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Marvel Comics Cosmology (World Hierarchy) Revision

Antvasima said:
So is your interpretation that Eternity is above The One Above All in Marvel's power hierarchy, or have I misunderstood?

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepmeThree @Elizio33 @MarvelFanatic119 @Catzlaflame @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Eseseso @Excellence616 @ByAsura @Emirp sumitpo @Quantu @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein @LordTracer @ProfectusInfinity @Maverick_Zero_X @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @FinePoint @SamanPatou @Starter_Pack

I need your help with properly evaluating this. 🙏
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I'm skeptical about that if that's what is being proposed.
 
Antvasima said:
So is your interpretation that Eternity is above The One Above All in Marvel's power hierarchy, or have I misunderstood?
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A key for this version of Eternity. The Omniversal Eternity as I mentioned is below the One Above All.

Eternity true extent or full extent would be greater than the One Above All.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm skeptical about that if that's what is being proposed.
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There's like three more posts that go into detail about this topic and they have plenty of evidence as well.
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
I will note some very important things with the structure of the Marvel Multiverse for a possible High 1-A rating.

This involves a unique story called Doctor Strange: Fall Sunrise and a bit of Immortal Thor. See in the Immortal Thor series when we see Toranos and Thor fighting there are things to not gloss over. It was mentioned the Yawning Void or Ginnungagap was mentioned to be the furthest shores of Eternity which would just refer to the Far Shore. This is established earlier in the Ultimates series when the Shaper of Worlds fell into Oblivion, he sawed what lay beyond supposedly the “Multiverse.” That's changed and my theory is that the Land we see in both Defenders: Beyond and Silver Surfer run which includes the Never Queen is still part of Eternity as one of three facets of the faces of existence. This would explain Al Ewing's intention both on his Twitter statement that the Far Shore is part of Eternity as well as Immortal Thor describing it to be so.

Yes, I know you may be confused since the Ultimates series and Defenders: Beyond seemed to imply it exists outside of Eternity. However, that's the thing that was rectified during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. The entirety of hierarchical cosmology is based on the fact that everything emanates from the Unknowable through the Four Worlds. Eternity represents the whole of existence in the sense that he also holds the hierarchy we see which includes the crown of Creation which is about the House of Ideas. This puts in question whether Eternity or Yggdrasil is meant to encompass the whole of existence. That's honestly hard to answer, but I think that everything is a structural part of one accord within some sort of “truer Eternity” that may exist far above just the Omniversal version we see that seems to be disconnected when reaching the Void as we saw during the first issue of Defenders: Beyond.


For anyone confused, I think this was somewhat answered very ambiguously during the final issue of Defenders: Beyond. There was an Enigma to come and that crown was cast upon all over Creation as it was above all things. Well, Eternity knew of it as well as the One Above All who is just a representation of a magnitude of higher beings that are creators as well. This is mentioned when Blue Marvel questions what creates “Creation” which includes the House of Ideas and the form of the One Above All at that level. This would mean that Eternity and the Marvel Multiverse is far larger than just simply existing in the “World of Action” since the “World of Creation” as we see it contains even the crown of “Creation.” Where everything is connected in a hierarchical system hence why Al Ewing reaffirms the idea that Yggdrasil is akin to the Tree of Life in Kabbalah which also contains the Keter or the House of Ideas.

This brings me to my next idea. In the Doctor Strange series called Fall Sunrise. It was mentioned there was nothing which was “all” then a division happened, a sort of Dyad. From the perfect formless nothing became dualistic in two parts: Bythos and Sophia. This represents the very nature of that perfection in a realm of pure and perfect ideas while Sophia represents the opposite end which is the Realm of Shapes which both encompasses the notion of what was “All that Is” as it is now.

It was explained that Bythos is the realm of pure ideas and that nothing becomes everything. In trying to perceive him do we see Sophia and the Realm of Shapes which is just a shadow reflection of the Realm of Ideas. Sophia is literally “All That Is” which is also Bythos who is “All That Is” because their separation caused division, but they are the original existence of the “nothing” that was all “infinity” which is the “One” thing which is a reference to the One from Gnostics which the story is heavily centered around.

There are some things that the story gets wrong about the Gnostic aspect and are mixed around with older elements like Platonism, Neo-Platonism, and whatnot. For example, it was heavily notion that the Demiurge is the creator of the material world(world of shape) using the ideas of the pure and divine realm(world of ideas) while Sophia herself being an Aeon birthing this monster Creator-diety as oppose to the story treating Sophia as the mother of the Aeons. This is rather important because it establishes that the entirety of Creation as I put above is purely just a reflection of the pure and eternal realm of ideas. This means that the difference is in transcendence between Earth 616 Universe to Multiversal Eternity with the One Above All and the whole of Creation is in turn High 1-A for Byhtos and the realm of ideas.
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VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
It doesn't. The entire notion of a Creational being that encompasses the entire structure goes far beyond Multiversal Eternity.

In the same vein the One Above All represents the Creator figure that emanates has energy down to the lower sphere and runs them. The Eternity that encompasses the structure of the entire Four-World Cosmology would be a bigger facet of existence which is not yet seen by anything. Like the One Above All, the Eternity we see may be our limit of understanding, and that being may be something else entirely. So it would need an entirely different key.

I'm not fully against it, but Eternity scaling above the One Above All really sounds weird.
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VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
It's not at all speculative other than what to name a key for Eternity. I've provided the evidence for it as seen in Yggdrasil’s highest point containing the Crown and the furthest shores of Eternity being the Far Shore which is often depicted as being part of the Outside in the Mystery.

We've seen the Pligrim/Never Queen mention that the journey of the Mystery is her goal and to find the core of “Creation.” It’s quite clear that the other hierarchy which is interconnected through the Four Worlds is encompassed by a sort of Eternity in the same way that Multiverse Eternity encompasses Malkuth/Negative Zone as its edge and is simply one of three faces of existence alongside the Never Queen and the Griever. Quite clear Multiverse Eternity is part of it hence why during the war of existence in the Ultimates series Eternity existed in the far shore alongside the other Firmanents yet is stated to contain it as well which means he is a facet of the totality of all existence which is the Four World in this case. This is unsurprising since the Defenders saw the One Above All draw the entire map because he is the limit of understanding in the hierarchy, but represents an endless ladder of beings of the same nature just on a higher caliber in a different hierarchy.

So, my point is Eternity should get a key something called “True Eternity” that encompasses the very least the whole of the Assiyah hierarchy, but I think it should extend to the entire cosmological map. If not we can create an Eternity key for each world; the World of Action, the World of Creation, and the World of Emanation, but that's too much. Just a key of Eternity where Multiversal is simply a facet of it.
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I don't think it is too skeptical when you connect the evidence.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
A key for this version of Eternity. The Omniversal Eternity as I mentioned is below the One Above All.

Eternity true extent or full extent would be greater than the One Above All.
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Unless this has been explicitly stated within the stories themselves, and is currenrly officially accepted by the Marvel Comics editorial department, I think that it seems too speculative and unreliable to apply. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Unless this has been explicitly stated within the stories themselves, and is currently officially accepted by the Marvel Comics editorial department, I think that it seems too speculative and unreliable to apply. 🙏
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Why would we need confirmation? These things don't need to be so. The stories themselves are hinting at it to those who dwell on the details. Statements are statements, but evidence are objective things. The evidence is based on the detail that's been shown and it's clear that I would rather have in story citation and reading rather than statements.

The Divine Creator wasn't ever stated to be the strongest yet we know this intuitively from the story rather than a confirmation from the editorial which themselves are subjective things.

The entire portion of the Unknowable is “speculative” yet is used because the stories themselves hint at it being a thing. I'm not speculating for the sake of random interpretation. This is purely based on the evidence shown which is not at all denied and makes sense. I don't know where you're trying to draw the line but that wasn't it. Unless you want to try to debunk my notion then the main premise stands.
 
I am just saying that establishing Eternity as the most powerful known Marvel Comics character, or at least superior to the officially strongest Marvel Comics character, the One Above All, is such a massive and controversial step that I think that we need definitive official confirmation before we take it, so we do not end up with another "The Writer" situation. 🙏

However, can you summarise all of your evidence for Eternity exceeding TOAA, including issue references, in an easily understood manner, please?
 
Antvasima said:
I am just saying that establishing Eternity as the most powerful known Marvel Comics character, or at least superior to the officially strongest Marvel Comics character, the One Above All, is such a massive and controversial step that I think that we need definitive official confirmation before we take it, so we do not end up with another "The Writer" situation. 🙏

However, can you summarise all of your evidence for Eternity exceeding TOAA, including issue references, in an easily understood manner, please?
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I'll save this for another thread. However, this is nothing like the Writer. The Writer has always been not the most powerful and was interpreted wrong. This situation nowhere near mirrors that.
 
Can you explain what we currently need to evaluate here please? 🙏
 
 
Thank you for helping out to you as well. 🙏
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
This was a long time coming and because of that I decided to move quickly with the changes. So, previously, established in this thread:

vsbattles.com

J.M. DeMatteis (Marvel Cosmology Split)

As some of you may understand I have been advocating with Ultima after this tiering system revision was being applied that DeMatteis's story isn't very congruent with the main Cosmology. While authors like Hickman, Ewing, and many others seem to at least follow a certain contunity with their...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

So the main jist is to remove scans pertaining to the author “J.M. DeMatteis” and his more personal view of the Cosmology.

Changes and Removal:​

The changes will be a bit radical but then again it's all fair and game. Subspace will keep its tiering as High 1-B. All dimensionality higher will be High 1-B+. That's where we get to the Abstracts.

Abstract:​


Since a recent revision pivots the Astral Plane as 1-A, it will remain 1-A. Meaning the Abstarct Universal True Forms remains a layer above baseline.

Omniverse:​

The changes to the Omniverse will adhere to just staying 1-A since we will not be using the dreams within dreams where reality is not real to the higher realms. Although, there's some interesting keys to it, the best for the Omniverse at the higher end is 1-A+. Which all the differences within worlds are in the same hierarchy and not a different one. So, the Multiversal/Omniversal form of the Abstracts will be reduced to 1-A.

The Outside:​

The Outside realms will all be reduced 1-A. However, the main difference is that each higher realms does not share the same relation of transcendence in the new wiki. So, the Far Shore, and the Beyond will just remain three layer. The White Hot Room, Couldn’t-Be-Shouldn’t-Be/Could-Be-Shall-Be, and the House of Idea will be an additional layer. The only realm and character to get High 1-A will be the One Above All and the House of Ideas.
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After going through the Marvel comics more thoroughly, I totally agree. I think there’s still so much potential for them to get back to H 1-A level like before, or maybe even surpass it. And that definitely includes the magic in Marvel comics too.
 
Thank you for helping out. 🙏❤️
 
Okay. If no other knowledgeable staff members are interested in helping out here, I suppose that will have to make do in lack of better options, especially as I will leave on a trip in two days.

Are you willing and able to carefully apply these revisions to all our affected Marvel Comics pages in a properly structured and formatted manner? Or do you need help from other knowledgeable members as well? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. If no other knowledgeable staff members are interested in helping out here, I suppose that will have to make do in lack of better options, especially as I will leave on a trip in two days.

Are you willing and able to carefully apply these revisions to all our affected Marvel Comics pages in a properly structured and formatted manner? Or do you need help from other knowledgeable members as well? 🙏
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@Eseseso said he would remove the current tiers himself.
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. If no other knowledgeable staff members are interested in helping out here, I suppose that will have to make do in lack of better options, especially as I will leave on a trip in two days.

Are you willing and able to carefully apply these revisions to all our affected Marvel Comics pages in a properly structured and formatted manner? Or do you need help from other knowledgeable members as well? 🙏
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VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
@Eseseso said he would remove the current tiers himself.
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@Eseseso

Are you willing and able to properly handle it instead? 🙏
 
Thank you very much for helping out. 🙏🙂❤️

Please remember to link to this thread in the small edit-summary boxes for our affected wiki pages.
 
I've been reading this thread. From my understanding, the Abstracts will cap at 2 layers into 1-A whereas House of Ideas and TOAA remain High 1-A.

Maybe this thread isn't the right place to inquire this, but where would characters like God of Stories Loki and Rune King Thor scale with these revisions?

Also, are the changes already being applied?
 
Xavis10 said:
I've been reading this thread. From my understanding, the Abstracts will cap at 2 layers into 1-A whereas House of Ideas and TOAA remain High 1-A.
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Yes.
Xavis10 said:
Maybe this thread isn't the right place to inquire this, but where would characters like God of Stories Loki and Rune King Thor scale with these revisions?
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Loki is a weird case but probably 1-A alongside Thor.
 
Xavis10 said:
I've been reading this thread. From my understanding, the Abstracts will cap at 2 layers into 1-A whereas House of Ideas and TOAA remain High 1-A.

Maybe this thread isn't the right place to inquire this, but where would characters like God of Stories Loki and Rune King Thor scale with these revisions?
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VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Yes.

Loki is a weird case but probably 1-A alongside Thor.
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God of Stories Loki threatened the Ones who Sit Above in Shadow, so definitely 1-A (as in 2 layers of 1-A).

Man we really gotta get GoS Loki a profile.
 
Eseseso said:
ToWSAIS are currently scaled to the Beyonders, though Ultima says that they should scale to the Elder Gods in a future CRT
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Honestly, they shouldn't. Since Immortal Thor implies they're just Elder Gods born of the Demiurge. I don't see how they scale to the Multiversal form of the Abstract.
 
VeryGoofyToddler2 said:
Honestly, they shouldn't. Since Immortal Thor implies they're just Elder Gods born of the Demiurge. I don't see how they scale to the Multiversal form of the Abstract.
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1. They're indicated to be Beyonders as stated on the profile.

2. Elder Gods, according to Ultima, scale to the True Phoenix Force/White Hot Room
 
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