Reinhard van Astrea VS Luffy

[XDragnoir]

Why would he be able to dodge thousands of kilometers of range when speed is equalized? That's kinda nonsensical.

1st, speed equal doesn't remove the possibility of using speed amps, that's why I brought them up in the previous post.

2nd, what does range and dodge have to do with each other? Your question itself is strange, by range did you mean size or something like that? A sniper can have KMs of range, to dodge it you just need to move your head to the side as the size is just that of a bullet (obviously, IRL it's not that easy because speed, but we're not talking about IRL here so you get the point).

3rd, starting distance by SBA is 4KM, this paired with future sight would allow Luffy to see the attack coming way before it's actually close to him, but as I asked in the previous post does this attack actually travel as some kind of EE wave or is it instantaneous?

 

[Phoenks]

Oh btw it doesn't matter since I forgot about blessing of initiative. Which just makes it impossible for Luffy to dodge. Lol.

 

[XDragnoir]

• Divine Protection of Initiative: His first attack on an opponent always lands, and he can never fall victim to surprise attacks.

Feats for that ability? Because Future Sight straight up allows to change the future.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, is that EE even Reinhard's first move? How many fights did he start with it?

 

[Huesito88]

Also, is that EE even Reinhard's first move? How many fights did he start with it?

Intuition

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Feats for that ability? Because Future Sight straight up allows to change the future.

it's kinda like law manipulation... So I don't think that will help in avoiding the first hit no matter how many futures ahead he sees and changes (Basically will continously see himself getting hit in the future even after he sees himself trying to dodge it)

Tho kachon has mentioned the whip whip fruit before

edit: It's somehow probability manipulation instead...?

 

[Zabazab]

Feats for that ability? Because Future Sight straight up allows to change the future.

Beyond him never having failed to land his first attack, I guess not.

Also, is that EE even Reinhard's first move? How many fights did he start with it?

If he won't **** up innocent bystanders, he'll use it immediately, since it doesn't take effort. If he will hurt innocent bystanders, he'll choose to cut down his opponent normally.

(Scan for it not taking effort)

He had gambled upon and unveiled a secret amongst secrets, whilst the opponent had merely swung the sword earnestly, solemnly―― Indeed, he was utterly astounded by that absurd exceeding of norms.

Simultaneously, since he also possessed the emotions enunciating this was how things must be overflowing within his chest, he found his own self to be irredeemable as well.

With a swing of the sword, the world fissured.

That, was the special move of the Sword Saint which transpired when Reinhard swung the sword as well.

 

[XDragnoir]

Beyond him never having failed to land his first attack, I guess not.

Which says pretty much nothing?

How many of these first attacks were unlikely to happen to the point the only explanation is "there's no way to dodge"?

To explain what I mean, I am well aware of characters that have unavoidable attacks, the deal is that they either have more detailed statements as for why it's unavoidable or they have feats where the attack can't even physically land and it still does or the other side has some kind of perfect defense and the attack gets through it regardless.

In sum, I am asking what Reinhard has to sustain the extraordinary claim of "you can't dodge his first attack".

If he won't **** up innocent bystanders, he'll use it immediately, since it doesn't take effort. If he will hurt innocent bystanders, he'll choose to cut down his opponent normally.

(Scan for it not taking effort)

The fight takes place in Central Park by SBA, so I guess he definitely won't use it here then.

 

[Zabazab]

Which says pretty much nothing?

On his page at least, it's under probability manipulation, so I don't think Luffy has a chance to dodge.

The fight takes place in Central Park by SBA, so I guess he definitely won't use it here then.

Then I guess he'll just bisect him normally.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

On his page at least, it's under probability manipulation, so I don't think Luffy has a chance to dodge.

Yall do understand that such probability hax would work after the attack is launched right? Luffy can literally witness what he'll before do before he does it, giving him time to disrupt Reinhard from using such an ability. If he's too far and needs to close distance, he can always pop a speed amp to, along with other ranged ways including his stretchy abilities to intercept Reinhard before hand. The probability hax wont work until after activation, yall making it seem like some causality ability that doesnt have a starting process and as such an ability, using an ability like this against someone who can literally see what u do before u do it is void.

 

[Phoenks]

giving him time to disrupt Reinhard from using such an ability.

It's passive.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Oh yeah Luffy is doing a whole lot when he's at such an AP disadvantage he might as well tickle Reinhard and call it an attack lmfao

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

It's passive.

Kachon buddy, Reinhard can take 2 seconds to charge his blade and unleash an AoE EE slash that spans over thousands of Km

Please..... the ability takes whole 2 seconds to charge and both these guys can react thousands of times lesser than a second and move large distances in that timeframe.... what makes it worse, luffy will see whole seconds ahead beyond time that reinhard will be charging a 2 second attack to then destroy the whole area and its not like he's gonna use this ability as;

If he won't **** up innocent bystanders, he'll use it immediately, since it doesn't take effort. If he will hurt innocent bystanders, he'll choose to cut down his opponent normally.

They're in Central Park due to SBA

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Oh yeah Luffy is doing a whole lot when he's at such an AP disadvantage he might as well tickle Reinhard and call it an attack lmfao

Yea luffy supporters, what can luffy do here against a massive AP disadvantage.

 

[Phoenks]

Please..... the ability takes whole 2 seconds to charge and both these guys can react thousands of times lesser than a second and move large distances in that timeframe.... what makes it worse, luffy will see whole seconds ahead beyond time that reinhard will be charging a 2 second attack to then destroy the whole area and its not like he's gonna use this ability as;

Uhm, no.

Reinhard's initiative ability is a blessing that is passive.

Reinhard's sword strike that carries EE/Spatial hax is what is active. And it wouldn't take 2 seconds. It is equalized to Luffy's speed.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Uhm, no.

Reinhard's initiative ability is a blessing that is passive.

Reinhard's sword strike that carries EE/Spatial hax is what is active. And it wouldn't take 2 seconds. It is equalized to Luffy's speed.

1. Then why was a supporter saying it takes 2 seconds to charge? Is that false info?
2. Luffy again has speed amps. Equalizing speed wont matter as luffy would immediately pop a speed portion the moment he realizes he's gonna get overwhelmed by AOE that erases him. He's gonna be able to pull this off far easier due to future sight.
3. Didnt a guy provide evidence that luffy has resistance to spatial manip? Or am i tripping. Its just a regular sword swing with EE properties and AOE if thats the case, and Luffy can easily evade this.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

And again the ability is still not gonna be used either way as apparently reinhard wont risk killing innocent ppl in the setting

 

[Zabazab]

And again the ability is still not gonna be used either way as apparently reinhard wont risk killing innocent ppl in the setting

If there are innocents nearby he'll choose to bisect Luffy instead.

 

[Phoenks]

Probability manip means Luffy can't dodge it. What more needs to be said?

I think this can be closed.

 

[Kachon123]

Yea luffy supporters, what can luffy do here against a massive AP disadvantage.

All of Luffy's Haki-coated attacks and normal attacks in Gear 5 are durability negation that destroy organs.

 

[Kachon123]

I'm betting on Luffy's Haōshoku Haki knocking out or at least stunning Reinhard for enough time for him to blitz and combo him with a durability negating barrage of giant punches.

 

[DaReaperMan]

All of Luffy's Haki-coated attacks and normal attacks in Gear 5 are durability negation that destroy organs.

Prove that Reinhard's organs are over 50x weaker than he himself is

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

All of Luffy's Haki-coated attacks and normal attacks in Gear 5 are durability negation that destroy organs.

So a hypothetical hit from luffy would destroy Reinhard's organs.

I'm betting on Luffy's Haōshoku Haki knocking out or at least stunning Reinhard for enough time for him to blitz and combo him with a durability negating barrage of giant punches.

I forgot the dude could stun ppl

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Prove that Reinhard's organs are over 50x weaker than he himself is

Isnt the whole point of dura neg being able to attack weakpoints on/in the body of a character? You'd have to prove all of reinhard's organs can witstand force comparable to his own durability.

 

[Kachon123]

Prove that Reinhard's organs are over 50x weaker than he himself is

Unless Reinhard's organs can stretch, they're getting ruptured instantly.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

"Attacking internal structures - An attack that somehow bypasses the upper layers of the body and attacks the internal organs or an equivalent. This can be done in a wide variety of ways. It is considered a form of negation due to the fact that internal structures and specifically parts whose function isn't to support the structure and stability of the body are much easier to injure or otherwise damage."

The wiki accepts internal organs as weakpoints. Reinhard's organs dont seem to scale to where he does without evidence nor does reinhard resist this type of Dura Negation.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Isnt the whole point of dura neg being able to attack weakpoints on/in the body of a character? You'd have to prove all of reinhard's organs can witstand force comparable to his own durability.

Oh so a fly could go through my organs without difficulty assuming it had access to them?

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Oh so a fly could go through my organs without difficulty assuming it had access to them?

Does a fly have enough AP to go through an organ? I think not. But something like a Cat would be able to, no diffuculty.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Does a fly have enough AP to go through an organ? I think not. But something like a Cat would be able to, no diffuculty.

A cat if it tries can also go through skin and muscle with teeth and claws.

But also, a cat isn't 50x weaker, or even a thousand times weaker(closer to the AP advantage here)

 

[Kachon123]

Oh so a fly could go through my organs without difficulty assuming it had access to them?

Prove that the organs within Reinhard's body that's function isn't to support and protect the body (such as the liver and kidney) are more durable than a normal human's.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Prove that the organs within Reinhard's body that's function isn't to support and protect the body (such as the liver and kidney) are more durable than a normal human's.

I believe proving that someone's organs are hyper weak is up to the one saying they are. I'm using the fly example because that is the same difference here, between a human and a fly, chances are that fly has an around 1000x AP disadvantage using powerscaling brainrot.

 

[Kachon123]

I believe proving that someone's organs are hyper weak is up to the one saying they are.

Wrong. The standard assumption for organs like that are that they can not be trained to become more durable, just like in real life. It's the same reason we assume that eyeballs are as durable as normal human eyes even if the character in question is far above where a normal human would scale.

 

[Phoenks]

Prove that the organs within Reinhard's body that's function isn't to support and protect the body (such as the liver and kidney) are more durable than a normal human's.

Pretty sure there was a thread on this that deemed organs no less durable than flesh, since that'd be pretty silly. Organs have to at least be comparable otherwise any attack from someone similar in strength would be lethal since energy doesn't just stop at the flesh, it spreads throughout the body.

Weird argument.

 

[Zabazab]

Reinhard himself possesses and can fight people who use what is effectively a ripoff of Conqueror's Haki

The men were stunned into silence. This was partially due to confusion at the inconsistency of the young man’s speech pattern, and largely due to his glare; they felt completely paralyzed, as if trapped in a never-ending nightmare.

The Masked Knight shrugged his shoulders at the men incapacitated by his gaze. “One more thing: though I feel bad about doing this, I’m going to have to knock each and every one of you out… Hope you understand.”

“The hell are you sayi…” As one of the men voiced his objection to the Masked Knight’s absurd declaration, he suddenly felt as though he was losing consciousness. “What the…?”

Though the man managed to pull himself together before completely blacking out, the same could not be said about the person next to him who was on the ground with his eyes rolled back—in fact, he was not alone. One after another, men collapsed all around, with only a little more than half of the 200 men remaining standing by the end of it.

“—More than half of you remain. I’m impressed. You possess a much stronger core than I expected,” muttered the Masked Knight to himself in surprise after knocking out nearly 100 people just by glaring as he looked around at the men still standing.

“U-Uwahhhhhhh!” One of the men suddenly charged at the Masked Knight with his weapon raised. This last comment acted as the final nudge for him to lose his mind, along with several others who followed this insanity.

Reinhard isn't getting hit

• Divine Protection of Projectile Evasion: All ranged attacks, such as thrown weapons, will change their trajectory to miss him, effectively making it impossible to hit him from afar.

• Divine Protection of Projectile Striking: All of his ranged attacks will automatically hit their target.
• Divine Protection of Initiative: His first attack on an opponent always lands, and he can never fall victim to surprise attacks.
• Divine Protection of First Sight: He will instinctively know how to counter or dodge attacks that he is experiencing for the first time, including surprise attacks, and he will be awakened should he be sleeping. But if he is unable to physically avoid or counter the attack, the Divine Protection will not activate.
• Divine Protection of Second Sight: He will intuitively respond to attacks that he experiences twice or more with a vastly greater speed, including surprise attacks, and he will be awakened should he be sleeping. This effectively causes attacks to not land on him, making it an effective ability against formidable opponents.

Reinhard cannot be killed

• Divine Protection of the Phoenix: Upon death, he is granted a one-time "Continue?" so long as his soul is intact, resurrecting his body and cleansing him of negative effects. He has already used this Divine Protection when he was killed in his fight with the Sin Archbishop Regulus. While this Divine Protection could only be used once and he can't receive the same benefit a second time, he will acquire a new Divine Protection with a similar effect, Divine Protection of the Phoenix – Next, and if that Divine Protection is used, he will acquire Divine Protection of the Phoenix – Next Next, and so on endlessly, as the World won't let him die.

 

[Kachon123]

Pretty sure there was a thread on this that deemed organs no less durable than flesh, since that'd be pretty silly. Organs have to at least be comparable otherwise any attack from someone similar in strength would be lethal since energy doesn't just stop at the flesh, it spreads throughout the body.

I've never seen such a thread, and that wouldn't make sense. Energy doesn't just stop at the flesh, but when your muscles, fat, and skin are super-durable, the energy instead spreads out within that layer instead of penetrating deeper within to internal organs. It's the same concept as medieval armor lessening the brunt of blunt force by spreading the impact throughout the metal instead of the body of the person.

 

[Phoenks]

Energy doesn't just stop at the flesh, but when your muscles, far, and skin are super-durable, the energy instead spreads out within that layer instead of penetrating deeper within to internal organs. It's the same concept as medieval armor lessening the brunt of blunt force by spreading the impact throughout the metal instead of the body of the person.

The energy does often end up penetrating deeper into the internal organs though. This is how you can incapacitate someone with gut punches/head punches in general.

What you're saying doesn't make sense.

Why are we even talking about this as though it's a blunt attack anyway. Reinhard is hitting him with an undodgeable attack that has many times higher AP than him - and it's from a frickin SWORD.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

A cat if it tries can also go through skin and muscle with teeth and claws.

Ok we're arguing piercing damage now? Lemme change out a cat with a average 10 year old child. They would be able to crush, stretch it and bisect it with their bare hands. Around this age they'd be 10-C, and as we know organs are very low within the 10-C range so another 10-C animal would be able to accomplish the same result if u wanna keep going.

But also, a cat isn't 50x weaker, or even a thousand times weaker(closer to the AP advantage here)

And this changes what? And a organ isnt as durable as you're making it out to be. It has nothing to support durability except tender muscle & tissue and these dont function as protector of the organ.

All that yapping session aside. You've yet to provide evidence that reinhard can do something about this type of dura neg without a resistance noted.

 

[Kachon123]

Reinhard himself possesses and can fight people who use what is effectively a ripoff of Conqueror's Haki

Emphasis on the "ripoff" part.

Pre-Timeskip Luffy's will before being able to control his Haōshoku was able to dominate over the will and egos of 100 inside of himself people without flinching, while being filled with just 2 can completely corrupt a person's mind and kill them. Haōshoku Haki can only grow as the user's willpower grows, and being at the top of the One Piece world means your will is capable of dominating the wills of countless people above the level of Pre-Timeskip Luffy.

Luffy's Haōshoku is also many times superior to Cracker's fear aura, which was able to wither the creatures around him and extinguish their souls.

Reinhard if not getting outright knocked out it definitely getting stunned for several seconds.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Why are we even talking about this as though it's a blunt attack anyway. Reinhard is hitting him with an undodgeable attack that has many times higher AP than him - and it's from a frickin SWORD.

Cant he simply just intercept the guy and punch him, messing up his inner parts before its launched? Again the guy literally sees the future. He has speed amps to accomplish closing the distance aswell

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ok we're arguing piercing damage now? Lemme change out a cat with a average 10 year old child. They would be able to crush, stretch it and bisect it with their bare hands. Around this age they'd be 10-C, and as we know organs are very low within the 10-C range so another 10-C animal would be able to accomplish the same result if u wanna keep going.


And this changes what? And a organ isnt as durable as you're making it out to be. It has nothing to support durability except tender muscle & tissue and these dont function as protector of the organ.

All that yapping session aside. You've yet to provide evidence that reinhard can do something about this type of dura neg without a resistance noted.

All of this is not over 1000x weaker. Luffy is practically baseline High 6-A. Reinhard is practically baseline 5-C. The reason we aren't talking about a 6000x AP/dura advantage is becuase Reinhard ain't baseline 5-C, he's a few exatons off.

ALSO, none of this even remotely matters, since Luffy can't even properly kill the man lol