizon but the Void, the blank, the zip, the zilch.” (Superman Beyond #1) So we should be able to confidently interpret Nil as a void.

I agree with Void Manip too then, though I am still not sure about Spatial Manip since if Limbo is a void, that would also just give Void Manip.

Yeah I kind of wanted to go back on this. I think I was wrong in that thread about it being resistance to existence erasure. Mainly because if Mandrakk resisted the Overvoid attacking him by trying to engulf him until his very idea became lost, he wouldn’t have been wounded and broken from the fall. Which is why I now believe that Mandrakk must have somehow regenerated.

I will wait for further input on this.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Following

 

[Xearsay]

I agree with Void Manip too then, though I am still not sure about Spatial Manip since if Limbo is a void, that would also just give Void Manip.

I will wait for further input on this.

Is Limbo a void tho? I know there’s a statement about it being living memory where there is no material stuff to be destroyed, however I wasn’t sure if that was enough to classify it as a void. In Animal Man it’s also called a “higher reality.”

 

[Transcending]

Is Limbo a void tho? I know there’s a statement about it being living memory where there is no material stuff to be destroyed, however I wasn’t sure if that was enough to classify it as a void. In Animal Man it’s also called a “higher reality.”

I mean, that's not the only scan, there's some more

 

[Xearsay]

I mean, that's not the only scan, there's some more

Hmm that’s interesting. Although, I’m a little speculative if that’s the same Limbo for a couple reasons.

1) This Limbo appears pretty different from the one we’d see in Final Crisis and Animal Man. This Limbo looks like a complete void while the one in the other stories has cities and buildings.

2) Superboy Prime was apparently sent there after COIE and Superman remembers that he was. (Final Crisis legion of 3 worlds #2) Which is impossible based off how Comic Book Limbo is supposed to work. No one is supposed to remember you when you get sent to Limbo.

3) Braniac 5 would claim that he’s from Limbo. (Final Crisis legion of 3 worlds #2) Which also should be impossible since no one who gets written back into the narrative from Limbo is supposed to remember they were there.

 

[Confluctor]

My issue with high godly is that 1, he isn't doing it by himself. But in any case, he was inside Overvoid, not killed and erased, just stuck in the Over-void. It does say that his idea was lost and that he was forgotten, but I am seeing two possible outcomes;

• Lost of idea, I think, was moreso referring to him getting... well lost inside the Overvoid, which is far too vast. And since its so big and whatnot, there is no way for him to return back.
• His unexpected stuff implies that he wasn't actually erased nor he was destroyed by the Overvoid, but rather it wouldn't let him leave.

Although considering how vague Morrison's words can be at times, I am not opposed to having this as a possibly ability, however, it should be noted that it's an overtime thing - at least until and if we get more confirmation around it in the future.

 

[Transcending]

This Limbo appears pretty different from the one we’d see in Final Crisis and Animal Man. This Limbo looks like a complete void while the one in the other stories has cities and buildings.

I think that could be explained by some parts of Limbo being white and others not.

Braniac 5 would claim that he’s from Limbo. (Final Crisis legion of 3 worlds #2) Which also should be impossible since no one who gets written back into the narrative from Limbo is supposed to remember they were there

Superboy Prime was apparently sent there after COIE and Superman remembers that he was. (Final Crisis legion of 3 worlds #2) Which is impossible based off how Comic Book Limbo is supposed to work. No one is supposed to remember you when you get sent to Limbo.

Didn't Superman remember the events of Limbo?

 

[Xearsay]

My issue with high godly is that 1, he isn't doing it by himself. But in any case, he was inside Overvoid, not killed and erased, just stuck in the Over-void. It does say that his idea was lost and that he was forgotten, but I am seeing two possible outcomes;

• Lost of idea, I think, was moreso referring to him getting... well lost inside the Overvoid, which is far too vast. And since its so big and whatnot, there is no way for him to return back.
• His unexpected stuff implies that he wasn't actually erased nor he was destroyed by the Overvoid, but rather it wouldn't let him leave.

Although considering how vague Morrison's words can be at times, I am not opposed to having this as a possibly ability, however, it should be noted that it's an overtime thing - at least until and if we get more confirmation around it in the future.

Honestly after looking at the scans again I agree. I’ll remove it. We also need to remove his resistance to existence erasure on his profile since he wasn’t erased by the Overvoid but just banished into it.

 

[Transcending]

Superman Beyond's Limbo was also stated to be nowhere

 

[Xearsay]

I guess it could be just another part of Limbo. Also while Superman did say he would remember the Merry Man, we never got an actual follow up on whether he actually did. So I’m still a little skeptical due to the Superboy Prime and Braniac 5 statements. Especially since they seem to be conflating Limbo with that place Superboy Prime went to after COIE.

Also I don’t know if Limbo being called “nowhere” is enough to qualify as a Void.

 

[Transcending]

Also I don’t know if Limbo being called “nowhere” is enough to qualify as a Void.

Alone ig it's maybe not enough but with the white void scan, having no material, and being nowhere coupled together, wouldn't you agree a convincing argument can be made for Limbo being a void?

Also while Superman did say he would remember the Merry Man, we never got an actual follow up on whether he actually did. So I’m still a little skeptical due to the Superboy Prime and Braniac 5 statements.

I guess it depends on if we believe Superman remembers Limbo or not, but considering he remembers his time in Nil and there, as CAS he held up Limbo, I would be surprised if he didn't.

 

[Xearsay]

Alone ig it's maybe not enough but with the white void scan, having no material, and being nowhere coupled together, wouldn't you agree a convincing argument can be made for Limbo being a void?

Well with the “no material thing” and “being considered nowhere” one could definitely make an argument for it. Plus Morrison considers it as what’s been erased so I guess it can be classified as a void. I will remove spatial manipulation then if that’s ok.

I guess it depends on if we believe Superman remembers Limbo or not, but considering he remembers his time in Nil and there, as CAS he held up Limbo, I would be surprised if he didn't.

I wouldn’t be surprised either however I still think other people would have a problem with it.

 

[Transcending]

With Spatial Manip gone I don't see any problem with the list.

 

[Confluctor]

I don't really mind the Limbo being a void of sort.

 

[Xearsay]

Alrighty then. Should we call in more people or is what’s currently listed fine to apply?

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Deagonx]

Law Manipulation: All of the rules of existence were being broken after Mandrakks destroyers and carriers invaded Limbo. (Superman Beyond #2) These very same carriers and destroyers were called Mandrkaks eyes. (Superman Beyond #1)

There's no indication that this technology is literally part of Mandrakk's power, or that the notion of "rules of existence" being broken was part of his power.

3) Nonexistent physiology type 2: Is a part (Superman Beyond #2) and an extension of Monitor Mind the Overvoid, a conscious living Void. (Superman Beyond #1)

How is this "non-existent?"

4) Transduality type 3: Same reasons as above plus can exist in the realm of the Overvoid. (Superman Beyond #2) A realm where all contradictions are resolved to unity (Morrison IGN interview) and exists beyond the Source Wall which is a barrier functioning as the limit to even thought (Map of the Multiverse) that separates our Multiverse from sublime non-dual omni-awareness. (The Green Lantern #1)

This only suggests transduality for the Overvoid itself, not Mandrakk.

6) Immortality type 3 negation: Effectively killed Neon the Unknown (The Unexpected #6) who was shown regenerating after taking very lethal wounds. (The unexpected #1)

How did he negate it if Neon literally comes back later in the comic?

 

[Xearsay]

There's no indication that this technology is literally part of Mandrakk's power, or that the notion of "rules of existence" being broken was part of his power.

They're literally called the "eyes of Mandrakk."

How is this "non-existent?"

The Overvoid has it and because Mandrakks a part of it that's why he should get it.

This only suggests transduality for the Overvoid itself, not Mandrakk.

It suggest transduality for Mandrakk as well as he can exist in the realm of the Overvoid.

How did he negate it if Neon literally comes back later in the comic?

He negated it because Neon did not regenerate himself from Mandrakks lethal attack. He was effectively killed and then sent to the World Forge where he would then resurrect himself.

 

[Deagonx]

They're literally called the "eyes of Mandrakk."

That's just a title.

The Overvoid has it and because Mandrakks a part of it that's why he should get it.

That's a non sequitur. Being part of a greater being doesn't make you equal to that being, nor does it necessarily grant you all of it's qualities.

It suggest transduality for Mandrakk as well as he can exist in the realm of the Overvoid.

How so?

He negated it because Neon did not regenerate himself from Mandrakks lethal attack. He was effectively killed and then sent to the World Forge where he would then resurrect himself.

He has immortality because he can resurrect himself in the Forge. Mandrakk did nothing to prevent that.

 

[Xearsay]

That's just a title.

No where is it mentioned that this is just a title.

That's a non sequitur. Being part of a greater being doesn't make you equal to that being, nor does it necessarily grant you all of it's qualities.

No one said Mandrakk is equal to the Overvoid. However he should share its qualities as he is a direct part of it.

How so?

I already explained it in the main post.

He has immortality because he can resurrect himself in the Forge. Mandrakk did nothing to prevent that.

There’s different types of immortality. The immortality I’m talking about that Mandrakk can negate is immortality type 3, which is being able to regenerate from lethal wounds. Resurrection is a different immortality type that Mandrakk cannot negate.

 

[Deagonx]

No where is it mentioned that this is just a title.

No where is it mentioned that it's literally his actual eyeballs. It's described as monitor technology. How does that description make any sense if these ships (of which there are far more than two, by the way), are literally the eyeballs of Mandrakk, who was locked in a cage for most of this story?

No one said Mandrakk is equal to the Overvoid. However he should share its qualities as he is a direct part of it.

That's a non-sequitur. Being a part of a being doesn't mean you have all the same qualities.

I already explained it in the main post.

No, you didn't. How does existing in the Overvoid make you non-dual? Several characters have existed in the Overvoid.

The immortality I’m talking about that Mandrakk can negate is immortality type 3, which is being able to regenerate from lethal wounds. Resurrection is a different immortality type that Mandrakk cannot negate.

When did Neon show the ability to heal from lethal wounds?

 

[Xearsay]

No where is it mentioned that it's literally his actual eyeballs. It's described as monitor technology. How does that description make any sense if these ships (of which there are far more than two, by the way), are literally the eyeballs of Mandrakk, who was locked in a cage for most of this story?

They can be Monitor nanotechnology and function as his eyes at the same time.

That's a non-sequitur. Being a part of a being doesn't mean you have all the same qualities.

Yes it does. He’s a direct part of the Overvoid. if I took some wood and broke a piece off of it. Would you claim this part of wood doesn’t have the same characteristics as the rest of the wood?

No, you didn't. How does existing in the Overvoid make you non-dual? Several characters have existed in the Overvoid.

Because it’s beyond the Source Wall which is the limit to even thought and leads to non-dual Omni awareness. All which is posted in the scans.

When did Neon show the ability to heal from lethal wounds?

It’s in multiple issues of the unexpected. However the site isn’t letting me post the scan for some reason. So you will have to wait until I can get on my PC.

 

[Deagonx]

They can be Monitor nanotechnology and function as his eyes at the same time.

How? Are we saying Mandrakk literally has robot eyes that were created by the monitors?

if I took some wood and broke a piece off of it. Would you claim this part of wood doesn’t have the same characteristics as the rest of the wood?

If I took a leaf from a tree, would I say the leaf has every characteristic of the tree itself? Of course not. Yet it was a part of the tree.

Because it’s beyond the Source Wall which is the limit to even thought and leads to non-dual Omni awareness. All which is posted in the scans.

That does not mean being there makes you those things.

 

[Transcending]

Yes it does. He’s a direct part of the Overvoid. if I took some wood and broke a piece off of it. Would you claim this part of wood doesn’t have the same characteristics as the rest of the wood?

If I took a leaf from a tree, would I say the leaf has every characteristic of the tree itself? Of course not. Yet it was a part of the tree.

I think both of you guys used wrong examples. What matters here is existence and non-existence. Irrespective of whether you cut a piece of wood from a larger wood piece or if you took a leaf from a tree, both the leaf and wood would still have the one property that matters with their source=existence. They are not non-existent. Both exist, similar to their source.

 

[Transcending]

It’s in multiple issues of the unexpected. However the site isn’t letting me post the scan for some reason. So you will have to wait until I can get on my PC.

Are you using Chrome? On Chrome the same thing happens to me, which is why I use Firefox to post scans when I am on mobile. Try that.

 

[Xearsay]

Are you using Chrome? On Chrome the same thing happens to me, which is why I use Firefox to post scans when I am on mobile. Try that.

I’m on safari for but for some reason it’s not letting me post a particular scan from the Unexpected series.

How? Are we saying Mandrakk literally has robot eyes that were created by the monitors

Where is it mentioned that Mandrakks destroyers were created by the Monitors?

If I took a leaf from a tree, would I say the leaf has every characteristic of the tree itself? Of course not. Yet it was a part of the tree.

This is a bad analogy. However I like Transcendings more. You can read his comment below.

That does not mean being there makes you those things.

If I exist on a level that stands as a limit to all ideas and where all contradictions are resolved to unity. That 100% does make me transdual.

 

[Deagonx]

both the leaf and wood would still have the one property that matters with their source=existence

Is the assertion here that the Overvoid does not exist? Because that's utterly absurd.

Where is it mentioned that Mandrakks destroyers were created by the Monitors?

When they are called "Monitor technology."

This is a bad analogy

No, it isn't. A leaf is still part of a tree, but it is very different from a tree. The fact that Mandrakk is part of the Overvoid doesn't afford him any innate properties the way you are suggesting.

If I exist on a level that stands as a limit to all ideas and where all contradictions are resolved to unity. That 100% does make me transdual.

You are just repeating yourself. Several beings have been to the Overvoid and were not "resolved to unity." So either being in the Overvoid doesn't make you transdual, or the Overvoid itself isn't transdual.

 

[Transcending]

Is the assertion here that the Overvoid does not exist?

No, of course not, my point is that the Overvoid has non-existent physiology, but both the leaves of a tree and the actual tree itself have existent physiology, similar to a wood and the larger wood it's cut from. So physiology wise they are the same.

 

[Deagonx]

No, of course not, my point is that the Overvoid has non-existent physiology, but both the leaves of a tree and the actual tree itself have existent physiology, similar to a wood and the larger wood it's cut from. So physiology wise they are the same.

Are we saying that the Overvoid is not capable of creating a being with existent physiology?

 

[Transcending]

Are we saying that the Overvoid is not capable of creating a being with existent physiology?

But Mandrakk isn't a random creation, it's a literal part of the Overvoid.

 

[Deagonx]

But Mandrakk isn't a random creation, it's a literal part of the Overvoid.

Rephrased: are we saying the Overvoid couldn't create an extension of itself with existent physiology?

Mandrakk has numerous qualities that the Overvoid does not. Why is this the sticking point?

 

[Kuuzo7]

Deagonx comments are on point.

The fact that the Mandrakk is transdual cannot be substantiated by the mere fact that "Mandrakk" is an eschatological figure believed (I emphasize it) by the Monitors to be the "ultimate enemy", as opposed to Thought Robot, seen as a protective figure in the Monitors' end times myth.

"It can only be a weapon. A doomsday machine engineered by genius to defend us agaisnt some ultimate enemy."
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1

"Only on the last day will it yield up its secrets, it said."
Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2

The relationship between "Mandrakk" and "Thought Robot" is an obvious dichotomy with the following scans, describing the latter to "preserve life", while the former is "the opposite of life".

There is nothing more to say based on the above evidence. Both Mandrakk and Thought Robot are figures part of the Monitors end times myth, whose raison d'être are at odds with each other as we've seen previously, by embodying respectively positive and negative sides of dichotomy.