• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Ultima_Reality said:
Well, as said, I'm specifically avoiding that. Without more context, we are to assume "universe" refers to the Earth Dimension, which is just Low 2-C. Universe-affecting feats will only be Low 1-A if it's made explicit that the Abstracts are being affected.

I also don't know of many instances where the Abstracts are threatened by run-of-the-mill superheroes and villains, also. If those examples exist, then they're either outliers or the heroes are somehow amped. The cosmics have always been very much above the regular denizens of Earth-616 in the pecking order.
Click to expand...
Please reread my previous post above, as I updated it.

However, what is the harm in considering what you refer to in such massive contexts as Low 1-A or 1-A as being larger sections of the multiverse instead of single universes? It seems like a much more logical fit that avoids confusion and massive contradictions.
 
Antvasima said:
Please reread my previous post above, as I updated it.

However, what is the harm in considering what you refer to in such massive contexts as Low 1-A or 1-A as being larger sections of the multiverse instead of universes? It seems like a much more logical fit that avoids confusion and massive contradictions.
Click to expand...
Your update seemed to have been just a conclusion, and not a line of reasoning in and of itself, so, there really is nothing to respond to.

The harm, also, is that the High 1-B statements all scale back to the Universal Abstracts in some way or another (Slorioth and the Cosmic Cubes are below Universal Eternity for instance). And from what I see there are no confusions or contradictions. I've already addressed all the potential inconsistencies.
 
Anyway, I have to handle my regular wiki patrolling work now in order to get sufficient sleep.

Everybody please remember that this is still a staff only thread except for the members I called for earlier, that you should avoid any spam, and wait for DontTalk to check if the scaling here seems warranted and logical.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Your update seemed to have been just a conclusion, and not a line of reasoning in and of itself, so, there really is nothing to respond to.

The harm, also, is that the High 1-B statements all scale back to the Universal Abstracts in some way or another (Slorioth and the Cosmic Cubes are below Universal Eternity for instance). And from what I see there are no confusions or contradictions. I've already addressed all the potential inconsistencies.
Click to expand...
It seems to contradict Marvel Comics' own most explicit explanations for the scale of its individual universes, which is what we currently use for our scaling, and is much more explicit/reliable than personal speculation by fitting together many different writers that usually have no idea of what the others have established.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence1.jpg

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence3.jpg
 
Antvasima said:
It seems to contradict Marvel Comics' own most explicit explanations for the scale of its individual universes, which is what we currently use for our scaling, and is much more explicit/reliable than personal speculation by fitting together many different writers that usually have no idea of what the others have established.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence1.jpg

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence3.jpg
Click to expand...
Eternity is 616 universe which contains infinite other regular universes within itself. Nothing is contradicted.

Universes = low 2-C

Eternity = Low 1-A
 
Antvasima said:
It seems to contradict Marvel Comics' own most explicit explanations for the scale of its individual universes, which is what we currently use for our scaling, and is much more explicit/reliable than personal speculation by fitting together many different writers.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence1.jpg

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence2.jpg

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/File:DoctorStrangeEvidence3.jpg
Click to expand...
I already addressed this:

One possible counterargument one might try to use is to be found in these scans, which state that man's universe has only 3 spatial dimensions and lists other realms with varying dimensionalities as universes apart from it. However, it should be noted that they are not necessarily talking about the earth dimension and the realms adjacent to it as being in the domains of separate Eternities, since, as you can see, it lists Nightmare's Realm, Asgard and the Dark Dimension among these different universes, even though it is well-established that they are all inside of Eternity. And that's of course not to mention the fact that Eternity's whole domain having only 3 spatial dimensions is very inconsistent, so the above interpretation is undoubtedly the more correct one either way.
Click to expand...

I might note, also:

Quasar Vol. 1 #27 - June 11, 1991

Children of the Voyager #4 - October 5, 1993

Secret Defenders Vol. 1 #25 - January 10, 1995

Ghost Rider 2099 Vol. 1 #25 - March 14, 1996

The majority of the comics i'm using were released in a timespan of only 5 years, which is pretty short in comicbook time. For comparison's sake: It's like if I used scans from a 2023 comic alongside scans from a 2018 comic.
 
ByAsura said:
Do we know that all M-Bodies are created equally?
Click to expand...
They certainly vary in power, but not by like, that much, I don't think. For example if one M-Body of Eternity holds the universe as a thought/dream of his, I'd certainly expect others to do the same, even if they're weaker in their own level of existence.
 
Gasper said:
Eternity is 616 universe which contains infinite other regular universes within itself. Nothing is contradicted.

Universes = low 2-C

Eternity = Low 1-A
Click to expand...
But that is the textbook definition of a multiverse or a section of a multiverse as far as I am aware, so it would be a larger part of the full multiversal Eternity than just the universal cell within him. We cannot assume that anybody who fights against an abstract entity automatically contends aganst the Low 1-A version.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I already addressed this:

I might note, also:

Quasar Vol. 1 #27 - June 11, 1991

Children of the Voyager #4 - October 5, 1993

Secret Defenders Vol. 1 #25 - January 10, 1995

Ghost Rider 2099 Vol. 1 #25 - March 14, 1996

The majority of the comics i'm using were released in a timespan of only 5 years, which is pretty short in comicbook time. For comparison's sake: It's like if I used scans from a 2023 comic alongside scans from a 2018 comic.
Click to expand...
Okay then, but I still stand by the perspective in my last preceding posts regarding the meaning of the words universe and multiverse, and also much prefer if DontTalk evaluates if all of your claims here seem valid, mathematically or otherwise.
 
Antvasima said:
But that is the textbook definition of a multiverse or a section of a multiverse as far as I am aware
Click to expand...
It isn't, no. As shown in the OP, a 'reality' in Marvel isn't just a singular universe, but also all the dimensions associated with that universe. So Earth-616 contains not just the Earth Dimension, but all the other weird magical dimensions that are indeed other planes of existence but don't technically count as separate Earths.

I mean, we already see that Eternity contains more than just the Earth Dimension in several instances. That should be just a no-brainer.
 
Antvasima said:
But that is the textbook definition of a multiverse or a section of a multiverse as far as I am aware, so it would be a larger part of the full multiversal Eternity than just the universal cell within him. We cannot assume that anybody who fights against an abstract entity automatically contends aganst the Low 1-A version.
Click to expand...
No,

Universe = low 2-C (616 universe, ultimates universe etc contain infinite other smaller universes inside them)

616 universe and all on that level = High 1-B

Omniverse/multi eternity = whatever tier we are going to choose for him in the next CRT.
 
ByAsura said:
I also have a question.

Do we know that all M-Bodies from a singular source (i.e, Eternity) are created equally?

It might solve some issues if they aren't.
Click to expand...
They were created by Mark Gurenwald to explain away how abstract entities can be defeated by much lower beings, and explicitly get very different degrees of power afforded to them via the Dimension of Manifestations, if I remember correctly.
 
Last edited:
Ultima_Reality said:
It isn't, no. As shown in the OP, a 'reality' in Marvel isn't just a singular universe, but also all the dimensions associated with that universe. So Earth-616 contains not just the Earth Dimension, but all the other weird magical dimensions that are indeed other planes of existence but don't technically count as separate Earths.

I mean, we already see that Eternity contains more than just the Earth Dimension in several instances. That should be just a no-brainer.
Click to expand...
And are you making any strict distinctions and rules to distinguish between when a local universe (Low 2-C) and a whole numbered (Earth-564, for example) large segment of the multiverse (Low 1-A?) is involved for scaling and when which degree of an abstract entity is involved? This can easily turn extremely diffuse and confusing for future scaling otherwise, with almost everybody automatically gaining extremely bloated tiers, as in infinite degrees of infinity higher than they have ever actually demonstrated.

Thor regularly fights skyfathers, the Hulk regularly fights Thor, the Thing regularly fights Hulk, the Rhino and Sandman fought the Thing quite regularly, and Spider-Man fights Rhino and Sandman regularly for example. Should all of them suddenly get tier Low 1-A now? I don't think that even Marvel Comics is intended to be so extremely inconsistent on a very regular basis.
 
Last edited:
Veronica said:
Also upgrade Monica Rambeau. In the new issue she collapsed a universe with here mere presence in a short time-frame. That seems multi-galaxy level at least in power.
Click to expand...
A 3-A to Low 2-C Spectrum seems reasonable if she has feat of that scale, yes, but it is derailing, and this is a staff forum thread.
 
Antvasima said:
and also much prefer if DontTalk evaluates if all of your claims here seem valid, mathematically or otherwise.
Click to expand...
Calling back to this: I'd also very much prefer if you refrained from giving uninformed input on this discussion. I think it's clear you haven't really read the original post at all, and that's understandable (It's a little big, after all), but that being the case, you should just not unnecessarily clutter the thread with reiterations of already-debunked points.

Eseseso said:
Maybe we should make a list of who scales to each new tier.
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head:

Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and Master Order = Low 1-A

Dormammu = Low 1-A (Way, way weaker than Eternity, but can still hold his own against him in a fight and is on the same general scope of power)

Slorioth and the Vishanti = High 1-B

Cosmic Cubes = Variable between High 1-B and Low 1-A

Phoenix Force and her Avatars = Variable between Low 1-A (Girauld cauterized a wound in Eternity's substance and made him feel pain in doing so) and High 1-B (Rachel Summers was outclassed by the Beyonder back in Secret Wars II, but could still harm him somewhat)
 
ByAsura said:
Neutral on the Skyfather stuff. But I'm pretty sure we can just not remotely scale them at all considering Galactus' fight with Mephisto (who has as many statements about being Skyfather level) and the combined Skyfathers getting stomped by Celestials, who are typically presented as below M-Bodies by a significant degree.

Anyway, I sort of agree with this, but I lean more towards much more towards neutral because I'm not entirely comfortable with Universal Eternities transcending subspace.

It's worth noting that a Skrull's space-time warp is stated to pass through infinite dimensions (in an obviously spatio-temporal context) in order to get from point a to b. This isn't an argument, just more infinite-d stuff.
Click to expand...
Mostly share the same thoughts for how little I know of Marvel.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Off the top of my head:

Eternity, Infinity, Death, Oblivion, Lord Chaos and Master Order = Low 1-A

Dormammu = Low 1-A (Way, way weaker than Eternity, but can still hold his own against him in a fight and is on the same general scope of power)

Cosmic Cubes = Variable between High 1-B and Low 1-A

Phoenix Force and her Avatars = Variable between Low 1-A (Girauld cauterized a wound in Eternity's substance and made him feel pain in doing so)
Click to expand...
Would well-fed Galactus and Uatu be Low 1-A? I mean, Galactus did fight Agamotto.

And while Dormammu did lose to Eternity, this was in his weakest state and Strange said that Dormammu and Eternity could've both died in the fight.

His Base also scales above the entire Celestial Avatar race (not sure what they'd be) and above the Goddess, who was >> 30 cosmic cubes due to the cosmic egg.

He also stomped and one-shot the Low 1-A Giraud, and scales to being capable of destroying the Dark Dimension, something which he has tried doing repeatedly (mostly to take Dr. Strange with it).
 
Antvasima said:
Thor regularly fights skyfathers, the Hulkmregularly fights Thor, the Thing regularly fights Hulk, the Rhino and Sandman fought the Thing quite regularly, and Spider-Man fights Rhino and Sandman regularly for example. Should all of them suddenly get tier Low 1-A now? I don't think that even Marvel Comics is intended to be so extremely inconsistent on a very regular basis.
Click to expand...
Also, to my knowledge, we currently rate Odin as variable from 3-C to 2-A, the former rating being what we use to account for the times where he's depicted as generally comparable to Thor (Albeit still superior), so, that's already something that proves to be no issue to us.

All-in-all: The cases you are talking about will be deemed inconsistencies regardless of what tier the Abstracts (and those who scale to them) are at, as long as we rate them higher than the heroes at all (Which we always will). So the bulk of what you say can be pretty easily dismissed as outliers (Provided they even happened in the first place)
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Calling back to this: I'd also very much prefer if you refrained from giving uninformed input on this discussion. I think it's clear you haven't really read the original post at all, and that's understandable (It's a little big, after all), but that being the case, you should just not unnecessarily clutter the thread with reiterations of already-debunked points.
Click to expand...
I have helped to build and keep this community working properly for the past 9 years, and handle most of the wiki patrolling work on my own every single day. I have very limited time available.

Also, we have rather extensively talked about this issue in private earlier, and you did not post this thread in our staff forum from the start as you should have given its controversy and that it is much easier for me to notice then, or even inform me for that matter.

Please refrain from any further disparaging conceited jabs towards me in the future. Thank you.

Anyway, as I said, I really have to go to perform my regular wiki patrolling work now, as I still need to sleep properly. I would appreciate if there are only at most a few dozen more posts here when I return, not 500. Also, wait for DontTalk everybody. He needs to check the fundamental theoretical structure here.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Also, to my knowledge, we currently rate Odin as variable from 3-C to 2-A, the former rating being what we use to account for the times where he's depicted as generally comparable to Thor (Albeit still superior), so, that's already something that proves to be no issue to us.

All-in-all: The cases you are talking about will be deemed inconsistencies regardless of what tier the Abstracts (and those who scale to them) are at, as long as we rate them higher than the heroes at all (Which we always will). So the bulk of what you say can be pretty easily dismissed as outliers (Provided they even happened in the first place)
Click to expand...
Well, giving Odin a variable tier between 3-C and Low 1-A depending on the story seems a bit on the extreme side, yes? We might as well throw our hands up in the air and just give all characters variable tiers between their lowest lows and highest peaks, and I much prefer if we scale them from consistent portrayals rather than the greatest extremes in either direction.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
It isn't, no. As shown in the OP, a 'reality' in Marvel isn't just a singular universe, but also all the dimensions associated with that universe. So Earth-616 contains not just the Earth Dimension, but all the other weird magical dimensions that are indeed other planes of existence but don't technically count as separate Earths.

I mean, we already see that Eternity contains more than just the Earth Dimension in several instances. That should be just a no-brainer.
Click to expand...
To add some input as well, even universes that don't exist anymore (they say nigh-infinite due to faulty logic) due to the Ultimate Nullifier of all things are still part of Eternity's totality, despite all of the other Abstracts getting erased.

The white void that this aspect of Eternity (specifically, the spirit of Earth-82432 Eternity) embodied was utterly empty to the point where the characters where even Phoenix and Doctor Strange (who were banished from the dimension, but returned because the apertures that were sealed off were unsealed) had to explore alternate Earths rather than the plethora of surrounding realms that they could access after Korvac's barrier failed.

This comes from What If? (1977) #32 and #43.
 
Last edited:
Antvasima said:
Well, giving Odin a variable tier between 3-C and Low 1-A depending on the story seems a bit on the extreme side, yes? We might as well throw our hands up in the air and just give all characters variable tiers between their lowest lows and highest peaks, and I much prefer if we scale them from consistent portrayals rather than the greatest extremes in either direction.
Click to expand...
Odin won't be low 1-A as far as i understood the scaling chain.
 
Antvasima said:
I have helped to build and keep this community working properly for the past 9 years, and handle most of the wiki patrolling work on my own every single day. I have very limited time available.
Click to expand...
If your time avaliable is limited, then simply don't respond until you have enough time to read through the whole of my arguments. I did indeed try to discuss these matters with you private, also, but ultimately that wouldn't really have gone anywhere, and whether it's debated publicly or in private makes no difference, in the end. I apologize if I come across as conceited, but your insistence to input even while ignorant of what the arguments are is really irritating.

Eseseso said:
Would well-fed Galactus and Uatu be Low 1-A? I mean, Galactus did fight Agamotto.

And while Dormammu did lose to Eternity, this was in his weakest state and Strange said that Dormammu and Eternity could've both died in the fight.

His Base also scales above the entire Celestial Avatar race (not sure what they'd be) and above the Goddess, who was >> 30 cosmic cubes due to the cosmic egg.

He also stomped and one-shot the Low 1-A Giraud, and scales to being capable of destroying the Dark Dimension, something which he has tried doing repeatedly (mostly to take Dr. Strange with it).
Click to expand...
The Celestials would be High 1-B from scaling above Odin, most likely. They definitely don't scale to Eternity under usual circumstances, seeing as they're explicitly part of his thoughts, just like other denizens of Earth-616 are.

Dormammu and Eternity being potentially capable of killing each other is also contradicted in a fair bit of instances. For example, Eternity was fine after the battle, and his ensuing bout of unconsciousness was treated as being overall a very trivial thing to him. Later on, Umar also commented that Dormammu "took a leave of his senses" when he challenged Eternity.

Though, as pointed out above, the variable power scale of M-Bodies is a potential solution to whatever issues arise.
 
Last edited:
Antvasima said:
Anyway, as I said, I really have to go to perform my regular wiki patrolling work now, as I still need to sleep properly. I would appreciate if there are only at most a few dozen more posts here when I return, not 500. Also, wait for DontTalk everybody. He needs to check the fundamental theoretical structure here.
Click to expand...
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Dormammu and Eternity being potentially capable of killing each other is also contradicted in a fair bit of instances. For example, Eternity was fine after the battle, and his ensuing bout of unconsciousness was treated as being overall a very trivial thing to him.
Click to expand...
True, but they were relatively even for most of the fight.

Plus Dormammu has other Low 1-A stuff like stomping Giraud and being superior to someone vastly above 30 Cosmic Cubes (which apparently will scale up to Low 1-A).
 
Ultima_Reality said:
If your time avaliable is limited, then simply don't respond until you have enough time to read through the whole of my arguments. I did indeed discuss these matters with you private, also, but ultimately that wouldn't really have gone anywhere, and whether it's debated publicly or in private makes no difference, in the end. I apologize if I come across as conceited, but your insistence to input even while ignorant of what the arguments are is very irritant.


The Celestials would be High 1-B from scaling above Odin, most likely. They definitely don't scale to Eternity under usual circumstances, seeing as they're explicitly part of his thoughts, just like other denizens of Earth-616 are.

Dormammu and Eternity being potentially capable of killing each other is also contradicted in a fair bit of instances. For example, Eternity was fine after the battle, and his ensuing bout of unconsciousness was treated as being overall a very trivial thing to him. Later on, Umar also commented that Dormammu "took a leave of his senses" when he challenged Eternity.

Though, as pointed out above, the variable power scale of M-Bodies is a potential solution to whatever issues arise.
Click to expand...
Would be better if we scale M body celestials to 2-A and true forms to High 1-B?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Eseseso
  • Locked
1-A Upgrade for the Astral Plane and the Abstracts (Marvel Comics)
2
Replies
71
Views
7K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Ultima_Reality
  • Locked
Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)
12 13 14
Replies
535
Views
49K
Antvasima
Antvasima
DontTalkDT
Context is always important - Changing a bad formulation of the Tiering System
Replies
17
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Fixxed
  • Locked
Bigger infinity should be uncountable infinity
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Eseseso
  • Locked
Some Minor Marvel Comics Revisions
Replies
17
Views
1K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Back
Top