Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

[Eseseso]

Oh, Dormammu absolutely does scale to Low 1-A. He's just not quite equal to Eternity.

As a Dormammu fan this hurts me, but I accept it.

My boi God-Emperor Doom scales above the 1-A Infinity Gauntlet, right?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree with Ultima's depiction. In addition: Thanks to the Cosmic Cubes The Celestials would scale above, and thanks to Tiamut's feats in Heroes Reborn: The Return and other such depictions they aren't ridiculously weaker, especially since Tiamut was wrecking all of Creation at least up to the cusp of Eternity in said comics while being extremely weakened to the point Asheena who lost a lot of her Celestial powers could fight him off.

Franklin should scale BTW. I know it's obvious if anyone knew me that I would make mention of it but I'm going to. Narration implies he would've been able to stop the fight between Galactus and In-Betweener if he had them then. Then he was the reason the Tiamut above couldn't obtain Heroes Reborn reality despite him being capable of warping all of creation at least up to the cusp of Eternity. Onslaught actually does hype Franklin far above the Phoenix Force Jean and narration even heavily hints Franklin could've defeated Onslaught had it not been for his fear canceling out his powers. In-fact he's consistently called the most powerful mutant in just about every run where he's a thing. He was described by Roma as capable of destroying the Multiverse, later on again described as Roma as capable of destroying everything, harmed Multiversal/Omniversal/Complete Eternity indirectly, Uatu calls him a threat to all of Creation in the same issue as Abraxas shenanigans. And this is nowhere near all of the hype and statements he's gotten.

 

[Gasper]

I think we should leave skyfathers and all characters on that level out of this discussion for another thread.

 

[ByAsura]

I suppose that's why this is part 1.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I'll probably be barely active in this thread if I don't see something that necessitates my input.

 

[Gasper]

I suppose that's why this is part 1.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. I'll probably be barely active in this thread if I don't see something that necessitates my input.

I know, just people started arguing for odin's tier even though it's not part of the OP at all.

 

[Executor_N0]

One of the biggest points for this thread is understanding that the nature of reality is more than just the segment of space-time where humanity and various other aliens exist. At the moment that it's accepted that just the standard Low 2-C universe isn't enough to encompass the totality of said reality, it's already above baseline Low 2-C.

In a way, it's because in the simplest sense what they mean by "universe" in that context, can also be called a "multiverse". In cases like how The Beyonder was exploring the various layers of reality and calling it a "multiverse", I see that as an example of that. And that is why context is always going to matter a lot to know where each feat is.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ultima gave me permission to comment (yesterday in fact but I fell asleep), and everything seems to make sense. I’m certain Ultima knows the issue I refer to, but universes in Marvel are dreams folded inside dreams, infinitely, in-fact, which should add to the justifications sufficiently.

 

[Gasper]

Where do we scale shit like the M body living tribunal's realm from strange tales which is stated to be above eternity and is described as endless nothingness or the veil of nothingness which is even beyond M body tribunal. Even beyond that is dream realm which sees everything below as a dream.

 

[Udlmaster]

Do we know that all M-Bodies from a singular source (i.e, Eternity) are created equally?

Ah, me and Ultima had this conversation before to address any inconsistencies in the scaling of M-Bodies.

No, they vary in power depending on the abilities of the M-Body entity, it's actually explained when we're introduced to them.

Well, giving Odin a variable tier between 3-C and Low 1-A depending on the story seems a bit on the extreme side, yes? We might as well throw our hands up in the air and just give all characters variable tiers between their lowest lows and highest peaks, and I much prefer if we scale them from consistent portrayals rather than the greatest extremes in either direction.

I plan to make a thread later on a similar topic that leads on from Ultima's thread about the "hierarchy of canonicity" for Marvel characters.

Skip the box below if you don't care.

It basically covers how we should threat canonicity of stories (and their respective feats and statements) when it comes to Main line Marvel characters.

Since it's the one I've been reading the most (I'm nearly done with 616 Wolverine as a matter of fact), I'll use Wolverine as my example.

For Wolverine, his main writer was Chris Claremont, he wrote most of his stories and was his creator (alongside others) and thus his stories should bare the most weight, similarly, main line comics about the Character (For Wolverine those would be Wolverine (XXXX), Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, etc.)

Then you have crossover comics, ala Secret Wars, X-Men vs the Avengers, etc. Basically where everyone involved is written by a Writer who likely doesn't know how they behave and their upper power limit (For example, Uncanny X-Men leading into Secret Wars 2 has Wolverine say that they're not executioners and that they wouldn't kill someone like a Baby Hitler, but in Secret Wars 2, Wolverine seems totally fine with killing a baby Beyonder. I should note, these are directly after each other chronologically too.)

Lastly is flash appearances/cameos in another comic, this is usually where scaling goes out the preverbal window since the comic focuses on another character. These are things like Wolverine appearing in Spectacular Spider-Man or Punisher. These are the last in the hierarchy since writers usually big up the main character and not the side-character here for a single issue.

 

[Deagonx]

So, to summarize all this: Universes in Marvel (When the term is being used to refer all that's encompassed by the Abstracts) are big. They are not just a single spacetime, but infinitely many of them, all separated by a gap that is likewise infinite as well. Furthermore, they include higher-dimensional spaces with many more dimensions than just the 4 we are used to, as well as several higher planes of existence that transcend spacetime altogether. This last detail also tells us that although some of the highest Abstracts personify things like time (Eternity) and space (Infinity), they are not time and space as conventionally understood at all, but higher forms of those things that are beyond the mortal concepts of them (Also seen with the scans about Asgard and the "timeless sub-cosmos" inside of Eternity). Indeed, Eternity sees all that's inside him as part of his dreams and thoughts.

To this point, I agree, universes in Marvel are larger than a single 4-D spacetime.

I might note, also, that the topic of alternate dimensions never comes up once in this storyline, and before Silver Surfer's initial statement the sole reference to "dimensions" with regards to Slorioth's nature is him deriding humans for being three-dimensional creatures. Therefore it seems entirely clear to me that Slorioth's pan-dimensionality refers to him existing in all spatial dimensions of the verse; his totality being too large for any "lose dimensionality" cements this, as it's pretty much saying that no single dimensional level can contain him, since he spans all of them.

Secret Defenders #25 was published in 1995. Only one year later, in 1996, was published Ghost Rider 2099 Vol. 1 #25, which has this scan in it. You can most likely tell where I'm going with this: Given infinite dimensions, Slorioth's pan-dimensional nature would be High 1-B.

We've discussed this in private, so you're already aware, but I disagree with this assessment.

We are told Slorioth cannot be contained within Earth-616, his servant says: "While no single dimensionality could ever hope to contain the grandiose totality I have now embraced, the foothold I have granted him should more than suffice." And when he is casted away by the Living Tribunal, TLT says: "The all of Slorioth has ever been too vast for any lone dimensionality, and though his omnivorous nature demands a steady continual expanse, at this juncture he must content himself on other vistas."

Throughout the story we know that the way Slorioth is spreading himself through the realm is with psychic corruption. Silver Surfer refers to him as a primordial manifestation of man's darkest nightmares.

My overall impression of Slorioth is still leaning strongly towards some kind of psychic horror that expands through the psyche of the realm/s he is in, not something that has an ever-expanding or uncontainably high spatial dimensionality. He is definitely higher-dimensional, but I don't think his pan-dimensionality pertains to spatiality.

Getting back on track, there are more arguments for the contents of the Universal Abstracts being infinite-dimensional, and the next one revolves around rescaling something that we already accept as being so: The Crossroads of Infinity.

I recall an earlier discussion about the Marvel Negative Zone which tackled the Crossroads. My feelings are largely the same as they were then, given that the Crossroads is literally a gateway into "limitless dimensions" in the realm sense, I don't feel that the evidence we have is adequate to interpret that phrase as referring to spatial dimensions, especially given that the only concrete values we get in this storyline for spatial dimensions are in the single digits, the leap to infinite, IMO, is not based on solid enough evidence.

From this, it is clear that the infinite dimensions that the "Cascade" here comprehends are indeed higher dimensions. They're even described as "layers of heavens that encrust the tiny shell of this universe," and their amount is described as "ever-increasing," which supports the first scan saying that the Cascade is where infinite dimensions converge, and shows (Alongside it being described as "the Cascade of dimensions") that said dimensions are indeed tied to the layers that the Voyager pierces through on his way to it.

In the context of the full argument, it seems that you are arguing for these dimensions to be spatial, but Im not sure how you reached that conclusion. Can you explain further?

Since the Quantum Zone would be a source of all energy, fueling even the higher-dimensional entities of the universe (The Watchers currently are scaled to the Celestials, based off of their existence-spanning war), thus having power equivalent to aleph-1, the top dogs of the Cosmic Hierarchy being in turn whole aleph above it, as said above, would make them Low 1-A.

I agree with them scaling above the other cosmic beings, but not L1-A given my objections to the premise through which those tiers are given.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We've discussed this in private, so you're already aware, but I disagree with this assessment.

We are told Slorioth cannot be contained within Earth-616, his servant says: "While no single dimensionality could ever hope to contain the grandiose totality I have now embraced, the foothold I have granted him should more than suffice." And when he is casted away by the Living Tribunal, TLT says: "The all of Slorioth has ever been too vast for any lone dimensionality, and though his omnivorous nature demands a steady continual expanse, at this juncture he must content himself on other vistas."

Interpreting a "lone dimensionality" as referring to a realm of existence doesn't really make sense here, seeing as the logical conclusion of this would be that the statement is saying "No single realm can possibly contain Slorioth," which is demonstrably false: Slorioth does have his own realm in which he resides (That's the trans-temporal "tabernacle" in which he is imprisoned), and is himself a denizen of Earth-616 alongside other mystical entities.

I don't really see how him being a psychic entity means much, also.

In the context of the full argument, it seems that you are arguing for these dimensions to be spatial, but Im not sure how you reached that conclusion. Can you explain further?

The fact that "oceans of higher dimensions" are mentioned as the main character watches the Voyager ascend back to his plane.

I recall an earlier discussion about the Marvel Negative Zone which tackled the Crossroads. My feelings are largely the same as they were then, given that the Crossroads is literally a gateway into "limitless dimensions" in the realm sense, I don't feel that the evidence we have is adequate to interpret that phrase as referring to spatial dimensions, especially given that the only concrete values we get in this storyline for spatial dimensions are in the single digits, the leap to infinite, IMO, is not based on solid enough evidence.

To my knowledge, that thread ended up being closed, and the Crossroads of Infinity are still used as evidence for a High 1-B cosmology on the profiles. From that I assume they're still deemed to be fine to use on that angle.

I agree with them scaling above the other cosmic beings, but not L1-A given my objections to the premise through which those tiers are given.

What exactly do you mean?

 

[Deagonx]

Interpreting a "lone dimensionality" as referring to a realm of existence doesn't really make sense here, seeing as the logical conclusion of this would be that the statement is saying "No single realm can possibly contain Slorioth," which is demonstrably false: Slorioth does have his own realm in which he resides (That's the trans-temporal "tabernacle" in which he is imprisoned), and is himself a denizen of Earth-616 alongside other mystical entities.

We've talked about this at length before, but I really just don't see it that way. Especially given the TLT's words. His omnivorous nature demands constant expansion. So even if there is a realm that he resides in, it still doesn't contradict the premise of his goal with Earth-616 or his expulsion from TLT to interpret it as referring to the various universes, not their spatial dimensions. This is also what the guidebook indicates, for what that is worth.

To my knowledge, that thread ended up being closed, and the Crossroads of Infinity are still used as evidence for a High 1-B cosmology on the profiles. From that I assume they're still deemed to be fine to use on that angle.

Yeah I don't entirely remember what ended up happening with that. I think it probably shouldn't be used as evidence.

The fact that "oceans of higher dimensions" are mentioned as the main character watches the Voyager ascend back to his plane.

Right, but where are we interpreting them as higher infinities rather than normal layers of heaven?

As a good chunk of you all already knows: Transfinite numbers in mathematics aren't the same as additions of +1 dimensions. In fact, everything from 1-dimensional space to countably infinite-dimensional space is included in 2^aleph-0 (The cardinality of the real numbers, which the wiki currently equates to aleph-1), and therefore something with a greater size than this is inherently Low 1-A or higher.

I think I may have misunderstood this argument the first time I read it. In a nutshell, your point is that transfinite numbers are Aleph-1? Like, uncountable and such, therefore L1-A?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We've talked about this at length before, but I really just don't see it that way. Especially given the TLT's words. His omnivorous nature demands constant expansion. So even if there is a realm that he resides in, it still doesn't contradict the premise of his goal with Earth-616 or his expulsion from TLT to interpret it as referring to the various universes, not their spatial dimensions. This is also what the guidebook indicates, for what that is worth.

Not really a valid point, either, seeing as Slorioth's omnivorous nature doesn't really have anything to do with the fact he is too large to be contained in any dimensionality. He is always too vast for that, regardless of whether or not he is expanding ("The all of Slorioth has ever been too vast for any lone dimensionality"), which is why he only directly interacts with the Earth Dimension through an infinitesimal piece of himself to begin with. If it had to do with his expanding nature, that wouldn't be the case, and he'd be able to fully immerse himself in it before eventually (But not immediately) getting too big.

Not to mention that "dimensionality" as a term means "The quality of being dimensional," and refers to geometrical dimensions, generally speaking, not to realms. Given that the same comic already makes mention of higher dimensions, it should be fairly standard to assume that the term that by default refers to spatial geometry is referring to spatial geometry.

Right, but where are we interpreting them as higher infinities rather than normal layers of heaven?

The realms being "Oceans of higher dimensions" (Meaning the dimensions are things composing them) already implies as much, alongside the fact that they are depicted as containing the normal universe and perceiving it as a "tiny shell" (Said universe being often described as infinite). I also don't get what you mean in that last part. What is a "normal" layer of heaven?

Yeah I don't entirely remember what ended up happening with that. I think it probably shouldn't be used as evidence.

It currently is, so, that is probably not a topic that's to be tackled in this thread.

I think I may have misunderstood this argument the first time I read it. In a nutshell, your point is that transfinite numbers are Aleph-1? Like, uncountable and such, therefore L1-A?

My point is that something that has power corresponding to aleph-2 is Low 1-A, due to everything from 1-dimensional space to infinite-dimensional space being included in aleph-1 (It all has the same cardinality, so skipping to aleph-2 is skipping to a size larger than all of it).

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

The "transfinite powers" point is a little sketchy to me. Saying "there are infinities higher than other infinities"="Low 1-A" is a bit ehhh to me, specially without any lack of a clarification. Dunno about Skyfather people scaling too.

Everything else's fine to me though.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The "transfinite powers" point is a little sketchy to me. Saying "there are infinities higher than other infinities"="Low 1-A" is a bit ehhh to me, specially without any lack of a clarification

Well, it's about establishing a minimum, largely, and if it's referring to higher cardinals (Which it is, since single dimensional jumps aren't "higher infinities" as far as set theory is concerned. 4-D and 5-D both fall under aleph-1, the same infinity), that minimum has to be Low 1-A.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I guess, but it is the kind of blanket statement that I would be careful about using if there isn't anything supporting it, which, if anything, there's two other examples in which they use infinity hilariously wrong... well, I guess it's fine alongside your other 4 points anyway.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Mostly share the same thoughts for how little I know of Marvel.

I second this because the consistency between each writing of characters is a bit offputting.

I can see what the OP is arguing for may seem to be taking what's known about them at their peak. I don't have a problem with it but with Ant bringing that up then it seems a little controversial in one way or another. Plus such intended usage of transfinite and infinity is sometimes contradicted by the many times those terms being used differently or not supporting its actual meaning.

However, the majority seems to agree with the OP but I’ll stay neutral after discussing with some people behind much of if these beings scale this high.

The Abstracts being Low 1-A seems fine. I personally prefer that these beings stay where they are but we’ll have to wait and see.

 

[Deagonx]

Not really a valid point, either, seeing as Slorioth's omnivorous nature doesn't really have anything to do with the fact he is too large to be contained in any dimensionality. He is always too vast for that, regardless of whether or not he is expanding ("The all of Slorioth has ever been too vast for any lone dimensionality"), which is why he only directly interacts with the Earth Dimension through an infinitesimal piece of himself to begin with. If it had to do with his expanding nature, that wouldn't be the case, and he'd be able to fully immerse himself in it before eventually (But not immediately) getting too big.

I don't agree. Especially when viewing both statements in combination. Despite his uncontainable size, Earth is being described as a foothold. Then TLT says that despite his omnivorous nature, and the fact that he can't be content, he must content himself on other vistas.

Viewed within the full context of the story and the information we are given, I think this again goes back to the psychic corruption spreading, thats the foothold, thats what he must do on "other vistas" to content himself, despite his omnivorous nature.

I will leave this topic at this, since we have already discussed it thoroughly elsewhere: I just can't personally buy in to the idea that these statements are referring to spatial dimensionality, I don't believe it is the best way to interpret the evidence we have.

Not to mention that "dimensionality" as a term means "The quality of being dimensional," and refers to geometrical dimensions, generally speaking, not to realms. Given that the same comic already makes mention of higher dimensions, it should be fairly standard to assume that the term that by default refers to spatial geometry is referring to spatial geometry.

It should be, but we are already deviating from linguistic convention with phrases like "any lone dimensionality." Even the guidebook that addresses this event simply says "any lone dimension."

The realms being "Oceans of higher dimensions" (Meaning the dimensions are things composing them) already implies as much, alongside the fact that they are depicted as containing the normal universe and perceiving it as a "tiny shell" (Said universe being often described as infinite). I also don't get what you mean in that last part. What is a "normal" layer of heaven?

When I say a normal layer, I mean one that isn't a higher infinity. Higher dimensions can be used to refer to places like Heaven in a way that is not a higher infinity, and if there are multiple layers in Heaven, I am particularly wary of interpreting each of them as higher infinities without fairly concrete proof.

My point is that something that has power corresponding to aleph-2 is Low 1-A, due to everything from 1-dimensional space to infinite-dimensional space being included in aleph-1 (It all has the same cardinality, so skipping to aleph-2 is skipping to a size larger than all of it).

Is it currently accepted on the wiki that aleph-2 is Low 1-A? The basis that "greater than infinity" immediately skyrockets to Tier 1 due to geometric dimensions having the same cardinality strikes me as extremely far-fetched.

 

[Deagonx]

To whom it may concern, I've given Gasper a temporary thread ban as he's commented multiple times without permission since this was moved to the staff forum, and I don't think it's productive to have him sniping each comment he dislikes with low-effort jabs amidst staff members attempting to have a thorough discussion, and it just serves to inject unneeded tension and hostility into the thread.

 

[ByAsura]

He is right, though.

Low 1-A is Aleph 1.

1-A is Aleph 2.

Edit: Not disagreeing with the ban, btw.

 

[Deagonx]

He is right, though.

Low 1-A is Aleph 1.

1-A is Aleph 2.

Yeah, I don't deny the typo, but the rest of the comment was what I found counter-productive.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx seems to make good points above. Let's wait and see if @DontTalkDT finds the suggested tiers here reliable.

 

[Veronica]

A 3-A to Low 2-C Spectrum seems reasonable if she has feat of that scale, yes, but it is derailing, and this is a staff forum thread.

In the recent issue is again confirmed she is destroying another universe with here at the center.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Did she destroy the entire space-time continuum or just the physical planets and stars within it?

 

[LordTracer]

Y’all, that’s not relevant to this thread. Take it to the Marvel Discussion Thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, agreed.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't agree. Especially when viewing both statements in combination. Despite his uncontainable size, Earth is being described as a foothold. Then TLT says that despite his omnivorous nature, and the fact that he can't be content, he must content himself on other vistas.

Viewed within the full context of the story and the information we are given, I think this again goes back to the psychic corruption spreading, thats the foothold, thats what he must do on "other vistas" to content himself, despite his omnivorous nature.

I will leave this topic at this, since we have already discussed it thoroughly elsewhere: I just can't personally buy in to the idea that these statements are referring to spatial dimensionality, I don't believe it is the best way to interpret the evidence we have.

You can talk about two things in the same sentence, especially given that the Living Tribunal prefaces his comment on Slorioth's omnivorous nature with a "...And," indicating a separative clause on the phrase. Earth is indeed described as being a "foothold" for him, yes, but one that only an infinitesimal sliver of him can actually step in, whereas the dimensionality statements refer to the whole of him, so refer to the above: If it was talking about his expansion, he'd be able to enter the Earth Dimension just fine, but would eventually get too big for it. This is not the case, since he is already bigger than it from the start.

I'm fine with ending that branch of the discussion here, though. Just trying to make myself as clear as possible.

It should be, but we are already deviating from linguistic convention with phrases like "any lone dimensionality." Even the guidebook that addresses this event simply says "any lone dimension."

We aren't, no. Referring to multiple dimensionalities, as well as single ones, is linguistically perfectly coherent. "4-dimensionaity" for instance is the quality of being 4-dimensional, 5-dimensionality the quality of being 5-dimensional, and so on. Guidebooks are also generally speaking a lower tier of evidence than the comic itself, and I already explained why interpreting it the way you are (As referring to Slorioth's expansion) doesn't really work.

When I say a normal layer, I mean one that isn't a higher infinity. Higher dimensions can be used to refer to places like Heaven in a way that is not a higher infinity, and if there are multiple layers in Heaven, I am particularly wary of interpreting each of them as higher infinities without fairly concrete proof.

Like I said, the "higher dimensions" here are referring to things that make up a part of a place, not to places themselves. The statement is repeating itself and using anaphora to describe the same thing in various different ways, so a "Celestial pagoda," a "sedimentary layer of heaven," and an "ocean of higher dimensions" are all the same thing here. Unless you want to say the layers of heaven have their own layers of heaven inside of them (Which is fairly easily amended by Occam's Razor: Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity), I don't see why you're warry.

Not to mention that, as said, these layers themselves are described as dwarfing the universe, which is described as being infinite in a number of occasions, namely:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-n09hmvTe...ESa8kW9Rezwk6c8kLkzIQo3SxYQCLcB/s0/191_04.jpg - Silver Surfer Vol. 8 #7

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9GvotVfvi...5w0wcX0qK1oeE6Xgyjs_7Y6fleD2S1Jkb5kjPiwOKU=s0 - Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #50

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GZ8hOafg7...an69nCvDlD2eFwuMZH6siXkbwmkTQizlrr0uVK8Mqu=s0 - Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #77

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kz2rXkkAB1Y/Vne0bbPBP3I/AAAAAAAAPvg/hz2WXE_x4GA/s0-Ic42/RCO012.jpg - Journey into Mystery Vol. 1 #108

And many more. So that, combined with the mention of higher dimensions, makes me fairly comfortable in saying those layers are indeed higher infinities.

Is it currently accepted on the wiki that aleph-2 is Low 1-A? The basis that "greater than infinity" immediately skyrockets to Tier 1 due to geometric dimensions having the same cardinality strikes me as extremely far-fetched.

It is, yes. To quote the FAQ:

However, the same does not necessarily apply when approaching sets of higher cardinalities than this (Such as P(P(ℵ0)), the power set of the power set of aleph-0), as they would be strictly bigger than all of the spaces mentioned above, by all rigorous notions of size, regardless of what their elements are. From this point and onwards, all such sets are Low 1-A at minimum.

So, an aleph-2 amount of anything is Low 1-A, regardless of what the set actually consists of. You can pretty easily visualize why that is the case, too: Adding a dimension to a space is just a matter of multiplying it by itself (2-D space for instance, which is R^2, is the 1-D number line multiplied by itself), adjoining other points to it to make a set with a larger volume. Cardinality-wise, however, the amount of points in a n-dimensional space remains the same, up until a space with countably infinite dimensions. So, if you have aleph-2 points, you have a space that's inherently larger than all of that.

 

[Deagonx]

"4-dimensionaity" for instance is the quality of being 4-dimensional

Logically though this would extend to an infinite dimensionality if we took this approach, so that can't be what is meant. Alternatively it would refer to 1-dimensionality, which is also illogical in the context in which it was said.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-n09hmvTe...ESa8kW9Rezwk6c8kLkzIQo3SxYQCLcB/s0/191_04.jpg - Silver Surfer Vol. 8 #7

Do the qualities of being "infinite" and "ever-expanding" not contradict each other?

And many more. So that, combined with the mention of higher dimensions, makes me fairly comfortable in saying those layers are indeed higher infinities.

I could be persuaded that these higher dimensions are above Earth as a higher infinity, but I do not believe we have enough evidence to suggest each layer is an additional higher infinity.

So, an aleph-2 amount of anything is Low 1-A, regardless of what the set actually consists of. You can pretty easily visualize why that is the case, too: Adding a dimension to a space is just a matter of multiplying it by itself (2-D space for instance, which is R^2, is the 1-D number line multiplied by itself), adjoining other points to it to make a set with a larger volume. Cardinality-wise, however, the amount of points in a n-dimensional space remains the same, up until a space with countably infinite dimensions. So, if you have aleph-2 points, you have a space that's inherently larger than all of that.

I am wary of using the word transfinite as a shortcut to such high tiers, but if that is the standard, then it would be a matter for a different thread.

 

[Antvasima]

I am wary of using the word transfinite as a shortcut to such high tiers, but if that is the standard, then it would be a matter for a different thread.

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Logically though this would extend to an infinite dimensionality if we took this approach, so that can't be what is meant. Alternatively it would refer to 1-dimensionality, which is also illogical in the context in which it was said.

Not inherently, no. A "lone dimensionality," in this case, can't contain Slorioth because he is pan-dimensional (Pan ot course meaning "all," opposite of "single."), which would mean he can't be contained in a single dimensional level by virtue of extending into all of them by nature. If a verse had 8 dimensions, something that is pan-dimensional in that sense of the world would be 8-dimensional. I might also add that it would not possibly refer to 1-dimensionality; don't know how you'd come to that conclusion.

And of course, I am arguing that, since Slorioth is pan-dimensional in that sense of the word, he should extend over infinite-dimensional space as well, due to the other infinite-dimensional statements in the verse.

Do the qualities of being "infinite" and "ever-expanding" not contradict each other?

No, because the expansion of the universe simply means that the distances between objects in it are increasing (i.e Space is being stretched, so to speak). That can happen whether the universe is finite or infinite.

I could be persuaded that these higher dimensions are above Earth as a higher infinity, but I do not believe we have enough evidence to suggest each layer is an additional higher infinity.

That sounds pedantic. The layers are described as hierarchical and "ever-increasing," so clearly they encompass each other the same way the first upper layer of heaven encompasses the Earth Dimension.

I am wary of using the word transfinite as a shortcut to such high tiers, but if that is the standard, then it would be a matter for a different thread.

It's not really solely the use of the term, but rather the context in which the statement is made.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I do not think Marvel should be treated differently from DC considering they are only slightly more consistent.

They would still make ridiculously big cosmological changes like 16 Dimensional Dark Dimension from issue to issue.

Giving it the same fixed cosmological setting like rating a manga or a video game seems doomed to failure.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think Marvel should be treated differently from DC considering they are only slightly more consistent.

They would still make ridiculously big cosmological changes like 16 Dimensional Dark Dimension from issue to issue.

Giving it the same fixed cosmological setting like rating a manga or a video game seems doomed to failure.

I technically agree with this, but Ultima seems to have made a serious effort to try to tie it all together into a semi-coherent pattern that Marvel Comics' current editorial staff themselves have likely never considered, but that may still be useful for our purposes.

The problem is that he seems to be going for the most extreme upwards interpretation imaginable, which isn't really any better/more reliable than going for the most extreme downwards interpretation imaginable, so I would have much preferred if he had tried to find a much more balanced and consistent interpretation.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, given that you made a very valid point, I restored your post that you removed here previously, but that is definitely not an invitation for any non-staff spam in this thread. If you want to make single crucially relevant posts here, please contact myself about it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I technically agree with this, but Ultima seems to have made a serious effort to try to tie it all together into a semi-coherent pattern that Marvel Comics' current editorial staff themselves have likely never considered, but that may still be useful for our purposes.

The problem is that he seems to be going for the most extreme upwards interpretation imaginable, which isn't really any better/more reliaboe than going for the most extreme downwards interpretation imaginable, so I would have much preferred if he had tried to find a much more balanced and consistent interpretation.

Quite honestly I'd say the things i've reunited aren't exactly "the most extreme upwards interpretation" imaginable. Certainly I could go a lot further. I don't think believing Eternity is higher than Low 2-C necessarily means I'm taking the highest possible end for those characters.

(And for the matter the prospect of a Marvel Cosmology Split is best discussed somewhere else)

 

[Excellence616]

And for the matter the prospect of a Marvel Cosmology Split is best discussed somewhere else

Don't worry. We have a thread for that already.

 

[ByAsura]

I think we're a bit too focused on Slorioth here.

We have the evidence for Subspace (since things beyond Subspace are still within Multiversal Eternity, meaning the quote refers to Universal Eternity by default), anyway, and The Crossroads is one of the realms that The Beyonder found while wandering the infinite number of outlying dimensions in the universe (alongside Asgard and the Microverse, which is a parallel dimension).

I don't see how this is that controversial, unless we decide to dump all of our infinite dimension stuff in general.

By the way, when I said 'I'm not entirely comfortable with Universal Eternities transcending subspace', I was misremembering Subspace as the The Neutral Zone.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

We have the evidence for Subspace (since things beyond Subspace are still within Multiversal Eternity, meaning the quote refers to Universal Eternity by default), anyway, and The Crossroads is one of the realms that The Beyonder found while wandering the infinite number of outlying dimensions in the universe (alongside Asgard and the Microverse, which is a parallel dimension).

I should note that the Crossroads that the Beyonder walked through and the Crossroads of Infinity are different things. The former is largely just a realm created by the Elder Gods (Gaea, Chthon and Set) for the sake of having a neutral meeting ground between them, and the latter is a construct created by the Sixth Cosmos.

Though, nevertheless, I think the evidence for Subspace being inside of Eternity is fairly clear as is, yes, given the scans about Hyperstorm and the already-mentioned Heroes Reborn. Not to mention the current writings treating the Superflow as the space between Earths while simultaneously acknowledging Subspace / the Crossroads as something that exists, which leaves the interpretation of Subspace as the realm between the different realms contained inside a single Eternity as the only reasonable one.

By the way, when I said 'I'm not entirely comfortable with Universal Eternities transcending subspace', I was misremembering Subspace as the The Neutral Zone.

Oh, lol, yeah, those two aren't the same at all. The Neutral Zone is the boundary of the entire omniverse.

 

[ByAsura]

I thought the nexus it was attached to was shown to be the same as the Crossroads of Infinity in a Fantastic Four comic that's part of Secret Wars II, but I guess I'm misremembering.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

On the topic of the other points presented in this thread: I'm surprised that not even the current opposition has brought up any potential concerns they have with the Cosmic Cubes. I'd think that'd be one of the more controversial bits in the OP.

 

[ByAsura]

I think it's because that's ruined away with the Cosmic Egg, which is scaled to Dormammu, being superior to 30 Cubes.

Also, I found some more stuff.

The First Firmament is described as higher reality that's digesting them. Normally, this would mean nothing, but all realities were combined here and the Superflow was abolished during that timeframe. Due to High Evolutionary saying 'we're' and the context surrounding the situation, I doubt he's just referring to their normal continuum in a vacuum.

The Ultimates were able to chain The First Firmament without Eternity's help.

Basically, the embodiments of the Cosmos >> what they embody.