I think this can be explained by the fact that this is simply how Mandrakk is represented within existence/“story.” Meaning Mandrakk was basically transdual and then entered the Multiverse from the Overvoid and took upon an archetype. Which makes sense as he was corrupted by the stories that he found in the Multiverse and transformed into “Mandrakk the Dark Monitor” or the “ultimate enemy” as you put it.
Then why would we add a purely theoretical, headcanon quality that only applies to Dax pre-corruption to Mandrakk's profile?
The same point I was going to make.
This would only be the case if we took it literally, which we have several reasons not to. The first being that Mandrakk's final defeat was literally the result of him not being able to exist in the Overvoid. The second being that he was locked in a tomb the entire time, not literally building a bridge, the third being that bleed siphons were not a literal bridge to the Overvoid and he didn't need to be in the actual Overvoid itself to feed on the multiverse. The fourth being that this was stated by an alt version of Superman based on reading the book in Limbo. I don't see a need to interpret this literally.
Why would that statement support the idea that Mandrakk's in-multiverse form was a "manifestation" and not his true self?
1) Mandrakk never died from entering the Overvoid. That’s literally not stated anywhere in Final Crisis.
Regardless of how wrong this is, that’s not the point of my comment.
It’s supported because Mandrakk manipulating the Monitors to believe himself into existence implies that there is a greater self outside of existence(the multiverse) that has to manipulate the Monitors to produce some figure of belief that can exist inside.
I didn't say he died, I said that was how he was defeated.
To the dark multiverse. Not the Overvoid. This doesn't change the fundamental piece of information that I am bringing up, unless you are claiming that due to this portal Mandrakk actually had free reign to do whatever he wanted the entire time, which is directly contrary to his role in Final Crisis.
That is what the bridge was referring to, as far as I know. What are you claiming the bridge is?
Because Ultraman is not in a position to understand the specifics.
Mandrakk split from Dax Novu, and is a corrupted entity.
It's not wrong at all, he says "feed on light" not "the Light." You added a word and capitalized the L. Whether or not it was the "point of your comment" you clearly changed what the evidence said, so I am correcting it.
How does that mean that? Why are you equating "existence" to the Multiverse in the context of zillo saying "believe him into existence?"
Why would we restrict it to comics that Grant Morrison's wrote? You literally just referenced The Unexpected which was written by Steve Orlando. Even if we did, none of those characters are transdual in any way.
I agree with everything except these
Ok but you’re using Mandrakk being BFR’d into the Overvoid as some type of proof of him being unable to exist in it. Which doesn’t support your stance. A character being BFR’d into a location doesn’t mean they can’t exist in the location they were BFR’d into.
I never said it lead to the Overvoid. Mandrakk in the beginning of the unexpected said he was cast into the Overvoid from the Multiverse and landed in the Dark Multiverse. Meaning the Dark Multiverse is in the Overvoid but separated from the Multiverse. So Mandrakk building a bridge from the Void into the Multiverse and “climbing up from darkness to feed on light” means that Mandrakk was going from the dark and through the Overvoid, so he could reach the Multiverse.
Where are you getting this from? I think the bridge was just some type of link between the Overvoid and the Multiverse that Mandrakk was creating so he could reach it.
Where’s your proof that Ultraman can’t understand what he’s reading from the Book of infinite pages?
No Mandrakk and Dax Novu are the same being. Mandrakk is just Dax Novu after he’s been corrupted. This is backed up by Supermans statements and it’s stated in Final Crisis secret files.
That’s not the part of your last comment that I found wrong. So please stop going off topic.
I’m equating existence to the Multiverse because that’s what existence is equated with on other occasions in Superman Beyond.
Because Grant Morrison is the only one who treats the Overvoid as some transdual place. So I’ll ask again, do you have any proof from Grant Morrison’s stories, of other characters who aren’t transdual reaching the Overvoid.
No. This only exist in an interview statement. In the comics, it’s made pretty blatantly clear to us that Mandrakks entire appearance in Superman Beyond as this vampiric devil-like figure was just something the Monitors were believing into existence and into their story. The Monitor Sphere and the Monitors are literally just a giant story meant to mimic Revelations that was created by the Overvoid around CAS after he became infected by him.
Then what’s this then? “…exists beyond the Source Wall which is a barrier functioning as the limit to even thought (Map of the Multiverse) that separates our Multiverse from sublime non-dual omni-awareness. (The Green Lantern #1)”
I don’t care about what Morrison says in an interview if it contradicts the actual material. Hell it wouldn’t even make sense for CAS to be the opposite end of a dichotomy because dichotomies fusing are literally what powers CAS in the first place. After making contact with the Overvoid, Allen Adam would claim that CAS is activated by the collision of opposing qualities.(Superman Beyond #2) Meaning dualities were literally fused into symmetries and then broadcasted into Nil just to power CAS.
That’s not what I said so I don’t know why you’re using quotes. I said Mandrakk used the Monitors to believe him into existence, which is what’s said in scan.
You literally used this scan to assert Overvoid's transduality in this CRT. Now it's invalid?
Yes.
And here’s where you start lying again. Nowhere did I claim the author statement should be disregarded because it’s “inconvenient.” I claimed the author statement should be disregarded because it contradicts the actual material in the story.
And where in the story does it say you need to be transdual to exist in the Overvoid?
“…exists beyond the Source Wall which is a barrier functioning as the limit to even thought (Map of the Multiverse) that separates our Multiverse from sublime non-dual omni-awareness.(The Green Lantern #1)”
How does this equate to transduality in any way?
This is just reasserting that Overvoid itself is transdual. Again, how does this support the idea that you need to be transdual to exist in the Overvoid?
First, Grant has said himself multiple times that the Source is the Overvoid, not that it contains it.
You kind of just answered your own question. If the Overvoid which is a realm is transdual, then existing in the realm of the Overvoid would make you transdual.
Once again I don’t care about what Grant says in an interview if it contradicts the actual material. The Source and the Overvoid are listed as two separate beings on the Multiversity map. Also I was using the transdual Source as just an example of a being that exist in the realm of the Overvoid on the same level as CAS and Mandrakk and is also transdual.
This is a non-sequitur. Why would that be true? You've shown no evidence for this, and the only evidence for it in your OP you have now dismissed because it turns out it explicitly states Mandrakk isn't transdual.
Lol.
Doubtful, they are just two names for the same thing.
It’s not a non-sequitur at all. The Overvoid is a transdual level of existence. CAS and Mandrakk have existed on that level. Therefore they are transudal. This is a very simple argument. And like I said before, I don’t care about what Grant Morrison says in some interview if contradicts the material.
I don’t care if your doubtful. You have no material evidence for what you’re talking about. If the Source and the Overvoid were the same they wouldn’t be listed as two completely separate beings beyond the Source Wall on the Multiversity map.
It's a simple argument with no evidence. You've shown nothing from the comics to suggest that being transdual is a requirement to exist in the Overvoid other than your assumptions, and your own evidence says CAS and Mandrakk are not transdual.
Just an assumption from you, again.
All the evidence was already posted and you even admitted the Overvoid was transdual. As from your own statements.
You’ve posted literally 0 comic evidence of the Source and the Overvoid being the same. Meanwhile I’ve already posted the Multiversity map which proves that they’re two separate beings. Im not gonna entertain your bullshit. Post evidence from the comics or drop the topic.
It’s more like whether reaching a transdual level of existence grants transduality. I feel like he’s just wording it in that weird way to cause confusion.
You've provided no evidence to suggest existing in the Overvoid makes you transdual other than an assumption, and you've literally posted evidence from the author himself saying it doesn't.
I posted the author himself saying they are. Same guy who wrote the map, actually. You used an author statement in your CRT. Hypocrite much?
No, you posted the map which proves they're the same being. Both of their names are listed in the same area on the map and the side bar, proving their the same. We also have multiple confirmations from the author that they are.
You're projecting. Describing Overvoid as a transdual "level of existence" is the confusing wording. Overvoid is a realm/being which is itself transdual. There's nothing saying he is a "level of existence" or that his "level" is transdual.
The proof is via the fact that the Overvoid is a transdual level of existence. So obviously anyone who can exist on the level would be transdual. CAS and Mandrakk have existed on this level. Therefore they are transdual. I don’t give a shit about an author statement when it contradicts the material.
Okay. And? I can post an author talking about how Sentry is the most powerful character in Marvel. However nobody would give a damn. Do you wanna know why? It’s because the author statement would contradict the actual material.
Lmfao The Source and the Overvoid being both listed in the same area of the map doesn’t prove they’re the same. Going by that logic I guess The Endless and the New Gods are also the same because they’re both listed in the same part of the map as well. This is absolutely horrible logic. Two beings both said to exist beyond something doesn’t make them the same.
You literally just contradicted yourself. If the Overvoid is a realm which itself is transdual, then you do realize beings who can reach and exist on the level of this realm would be transdual right?
What defines Overvoid as a "transdual level of existence" rather than a transdual being/realm? You are purposefully altering the terms in a way that circularly confirms your assumption, without any evidence to support it.
Nothing in the material supports the idea that you need to be transdual to enter the Overvoid, and the author has explicitly said this isn't true.
They aren't. They are both in the Sphere of the Gods, sure, but their realms are placed under separate categories. And the author of the map didn't explicitly state they were the same thing multiple times like he did with the Overvoid/Source. The scan you posted asserting that the Source itself is transdual is also by Grant.
You keep saying this, but you've provided no evidence other than your assumptions, and the evidence you provided in the CRT quotes the author literally saying otherwise.
It’s a transdual level of existence because it’s a realm that exist on its own level beyond the level of the Monitor Sphere. And you keep saying “I haven’t provided evidence” when the conclusion that CAS and Mandrakk are transdual, is something that logically follows from them being able to exist in a transdual realm.
Exactly. And similarly to the New Gods and the Endless, the Overvoid and The Source might both be beyond The Source Wall but they’re listed as two separate beings. Meaning Grants statements from some interview are worthless because they contradict the material.
Weird how the author didn't think so.
There are numerous examples in DC alone where this is proven to be false.
I didn’t make a presupposition. And it does contradict the comics because according to Grant CAS and Mandrakk can’t exist in the transdual realm of the Overvoid but if we look at the comics, we see that CAS and Mandrakk were shown sitting in the Overvoid.
First of all, I never presented the analogy in context of the DC Universe. Second even if I was speaking in context of the DC Universe, only one of your examples is from Grant Morrison’s cosmology and it’s out of context. Kyle Rayner and Shazam went to the fifth dimension via the rock of eternity. It’s not like they walked in there or some shit, they used magic.
When did Grant say they cannot exist there?
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You simply saying you think it's the logical conclusion is not an argument, either, unless you explain why it must be true. You have no comic book evidence. And you have an author statement in your CRT which directly contradicts you.
This is not an argument. This is fiction, Grant said "this is the Overvoid, it's transdual. Mandrakk and CAS are in it, they aren't transdual" and you're claiming this is problematic somehow?
Yes, and this is literally true in DC. You do not need to be higher dimensional to exist in a higher dimension.
Irrelevant. We are discussing the DC universe.
We are not discussing specific cosmologies and how they work, we are discussing your claim that it is logically impossible to exist in a higher dimensional realm without being higher dimensional. I have shown you multiple instances in DC canon where this is definitively false.
Good for them. This does not change the fundamental fact that they went to the 5th Dimension, and existed in it, without being 5th Dimensional themselves.
After talking about how CAS and Mandrakk are a dichotomy he would claim “beyond the crumbling ledge those concepts don’t exist.”
I already explained why it must be true. The Overvoid is a transdual realm. CAS and Mandrakk reached the realm of the Overvoid. Therefore they are transdual.
Saying “this is fiction” doesn’t mean we throw out all logic. You can’t exist in a realm that transcends duality without also being transcendent to duality. Similarly to how one cannot exist in a higher dimension without being or becoming higher dimensional.
No where in my example for my analogy did I say in the “DC universe” that you can’t reach a higher dimension without being higher dimensional. So you trying to argue about whether you need to be higher dimensional to reach a higher dimension in the DC Universe is actually what’s irrelevant because that’s not what I was arguing about.
Yes it does because they were only able to reach the fifth dimension due to magic and then they were only able to exist there due to a fifth dimensional imp that was acting as their “host.” Lol the only relevant example you have is something completely out of ******* context.
Right, because CAS and Mandrakk were on the ledge, not beyond it.
No, you've made a claim. You have not given any reason why being in a transdual realm mandates that you are transdual. You have not even attempted to offer a justification for it other than claiming it's logically mandatory.
Except you literally can exist in a higher dimension without being or becoming higher dimensional, as has been proven. You also haven't justified your claim that this is a logical necessity.
This is about DC. Good grief.
When was it said that a fifth dimensional imp acting as their "host" was the only reason they were able to exist there? That doesn't change the fact that they were 3-dimensional and existed in the 5th dimension.
That’s not the point of what I’m saying. The point is that by Grants own claims CAS and Mandrakk cannot exist in the Overvod despite the fact that the comics prove they have existed in the Overvoid.
Yes I have. If a realm exist transcendent to duality. To reach it one would have to transcend duality because the realm itself exist transcendent duality. A place existing beyond something requires one to go beyond that thing to exist there. Besides the higher dimension example another would be the moon. The moon exist beyond the Earth, so to exist on the Moon one would have to go beyond the Earth. The fact that you’re actually arguing against this is ridiculous.
Our topic of conversation being about DC doesn’t mean you get to literally alter what I said. Nowhere did I say for my example about higher dimensions that it was true for the DC Universe.
Yes it does because it was a byproduct of magic. Regularly they wouldn’t be able to exist there. And even when Captain Marvel and Kyle Rayner were in the fifth dimension they didn’t properly exist in the fifth dimension at all. They were presented in the fifth dimension as fiction, as less substance than shadows on the wall. Also how other writes treat higher dimensions is not relevant as I’m only trying to apply an abilities addition to CAS and Mandrakk as they are presented in Grant Morrison’s cosmology.
Except my point is that he didn't say they couldn't. He said they didn't which is accurate.
Except duality is not a 'thing' that Overvoid is 'beyond.' It is an attribute that Overvoid specifically itself does not have. This does not automatically extend to any being who enters the void. The Source Wall was destroyed and the Multiverse didn't blink out of existence, and at one point the Green Lanterns were literally holding back the Overvoid with their rings. Clearly, interacting with the Overvoid is not as simple as you claim, and I do not see a valid case for it being a logical necessity.
This does not change that it is a direct refutation to your assertion. You do not need to be 5-D to enter the Fifth Dimension. Shazam and GL entered the Fifth Dimension with magic, despite not being 5-D and were perceived as "flat" by it's native inhabitants. No matter what method was used to accomplish this, it does not alter the fundamental fact that they entered the Fifth Dimension without being 5-D. Which means your assertion is wrong, and your analogy is wrong by extension.
It is absolutely relevant, because your argument was not that "you need to be higher dimensional to enter higher dimension in Morrison's cosmology" you said that it was a logical necessity. Which means any counter-example, no matter which writer it is from, disproves this. Your assertion that you logically must have X quality to enter a realm with X quality can be proven false with numerous counter-examples from DC itself.
Grant said they don’t exist but also implied they can’t exist their either. As Grant says “all contradictions are resolved into unity” implying that once you get into the Overvoid, CAS and Mandrakk cannot exist.
Once again, you’re implying that the Overvoid can be a transdual realm while the beings who exist on the level of the realm don’t have to be transdual, which doesn’t make any sense. You can’t exist somewhere that transcends duality while being within duality. Thats like saying one can exist on the moon while being also on the Earth.
Maybe not to enter it, but to properly exist on a 5-D level you need to be higher dimensional. And for that reason one case of two beings accessing magic from a higher dimensional power to reach a higher dimension doesn’t matter because they couldn’t even properly exist in that higher dimension in the first place.
You want to talk about what I said while completely altering it. I never even said I was speaking in context of the DCU for my example. So how some random writers from DC treat higher dimensions is irrelevant. Also I’m not arguing being in a realm with a quality gives you that quality. I’m arguing that a place existing beyond something requires one to go beyond that thing to properly exist there.
