Regarding FTL Kaido

[KingTempest]

After talking about his DF that makes him fast?

And have we ever thought that "Kizaru's movements" mean like his complex movements while being blinded in your face or something while having your attacks predicted with Kenbunshoku?

there's obviously more to it than just being lightspeed.​

 

[PrinceofPein]

I hope you realize that this will be total speculations and head canon on your part?

 

[KingTempest]

I hope you realize that this will be total speculations and head canon on your part?

Occam's Razor is a thing. You know all calcs on this wiki and powerscaling are primarily headcanon right?

Oda says you need advanced Kenbunshoku to grasp him.

Why didn't he say that for his lasers? Or for Niji? Or for Kuma's hands? Or the Noro Noro beams? Noooo. He says it for Kizaru's movements.

They've perceived lightspeed consistently but they haven't perceived Kizaru. It's definitely not just speed based.

 

[KingTempest]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/lightspeed-niji.108148/

Didn't this basically say that Niji has the reactions to react to his complex lightspeed movement?

"An attack at the speed of light with a ray-covered sword! It has fencing and high dynamic vision to precisely hit your enemies with a single blow."

So Niji's allowed to react at lightspeed while he's flipping left and right without Haki whatsoever, but the guy who outruns light and those who scale aren't allowed.

What.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will get back to this in few hours, currently busy
Sorry✌

 

[KingTempest]

I will get back to this in few hours, currently busy
Sorry✌

It's all good

 

[XDragnoir]

So, everyone with a "possibly Rel+" would get "possibly FTL" instead?

^^

Also, what about Oda talking about the straws' speed in vol 85's SBS?

 

[KingTempest]

^^

It wouldn't be possibly.
Luffy's scaling is "superior to Pre TS" and a possibly rel from Doflamingo, but since he has a solid scaling from Katakuri with feats and statements, it wouldn't be possibly. Plus, the scaling chain would be changed, so instead of Luffy scaling to Doffy, Doffy scales to Luffy.

Also, what about Oda talking about the straws' speed in vol 85's SBS?

100% Travel Speed, not combat, although it does hold some truth with the feats.

Brook blitzed Big Mom.
Sanji was portrayed to be faster than the rest of the crew with Geppo and his regular speed, especially with Diable Jambe.
Luffy is Luffy.
Everything else below is ehh.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I think it's a bit of misrepresentation to say that Kizaru's stated speed is the sole thing that opposes the idea of FTL speed in One Piece.

I don't know how worthwhile it would be to even bring up other antifeats though. When bringing up the characters being hit by lightning, I was told that it Kizaru uses his Devil Fruit to enhance to his kicks to lightspeed, AKA increases his combat speed. He does this because in his own words "speed is weight", he is making his kicks more powerful precisely because they're faster.

But now we're being told to accept that actually Kizaru is naturally at least five times faster than the speed of light anyway. Really, his Devil Fruit just handicaps himself and makes him five times slower whenever he attacks...

It's frankly nonsense, and is a very good example of why we should be limiting our headcanon when it comes to these characters.

People try to excuse this inconsistency when it comes to Kizaru by saying "His Devil Fruit is still useful, because it makes his travel speed super-fast! His combat speed is untouched!" But the whole deal with Kizaru's kicks shows how contradictory this is. Evidently his combat speed is not untouched.

I just wanna say Kizaru kicked Hawkins while not being serious and used light to kick at the speed of light but Kizaru didn't make his arms into light when fighting more serious against Rayleigh...

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Kizaru is going to have a slower kicking speed than post-timeskip Sanji, or Vergo.

If you don't think that's hilarious, then I don't know what to say.

Well I think thats because he hasn't fought seriously and his feat is a pre timeskip kick while not trying...

 

[Damage3245]

Well I think thats because he hasn't fought seriously and his feat is a pre timeskip kick while not trying...

I suggested earlier in the thread that we should wait to see Kizaru fight properly Post-Timeskip so we can see whether or not he is actually one of the slowest characters in the verse.

I just wanna say Kizaru kicked Hawkins while not being serious and used light to kick at the speed of light but Kizaru didn't make his arms into light when fighting more serious against Rayleigh...

That suggests to me that Kizaru was not swinging his arms around at lightspeed. The more reasonable position would be because he is fighting at slower than lightspeed, not that he is raising his speed to be five times faster without his Devil Fruit.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I suggested earlier in the thread that we should wait to see Kizaru fight properly Post-Timeskip so we can see whether or not he is actually one of the slowest characters in the verse.



That suggests to me that Kizaru was not swinging his arms around at lightspeed. The more reasonable position would be because he is fighting at slower than lightspeed, not that he is raising his speed to be five times faster without his Devil Fruit.

Well he fought seriously against rayleigh why would he not be attacking faster?... There is nothing that suggests that he is fighting slower... Only faster

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

I suggested earlier in the thread that we should wait to see Kizaru fight properly Post-Timeskip so we can see whether or not he is actually one of the slowest characters in the verse.



That suggests to me that Kizaru was not swinging his arms around at lightspeed. The more reasonable position would be because he is fighting at slower than lightspeed, not that he is raising his speed to be five times faster without his Devil Fruit.

Even if he fights post timeskip there is nothing that suggests he is only light speed combat... And why should he even be 5x faster?

 

[PrinceofPein]

It's all good

Okay I'm a but free, I want to address you using Ivan wink as a feat,

As long as I've seen (don't know about anime tho) Ivan wink was never shown to travel, its more of an instant
1. Ivan when talking to kuma and not really paying attention, she/he could not even notice the beam from kuma
(She may have obv haki, since she could navigate through multiple with her wink prior)
N.B. the multiple beams she navigated through were not shot directly at her it was so she could notndodge everything similar to buck shot
2. Ivan was not sure she can beat Magellan, yes same Magellan that luffy pre time skip held his own against pretty well and only lost due to poison kicking in
(Yes you can say it was probably due to the nature of Magellan DF, but why won't a FTL character blitz a MHS+?)
3. The PX3 beams were really inconsistent, the whole straw hats crew dodged it pre time skip.


I will say what I said when this thread started, speed in one piece is really inconsistent

 

[PrinceofPein]

Brook blitzed Big Mom

Big mom was not really in her senses then
Same way jinbei could match her blow for blow, or chopper taking hits from her.
Hunger pang big mom is no where near the actual one, so I dont think that counts as a feat for brook

 

[Dr.Fix]

I think @CinCameron20 and @Damage3245 make the most sense. It is illogical for Kizaru to be faster in base than with his devil fruit and noticing is not the same as reacting.

BTW someone remind me what Luffy was calc'd at for evading PX laser?

 

[USklaverei]

I would wait, but I'll post these calculations here for those who want to see the consistency, they haven't been evaluated yet, but you can get a sense.

USklaverei/OnePieceFeatSpeed

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Damage3245]

I would wait, but I'll post these calculations here for those who want to see the consistency, they haven't been evaluated yet, but you can get a sense.

USklaverei/OnePieceFeatSpeed

vsbattles.fandom.com

That seems to put the verse at consistently below FTL even if we deemed all of those Pre-Timeskip light feats as valid. Though some of those are only reaction feats and not combat feats; Hawkins for example, while he could "react" he was still relatively immobile compared to Kizaru and was blitzed by him repeatedly during their fight.

EDIT: Though I don't think every feat there is particularly valid; Usopp and Apoo's reactions for example. I believe they're reacting after being hit by the light, not before being hit by it.

 

[USklaverei]

I don't see why they would not be valid, the consistency of this is VERY GOOD, so, why would that not be valid?
And yes, there are reactions, but I think they are still a support.

 

[USklaverei]

EDIT: Though I don't think every feat there is particularly valid; Usopp and Apoo's reactions for example. I believe they're reacting after being hit by the light, not before being hit by it.

So about that, I also had doubts, about Usoop is still questionable, but from Apoo, if we see in the image, Kizaru was already with his leg moving towards his head (we see the photons coming out of his leg) and Apoo can perceive that.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I would wait, but I'll post these calculations here for those who want to see the consistency, they haven't been evaluated yet, but you can get a sense.

USklaverei/OnePieceFeatSpeed

vsbattles.fandom.com

Looks good to me. They're all fairly consistant. Also good you distinguish the difference between perceiving and evading.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay I'm a but free, I want to address you using Ivan wink as a feat,

As long as I've seen (don't know about anime tho) Ivan wink was never shown to travel, its more of an instant

Definitely a trail.
Definitely a trail.

1. Ivan when talking to kuma and not really paying attention, she/he could not even notice the beam from kuma

Stares at the beam and rolls away.

(She may have obv haki, since she could navigate through multiple with her wink prior)

Usopp was navigating slingshots prior to having Kenbunshoku. Navigating and all sight feats aren't Kenbun feats.

N.B. the multiple beams she navigated through were not shot directly at her it was so she could notndodge everything similar to buck shot
2. Ivan was not sure she can beat Magellan, yes same Magellan that luffy pre time skip held his own against pretty well and only lost due to poison kicking in
(Yes you can say it was probably due to the nature of Magellan DF, but why won't a FTL character blitz a MHS+?)

Don't trust the profiles. If Ivankov gets upgraded, Magellan gets upgraded.
The same technique that Ivankov used at Luffy to send him flying to dodge Kizaru's laser is what Ivankov used against Magellan and he blocked it w/ no issues.

3. The PX3 beams were really inconsistent, the whole straw hats crew dodged it pre time skip.

That doesn't make it inconsistent. It means that the crew consistently dodged it.

I will say what I said when this thread started, speed in one piece is really inconsistent

It's very consistent, people just don't like it.

 

[Damage3245]

The same technique that Ivankov used at Luffy to send him flying to dodge Kizaru's laser is what Ivankov used against Magellan and he blocked it w/ no issues.

Just wanted to say that it looks more like Ivankov is targeting Magellan's Hydra and destroying it, rather than Ivankov targeting Magellan and Magellan blocking it with his Hydra.

 

[PrinceofPein]

If Ivankov gets upgraded, Magellan gets upgraded

I will address the rest later, but let me address this quickly

will pre time skip luffy get upgraded too?, cause he certainly was decking magellan one on one? Or pre time skip luffy becomes FTL?

 

[PrinceofPein]

crew consistently dodged it.

Same crew that the top in the crew couldn't dodge lightning or even react at all two arcs back? I guess they became 10,000 times faster in 200 chapters

 

[Ryuga21]

I just wanna say Kizaru kicked Hawkins while not being serious and used light to kick at the speed of light but Kizaru didn't make his arms into light when fighting more serious against Rayleigh...

That's makes sense, since Rayleigh has advanced CoO, with should put his reactions at SoL at minimum.

 

[joshpiece]

Same crew that the top in the crew couldn't dodge lightning or even react at all two arcs back? I guess they became 10,000 times faster in 200 chapters

Doesn’t nami dodge lightning... and ussopp?

Also Oda said you have to duck FTL to dodge it

Nevertheless I still think Tempest is making the most sense. And I still think Damage’s proposal about having FTL Op until it gets contradicted by Kizaru is still the best option

 

[Damage3245]

Doesn’t nami dodge lightning... and ussopp?

IMO, those are gag scenes and not that valid for judging their actual combat speed. In the same arc we have Sanji being hit by lightning without being able to evade, and Robin being hit in the head by Enel's lightning.

Nami and Usopp being much faster than Sanji and Robin? Highly questionable.

 

[USklaverei]

Looks good to me. They're all fairly consistant. Also good you distinguish the difference between perceiving and evading.

So, when it's a reaction, I just put the time, but then I'll specify it better, thanks.

 

[PrinceofPein]

nami dodge lightning... and ussopp

No they never did, one piece is gilled with jokes please try and see them

 

[PrinceofPein]

That doesn't make it inconsistent. It means that the crew consistently dodged it.

Okay so I will address this.
1. Its either an outlier/joke feat(which I think it is)
2. The PX beams are not as fast as kizaru beams.
Luffy can dodge the PX beams but couldn't react to kizaru beams??
If anything the beams are not as fast from the start

 

[KingTempest]

I think @CinCameron20 and @Damage3245 make the most sense. It is illogical for Kizaru to be faster in base than with his devil fruit and noticing is not the same as reacting.

So you ignored the entire argument I made of Combat ≠ Travel huh? Alright.

will pre time skip luffy get upgraded too?

Why the hell would Pre Timeskip Luffy get upgraded

Or pre time skip luffy becomes FTL?

Please explain how he becomes FTL.

Same crew that the top in the crew couldn't dodge lightning or even react at all two arcs back?

Luffy kicks a lightning bolt out of mid air.
Usopp dodges lightning.
Nami redirects lightning.
The whole team dodges lightning.

I guess they became 10,000 times faster in 200 chapters

Refrain from using this sarcasm towards me.
We have Kalifa, the next villain, blocking point blank lightning, and we don't call it an outlier. Enough.

IMO, those are gag scenes and not that valid for judging their actual combat speed.

Nami redirecting lightning is a gag scene, then her next villain who blocks lightning makes it very consistent.
Usopp dodging may be a gag scene, but he has no antifeats, so please try again.

Everything that makes them consistent is a gag feat for some reason.

In the same arc we have Sanji being hit by lightning without being able to evade, and Robin being hit in the head by Enel's lightning.

Sanji stood there and SAID GO then LIT A CIGARETTE and DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO DODGE. He intercepted the lightning speed man and kicked his crew out of the way before he could fire.
Context is everything. Don't ignore it because if fits narrative.

Nami and Usopp being much faster than Sanji and Robin? Highly questionable.

Robin perceives lightning and Sanji scales to Luffy who kicked lightning out of mid air. Try again.

 

[KingTempest]

No they never did, one piece is gilled with jokes please try and see them

One piece is filled with FEATS please try and see them.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

One piece is filled with FEATS please try and see them.

you mean the 1010 chapters worth gag reel?

 

[joshpiece]

No they never did, one piece is gilled with jokes please try and see them

Lol.

2. The PX beams are not as fast as kizaru beams.
Luffy can dodge the PX beams but couldn't react to kizaru beams??

Beams are made by Vegapunk who specifically modeled them after Kizaru, Yk the man who’s technology is said to be 500 years advanced.

Man can make DNA altering fruits that turn you into a dragon but can’t make a Sol laser?

 

[Damage3245]

The whole team dodges lightning.

We see them running away from an area where lightning is landing. This is not the same thing as dodging lightning bolts. This is not a calcable feat.

Nami redirecting lightning is a gag scene, then her next villain who blocks lightning makes it very consistent.

I was referring to Nami comedically jumping out of the way of lightning, not her redirecting it.

Usopp dodging may be a gag scene, but he has no antifeats, so please try again.

You don't need antifeats to detirmine whether or not something is gag scene.

Sanji stood there and SAID GO then LIT A CIGARETTE and DIDN'T EVEN TRY TO DODGE. He intercepted the lightning speed man and kicked his crew out of the way before he could fire.

I'd question why Sanji couldn't kick them out of the way then try to dodge the lightning tbh. Maybe it was just a scene of him being cool for the same of him being cool. Oh well.

Robin perceives lightning and Sanji scales to Luffy who kicked lightning out of mid air. Try again.

"Percieves lightning"? Enel pretty clearly telegraphed his attack by pointing his electrified hand at her, and she failed to react menaingfully in any way before the lightning hit her in the face.

 

[KingTempest]

Oda says this.

SBS Volume 98

This is the collection of SBS sections from Volume 98. D (Dokusha means Reader) O (Oda) D: Oda-sensei! Who would've thought there'd be an UFO in a place like this!! The SBS has started. – P.N. A man who has been acknowledged by Higuma O: What's that—-?!! Hold up, that just seems to be a...

onepiece.fandom.com

D: If Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, and Franky were to become ability users, then what kind of fruit do you think they would have eaten? -P.N. 420-land

Nami: Goro Goro no Mi (Rumble Rumble Fruit) (lightning human)

Nami: A true weather lady, now no one can stop her anymore (apart from Luffy).

But Nami scales to Brulee who could react to her lightning attacks.
Why would Oda say she's unstoppable while she's slower, huh?

And I swear, all I see is

"Why would Oda make him eat a fruit that makes him slower????"

His attack and movement can be SoL but his combat can be faster.

If a high tier with no devil fruit now eats Enel's fruit, they'd be faster than their own fruit.

This isn't an issue

Please ignore this. Please. Because the argument from "I don't think it would be right if" all these fallacious arguments.

We see them running away from an area where lightning is landing. This is not the same thing as dodging lightning bolts. This is not a calcable feat.

The previous page, no lightning.
Out of nowhere, they're all running and jumping and flying away.
They dodged multiple lightning bolts.

I'd question why Sanji couldn't kick them out of the way then try to dodge the lightning tbh. Maybe it was just a scene of him being cool for the same of him being cool. Oh well.

Him pulling out a cigarette shows that the scene is PIS.

"Percieves lightning"? Enel pretty clearly telegraphed his attack by pointing his electrified hand at her, and she failed to react menaingfully in any way before the lightning hit her in the face.

Did I say she reacted? Not at all. I said she perceived it via all the light in her face before she got electrocuted.

 

[Damage3245]

Why would Oda say she's unstoppable while she's slower, huh?
And I swear, all I see is
"Why would Oda make him eat a fruit that makes him slower????"

"Unstoppable" doesn't mean "fastest there is."

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Please ignore this. Please. Because the argument from "I don't think it would be right if" all these fallacious arguments.

If a Top Tier ever eats Enel's fruit and shows that they're faster than their lightning attacks, then I'll acknowledge that they're faster than they're lightning attacks.

They dodged multiple lightning bolts.

Considering that they're dodging cloud-to-ground lightning which would be from a fair distance from them, they don't actually need to be comparable in speed with the lightning to evade it.

Him pulling out a cigarette shows that the scene is PIS.

I agree it is PIS.

But I do still think that Nami and Usopp flopping around all over the place and evading lightning is a gag scene as well and could easily be described as just PIS for Enel.

Did I say she reacted? Not at all. I said she perceived it via all the light in her face before she got electrocuted.

Sure, but I don't think it is too relevant. Her failing to react is the more meaningful aspect here. She could not avoid a telegraphed bolt of lightning to her face that she could see coming.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay so I will address this.
1. Its either an outlier/joke feat(which I think it is)

Your views have no weight on this argument.

2. The PX beams are not as fast as kizaru beams.
Luffy can dodge the PX beams but couldn't react to kizaru beams??

Send scans of Luffy not reacting to Kizaru's beams when we see Luffy running and we see the beam fired to his face from Kizaru.

If anything the beams are not as fast from the start

Prove it.

 

[KingTempest]

"Unstoppable" doesn't mean "fastest there is."

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Why would he make her eat a fruit that makes her slower?

If a Top Tier ever eats Enel's fruit and shows that they're faster than their lightning attacks, then I'll acknowledge that they're faster than they're lightning attacks.

All these "if"s. We're not waiting hundreds of chapters to see if something happens.

Considering that they're dodging cloud-to-ground lightning which would be from a fair distance from them, they don't actually need to be comparable in speed with the lightning to evade it.

Did they not react to lightning?

But I do still think that Nami and Usopp flopping around all over the place and evading lightning is a gag scene as well and could easily be described as just PIS for Enel.

Pis for Enel, who has 1 arc worth of feats.
Maybe Enel's the antifeat.

Sure, but I don't think it is too relevant. Her failing to react is the more meaningful aspect here. She could not avoid a telegraphed bolt of lightning to her face that she could see coming.

Wait.
Is your argument

Nami and Usopp being much faster than Sanji and Robin? Highly questionable.

I could say this with so much of our scaling from before and it wouldn't mean much.
We work off of feats, not headcanon.

If Nami's MFTL off of a feat then she's MFTL off of a feat.

Saying that the girl who works with lightning should be slower than someone else because of reasons has no weight.