• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeTwo @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @Marvel_Champion_07 @Excel616 @Immortalgodd @LephyrTheRevanchist @ByAsura @VeryGoofyToddler

Would you be willing to evaluate this please? To me, giving this high ratings for skyfathers and universal abstract entities seems far too inconsistent in relation to the scale that they are almost consistently portrayed at.
Click to expand...
Odin consistently shakes the multiverse and was equal to dormammu who stalemated eternity.
 
I also don't think it's inconsistent:

  • Marvel consistently talks about higher-dimensional states when it comes to the Marvel Cosmology throughout practically all of it's cosmology depictions, be it in the comics or guidebooks that encompass and reference several continuities, which would scale to the Universal Abstracts for embodying totality as mentioned in the OP. Heck Authors in quite a few occassions interconnect cosmologies between one another which one of them at least depicted higher-dimensions in some regard.
  • Celestials are described as higher-dimensional on far more than a few depictions,
  • Heck the main cosmic entities are all described to enact on transfinite levels of existence like 3 separate instances in 3 separate continuities.
 
OP seems fine, nice work!

This also upgrades people like Classic Dormammu, the Infinity Gauntlet, and God-Emperor Doom to High 1-B, right?

Especially Classic Dormammu, since he has a lot of Eternity-level Scaling.

1. Implied to have killed The Trinity of Ashes and Slorioth, who rival the Vishanti, and threaten Eternity just by existing, respectively.

2. One-shot Giraud, a host to the Phoenix Force who wounded Eternity.

3. Although he was inferior, his weakest incarnation was able to hold his own against Eternity, with the clash threatening to destroy them both.

4. Is far stronger than Strange with prep, who once matched Adam Warlock with the IG (albeit temporarily).
Gasper said:
Odin consistently shakes the multiverse and was equal to dormammu who stalemated eternity.
Click to expand...
EHHHHH...

Dormammu scales above all the Celestials, who clapped a heavily amped Destroyer Odin.

Speaking of the Celestials, does this CRT make them destroying the First Firmament in the past no longer an outlier?
 
Neutral on the Skyfather stuff. But I'm pretty sure we can just not remotely scale them at all considering Galactus' fight with Mephisto (who has as many statements about being Skyfather level) and the combined Skyfathers getting stomped by Celestials, who are typically presented as below M-Bodies by a significant degree.

Anyway, I sort of agree with this, but I lean more towards much more towards neutral because I'm not entirely comfortable with Universal Eternities transcending subspace.

It's worth noting that a Skrull's space-time warp is stated to pass through infinite dimensions (in an obviously spatio-temporal context) in order to get from point a to b. This isn't an argument, just more infinite-d stuff.
 
Last edited:
Eseseso said:
OP seems fine, nice work!

This also upgrades people like Classic Dormammu, the Infinity Gauntlet, and God-Emperor Doom to High 1-B, right?

Especially Classic Dormammu, since he has a lot of Eternity-level Scaling.

1. Implied to have killed The Trinity of Ashes and Slorioth, who rival the Vishanti, and threaten Eternity just by existing, respectively.

2. One-shot Giraud, a host to the Phoenix Force who wounded Eternity.

3. Although he was inferior, his weakest incarnation was able to hold his own against Eternity, with the clash threatening to destroy them both.

4. Is far stronger than Strange with prep, who once matched Adam Warlock with the IG (albeit temporarily).

EHHHHH...

Dormammu scales above all the Celestials, who clapped a heavily amped Destroyer Odin.

Speaking of the Celestials, does this CRT make them destroying the First Firmament in the past no longer an outlier?
Click to expand...
That was never an outlier never mind that the first firmament is not even High 1-B.

Celestials has M bodies.
 
Eseseso said:
OP seems fine, nice work!

This also upgrades people like Classic Dormammu, the Infinity Gauntlet, and God-Emperor Doom to High 1-B, right?

Especially Classic Dormammu, since he has a lot of Eternity-level Scaling.

1. Implied to have killed The Trinity of Ashes and Slorioth, who rival the Vishanti, and threaten Eternity just by existing, respectively.

2. One-shot Giraud, a host to the Phoenix Force who wounded Eternity.

3. Although he was inferior, his weakest incarnation was able to hold his own against Eternity, with the clash threatening to destroy them both.

4. Is far stronger than Strange with prep, who once matched Adam Warlock with the IG (albeit temporarily).

EHHHHH...

Dormammu scales above all the Celestials, who clapped a heavily amped Destroyer Odin.

Speaking of the Celestials, does this CRT make them destroying the First Firmament in the past no longer an outlier?
Click to expand...
  • Classic Dormammu would be upgraded yes.
  • Uh as mentioned in the OP the Slorioth aren't scaling to Eternity explicitly but they have their own High 1-B stuff to scale to
  • I do believe that even if The Skyfathers don't get upgraded they should upscale to the Cosmic Cubes considering Kubik viewing Mephisto as a significant threat to him and Cosmos, and Odin is genuinely in Mephisto's tier
 
ByAsura said:
Neutral on the Skyfather stuff. But I'm pretty sure we can just not remotely scale them at all considering Galactus' fight with Mephisto (who has as many statements about being Skyfather level) and the combined Skyfathers getting stomped by Celestials, who are typically presented as below M-Bodies by a significant degree.

Anyway, I sort of agree with this.

It's worth noting that a Skrull's space-time warp is stated to pass through infinite dimensions (in an obviously spatio-temporal context) in order to get from point a to b.
Click to expand...
Nah, Celestials are not that much stronger than skyfathers at all. Odin still managed to damage them
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
I also don't think it's inconsistent:

  • Marvel consistently talks about higher-dimensional states when it comes to the Marvel Cosmology throughout practically all of it's cosmology depictions, be it in the comics or guidebooks that encompass and reference several continuities, which would scale to the Universal Abstracts for embodying totality as mentioned in the OP. Heck Authors in quite a few occassions interconnect cosmologies between one another which one of them at least depicted higher-dimensions in some regard.
  • Celestials are described as higher-dimensional on far more than a few depictions,
  • Heck the main cosmic entities are all described to enact on transfinite levels of existence like 3 separate instances in 3 separate continuities.
Click to expand...
Celestials are also described as platonic forms as well.
 
Well, let's wait for DontTalk to evaluate if the reasoning seems accurate.
 
Eseseso said:
This also upgrades people like Classic Dormammu, the Infinity Gauntlet, and God-Emperor Doom to High 1-B, right?
Click to expand...
Low 1-A, more specifically. For the Infinity Gauntlet, there is a good argument to be made for it being flat-out 1-A, seeing as Adam Warlock's potential battle with the Living Tribunal's M-Body was going to wreck the Dimension of Manifestations, which is stated often to encompass and transcend the multiverse. That said, stuff like Thanos passing out after he sealed Eternity and the Infinity Stones breaking from the strain of keeping a single universe from colliding with Earth-616 may keep it at Low 1-A anyway.

Eseseso said:
Speaking of the Celestials, does this CRT make them destroying the First Firmament in the past no longer an outlier?
Click to expand...
Nah. It's not like the Universal Abstracts are now comparable to the Omniversal ones. The latter just heavily upscale from all the above. The Celestials also shattered the First Firmament through special weapons and not on their own power, so that feat isn't an outlier anyway.
 
Well, Odin used his own power + that of all other Asgardians except for Thor + the Destroyer + the Odinsword to cut the arm off a Celestial.
 
Odin in the Destroyer armor did cut off one of the Celestial’s arms (Nezarr the Calculator iirc), but otherwise, it was abundantly clear that the Celestials were vastly stronger than him. Iirc, the Odinsword was only able to pierce Arishem because he let it pierce him so he could analyze it.
 
Anyway, given how extremely controversial this revision is, it should preferably be a staff only thread except for the members that I invited here earlier to avoid massive amounts of spam.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, Odin used his own power + that of all other Asgardians except for Thor + the Destroyer + the Odinsword to cut the arm off a Celestial.
Click to expand...
That's fair. I also just remembered that mephisto is on odin's tier and was absolutely nothing to kubic. Kubic himself is transfinite levels below celestials. So Yeah, they shouldn't really scale
 
LordTracer said:
Odin in the Destroyer armor did cut off one of the Celestial’s arms (Nezarr the Calculator iirc), but otherwise, it was abundantly clear that the Celestials were vastly stronger than him. Iirc, the Odinsword was only able to pierce Arishem because he let it pierce him so he could analyze it.
Click to expand...
No, it was analyzed afterwards, but as far as I could tell the Odinsword pierced Nezarr through raw power. Thor also threw it right through a Celestial and withstood their force-blasts in the same story if I remember correctly.
 
Well, I haven't had the time to read it all, but Celestials, skyfathers, universes, and universal cosmic entities have repeatedly been threatened by regular powerful superheroes and supervillains, and it seems very extreme to assume that writers in general refer to Low 1-A or 1-A structures when referring to regular universes.

As such, I think that perceiving any such mentions as larger sections of the multiverse seems much more reasonable. Especially given that our current 1-A scaling for the Marvel multiverse explicitly hinges on a scan from a Doctor Strange comic book in which regular universes were stated to be 3-dimensional.
 
Last edited:
Antvasima said:
Well, I haven't had the time to read it, but Celestials, skyfathers, and universal cosmic entities have repeatedly been threatened by regular powerful superheroes and supervillains, and it seems very extreme to assume that writers in general refer to Low 1-A structures when referring to regular universes.
Click to expand...
You meant M bodies, right?
Also, characters are almost always amped by somekind of power.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I haven't had the time to read it, but Celestials, skyfathers, universes, and universal cosmic entities have repeatedly been threatened by regular powerful superheroes and supervillains, and it seems very extreme to assume that writers in general refer to Low 1-A or 1-A structures when referring to regular universes.
Click to expand...
So a regular superhero being 3-A is fine, but switch the 3 to 1 and suddenly it's a problem???
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I haven't had the time to read it, but Celestials, skyfathers, and universal cosmic entities have repeatedly been threatened by regular powerful superheroes and supervillains, and it seems very extreme to assume that writers in general refer to Low 1-A structures when referring to regular universes.
Click to expand...
Well, as said, I'm specifically avoiding that. Without more context, we are to assume "universe" refers to the Earth Dimension, which is just Low 2-C. Universe-affecting feats will only be Low 1-A if it's made explicit that the Abstracts are being affected.

I also don't know of many instances where the Abstracts are threatened by run-of-the-mill superheroes and villains, also. If those examples exist, then they're either outliers or the heroes are somehow amped. The cosmics have always been very much above the regular denizens of Earth-616 in the pecking order.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Eseseso
  • Locked
1-A Upgrade for the Astral Plane and the Abstracts (Marvel Comics)
2
Replies
71
Views
7K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Ultima_Reality
  • Locked
Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)
12 13 14
Replies
535
Views
49K
Antvasima
Antvasima
DontTalkDT
Context is always important - Changing a bad formulation of the Tiering System
Replies
17
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Fixxed
  • Locked
Bigger infinity should be uncountable infinity
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Eseseso
  • Locked
Some Minor Marvel Comics Revisions
Replies
17
Views
1K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Back
Top