- 5,460
- 2,302
All celestials we see are M bodies minus probably the ones who stand with M bodies of the abstracts.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)
- Thread starter Ultima_Reality
- Start date
- Status
- 167,690
- 76,282
Please reread my previous post above, as I updated it.
However, what is the harm in considering what you refer to in such massive contexts as Low 1-A or 1-A as being larger sections of the multiverse instead of single universes? It seems like a much more logical fit that avoids confusion and massive contradictions.
- 18,551
- 12,861
Ok, so that upgrades Doom's maximum prep/technology/absorption to High 1-B/Low 1-A.
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #124
Your update seemed to have been just a conclusion, and not a line of reasoning in and of itself, so, there really is nothing to respond to.
The harm, also, is that the High 1-B statements all scale back to the Universal Abstracts in some way or another (Slorioth and the Cosmic Cubes are below Universal Eternity for instance). And from what I see there are no confusions or contradictions. I've already addressed all the potential inconsistencies.
- 167,690
- 76,282
Anyway, I have to handle my regular wiki patrolling work now in order to get sufficient sleep.
Everybody please remember that this is still a staff only thread except for the members I called for earlier, that you should avoid any spam, and wait for DontTalk to check if the scaling here seems warranted and logical.
Everybody please remember that this is still a staff only thread except for the members I called for earlier, that you should avoid any spam, and wait for DontTalk to check if the scaling here seems warranted and logical.
- 167,690
- 76,282
It seems to contradict Marvel Comics' own most explicit explanations for the scale of its individual universes, which is what we currently use for our scaling, and is much more explicit/reliable than personal speculation by fitting together many different writers that usually have no idea of what the others have established.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence1.jpg
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence3.jpg
- 5,460
- 2,302
Eternity is 616 universe which contains infinite other regular universes within itself. Nothing is contradicted.
Universes = low 2-C
Eternity = Low 1-A
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #129
I already addressed this:
I might note, also:
Quasar Vol. 1 #27 - June 11, 1991
Children of the Voyager #4 - October 5, 1993
Secret Defenders Vol. 1 #25 - January 10, 1995
Ghost Rider 2099 Vol. 1 #25 - March 14, 1996
The majority of the comics i'm using were released in a timespan of only 5 years, which is pretty short in comicbook time. For comparison's sake: It's like if I used scans from a 2023 comic alongside scans from a 2018 comic.
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #131
They certainly vary in power, but not by like, that much, I don't think. For example if one M-Body of Eternity holds the universe as a thought/dream of his, I'd certainly expect others to do the same, even if they're weaker in their own level of existence.
- 167,690
- 76,282
But that is the textbook definition of a multiverse or a section of a multiverse as far as I am aware, so it would be a larger part of the full multiversal Eternity than just the universal cell within him. We cannot assume that anybody who fights against an abstract entity automatically contends aganst the Low 1-A version.
- 167,690
- 76,282
Okay then, but I still stand by the perspective in my last preceding posts regarding the meaning of the words universe and multiverse, and also much prefer if DontTalk evaluates if all of your claims here seem valid, mathematically or otherwise.
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #134
It isn't, no. As shown in the OP, a 'reality' in Marvel isn't just a singular universe, but also all the dimensions associated with that universe. So Earth-616 contains not just the Earth Dimension, but all the other weird magical dimensions that are indeed other planes of existence but don't technically count as separate Earths.
I mean, we already see that Eternity contains more than just the Earth Dimension in several instances. That should be just a no-brainer.
- 5,460
- 2,302
No,
Universe = low 2-C (616 universe, ultimates universe etc contain infinite other smaller universes inside them)
616 universe and all on that level = High 1-B
Omniverse/multi eternity = whatever tier we are going to choose for him in the next CRT.
- 167,690
- 76,282
They were created by Mark Gurenwald to explain away how abstract entities can be defeated by much lower beings, and explicitly get very different degrees of power afforded to them via the Dimension of Manifestations, if I remember correctly.
Last edited:
- 4,905
- 2,322
...would that not explain away any contradiction based on people fighting abstracts then????
- 8,308
- 1,696
Agreed.
... Thaaat should be placed in the Marvel Comics Discussion Thread.
- 167,690
- 76,282
And are you making any strict distinctions and rules to distinguish between when a local universe (Low 2-C) and a whole numbered (Earth-564, for example) large segment of the multiverse (Low 1-A?) is involved for scaling and when which degree of an abstract entity is involved? This can easily turn extremely diffuse and confusing for future scaling otherwise, with almost everybody automatically gaining extremely bloated tiers, as in infinite degrees of infinity higher than they have ever actually demonstrated.
Thor regularly fights skyfathers, the Hulk regularly fights Thor, the Thing regularly fights Hulk, the Rhino and Sandman fought the Thing quite regularly, and Spider-Man fights Rhino and Sandman regularly for example. Should all of them suddenly get tier Low 1-A now? I don't think that even Marvel Comics is intended to be so extremely inconsistent on a very regular basis.
Last edited:
- 167,690
- 76,282
A 3-A to Low 2-C Spectrum seems reasonable if she has feat of that scale, yes, but it is derailing, and this is a staff forum thread.
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #143
Calling back to this: I'd also very much prefer if you refrained from giving uninformed input on this discussion. I think it's clear you haven't really read the original post at all, and that's understandable (It's a little big, after all), but that being the case, you should just not unnecessarily clutter the thread with reiterations of already-debunked points.
Off the top of my head:
Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and Master Order = Low 1-A
Dormammu = Low 1-A (Way, way weaker than Eternity, but can still hold his own against him in a fight and is on the same general scope of power)
Slorioth and the Vishanti = High 1-B
Cosmic Cubes = Variable between High 1-B and Low 1-A
Phoenix Force and her Avatars = Variable between Low 1-A (Girauld cauterized a wound in Eternity's substance and made him feel pain in doing so) and High 1-B (Rachel Summers was outclassed by the Beyonder back in Secret Wars II, but could still harm him somewhat)
- 10,135
- 11,510
Mostly share the same thoughts for how little I know of Marvel.
- 18,551
- 12,861
Would well-fed Galactus and Uatu be Low 1-A? I mean, Galactus did fight Agamotto.
And while Dormammu did lose to Eternity, this was in his weakest state and Strange said that Dormammu and Eternity could've both died in the fight.
His Base also scales above the entire Celestial Avatar race (not sure what they'd be) and above the Goddess, who was >> 30 cosmic cubes due to the cosmic egg.
He also stomped and one-shot the Low 1-A Giraud, and scales to being capable of destroying the Dark Dimension, something which he has tried doing repeatedly (mostly to take Dr. Strange with it).
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #148
Also, to my knowledge, we currently rate Odin as variable from 3-C to 2-A, the former rating being what we use to account for the times where he's depicted as generally comparable to Thor (Albeit still superior), so, that's already something that proves to be no issue to us.
All-in-all: The cases you are talking about will be deemed inconsistencies regardless of what tier the Abstracts (and those who scale to them) are at, as long as we rate them higher than the heroes at all (Which we always will). So the bulk of what you say can be pretty easily dismissed as outliers (Provided they even happened in the first place)
- 167,690
- 76,282
I have helped to build and keep this community working properly for the past 9 years, and handle most of the wiki patrolling work on my own every single day. I have very limited time available.
Also, we have rather extensively talked about this issue in private earlier, and you did not post this thread in our staff forum from the start as you should have given its controversy and that it is much easier for me to notice then, or even inform me for that matter.
Please refrain from any further disparaging conceited jabs towards me in the future. Thank you.
Anyway, as I said, I really have to go to perform my regular wiki patrolling work now, as I still need to sleep properly. I would appreciate if there are only at most a few dozen more posts here when I return, not 500. Also, wait for DontTalk everybody. He needs to check the fundamental theoretical structure here.
- 167,690
- 76,282
Well, giving Odin a variable tier between 3-C and Low 1-A depending on the story seems a bit on the extreme side, yes? We might as well throw our hands up in the air and just give all characters variable tiers between their lowest lows and highest peaks, and I much prefer if we scale them from consistent portrayals rather than the greatest extremes in either direction.
- 22,343
- 18,529
To add some input as well, even universes that don't exist anymore (they say nigh-infinite due to faulty logic) due to the Ultimate Nullifier of all things are still part of Eternity's totality, despite all of the other Abstracts getting erased.
The white void that this aspect of Eternity (specifically, the spirit of Earth-82432 Eternity) embodied was utterly empty to the point where the characters where even Phoenix and Doctor Strange (who were banished from the dimension, but returned because the apertures that were sealed off were unsealed) had to explore alternate Earths rather than the plethora of surrounding realms that they could access after Korvac's barrier failed.
This comes from What If? (1977) #32 and #43.
Last edited:
- 5,460
- 2,302
Odin won't be low 1-A as far as i understood the scaling chain.
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #153
If your time avaliable is limited, then simply don't respond until you have enough time to read through the whole of my arguments. I did indeed try to discuss these matters with you private, also, but ultimately that wouldn't really have gone anywhere, and whether it's debated publicly or in private makes no difference, in the end. I apologize if I come across as conceited, but your insistence to input even while ignorant of what the arguments are is really irritating.
The Celestials would be High 1-B from scaling above Odin, most likely. They definitely don't scale to Eternity under usual circumstances, seeing as they're explicitly part of his thoughts, just like other denizens of Earth-616 are.
Dormammu and Eternity being potentially capable of killing each other is also contradicted in a fair bit of instances. For example, Eternity was fine after the battle, and his ensuing bout of unconsciousness was treated as being overall a very trivial thing to him. Later on, Umar also commented that Dormammu "took a leave of his senses" when he challenged Eternity.
Though, as pointed out above, the variable power scale of M-Bodies is a potential solution to whatever issues arise.
Last edited:
- 167,690
- 76,282
Well, "Variable. 3-C to High 1-B" isn't really much better.
- 167,690
- 76,282
- 18,551
- 12,861
True, but they were relatively even for most of the fight.
Plus Dormammu has other Low 1-A stuff like stomping Giraud and being superior to someone vastly above 30 Cosmic Cubes (which apparently will scale up to Low 1-A).
- 5,460
- 2,302
Would be better if we scale M body celestials to 2-A and true forms to High 1-B?
- 6,165
- 16,293
- Thread starter
- #160
Oh, Dormammu absolutely does scale to Low 1-A. He's just not quite equal to Eternity.
- Status
Similar threads
