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Alright so, recently 8th Sense users were upgraded to having 5-D HDE. I'll be going over the evidence used and why I believe it does not remotely fit the Wiki standards for a higher dimension (or just isn't valid in general), and should be removed.
There are countless scenes in the series that clearly show us that merely becoming a disembodied soul out of a dead body does that remotely equate to them becoming higher dimensional objects, as they can still be contained within, finite, 3-D spaces and like most interpretations of souls in fiction, are relative in size to their real 3-D bodies. I feel as though this shouldn't even need citations since it's so common knowledge to anyone who knows the slightest about the series, but regardless I'll leave a few notable scenes that showcase this below.
Note that at this point Saga/Camus/Shura don't have the 8th sense (which they only awakened upon their deaths in the Hades Arc), and yet we see their souls being contained in normal 3-D spaces (as you know, normal souls), and even being made to don 3-D Cloths of regular size, proving their relativity. The point about Cloths is shown in Shiryu vs. Deathmask too.
Even in the other thread, the notion that every soul in the verse is 5-D, wasn't accepted. This statement has no merit.
Asmita here is saying that the higher plane Illias was in felt as if it were beyond some thin impenetrable membrane, but now he'd finally reached it. The statement by nature is a metaphorical comparison and not literal, and even if it were literal, he never calls it some higher dimensional membrane or anything like that in the scans, nor does he make any note of the universe. And also, from the above, we already know Illias spiritual existence was in the regular world, and this in reference to his mind/consciousness.
The actual context of this realm that Illias's mind reached and his state of being and how they get there makes it clear this interpretation makes absolutely no sense of it being some 5-D higher spatial dimension or dimensional transcendence to reach it.
To preface this part, I'll note the Wiki standards regarding "higher dimension/plane" statements.
What this dimension is:
A mental plane created and shaped by the thoughts of Illias, Sisyphos, and Asmita, as stated, and shown through the fight sequences and interactions in it where we see their thoughts shaping said reality (such as Illias' thoughts manifesting a train to ram into Sisyphos and Asmita).
How this dimension was reached:
As stated and shown above, this dimension is reached simply by raising one's consciousness and searching within himself and believing in the respective phenomenon of a world where thoughts create reality. This has absolutely nothing to do with dimensional transcendence whatsoever or breaching some sort of higher dimensional membrane. .
I think this is quite self explanatory at this point. The higher dimension statement is in reference to the plane being a higher dimension of thought and consciousness, and isn't remotely some actual physical spatial dimension or an R>F transcendent reality that views the universe as fiction whatsoever, not even close. It's not even inherently real by conventional terms and is shown to be a metaphysical, mental thing, hence why it can be reached simply by raising one's level of consciousness and searching deep within one's mind, which in this case clearly has 0 pertinence to any sort of dimensional transcendence. Especially since we know that even for Illias himself, his actual spiritual existence is still confirmed to be in the regular world, further proving the abstract, mental nature of this world.
Proposal: Simple. The 5-D HDE for 8th sense souls gets removed. If people wanna discuss what other abilities, if any, the scenes involving this mental dimension may merit, I kindly request that it be done in its own thread.
Agree: Firestorm808 (Admin), Mr._Bambu (Admin), DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) Alonik, LuffyRuffy46307
Disagree: Danny33wise, TheUnshakeableOne, Koolray, Hiryu-Z, Dr._whiteee
So here, the fact that Illias says this as something that applies to all souls (not something exclusive to those who awaken 8th sense) makes it abundantly evident that he's not referring to some literal change in dimensionality, but simply referring to the description in the series of souls ascending to the Underworld (another dimension) after death.
There are countless scenes in the series that clearly show us that merely becoming a disembodied soul out of a dead body does that remotely equate to them becoming higher dimensional objects, as they can still be contained within, finite, 3-D spaces and like most interpretations of souls in fiction, are relative in size to their real 3-D bodies. I feel as though this shouldn't even need citations since it's so common knowledge to anyone who knows the slightest about the series, but regardless I'll leave a few notable scenes that showcase this below.
Note that at this point Saga/Camus/Shura don't have the 8th sense (which they only awakened upon their deaths in the Hades Arc), and yet we see their souls being contained in normal 3-D spaces (as you know, normal souls), and even being made to don 3-D Cloths of regular size, proving their relativity. The point about Cloths is shown in Shiryu vs. Deathmask too.
Even in the other thread, the notion that every soul in the verse is 5-D, wasn't accepted. This statement has no merit.
To quote the wiki standards page again:
And lets look at the translated statement:A: "Transcendence" is a vague term which can be used in several contexts, many of which do not at all align with how it is normally used in our forums, as it simply means "to go beyond the ordinary", first and foremost. For example, statements of "transcending space and time" can refer to things like time travel, dimensional travel, or even agelessness in some cases. Hence, it is very preferable to ascertain the meaning of statements involving this term from background context (If there is any), being especially careful around flowery language or purple prose.
A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.
It is perfectly possible for a statement like transcending space and time to mean that a character is simply "untied" from the universe's spacetime, and is thus unaffected by alterations in the timeline and similar meddlings. It's not exactly uncommon for time travel (Or any action / process that affects something through different points in time) to be described as "transcending time and space." Transcend space and time can also refer to a spacetime continuum being different to a "regular" spacetime continuum (Say, a strange-looking reality that may hold a few different physical laws, for example) or slightly do be more complex than a regular universe, even significantly so, but not qualitatively superior. Something A being said to "transcend" something B in real life can refer to the former being superior to the latter in some qualities in a notable way, but still roughly compatible. It does not necessarily mean transcendence not in an immeasurable way that would be graphically indescribable, such as A's qualities being superior to B by infinite amounts. With this in mind, statements of realities or beings with transcendence over space & time/the universe/etc., on their own, are not assumed to refer to qualitatively superiority, unless of course further context may elaborate on and contextualize this.
Very straightforward here. His thoughts transcended space and time (not his being itself), and as he notes in the previous sentence and the what the Wiki standards require, the background context here is that this in reference to him gaining knowledge of the workings of the world. This has absolutely nothing to do with 5-D dimensional transcendence or existence.It’s…..almost as if something separated from me. Almost as if I knew the workings of the world from the beginning. I, who understand what I am, my thoughts transcend space as well as time. Indeed, I will never be lost…
Cool but, this has nothing to do with higher dimensions either. And it says he can perceive multiple dimensions, not multiverse, but it doesn't matter either way.
This is so grossly out of context it's hard to think where to even begin.
Asmita here is saying that the higher plane Illias was in felt as if it were beyond some thin impenetrable membrane, but now he'd finally reached it. The statement by nature is a metaphorical comparison and not literal, and even if it were literal, he never calls it some higher dimensional membrane or anything like that in the scans, nor does he make any note of the universe. And also, from the above, we already know Illias spiritual existence was in the regular world, and this in reference to his mind/consciousness.
The actual context of this realm that Illias's mind reached and his state of being and how they get there makes it clear this interpretation makes absolutely no sense of it being some 5-D higher spatial dimension or dimensional transcendence to reach it.
To preface this part, I'll note the Wiki standards regarding "higher dimension/plane" statements.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com
As the standards say, it's important to note what exactly is meant here by a "higher dimension" in the context of the setting itself, and should have evidence of being qualitatively superior to the universe, like encompassing it within itself, seeing it as fiction, being a higher state of being. None of this is the case whatsoever here.Now, one of the most common scenarios where this question might arise is when dealing with cosmologies involving "higher planes of existence" or similar structures. In such cases, it's very important to note what exactly being a "higher plane" entails in the context of the setting: For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe, in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1.
They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.
So from the following, we are already given direct confirmation that Illias' soul/cosmo continues to exist in the regular world as an integrated part, merely unbound by the cycle of life and death (as others who have awakened 8th sense).Asmita:やはり彼の小宇宙は輪廻を外れ世界にとけ込み生きている
Asmita: After all, his cosmo is out of Samsara (cycle of life and death), blending into the world and living in it.
Asmita: Fue el leo anterior... como lo pense, su cosmos ha salido del ciclo de muerte y resurrection y sigue viviendo en este mundo.
Asmita: It was the previous Leo... as I thought, his cosmo has come out of the cycle of death and resurrection and continues to live on in this world.
From the summary of the chapter courtesy of the translators at SaintSeiyaForos:
Afirma que es el León anterior y que su cosmos está fuera del ciclo de la vida y la muerte, viviendo integrado en el mundo.
He affirms that he is the previous Lion and that his cosmo is outside the cycle of life and death, living integrated into the world.
]
1st page:
Japanese:
Asmita:それ故貴方の意識の位まで己を高めれば ならなかった
Asmita: Therefore, I had to raise myself to your level of consciousness.
Spanish:
Asmita: Finalmente logre alcanzar su cosmos.. Esta espacio es un campo de batalla para tus pensamientos. Por eso tenia que ascender al nivel de su conciencia.
Asmita: I finally managed to reach his cosmos. This space is a battlefield for thoughts. As so, you have to ascend to the level of his consciousness.
2nd page:
Japanese:
Illias: 二人共よくぞこの次元へ至るまでたか小宇宙を高めたな
Illias: You two have done a great job raising your cosmo to come to this dimension.
Spanish:
Illias: Lo hicieron muy bien elevaron sus cosmos hasta alcanzar esta dimension.
Illias: They did well, they raised their cosmos to reach this dimension
3rd page:
Japanese:
Illias: それは私の思考の陣の内に己の思考の陣…
Illias: It's your array of thoughts within my array of my thoughts...
Spanish:
Illias: Este es tu espacio mental dentro de mi espacio mental.
Illias: This is your mental space within my mental space.
Thirdeye's (SaintSeiyaForos) translation:
Illias: Ese es tu territorio de pensamiento dentro de mi territorio de pensamiento
Illias: This is your thought territory within my thought territory.
So to summarize.4th page:
Japanese:
Sisyphos:そうだどのここはイリアス殿の強烈な思考が実現する世界. すなわち私がこの現象を信じねば実現しない世界
Sisyphos: Yes, this is the world where the intense thoughts of Lord Ilias are realized/come true. In other words, a world where I must believe in this phenomenon in order for it to come true.
Spanish:
Sisyphos: Este es el espacio del Senor Ilias. Los intensos pensamientos y deseos del senor allias se materializan. Tengo que agudizar mis sentidos y buscar mas profundo en mi interior. En otras palabras, un espaco inalcanzable al menos que se reproducuzca un fenomeno.
Sisyphos: This is Ilias' space. The intense thoughts and desires of Mr. Ilias materialize. I have to sharpen my senses and search deeper within myself. In other words, a space that is unreachable unless a phenomenon is reproduced.
Thirdeye's translation:
Sisyphos: Ciertamente, en este mundo los intensos pensamientos y deseos de Ilias se materializan. En otras palabras, un mundo que no puede alcanzarse a menos que crea en este fenómeno. Tengo que aferrarme a mis sentidos y buscar incluso más profundo dentro de mí... incluso más...
Sisyphos: Indeed, in this world Ilias' intense thoughts and desires materialize. In other words, a world that cannot be reached unless you believe in this phenomenon.
What this dimension is:
A mental plane created and shaped by the thoughts of Illias, Sisyphos, and Asmita, as stated, and shown through the fight sequences and interactions in it where we see their thoughts shaping said reality (such as Illias' thoughts manifesting a train to ram into Sisyphos and Asmita).
How this dimension was reached:
As stated and shown above, this dimension is reached simply by raising one's consciousness and searching within himself and believing in the respective phenomenon of a world where thoughts create reality. This has absolutely nothing to do with dimensional transcendence whatsoever or breaching some sort of higher dimensional membrane. .
I think this is quite self explanatory at this point. The higher dimension statement is in reference to the plane being a higher dimension of thought and consciousness, and isn't remotely some actual physical spatial dimension or an R>F transcendent reality that views the universe as fiction whatsoever, not even close. It's not even inherently real by conventional terms and is shown to be a metaphysical, mental thing, hence why it can be reached simply by raising one's level of consciousness and searching deep within one's mind, which in this case clearly has 0 pertinence to any sort of dimensional transcendence. Especially since we know that even for Illias himself, his actual spiritual existence is still confirmed to be in the regular world, further proving the abstract, mental nature of this world.
Proposal: Simple. The 5-D HDE for 8th sense souls gets removed. If people wanna discuss what other abilities, if any, the scenes involving this mental dimension may merit, I kindly request that it be done in its own thread.
Agree: Firestorm808 (Admin), Mr._Bambu (Admin), DarkDragonMedeus (Admin) Alonik, LuffyRuffy46307
Disagree: Danny33wise, TheUnshakeableOne, Koolray, Hiryu-Z, Dr._whiteee
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