Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 3 is Real

[Zabazab]

You can just say you don't want to discuss it, without lying.

And sometimes a match is a stomp- in fact it often is. I don't want to debate a stomp one way or the other. Downplaying doesn't make things fair it muddies the truth.

 

[Fezzih_007]

You can just say you don't want to discuss it, without lying.

But I like lying.
But yeah i could just say i don't to discuss It, that's true.

And sometimes a match is a stomp- in fact it often is. I don't want to debate a stomp one way or the other. Downplaying doesn't make things fair it muddies the truth.

This is kinda weird, but i don't remember downplaying any Re:ZERO character when the match is about a stomp

Well, there's that the Satella vs The tournament of Power of Dragon Ball i guess, but i don't think that count because.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

But I like lying.

Guilty! Also you were a chornic liar?

But yeah i could just say i don't to discuss It, that's true.

This is kinda weird, but i don't remember downplaying any Re:ZERO character when the match is about a stomp

Well, there's that the Satella vs The tournament of Power of Dragon Ball i guess, but i don't think that count because.

Btw you can go and put your name under the ReZero opponent/hater/ non supporter in the re zero page of vsbattle

 

[Fezzih_007]

Lmao, ME a Re:ZERO hater, totally..

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Lmao, ME a Re:ZERO hater, totally..

I agree fra

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

ANYWAYS this is the 3rd matchup of the day and i hope to god that i didnt end up making another stomp otherwise i just had a hatrick failure streak

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-sin-archbishop-of-gluttony-vs-douma.155809/

 

[Fezzih_007]

Why you just make Re:ZERO matches?

 

[VortechsTG]

ANYWAYS this is the 3rd matchup of the day and i hope to god that i didnt end up making another stomp otherwise i just had a hatrick failure streak

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-sin-archbishop-of-gluttony-vs-douma.155809/

Yeah... I hate to break it to you

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Why you just make Re:ZERO matches?

Surprise surprise my favorite seires is ReZero and its the one i am most interested in, also I am thinking about making proper mushoku tensei pages

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Yeah... I hate to break it to you

No way, i am dead sure this is not a stomp ;-;

 

[Zabazab]

Quick question regarding Ley and Roy, since the two of them do not share meals unlike with Rui, shouldn't they not share stolen skills?

For example, Roy should not be able to use the Leaper technique or Palm of the Fist King, and Ley should not be able to use Ultimate Palm or Twilight Mage.

Or, since they share their meals with Rui and she is considered to be a part of their profiles, they should both have each others techniques on their profiles.

I'd prefer the former since Rui really should get her own profile eventually, but I just want clarification for how they're considered at the moment, since I'm working on a CRT for mostly Ley and Roy.

 

[VortechsTG]

Quick question regarding Ley and Roy, since the two of them do not share meals unlike with Rui, shouldn't they not share stolen skills?

For example, Roy should not be able to use the Leaper technique or Palm of the Fist King, and Ley should not be able to use Ultimate Palm or Twilight Mage.

Or, since they share their meals with Rui and she is considered to be a part of their profiles, they should both have each others techniques on their profiles.

I'd prefer the former since Rui really should get her own profile eventually, but I just want clarification for how they're considered at the moment, since I'm working on a CRT for mostly Ley and Roy.

There are no examples of them using the same abilities so it's probably safe to assume they can only use their own. I'm also unsure if Louis could even use both of their abilities at the same time pre-arc 7 or she could just use the ones of whoever she was possessing.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

They shouldn't have the same abilities, it's just a thing that's been on the profiles for years.

 

[Zabazab]

Right thanks, it'll be in the CRT that'll be ready for when the current top tier CRT concludes.

 

[Zabazab]

Thinking about it, Ram's scaling is actually pretty nutty even at a low-ball. With enough Shackles she and those on her level are almost certainly 8-A even if we assume that a character being "stronger" is like 1.1x stronger and a one-sided stomp is 1.25x stronger.

Hakugei (27.66 tons) < Old Wilhelm < Garfiel < Tiger Garfiel < (2x) 2nd Shackle Ram < Ley <<< (Bare-minimum 1.5x, effortless) 3rd Shackle Ram <<< (One-sided stomp) Warlock Ley <<< (Bare-minimum 1.67x, effortless) 5th Shackle Ram

AP chains tend to hurt by brain if they get too long though, so here's hoping S3 gives a new feat to scale to so that it doesn't get longer...

 

[VortechsTG]

Thinking about it, Ram's scaling is actually pretty nutty even at a low-ball. With enough Shackles she and those on her level are almost certainly 8-A even if we assume that a character being "stronger" is like 1.1x stronger and a one-sided stomp is 1.25x stronger.

Hakugei (27.66 tons) < Old Wilhelm < Garfiel < Tiger Garfiel < (2x) 2nd Shackle Ram < Ley <<< (Bare-minimum 1.5x, effortless) 3rd Shackle Ram <<< (One-sided stomp) Warlock Ley <<< (Bare-minimum 1.67x, effortless) 5th Shackle Ram

AP chains tend to hurt by brain if they get too long though, so here's hoping S3 gives a new feat to scale to so that it doesn't get longer...

The Hakugei should scale about the same as tiger form Garfiel. It's able to be damaged by characters like Old Wilhelm but even just one of the copies was able to knock out Ricardo in one hit. That is quite the impressive feat considering Ricardo is even stronger than Zurgan who broke partial transformation Garf's bones easily. Full tiger form Garf is vaguely above that so they're probably pretty similar. That being said, even base form Ley was able to just tank attacks from Emilia and Julius.

 

[VortechsTG]

To be fair swordsmen do have a weirdly high ap compared to the rest of their physical stats. Like Wilhelm was able to cut off Kurgan's arms without much issue despite him being way physically stronger. Carol was able to cut Shasuke clean in half despite him pouring all of his mana into increasing his durability. Wilhelm cutting the whale copy in half could be due to it being on its last legs. It could be because he was running all along it rather than it actually being a singular slash. Or it could just be another example of weaponry and skill giving very high ap. Either way arc 5 Garf certainly doesn't scale above the whale.

 

[Zabazab]

I though that the main reason for the Hakugei injuring Ricardo was because of it's weight rather than it's AP, but it's also just possible that it's AP > Dura since even like Hetaro can damage the Whale I think.

Garfiel in particular though has a horrific matchup against the Whale lol it would destroy him

 

[VortechsTG]

I though that the main reason for the Hakugei injuring Ricardo was because of it's weight rather than it's AP, but it's also just possible that it's AP > Dura since even like Hetaro can damage the Whale I think.

It's about surface area. Ofc scratching a small section of it's skin is not gonna be as strong of an attack as it slamming into something. That's only a tiny fraction of the damage it can take after all. Imagine scratching a small area of your own skin lightly. That's obviously not gonna be all you can take or dish out lol. They were literally on track to lose against the whale until they trapped it with Flugel's tree.

Garfiel in particular though has a horrific matchup against the Whale lol it would destroy him

Eh, I mean, yeah, if he was in his base form he would have a bad matchup. But Ram only being stated to be twice as strong as his full tiger form leads me to believe it is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay above his partial transformation. If it weren't for the mist's hax I honestly think he could possibly take it on solo with that form. The problem with that form is just that it lacks the skill to take on the opponents that he usually can but the whale is not by any means fast or skilled.

 

[Zabazab]

Main reason I think the Whale is an awful matchup against Garf is that it's an aerial opponent and apparently Garf's fighting strength drops by a significant degree without his Blessing.

 

[VortechsTG]

Main reason I think the Whale is an awful matchup against Garf is that it's an aerial opponent and apparently Garf's fighting strength drops by a significant degree without his Blessing.

It does drop but it really doesn't seem like it's too significant. At least, he isn't gonna drop to the level of someone like Rem. Still, it's a factor to consider. It's just not one I think will make him lose on its own. Not with how strong his tiger form is implied to be.

But this is kinda pointless cause he doesn't really use his toger form anymore so it's impossible to directly scale it to anyone but Ram.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Can someone explain to me something? In the Shaula page:
Attack Potency: City level (Can easily kill everyone inside the Pleiades Watchtower, including Emilia. Killed Roswaal L. Mathers in Tsugihagu IF.
The justification for the 7-B rating is...
So she can Emilia, yes, but Emilia don't have 7-B durability, and because the loop happened offscreen, we don't know if she scales to her awakened stated since we never seen she using against Shaula.
Same with Roswaal, he just 7-B with barriers. Altrought, i din't finish Tsugihagu IF, so i don't know if he used barriers agaist Shaula, might be wrong in this one.

So Shaula still 7-B, because of the Reid justification, but this two justification above having me scrating my head, if someone could explain i would apreciate.

 

[Zabazab]

So she can Emilia, yes, but Emilia don't have 7-B durability, and because the loop happened offscreen, we don't know if she scales to her awakened stated since we never seen she using against Shaula.

This is to illustrate that Shaula is incomparable in strength to everyone the Warchtower. They're all complete fodder to her which suggests she's simply not on their level. No one is able to fight her, not even Emilia (the generally strongest) or Ram (the technically strongest).

Same with Roswaal, he just 7-B with barriers. Altrought, i din't finish Tsugihagu IF, so i don't know if he used barriers agaist Shaula, might be wrong in this one

She might have assassinated Roswaal, though imo it's unlikely due to Roswaal's IA being good enough to dodge a fatal blow from casual Cecilus- but this again mostly to provide supplimentary evidence.

The Reid one is self-explanatory, Reid is likely island level and Shaula can force him to try every so often.

 

[Fezzih_007]

This is to illustrate that Shaula is incomparable in strength to everyone the Warchtower. They're all complete fodder to her which suggests she's simply not on their level. No one is able to fight her, not even Emilia (the generally strongest) or Ram (the technically strongest).

This still would make her 8-B trought, her would just upscale for them.

She might have assassinated Roswaal, though imo it's unlikely due to Roswaal's IA being good enough to dodge a fatal blow from casual Cecilus

Shaula have homing attack and Danmaku, she could hit him easy peasy.

- but this again mostly to provide supplimentary evidence.

Hm... i just think the supplimentary evidence is kinda week.

The Reid one is self-explanatory, Reid is likely island level and Shaula can force him to try every so often.

Ok but like, she downscale heavily then to Reid.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Ok but like, she downscale heavily then to Reid.

And it wouldn't even be High 6-C Reid w/Dragon Sword. It would likely be chopstick-using 6-C Reid. Hm... Reid and Reinhard's 6-C ratings are extremely close to baseline 6-C, therefore, would it make sense for Shaula to scale to baseline 6-C via heavily downscaling to Reid?

Shaula have homing attack and Danmaku, she could hit him easy peasy.

Doesn't Roswaal also have access to 7-B barriers? Accounting for Roswaal's extreme skill and IA, he would likely need to dodge Shaula's attack (or move in a certain way so he isn't instantly killed with a headshot) and then use his barriers to essentially become invincible against any and all of his attacks... Then again, Subaru (w/Ram's memories) is a factor here as well.

 

[Fezzih_007]

And it wouldn't even be High 6-C Reid w/Dragon Sword. It would likely be chopstick-using 6-C Reid. Hm... Reid and Reinhard's 6-C ratings are extremely close to baseline 6-C, therefore, would it make sense for Shaula to scale to baseline 6-C via heavily downscaling to Reid?

I mean, she still way weaker than him, so she like heavily heavily downscale from him still.
So either Low 6-C or 7-A.

Doesn't Roswaal also have access to 7-B barriers? Accounting for Roswaal's extreme skill and IA, he would likely need to dodge Shaula's attack (or move in a certain way so he isn't instantly killed with a headshot) and then use his barriers to essentially become invincible against any and all of his attacks... Then again, Subaru (w/Ram's memories) is a factor here as well.

Yeah like, he killed everyone with a plan in the Gluttony IF, so is kinda hard to say if Shaula actually fought him, or are able to caught him complety by surprise.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I mean, she still way weaker than him, so she like heavily heavily downscale from him still.
So either Low 6-C or 7-A.

Yeah like, he killed everyone with a plan in the Gluttony IF, so is kinda hard to say if Shaula actually fought him, or are able to caught him complety by surprise.

Reid and Reinhard are about 10.18 Gigatons. Baseline 6-C/Peak High 7-A is 4.3 Gigatons. Since Shaula's heavy downscaling doesn't have the 10%/1/10th thing that Reid and Reinhard have when scaling with Volcanica, Shaula likely would remain in the same tier as them... but y'know, heavily weaker.

Yeah like, he killed everyone with a plan in the Gluttony IF, so is kinda hard to say if Shaula actually fought him, or are able to caught him complety by surprise.

Yep. Damn that vaugeness.

 

[Zabazab]

I mean, she still way weaker than him, so she like heavily heavily downscale from him still.
So either Low 6-C or 7-A.

I don't like the idea of her scaling that high currently since we have seen her dead (likely killed by Rai, who tbf can get really strong) so I'm fine with her being city level atm.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Wasn't Reid also walking around? ... Well a mix of Reid and Roy, anyways, so it could be possible that Reid killed her or smth. idk, am just throwing out ideas. It is also possible that Shaula's name and memories were eaten (since it wouldn't really be hard for ley or roy to get her name via eating Emilia's/Ram's/Beatrice/Anatasina's memories and just poking Shaula afterwards) and she promptly got killed after she turned into a vegetable.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Reid and Reinhard are about 10.18 Gigatons. Baseline 6-C/Peak High 7-A is 4.3 Gigatons. Since Shaula's heavy downscaling doesn't have the 10%/1/10th thing that Reid and Reinhard have when scaling with Volcanica, Shaula likely would remain in the same tier as them... but y'know, heavily weaker.

Ehhhh, same tier is kinda weird, because the justification is like:

Can force Reid to use both hands 1/10 times in battle

Like, forcing someone to use both hand some times, like not even says if Reid uses more strenght, just that he uses both hands, i don't think this enough to justify being in the same tier, she like heavily weaker than him still. A possibly or Likely rating would be the most ok.

Yep. Damn that vaugeness.

Offscreen Moment Of Awesome is my most hated trope, i would like to see Subaru and Shaula killing every Re:ZERO cast.

 

[Zabazab]

We do see the Gluttony IF duo effortlessly murder Garfiel and Otto, everyone else they drown, and they get Reinhard to **** off by forcing him to chase a Hell's Snipe that would hit Felt.

 

[Zabazab]

Also been on my mind for a bit: Ram's in-universe explanation of Shackles are so useless and wrong and it hurts. According to the novel, each Shackle binds 10% of Ram's might as the Oni God, with there being 10 total Shackles.

This makes sense until you realize Oni God Ram is stronger than god-damn Sekhmet, Regulus, and Puck. You can at most argue she is comparable to Volcanica. If one Shackle was = 10% power, then Arc 2 Ram could one-shot everyone on the planet not named Reinhard.

In reality the Shackles are exponential:
1st Shackle = Rem level
2nd Shackle = >2x Tiger Garfiel level, can contend with Ley
3rd Shackle = Completely effortlessly shitstomping Ley Batenkaitos
5th Shackle = Completely effortlessly shitstomping Warlock Ley who shitstomped 3rd Shackle Ram. This is the only one that has actually acts the way it is described- being half of Ram's power.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

This makes sense until you realize Oni God Ram is stronger than god-damn Sekhmet, Regulus, and Puck. You can at most argue she is comparable to Volcanica. If one Shackle was = 10% power, then Arc 2 Ram could one-shot everyone on the planet not named Reinhard.

If I recall correctly, wasn't that statement of Oni God Ram only for a purely hypothetical Ram that never lost her horn as a child or smth?

 

[Zabazab]

If I recall correctly, wasn't that statement of Oni God Ram only for a purely hypothetical Ram that never lost her horn as a child or smth?

Ram without Shackles = Full Power Ram.

The horn just controls the absorption and management of the infinite volume of mana in the atmosphere, she can technically still use full Oni God power but without her horn it'd kill her.

You can call full-power Ram hypothetical since she can't achieve it unless Subaru pulls some army-wide Cor Leonis, but at full power Ram is indeed a top 5 in her verse.

 

[VortechsTG]

Can someone explain to me something? In the Shaula page:
Attack Potency: City level (Can easily kill everyone inside the Pleiades Watchtower, including Emilia. Killed Roswaal L. Mathers in Tsugihagu IF.
The justification for the 7-B rating is...
So she can Emilia, yes, but Emilia don't have 7-B durability, and because the loop happened offscreen, we don't know if she scales to her awakened stated since we never seen she using against Shaula.
Same with Roswaal, he just 7-B with barriers. Altrought, i din't finish Tsugihagu IF, so i don't know if he used barriers agaist Shaula, might be wrong in this one.

So Shaula still 7-B, because of the Reid justification, but this two justification above having me scrating my head, if someone could explain i would apreciate.

Honestly, I agree the justification is a bit strange. But she can beat all of the bishops besides Regulus. That puts her weeeeeeeell into 7-B. I could even argue that at one point Tappei implied she is actually stronger than Daphne but again that's very vague so there'd be no point. Not to mention her being able to make Reid use two hands. She's obviously well above someone like Grimm lol.

 

[Zabazab]

I guess you could also add things like her assisting in facing the Calamity, but she's not got a lot of combat feats beyond offscreen murder and wiping out hoardes of Witchbeasts.

The Archbishop statement won't really prove anything sadly until Cappy maybe gets upgrade.

 

[VortechsTG]

I guess you could also add things like her assisting in facing the Calamity, but she's not got a lot of combat feats beyond offscreen murder and wiping out hoardes of Witchbeasts.

The Archbishop statement won't really prove anything sadly until Cappy maybe gets upgrade.

I feel like the fact that Rein and Reid one-tap Wilhelm with a fraction of their power but have to somewhat try against Shaula is good enough proof tbh. Though Capella does also need an upgrade.

 

[Zabazab]

I wonder if Wilhelm should get NPI for cutting the Unseen Hand.

A silver flash ran across the sky, and droplets of blood spurted from the woman’s neck.

“If the human launching the attack is in plain sight before you, it can be anticipated, invisible or not. By watching the movement of her eyes, feeling her hostility, reading how she breathes as she aims, it was all too clear.”

The Sword Devil made that frightening declaration having completely anticipated the pitch-black, evil hands, striking them down with his sword. Without exaggeration, his evasive timing was perfect; his talk of reading her breaths was no mere boast. His shocking combat skill had blunted the advantage posed by the invisible hands. - Volume 8, Chapter 2, Section 8

 

[Zabazab]

The Bishop (really just Greed & Gluttony) CRT I'm working on got a bit bigger than I was planning but it'll be fine I think.

I'm wondering if Regulus qualifies for Type 4 Acausality since timestop means he can't be changed, the source of his invincibility.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I'm wondering if Regulus qualifies for Type 4 Acausality since timestop means he can't be changed, the source of his invincibility.

I mean, would need to have feats to qualify, so maybe a likely or possible rating?