Saint Seiya atomization crt.

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Man, I knew something was wrong with atomizing a centimeter of concrete being 8-A...

Currently, 6-C for Saint Seiya comes from this calculation. So, the problems start coming up. The first link is dead, so it should be replaced. But, uh... 2'143'012'962'432.5 joules per cc for granite atomization? Do excuse my doubt, but the idea of atomizing granite requiring roughly 10^7 times as much energy as all other materials we have listed on the calculations page seems rather strange to me.

OOn the other note, there are more obvious problems, like obviously visible debris remaining. I heard the author made some rather... bad claims, such as characters being Sol even when blatantly faster and upscaling from already claimed to be Sol characters, or times when the distance between galaxies was claimed to be in the billions of kilometers, and so on.

Unless we wish to assume that a) atoms are that big in-verse (makes no sense and breaks any Calc regardless) or that the quotes take precedence over visuals (in which case... you can't pixelscale to visuals?), I don't see how this could be excused to be actually atomization of the whole thing. It'd make more sense if part of it was atomized to break it with more ease or something.

 

[Planck69]

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I mean, I know most people also agreed the 6-C calculation had its issues. But I'm not looking forward to some drama that has been going on last time. Though, I know Executor N0 seemed neutral, but said a lot of elaborations that seemed to make sense to me. I'm just going to follow to see how it goes and hope things can stay civilized.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, for one, another value for atomization of granaite should be found. I don't think anyone'll disagree that of itself is insanely inflatiatory.

 

[Antoniofer]

I wonder, is this atomization made by "punching too hard" and not by a particular power that allows the user to do so?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually I think it said "Subatomic" not just Atomic. And it was done by something called "Cosmo Power" which is basically like some subatomic level Ki Control or something along those lines.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but that do not change that character may use Cosmo to break atomic bounds instead of simply punching hard.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, for one, is it outright stated that every single atom is affected in the feat? It... certainly doesn't look like it, I can tell you that much.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Might be best to ping some Saint Seiya experts; @Matthew_Schroeder @EmperorRorepme

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah, I'm aware of that, but that do not change that character may use Cosmo to break atomic bounds instead of simply punching hard.

IT's outright stated that they do it with every attack.

"The basis of destruction is destroying the atoms. Burning your cosmos, you can shatter the atoms."

The stuff about there being debris can be explained by it not being all of the atoms in the ground but some of them.

Do excuse my doubt, but the idea of atomizing granite requiring roughly 10^7 times as much energy as all other materials we have listed on the calculations page seems rather strange to me.

This is because what is called "Atomic Destruction" in Saint Seiya seems to be what people consider sub-atomic destruction on the wiki. Namely, that individual protons, neutrons and electrons are split apart or even cut apart in some instances, as opposed between the bonds between the separate atoms themselves being split.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That still does not help with the fact that fist sized debris are notably left a good deal of the time.

Still, for now, could you get another scan for imgur with it?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Wasn’t there a thread that literally supported removing said feat like months ago? I literally remember it.

Edit - https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-revision.73679/

 

[Antoniofer]

That one statement still do not clear the doubt; there's a subtle difference between "your attacks can atomize" and "you punch so hard you can atomize".

 

[Thelastmlg]

Using the volume in the calc (rounded tho) and the atomatization value of rock, i got around 412 tons of tnt, are those rocks special or what?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Problems really stack up when a scan directly states that attacks using "simple strength" would just destroy one's own body.

And, regardless, nearly all scans directly show big chunks of debris when destruction actually happens, or is even visualised. It seems far more simple to claim that only a portion of the atoms are destroyed to crack the target.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That one statement still do not clear the doubt; there's a subtle difference between "your attacks can atomize" and "you punch so hard you can atomize".

They literally say "Crush the atoms with you fists".

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

They don't say all of them, and show the literal opposite.

You can't ask to ignore the visuals, and then use pixelscaling with the very same visuals.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They don't say all of them, and show the literal opposite.

You can't ask to ignore the visuals, and then use pixelscaling with the very same visuals.

Did you read my post above where I argued this can be rectified by using a portion?

Regardless it is unarguable that atomic destruction goes on in ways considered to be sub-atomic destruction on this website. I hope you're not going to argue that even that is false.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What portion? There is no way you could really claim a reasonable %.

I am arguing that while it happens, it is only use to fragment the rock, and the amount that is visibly left makes assuming large amounts were atomized is unrealistic still.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What portion? There is no way you could really claim a reasonable %.

I am arguing that while it happens, it is only use to fragment the rock, and the amount that is visibly left makes assuming large amounts were atomized is unrealistic still.

Sure can. The rubble that exists isn't enough to fill up the entire crater in any of the scenes.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Sure can. The rubble that exists isn't enough to fill up the entire crater in any of the scenes.

Go on then, measure the size of all of that rubble, add it up, and tell me how much is missing.

You can't, because there are debris at the edge and almost certainly outside of the panel.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Go on then, measure the size of all of that rubble, add it up, and tell me how much is missing.

You can't, because there are debris at the edge and almost certainly outside of the panel.

And?

There's also a statement from of the Toei Guidebooks that says 20 nuclear bombs going off can't destroy a Saint's Cloth, where a scientist tries to make sense of how they can be so durable and resist the destruction of atoms.

This page specifically:

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As for an English Translation:

"The first problem that arose during the project was to select which material would be used to create the Cloths. Even with the understanding that the Cloths were a kind of armor designed to protect the bodies of the Saints, there lacked a material capable of withstanding the attacks of these warriors, whose immense destructive power resided in the destruction of the atoms. But as all matter is made of atoms themselves, such a material could not exist. With the exception of one thing: They had to study a real Cloth.

Dr. Asamori then began working on the Research Center to study the Sagittarius Gold Cloth which Mitsumasa Kido had brought back from Greece. In other words, he attempted to create an imitation of the Gold Cloth. He pushes his research studies to the molecular level, then to the atomic level, until he reached the study of the elementary particles and even that of quarks themselves, but he could not understand why the Cloths had this mysterious capability to endure this incredible power of atomic destruction (Which would then suggest the existence of something on a level deeper than that of quarks). After realizing that he could never replicate a true Gold Cloth, Dr. Asamori decided to redirect his research towards a different approach. And that would be to create Mechanical Cloths which focused the power of all modern scientific knowledge.

The attacks of the Saints were capable of destroying their target on an atomic level, therefore there was nothing to worry about in the first place even if they never reached the opponent. Dr. Asamori then started with the theoretical concept that the Cloths were capable of distorting space and immediately began his experiments. And in that age, the only known thing capable of distorting space itself was the force exerted by the gravitational wave of a Black Hole. But to create an artificial Black Hole and incorporate it into the Cloths' framework was far too much work for just one man. And so Dr. Asamori left it to the Graad Foundation to establish collaborations with NASA, the Pentagon and the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Theoretical knowledge regarding the creation of an Artificial Black Hole was something that was known since Einstein's time. It would be necessary to place 20 atomic bombs on an asteroid 10 kilometers in length and have them all detonate simultaneously so that the potency of their explosion would compress the asteroid's whole body. When compressed to a size smaller than that of an atom, it would be transformed into a micro-Black Hole. Dr. Asamori then thought it would be best to confine it within a Magnetic Field. And after countless failed attempts he was finally able to create and contain three Black Holes. Equipped with these micro-Black Holes, the Steel Cloths acquired a perfect defensive capability and a nearly unlimited energy source."

Saints' power to destroy atoms being something completely absurd and beyond human technology is not inconsistent with the actual intentions of the series.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

...None of that answered what I said.

They don't destroy all atoms, you either take that plain out or ignore visuals and don't try to calc it at all.

With that, you cannot at all know how big the amount of atomized stuff is. Unless you can find a way to accurately guess, there's no way to calculate that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They don't destroy all atoms, you either take that plain out or ignore visuals and don't try to calc it at all.

I said multiple times that you can use a percentage and it'd still be Tier 6 or Tier 7.

 

[Antoniofer]

If the Calc is considered questionable, can't we just go with the 20 nukes statement? Is more objective and still tier 7 regardless.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The statement is applicable to Toei-anime Saint Seiya. I still want a sub-atomization calc for craters, even using percentages. Seiya has a different crater feat in the first chapter that has way less rubble than the one currently used.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Matt, this is as blatant as it gets.

 

[Hasty12345]

I disagree with the downgrade for the fact atomisation has 30 statements across the franchise and "visible debris" can be from literally anywhere in the area affected by the explosion. It's literally impossible to deduce Seiya isn't atomising from the debris when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence which says he can.

it's an island level explosion, there gonna be stuff from the area flying around....

Edit: To clarify, I take issue with downgrading the verse from Atomisation/sub-atomisation calcs, if there is a logical error in how this specific calc was handled, then I'll leave that to calcers. Hence my claim of "island level explosion" is subject to the logical validity of how the calc was done.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Using the volume in the calc (rounded tho) and the atomatization value of rock, i got around 412 tons of tnt, are those rocks special or what?

Yeah so i'm confused here, am i doing something wrong? Like, are the rocks in question some different material with really strong atom bonds or is the way he destroyed them different?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The statement is applicable to Toei-anime Saint Seiya. I still want a sub-atomization calc for craters, even using percentages. Seiya has a different crater feat in the first chapter that has way less rubble than the one currently used.

Then, post the Sans, and prove what % would be reasonable.

I disagree with the downgrade for the fact atomisation has 30 statements across the franchise and "visible debris" can be from literally anywhere in the area affected by the explosion. It's literally impossible to deduce Seiya isn't atomising from the debris when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence which says he can.

it's an island level explosion, there gonna be stuff from the area flying around....

Edit: To clarify, I take issue with downgrading the verse from Atomisation/sub-atomisation calcs, if there is a logical error in how this specific calc was handled, then I'll leave that to calcers. Hence my claim of "island level explosion" is subject to the logical validity of how the calc was done.

The rubble is blatantly blasted from where he punched, its impossible to say it isn't.

And, no, and Island level explosion in actuality would have vaporised the guy and everything withing a few hundred meters, so the area of effect was not up to par with the Ap claimed for certain.



Simply put, some atomization =/= full atomization, and there is no possible way you could conclude how much was and wasn't atomized.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And, no, and Island level explosion in actuality would have vaporised the guy and everything withing a few hundred meters, so the area of effect was not up to par with the Ap claimed for certain.

You can't use this argument when you are already starting with "the attack is focused on an atomic level on an area."

 

[Hasty12345]

The rubble is blatantly blasted from where he punched, its impossible to say it isn't.

could you elaborate on this with the scans your referring to please.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You can't use this argument when you are already starting with "the attack is focused on an atomic level on an area."

Yeah? That's the point. You can't claim that the rubble is from environmental damage.

He claimed a 6-C explosion would cause that. I said it would cause more. I did not intent to use that as an argument against the tier, but against that one argument.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

could you elaborate on this with the scans your referring to please.

I might be wrong, feel free to show the scan of him hitting the ground for making that crater.

I am on the phone, so it's a bit difficult to put stuff on imgur. Still, iirc there already was a link for it, so feel free to repost it.


As I already said, I'm fine with him having atomization powers. However, I am asking for proof of how much he is atomizing in his attacks.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I only agree on that it's implied it took multiple punches, but I think the most logical interpretation is that it's Subatomic destruction based on the lore.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I only agree on that it's implied it took multiple punches, but I think the most logical interpretation is that it's Subatomic destruction based on the lore.

Of the whole crater? If so, I imagine you'd only do so by ignoring visuals.

But, you can't pixel scale if you wish to ignore the visuals then...

 

[Hasty12345]

Okay, so I re-read the relevant parts of chapter 1.

On page 33, we see the sanc floor is smooth.

Later, on page 39 we see Marin's demonstration of cosmos.

and then later on page 45 we have Seiya's feat and there IS Debris.

Some things to note:

1) Marin's tiny demonstration of how cosmos works is just that, a demonstration, and left quite a bit of debris.

2) for Seiya's feat, he atomises a much larger area, with noticeably less debris.

This implies that effort and cosmos have a direct impact on how much of an object is atomised. As such, since we see Seiya in chapter 1 atomise a significant portion of the crater, it stands to reason higher level gold saints could atomise more.

I'm in-different to how this particular feat is handled, as (if I'm being totally honest) I've never used chapter 1 Seiya in a debate... However, given that chapter 1 clearly defines a difference in how different levels of cosmos can in-deed impact how much is atomised, gold saint level characters should still be granted sub-atomisation in their calcs, mainly due to all the major statements and showings of sub-atomisation being done are from 7th/8th sense gold saints.

Seiya should still get durability negation from chapter 1 however, as he is still atomising a significant (albeit unquantifiable portion) of the crater.

At-least that's my position on the matter.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I agree with that. I am certain they do atomized objects as described. I disagreed on them doing so 100% all the time regardless of visuals directly contesting that.

If you can find a reliable way to calculate how much of the crater had to be atomized for that amount if debris to be left, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah? That's the point. You can't claim that the rubble is from environmental damage.

He claimed a 6-C explosion would cause that. I said it would cause more. I did not intent to use that as an argument against the tier, but against that one argument.

But attacks in Saint Seiya do have like air pressure and shockwaves, it's just that the power behind them is localized.

I do agree that the rubble is from the impact though but it doesn't debunk atomic destruction.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Regardless, there were people nearby and a blast strong enough to create that rubble should've killed them.

And I said other stuff for atomization. They do to an extent, obviously. But I doubt you could find a proper way to find how much was and wasn't atomized.