Regarding FTL Kaido

[KingTempest]

You know what?

I don't know how yall derailed the argument from light to lightning, and frankly, idc.

Give me a good reason other than "doesn't make sense" for Kizaru not to be faster than his fruit.

 

[Damage3245]

Why would he make her eat a fruit that makes her slower?

We don't know if that is the case for certain.

Oda could just as easily write Nami saying "Wow, now that I have the Goro Goro fruit, I can zip around at the speed of lightning now." And I'd hope that we'd take away from that that she is faster now, not slower.

Why would Kizaru say "Speed is weight" and then kick at lightspeed with his Devil Fruit if his kick was already five or six times faster than the speed of light? Why put so much emphasis on the speed of his Devil Fruit is his Devil Fruit has nothing to do with how fast Kizaru fights?

All these "if"s. We're not waiting hundreds of chapters to see if something happens.

That was more of a hypothetical "If" than a genuine request.

Did they not react to lightning?

Yes, but that doesn't make everyone lightning speed. You can react to a train hurtling towards you on train tracks and step out of the way, but it'd be wrong to say you have "train speed" feats.

I could say this with so much of our scaling from before and it wouldn't mean much.
We work off of feats, not headcanon.
If Nami's MFTL off of a feat then she's MFTL off of a feat.

We work off of both, unfortunately. We don't have a feat of Katakuri keeping up with FTL Ichiji... we calculate Ichiji being FTL at one moment and then we assume that he must have been FTL when fighting Katakuri... even though it's not confirmed for us.

Whether they're reasonable assumptions or not, there are still assumptions at work in how we scale and rank these characters.

I place higher importance on how Oda has portrayed Kizaru than how Oda has portrayed Ichiji that one time.

 

[KingTempest]

I'm busy right now so I won't answer everything, but I have an issue with this.

We work off of both, unfortunately. We don't have a feat of Katakuri keeping up with FTL Ichiji... we calculate Ichiji being FTL at one moment and then we assume that he must have been FTL when fighting Katakuri... even though it's not confirmed for us.

Damage. This is the one verse where I've seen people somehow fluctuate whatever AP or speed they're at. Someone can be 420 Megatons one minute and then 40 Megatons another minute without any reason to change.

You have no valid reason for Ichiji not to try his best against the second strongest of a Yonko crew except "we don't see it". We don't see Aokiji and Akainu fight, I guess they're not equals.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Why the hell would Pre Timeskip Luffy get upgraded

Fought Magellan and was not blitzed??

Please explain how he becomes FTL.

Fought Magellan on par and only lost due to poison, yes same Magellan, the person that dealt with FTL Ivan?

One piece is filled with FEATS please try and see them.

Yes it is, but does it go with the entire series?
Cause naruto would have been FTL+ before chapter 100 if we take every feat that happened as it is

Beams are made by Vegapunk who specifically modeled them after Kizaru, Yk the man who’s technology is said to be 500 years advanced.

Man can make DNA altering fruits that turn you into a dragon but can’t make a Sol laser?

Modelled yes doesnt make it the same, reasons:
1. Are any of the dragons he made as strong as kaido the original??
2. Zoro could tell that px1 was not as durable as the original kuma the moment he cut px1 (even though their bodies are modelled after kuma they are not as durable)
3. Luffy couldn't react to kizaru beams but can dodge the modelled one of px3?


Lol yes all these are proofs

Your views have no weight on this argument.

Unfair, an argument is happens because two or more have different view of things

Send scans of Luffy not reacting to Kizaru's beams when we see Luffy running and we see the beam fired to his face from Kizaru.

Huh?
The only thing luffy did was notice kizaru
legs shining, even no names foot soldiers of the WB crews noticed this too,
Luffy literally told Ivan "thanks you saved me" iirc

Prove it.

Modelled yes doesnt make it the same, reasons:
1. Are any of the dragons he made as strong as kaido the original??
2. Zoro could tell that px1 was not as durable as the original kuma the moment he cut px1 (even though their bodies are modelled after kuma they are not as durable)
3. Luffy couldn't react to kizaru beams but can dodge the modelled one of px3?
4. The whole straw hats crew literally dodged it

 

[KingTempest]

Fought Magellan and was not blitzed??

Fought Magellan on par and only lost due to poison, yes same Magellan, the person that dealt with FTL Ivan?

Quote where I said Ivan is FTL. I said his feat is support for FTL post TS, never said he’s ftl.

Yes it is, but does it go with the entire series?
Cause naruto would have been FTL+ before chapter 100 if we take every feat that happened as it is

Different series, keep it over there.

Modelled yes doesnt make it the same, reasons:
1. Are any of the dragons he made as strong as kaido the original??

Quote where it’s stated that the dragons are modeled off of Kaido.
Those are Western Dragons. Kaido is an Eastern Dragon. Completely different type of dragons.

2. Zoro could tell that px1 was not as durable as the original kuma the moment he cut px1 (even though their bodies are modelled after kuma they are not as durable)

Where is it said they’re modeled like Kuma? They copy his abilities but they’re made out of completely different materials.

3. Luffy couldn't react to kizaru beams but can dodge the modelled one of px3?

Scans of Luffy not reacting to Kizaru’s beams?

Lol yes all these are proofs

None at all

Unfair, an argument is happens because two or more have different view of things

Ik, but you have no valid proof. What you “think” doesn’t matter if it’s not supported.

Huh?
The only thing luffy did was notice kizaru
legs shining, even no names foot soldiers of the WB crews noticed this too,

And we get the kanji that the laser was fired.
Idc about side characters, those same ppl reacted to Kizaru’s lasers when he fired them at Newgate.

Luffy literally told Ivan "thanks you saved me" iirc

Did he not? Did he ever imply he was done for?

 

[KingTempest]

Not answering anything else until this is answered

You know what?

I don't know how yall derailed the argument from light to lightning, and frankly, idc.

Give me a good reason other than "doesn't make sense" for Kizaru not to be faster than his fruit.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Quote where I said Ivan is FTL. I said his feat is support for FTL post TS, never said he’s ftl.

My bad then

Quote where it’s stated that the dragons are modeled off of Kaido.
Those are Western Dragons. Kaido is an Eastern Dragon. Completely different type of dragons.

Well okay point taken

Scans of Luffy not reacting to Kizaru’s beams?

I think the burden of proof is on you, u claimed he did when he didn't, can't post scans here but check chapter 558 page 3 and 4
Yes he can't react to them even though its long ranged but can react to PX beams up close?
And somehow the beams are the same?

Did he not? Did he ever imply he was done for?

Yes the moment he said thanks you saved me it means he was done for

 

[Damage3245]

Just to note regarding Ichiji, we have this on his profile:

likely Speed of Light movement and attack with Sparking Valkyrie (Functions similarly to light beams and should be capable of moving at such speeds. Given that Ichiji's younger brother Niji is stated to move at light-speed with his Henry Blazer attack, it's reasonable to suggest he too can move with such speed)

We gave him a "likely" rating because we don't have solid confirmation that his attack is lightspeed. Was there something new that was brought up that would confirm his attacks as being lightspeed?

Because if they're still ambiguous as to whether or not they're actually lightspeed, then I would be against upgrading him to FTL.

His blasts could also be "made out of light" but not necessarily be lightspeed themselves.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

IMO, those are gag scenes and not that valid for judging their actual combat speed. In the same arc we have Sanji being hit by lightning without being able to evade, and Robin being hit in the head by Enel's lightning.

Nami and Usopp being much faster than Sanji and Robin? Highly questionable.

You can't say this is the same

El thor would actually be light speed... (I hope you understand why) I think

 

[PrinceofPein]

Scans of Luffy not reacting to Kizaru’s beams

There is one more proof, luffy was statued by kizaru (in logia form) and called too slow.
Was in gear two iirc

But yup that's another

 

[Damage3245]

You can't say this is the same

I wasn't referring to that scene.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes it is, but does it go with the entire series?
Cause naruto would have been FTL+ before chapter 100 if we take every feat that happened as it is

If we were to do that then luffy would be light speed when fighting enel or foxy https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_47

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I wasn't referring to that scene.

There isn't another scene tho I think

 

[PrinceofPein]

You know what?

I don't know how yall derailed the argument from light to lightning, and frankly, idc.

Give me a good reason other than "doesn't make sense" for Kizaru not to be faster than his fruit.

You are the one proving he is faster so I think burden of "reasonable and indisputable" proof is on you
And yes to be reasonable, you can't use kizaru as a basis for the FTL kizaru.

I mean literally every time he kicks at LS he is in partial logia form, lol if he can kick faster without logia forms he will

 

[PrinceofPein]

If we were to do that then luffy would be light speed when fighting enel or foxy https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_47

Literally a fuging joke answer. Tf is this?

: What should one do if Enel shot down lightning bolts? by Pacchon
O: First, guard yourself by ducking at light speed, then give him that golden right with a bit of rotation!! If you can't hit him, cover your bellybutton, cry and surrender! He's tough, folks!!

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

You are the one proving he is faster so I think burden of "reasonable and indisputable" proof is on you
And yes to be reasonable, you can't use kizaru as a basis for the FTL kizaru.

I mean literally every time he kicks at LS he is in partial logia form, lol if he can kick faster without logia forms he will

He kicked only 1 time with his logia form... And that was him while not trying

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Literally a fuging joke answer. Tf is this?

: What should one do if Enel shot down lightning bolts? by Pacchon
O: First, guard yourself by ducking at light speed, then give him that golden right with a bit of rotation!! If you can't hit him, cover your bellybutton, cry and surrender! He's tough, folks!!

That is what luffy did to enel... Luffy punched enel with a golden ball...

 

[PrinceofPein]

He kicked only 1 time with his logia form... And that was him while not trying

Three times
Hawkins, apoo, luffy

 

[PrinceofPein]

That is what luffy did to enel... Luffy punched enel with a golden ball...

Yes a joke answer given by oda to a joke question

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Literally a fuging joke answer. Tf is this?

: What should one do if Enel shot down lightning bolts? by Pacchon
O: First, guard yourself by ducking at light speed, then give him that golden right with a bit of rotation!! If you can't hit him, cover your bellybutton, cry and surrender! He's tough, folks!!

There is no proof in the anime and manga that haku moved at the speed of light and even outside of them it say its possible to move at the speed of light

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Three times
Hawkins, apoo, luffy

Actually you are right I thought he didn't use it with apoo

 

[PrinceofPein]

There is no proof in the anime and manga that haku moved at the speed of light and even outside of them it say its possible to move at the speed of light

Theren is proof tho
The naruto light novel?(literally stated here)
Data book?
And the fact that haku moving through mirrors was defined as reflecting through them
Or reflections are not SOL?

Sasuke with one tomoe can follow haku movement, naruto blitzed her while moving through mirrors?
Two tomoe sasuke can't react to naruto or perceive his attacks

Yes that's like FTL+ before chapter 200

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

There is one more proof, luffy was statued by kizaru (in logia form) and called two slow.
Was in gear two iirc

But yup that's another

And luffy said this post timeskip...

 

[PrinceofPein]

And luffy said this post timeskip...

✌

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Theren is proof tho
The naruto light novel?(literally stated here)
Data book?
And the fact that haku moving through mirrors was defined as reflecting through them
Or reflections are not SOL?

Sasuke with one tomoe can follow haku movement, naruto blitzed her while moving through mirrors?
Two tomoe sasuke can't react to naruto or perceive his attacks

Yes that's like FTL+ before chapter 200

Again... It states it possible ... And she does not always move at the speed of light

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

✌

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Theren is proof tho
The naruto light novel?(literally stated here)
Data book?
And the fact that haku moving through mirrors was defined as reflecting through them
Or reflections are not SOL?

Sasuke with one tomoe can follow haku movement, naruto blitzed her while moving through mirrors?
Two tomoe sasuke can't react to naruto or perceive his attacks

Yes that's like FTL+ before chapter 200

This should be light speed...https://youtu.be/Yc0P7xqY9TA?t=320 and she/he moved slower or stopped mid air....https://youtu.be/Yc0P7xqY9TA?t=220

 

[Damage3245]

I'd like to request that people stop bringing up Naruto on here.

As KingTempest said up above, it's a different series. Drawing comparisons is fine, but that is not the main focus of this thread.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I'd like to request that people stop bringing up Naruto on here.

Ok

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Yes a joke answer given by oda to a joke question

He still states it's light speed... Joke or not.. And there is no reason for the question to be a joke..

 

[Ryuga21]

I will be unfollowing now, this is a very controversial topic and stretched too far.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

3. Luffy couldn't react to kizaru beams but can dodge the modelled one of px3?

When did kizaru shot a beam at luffy pre timeskip? This is the only image I could find but luffy did react while fighting and injured to the point that he slowly tried to go back up

And reacted to this also

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

We work off of both, unfortunately. We don't have a feat of Katakuri keeping up with FTL Ichiji... we calculate Ichiji being FTL at one moment and then we assume that he must have been FTL when fighting Katakuri... even though it's not confirmed for us.

Whether they're reasonable assumptions or not, there are still assumptions at work in how we scale and rank these characters.

How does these not scale? Katakuri destroyed him while not trying...
Page 13 page 14

 

[KingTempest]

We can apply the OP’s scaling to those who scale.

I’ll make a separate thread for my calc and scaling

 

[Damage3245]

The Rayleigh calc was originally removed because Rayleigh didn't necessarily start moving after Kizaru turned into light. If he started moving before then, then he wouldn't even need to be FTL to intercept him, he could be Relativistc+ and accomplish the same feat.

EDIT: As for FTL Ichiji, wasn't this already discussed on a thread with CinCameron a few months ago? We came to a compromise solution back then to give him "likely Speed of Light" and left it at that.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I'm all for upgrading One Piece, but Damage's side still makes sense in my opinion.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The Rayleigh calc was originally removed because Rayleigh didn't necessarily start moving after Kizaru turned into light. If he started moving before then, then he wouldn't even need to be FTL to intercept him, he could be Relativistc+ and accomplish the same feat.

EDIT: As for FTL Ichiji, wasn't this already discussed on a thread with CinCameron a few months ago? We came to a compromise solution back then to give him "likely Speed of Light" and left it at that.

I don't know why you are so afraid of ftl in one piece... I think it's because you want someone to specifically state... I move faster then the speed of light.. Yet you don't accept luffy saying too slow to the beam but that's what I think you are VERY strict yet there is nothing that suggests you need to because of how many ftl feats there are

 

[PrinceofPein]

He still states it's light speed... Joke or not.. And there is no reason for the question to be a joke..

Its irrelevant tho

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

The Rayleigh calc was originally removed because Rayleigh didn't necessarily start moving after Kizaru turned into light. If he started moving before then, then he wouldn't even need to be FTL to intercept him, he could be Relativistc+ and accomplish the same feat.

EDIT: As for FTL Ichiji, wasn't this already discussed on a thread with CinCameron a few months ago? We came to a compromise solution back then to give him "likely Speed of Light" and left it at that.

Wouldn't this be ftl? Since rayleigh stopped kizaru while moving?

 

[PrinceofPein]

When did kizaru shot a beam at luffy pre timeskip? This is the only image I could find but luffy did react while fighting and injured to the point that he slowly tried to go back up

And reacted to this also

Chapter 558
And when he shot right through luffy