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Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

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I agree, everything seems to make sense.
 
Setsuna_tenma said:
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Here

Robo said:
i agree with this but

i thought we were having a marvel cosmology split??
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There is limited proof to support the notion that Marvel deserves as heavy as a split as DC's. Maybe i just haven't seen enough.

It is definitely important to consider how we handle author interpretations. But, evidence suggests that most editor eras have many evidence of higher dimensions in support of the infinite dimensional statements of the eras before and after them, and honestly are not necessarily at odds with one another.

Hell, DC's split with Neil Gaiman's cosmology is pretty damn harsh from what i have seen, considering the fact that there is evidence that Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey made contributions to Snyder's verse and were confirmed to have worked together on Dream in Metal. The reasons provided for the split between Gaiman and Snyder's cosmologies are not very strong anyways ngl and ignore very blatant established things between these cosmologies.
 
Gasper said:
For literally seeing them as dream
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I was also trying to ask in conjunction with how much higher they scale. I agree with the ratings but I just needed to see where he was going to scale the true form.

I don't know why I even said that because I clearly knew the answer.
 
One unrelated question, do you guys think Devine Creator's dream is 1-A+? If eternity is low 1-A then a single dream would be one layer into 1-A. Devine Creator would then be High 1-A and that would also amp multi eternity to High 1-A.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
They're just examples. People who are inferior to Eternity and co. but still around the same level of existence will scale to them just the same (So, Lord Chaos, Master Order, the Universal Phoenix Force, and so on)
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Where would you scale Megaverses? 2-A or High 1-B?
 
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention this. In here, Eternity also says that the form that Doctor Strange interacts with and perceives is just an infinitesimal part of himself, which is another thing establishing the difference in scope between the true Abstracts and their M-Bodies.

I also forgot this other piece of evidence showing that the mystical dimensions adjacent to the Earth Dimension are also encompassed by the Abstracts: Here, Dormammu and Odin are having a chess match in Asgard, and each move they make influences the equilibrium between chaos and order in that way causes Lord Chaos and Master Order to change sizes. This being something we see elsewhere is tied to their nature; if chaos and order are in perfect balance, they are equal in size. If chaos is dominating the universe, Lord Chaos grows and Master Order shrinks, while if order is dominating, the opposite happens.

So, if Odin and Dormammu playing chess was affecting the balance between the Chaos and Order of Earth-616 while in Asgard, then clearly Asgard is in their domain as well.
 
Gasper said:
One unrelated question, do you guys think Devine Creator's dream is 1-A+? If eternity is low 1-A then a single dream would be one layer into 1-A. Devine Creator would then be High 1-A and that would also amp multi eternity to High 1-A.
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Those questions are for Part 2.

Gasper said:
Where would you scale Megaverses? 2-A or High 1-B?
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A "Megaverse" in old comics was just a collection of multiverses, no? If so, they'd probably be Low 1-A, since a single Eternity is already at that level.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Those questions are for Part 2.


A "Megaverse" in old comics was just a collection of multiverses, no? If so, they'd probably be Low 1-A, since a single Eternity is already at that level.
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Yes, also, it's interesting that in one comic it says there are infinite multiverses as well. And we know this can't be talking about multi eternity because there are only 10 of them currently.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention this. In here, Eternity also says that the form that Doctor Strange interacts with and perceives is just an infinitesimal part of himself, which is another thing establishing the difference in scope between the true Abstracts and their M-Bodies.

I also forgot this other piece of evidence showing that the mystical dimensions adjacent to the Earth Dimension are also encompassed by the Abstracts: Here, Dormammu and Odin are having a chess match in Asgard, and each move they make influences the equilibrium between chaos and order in that way causes Lord Chaos and Master Order to change sizes. This being something we see elsewhere is tied to their nature; if chaos and order are in perfect balance, they are equal in size. If chaos is dominating the universe, Lord Chaos grows and Master Order shrinks, while if order is dominating, the opposite happens.

So, if Odin and Dormammu playing chess was affecting the balance between the Chaos and Order of Earth-616 while in Asgard, then clearly Asgard is in their domain as well.
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Asgardians also have a higher "true form" that was stated to be "formless" and people just perceive them as superhero's because of collective unconscious.
 
Gasper said:
Yes, also, it's interesting that in one comic it says there are infinite multiverses as well. And we know this can't be talking about multi eternity because there are only 10 of them currently.
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Yeah, Time Runs Out also had a tidbit saying there are multiple multiverses floating around in the Superflow.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
One possible counterargument one might try to use is to be found in these scans, which state that man's universe has only 3 spatial dimensions and lists other realms with varying dimensionalities as universes apart from it. However, it should be noted that they are not necessarily talking about the earth dimension and the realms adjacent to it as being in the domains of separate Eternities, since, as you can see, it lists Nightmare's Realm, Asgard and the Dark Dimension among these different universes, even though it is well-established that they are all inside of Eternity. And that's of course not to mention the fact that Eternity's whole domain having only 3 spatial dimensions is very inconsistent, so the above interpretation is undoubtedly the more correct one either way.
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Before I forget this again, also. I already anticipate two possible attempts at a rebuttal to the OP, so, let me tackle them:

The first would come from this scan, from Fantastic Four Annual #27, which shows the Living Tribunal, Eternity and the other two dudes chilling in a 16-dimensional domain. The argument here would be that this would imply the Living Tribunal, the highest member of the Cosmic Hierarchy, is at most 16-D due to residing in a domain that large.

Using this panel is untenable for one big reason, namely the fact that this story was retconned. As you can see there, that scene has the Living Tribunal explain that the creation of the Cosmic Cubes was an experiment conducted by himself, Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order, where they opened fissures to the universe of the Beyonders so small amounts of its energies could seep through and find vessels (One of those being the Molecule Man). This was replaced by the explanation given in Time Runs Out, where it turned out that the Molecule Man was created by the Beyonders themselves as a tool to destroy the multiverse, with no involvement whatsoever from the Abstracts.

With that in mind, we can tell that the scene above wasn't even subject to a "soft" retcon, like Secret Wars I and II were, it was properly erased from the continuity. It never happened to begin with. Moreover, even if you used the logic of "Just because this detail was retconned, doesn't mean the 16-D statement was," that'd give me even more justification to apply the Beyonder's High 1-B statement to his post-retcon interpretation, since that line of reasoning applies to it as well. So: Either the 16-D scan is discarded wholesale, or it's allowed on a technicality (One that's pretty flimsy compared to the Beyonder's case, as I explained) and even then is ultimately outnumbered by the statements I showed in the OP.

The second would come from this scan, where Kubik seems to imply that there is a "4th dimensional space-time barrier" surrounding the realm of the Beyonders, implying even they are just 4-D in the end.

Except this one is massively, massively out of context: As you can see in the full scene, the context was that Kubik and Kosmos were, by going "outside" the Beyonders' universe, just re-entering the regular universe, starting from its lowest levels. The lesson here being that scale is an illusion, and that the highest plane of existence ultimately just loops back into the lowest one. So Kubik and Kosmos were crossing a 4-D spacetime barrier not because the universe of the Beyonders is 4-D, but because they were coming back to the normal world.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Before I forget this again, also. I already anticipate two possible attempts at a rebuttal to the OP, so, let me tackle them:

The first would come from this scan, from Fantastic Four Annual #27, which shows the Living Tribunal, Eternity and the other two dudes chilling in a 16-dimensional domain. The argument here would be that this would imply the Living Tribunal, the highest member of the Cosmic Hierarchy, is at most 16-D due to residing in a domain that large.

Using this panel is untenable for one big reason, namely the fact that this story was retconned. As you can see there, that scene has the Living Tribunal explain that the creation of the Cosmic Cubes was an experiment conducted by himself, Eternity, Lord Chaos and Master Order, where they opened fissures to the universe of the Beyonders so small amounts of its energies could seep through and find vessels (One of those being the Molecule Man). This was replaced by the explanation given in Time Runs Out, where it turned out that the Molecule Man was created by the Beyonders themselves as a tool to destroy the multiverse, with no involvement whatsoever from the Abstracts.

With that in mind, we can tell that the scene above wasn't even subject to a "soft" retcon, like Secret Wars I and II were, it was properly erased from the continuity. It never happened to begin with. Moreover, even if you used the logic of "Just because this detail was retconned, doesn't mean the 16-D statement was," that'd give me even more justification to apply the Beyonder's High 1-B statement to his post-retcon interpretation, since that line of reasoning applies to it as well. So: Either the 16-D scan is discarded wholesale, or it's allowed on a technicality (One that's pretty flimsy compared to the Beyonder's case, as I explained) and even then is ultimately outnumbered by the statements I showed in the OP.

The second would come from this scan, where Kubik seems to imply that there is a "4th dimensional space-time barrier" surrounding the realm of the Beyonders, implying even they are just 4-D in the end.

Except this one is massively, massively out of context: As you can see in the full scene, the context was that Kubik and Kosmos were, by going "outside" the Beyonders' universe, just re-entering the regular universe, starting from its lowest levels. The lesson here being that scale is an illusion, and that the highest plane of existence ultimately just loops back into the lowest one. So Kubik and Kosmos were crossing a 4-D spacetime barrier not because the universe of the Beyonders is 4-D, but because they were coming back to the normal world.
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Not to mention the first scan could be happening just above the regular universe which as stated in the OP is 3-D.
 
There is also This scan talking about how two parallel universes are inaccessible to each other.

Also, while looking back at this This, i don't particularly see what the writer got wrong about set theory. If it is "there are twice as many numbers as there is odd numbers" isn't talking about one infinity only being twice bigger that the lower one.
 
Gasper said:
There is also This scan talking about how two parallel universes are inaccessible to each other.

Also, while looking back at this This, i don't particularly see what the writer got wrong about set theory. If it is "there are twice as many numbers as there is odd numbers" isn't talking about one infinity only being twice bigger that the lower one.
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The problem is that the example fails in that they aren't. It's like, a very wrong depiction of how the transfinite numbers work. It does work as like, if someone doesn't want to really explain the thought process of how it works, most people wouldn't know that it was wrong, but understand the general "idea" of it. And I think that is mostly what it matters, if it's enough to someone that doesn't understand much to at leat get an "idea" of what it is, then it's easy to understand why the mistake was made.
 
Executor_N0 said:
The problem is that the example fails in that they aren't. It's like, a very wrong depiction of how the transfinite numbers work. It does work as like, if someone doesn't want to really explain the thought process of how it works, most people wouldn't know that it was wrong, but understand the general "idea" of it. And I think that is mostly what it matters, if it's enough to someone that doesn't understand much to at leat get an "idea" of what it is, then it's easy to understand why the mistake was made.
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You can argue this was a mistake on kubic's side and not how set theory actually works in marvel.
 
I would say that it's more just a mistake of the writers trying to explain something that they really don't understand. So it could be something that we could just ignore their explanation and use more as a guide to say "this idea exists there, but they don't have an idea of how to say it". Like when they calculate something in the comics or use a concept while being wrong.
 
Gasper said:
There is also This scan talking about how two parallel universes are inaccessible to each other.

Also, while looking back at this This, i don't particularly see what the writer got wrong about set theory. If it is "there are twice as many numbers as there is odd numbers" isn't talking about one infinity only being twice bigger that the lower one.
Click to expand...
Executor_N0 said:
The problem is that the example fails in that they aren't. It's like, a very wrong depiction of how the transfinite numbers work. It does work as like, if someone doesn't want to really explain the thought process of how it works, most people wouldn't know that it was wrong, but understand the general "idea" of it. And I think that is mostly what it matters, if it's enough to someone that doesn't understand much to at leat get an "idea" of what it is, then it's easy to understand why the mistake was made.
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Actually this is talking about the qualitative difference between dimensions of hyperspace, not about transfinite numbers.
 
Alonik said:
Actually this is talking about the qualitative difference between dimensions of hyperspace, not about transfinite numbers.
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Are you talking about my first scan?
If so, i am aware yes. I was just adding another scan to support universes being unreasonable to the others which Ultima brought up in the OP.
 
Executor_N0 said:
I would say that it's more just a mistake of the writers trying to explain something that they really don't understand. So it could be something that we could just ignore their explanation and use more as a guide to say "this idea exists there, but they don't have an idea of how to say it". Like when they calculate something in the comics or use a concept while being wrong.
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Well, as Ultima said, we can't restrict those restrictions to all scans implying alephs. There are a lot of scans to support infinite aleph hierarchy within multiverse.
 
I'm not saying that to not use them, in fact, what I'm saying is that it would even be fine to use the ones with the "wrong explanation" because we can understand why they are wrong and what they are "trying to say" with it.
 
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