Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 3 is Real

[VortechsTG]

It states his rational appraisal of Ram to match what his Remories are telling him, and I do trust Rai's appraisal given his vast knowledge.

When he became a Warlock he didn't think Ram would stand a chance against him, so his judgement isn't so clouded that he thinks Ram is invincible.

Let's say theoretically he does have knowledge of Regulus' power like you suggest. What says he doesn't think she would have to kill his wives to kill him? And even then he says she might not be able to and would just bfr him.

In that statement it says that none of the bishops could compete with a serious Ram but... that's obviously not true under normal conditions lol. The only conclusion I can come to is that he really means Ram at full power. Otherwise that statement makes no sense.

Tappei does seem to frequently use "serious" to mean at full power. It's probably a translation thing.

 

[Zabazab]

Let's say theoretically he does have knowledge of Regulus' power like you suggest. What says he doesn't think she would have to kill his wives to kill him? And even then he says she might not be able to and would just bfr him.

When did I say that Rai has knowledge of Regulus' power or that Ram could directly kill him? Not even Reinhard can do that so I don't think Ram can.

In that statement it says that none of the bishops could compete with a serious Ram but... that's obviously not true under normal conditions lol. The only conclusion I can come to is that he really means Ram at full power. Otherwise that statement makes no sense.

I don't think so, Rai at this point has only witnessed 3-Shackle Ram, who stomped him. Upon becoming a Warlock he believed that he could defeat Synesthesia Ram who isn't even half as strong as a fully powered Ram, only to be stomped. I don't think he can be talking about a fully powered Ram because then he wouldn't have thought he could handle Ram if he knew how strong her true abilities are.

And is there a reason why any of the Archbishops should be able to fight 3-Shackle Ram?

 

[VortechsTG]

When did I say that Rai has knowledge of Regulus' power or that Ram could directly kill him? Not even Reinhard can do that so I don't think Ram can.

"and I do trust Rai's appraisal given his vast knowledge."

There would literally be no reason to trust his appraisal unless he knew Regulus' power. None at all.

I don't think so, Rai at this point has only witnessed 3-Shackle Ram, who stomped him. Upon becoming a Warlock he believed that he could defeat Synesthesia Ram who isn't even half as strong as a fully powered Ram, only to be stomped.

He had Rem's memories.

I don't think he can be talking about a fully powered Ram because then he wouldn't have thought he could handle Ram if he knew how strong her true abilities are.

She couldn't access her full power though. How would he have know how much she could?

And is there a reason why any of the Archbishops should be able to fight 3-Shackle Ram?

Capella is literally about as strong as Roswaal and Regulus is Regulus

 

[Zabazab]

There would literally be no reason to trust his appraisal unless he knew Regulus' power. None at all.

I trust Rai's appraisal of Ram's strength yes. He obviously doesn't know the secret behind Greed, but he's right that there's no way Regulus could ever keep up with Ram, he's just too much of an amateur to actually hit her, even Subaru can avoid him for a while.

He had Rem's memories.

Why would he start talking about the power of Child Ram out of nowhere when it's 3-Shackle Ram he's fighting? The text specifically states his rationality genuinely believes that current Ram would destroy the Bishops because of the strength he saw when she was beating his ass, why would he not be talking about that power?

She couldn't access her full power though. How would he have know how much she could?

He was completely shocked that he couldn't even touch Ram, who was using less than half of her strength, I don't see why this would shock him if he knew the limits of her extreme strength.

Capella is literally about as strong as Roswaal and Regulus is Regulus

I'd actually like a source for the Capella/Roswaal thing bc that sounds nutty.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

My opinion on arc 7 translations i guess.

I have been on this wiki for years, and throughout that time there has been numerous times where i had to wait years for profiles to be fully accurate/up to date. For example it was like years before Ruphas and Alovenus profiles were as up to date as possible, meanwhile instead of waiting on translations 1 guy decided to make Alovenus like 1-A, ignoring all the stuff with her avatars, that caused a ton of problems....

I have no problem waiting a long while to add stuff, when it comes to Re Zero, it isn't super high tiered verse, nor has a complex power system or whatever, so the translations aren't as important.

Since the translations have been looked over by multiple people, i am not too opposed to it, but my completionist nature kicks, i don't want to add anything unless everything possible is there. That's just my preference.

Then there is also just a matter of my time, i am into many different series, i can't be too dialed in to 1 all the time. Going volume by volume as stuff comes out is when i can spend a lot of time on specific series, and even then a lot of stuff i read years ago that i need to reread and work on from the beginning like Slime.

And i am multiple volumes behind in multiple series....

Speaking of volumes, volume 22 is out now so i will read that soon, was in the middle of replaying one of my favorite visual novels.

Edit: Said visual novel i need to re-read multiple series from, hopefully in time for the release of the latest one, sometime this year, fingers crossed, and it's a dead verse so i have to fix in by myself.

 

[Zabazab]

I still very much believe that anything sourced from MTL, even despite being highly scrutinized already, should be taken with more caution than purely human translations.

For a character like Todd, who is not much stronger than Subaru, I think it should be pretty ok.

For more complex and powerful characters like Olbart, Jorna, etc, as well as upgrades for characters based on Arc 7 & 8, the evidence should be looked at more critically, and more context should be checked.

Also tyvm for doing so much consistent work for RZ on the wiki despite being involved in many verses, I rarely see a CRT from anyone other than yourself.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Re Zero is my favorite LN, so of course it gets a lot of love. It's why i decided to spend these last few months just focusing on it alone.

The reality is though unless you have a staff interested in a verse, and participating in it, stuff doesn't get done, or takes a while. I kinda feel bad with Slime, there are constantly a lot of threads for it, which won't go anywhere unless i show up, and it's also a massive verse in terms of characters, doing anything requires a lot of work, so often nothing gets done.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hmm... Is there anymore useful stuff in Tappei's Q&As or have we used all of the useful ones now? Like for scaling or smth.

 

[Zabazab]

Very likely that there are more yes. There's so many of them that you can probably find a useful overlooked one just by searching "[Character] q&a reddit".

The ones that I compiled were limited to just a small number of the cast, I'm honestly scared to look through q&as that must be massive like Emilia's.

I'll be collecting some more eventually, but if you wanna have a sift through them as well then you can probably find cool stuff.

 

[VortechsTG]

I trust Rai's appraisal of Ram's strength yes. He obviously doesn't know the secret behind Greed, but he's right that there's no way Regulus could ever keep up with Ram, he's just too much of an amateur to actually hit her, even Subaru can avoid him for a while.

That's because Regulus refuses to finish off opponents until they start despairing and giving up. He just toys with them until then. According to Tappei Regulus is stronger than Sekhmet so that's probably about how strong a serious Regulus would be.

Why would he start talking about the power of Child Ram out of nowhere when it's 3-Shackle Ram he's fighting? The text specifically states his rationality genuinely believes that current Ram would destroy the Bishops because of the strength he saw when she was beating his ass, why would he not be talking about that power?

It says nothing of the sort. At least not in the quote you sent.

He was completely shocked that he couldn't even touch Ram, who was using less than half of her strength, I don't see why this would shock him if he knew the limits of her extreme strength.

Because he didn't think she could access so much of her power... Idk how this is confusing.

I'd actually like a source for the Capella/Roswaal thing bc that sounds nutty.

It's more about the whole scaling chain but the quote that directly links Capella into it is

"Q: If the witches and archbishops were to fight which side would win?

A: Under the condition of it being the same archbishops, for Greed it will be a complete victory for Regulus. For Wrath it will be a complete victory for Sirius. For Sloth it will be a complete victory for Sekhmet. For Lust it will be a narrow victory for Carmilla. Because Gluttony is a difficult one it will be an equal match."

 

[Zabazab]

It says nothing of the sort. At least not in the quote you sent.

This was at the end of the previous page and got cut off from the quote, sorry.

In the battle immediately prior, his face had suffered damage, and his left eyeball was tumbling as if that eye’s fundus had been shattered. His fangs had been snapped, his tongue torn, blood was ceaselessly cascading down to his jaw, but, none of it mattered.
――Contemplating that Ram, at present, was viewing this spectacle, his innermost heart pulsated.

It's more about the whole scaling chain but the quote that directly links Capella into it is

Hmm is Carmilla strong? I thought she was the second weakest Witch of Sin. Like Envy >> Sloth >>> Pride > Gluttony >> Greed > Lust >>>>> Wrath.

 

[VortechsTG]

This was at the end of the previous page and got cut off from the quote, sorry.

That still doesn't say that...

Hmm is Carmilla strong? I thought she was the second weakest Witch of Sin. Like Envy >> Sloth >>> Pride > Gluttony >> Greed > Lust >>>>> Wrath.

She's the second weakest in a group where the third weakest is equal to Roswaal. And she's barely weaker. Literally the same gap noted between Theresia and Peak Wilhelm.

 

[Zabazab]

That still doesn't say that...

He's talking about Ram at present, so I just do not think he means theoretical Horned Ram. It just doesn't seem likely to me.

She's the second weakest in a group where the third weakest is equal to Roswaal. And she's barely weaker. Literally the same gap noted between Theresia and Peak Wilhelm.

I think assuming the ">" gap used by Tappei is consistent is probably wrong.

Q: Does Carmilla-tan have any fighting ability?

A: Carmilla-tan doesn’t have any. Her personal guards do.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I think assuming the ">" gap used by Tappei is consistent is probably wrong.

Q: Does Carmilla-tan have any fighting ability?

A: Carmilla-tan doesn’t have any. Her personal guards do.

It could also possibly just refer to Carmilla's hax that just fricks over people who can't resist it. Or smth along those lines.

 

[Zabazab]

I assumed that the reason Carmilla narrowly beats Capella is because Capella would fall under her hax. "Carmilla doesn't have any fighting ability" feels pretty straightforward.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

That one qna where the mad rem fan asks if tappei will be punished by Typhon is gold

 

[VortechsTG]

I think assuming the ">" gap used by Tappei is consistent is probably wrong.

It has literally only ever been used for characters who are on the exact same level like Garfiel and Elsa.

I assumed that the reason Carmilla narrowly beats Capella is because Capella would fall under her hax. "Carmilla doesn't have any fighting ability" feels pretty straightforward.

Dude, are you seriously saying that Capella of all people would fall under her hax? In what way would that even be a narrow victory if she's just automatically winning? There is obviously a reason Tappei keeps rating Carmilla's strength amongst the top tiers and that's simply due to her bodyguards.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Dude, are you seriously saying that Capella of all people would fall under her hax? In what way would that even be a narrow victory if she's just automatically winning? There is obviously a reason Tappei keeps rating Carmilla's strength amongst the top tiers and that's simply due to her bodyguards.

Aren't those entirely outside factors, tho? Like... in the sense that they are all dead and Carmilla has no way to revive 'em? Doesn't help that she is dead as frick herself. Hmm.... Thought. Maybe Tappei's rankings are more so him pitting the Witches and Archbishops in their peak or smth? Idk. That is the only way I figure it would be a "narrow victory" for Carmilla... or maybe Carmilla was stronger in Tappei's head back in the day? Again, idk.

 

[VortechsTG]

Aren't those entirely outside factors, tho? Like... in the sense that they are all dead and Carmilla has no way to revive 'em? Doesn't help that she is dead as frick herself. Hmm.... Thought. Maybe Tappei's rankings are more so him pitting the Witches and Archbishops in their peak or smth? Idk. That is the only way I figure it would be a "narrow victory" for Carmilla... or maybe Carmilla was stronger in Tappei's head back in the day? Again, idk.

Why would he be ranking the dead versions of them that can't even actually do anything?

 

[Zabazab]

I also assumed that her Guards would be outside help. I don't really know what I thought "narrow victory" meant, maybe Capella could partially resist Faceless Bride but ultimately fall?

If you think Carmilla should be 7-B with her Guards and that Capella should scale, then you can probably argue it in a CRT.

 

[VortechsTG]

I also assumed that her Guards would be outside help. I don't really know what I thought "narrow victory" meant, maybe Capella could partially resist Faceless Bride but ultimately fall?

If you think Carmilla should be 7-B with her Guards and that Capella should scale, then you can probably argue it in a CRT.

Capella uses hax so she doesn't necessarily have to scale but Carmilla's guards should. But we don't know their abilities or even how many there are so we probably shouldn't. For the purposes of the wiki her page works fine without guards for now.

 

[Zabazab]

There is evidence that one of her "Guards" was a Great Spirit too.

 

[Fezzih_007]

There is evidence that one of her "Guards" was a Great Spirit too.

Which type?

 

[Zabazab]

Not mentioned. But it's why Spirit Eaters were created: specifically to hunt down (probably) Carmilla.

 

[VortechsTG]

Not mentioned. But it's why Spirit Eaters were created: specifically to hunt down (probably) Carmilla.

Is there more evidence than that? Spirit eating is just a powerful ability anyway.

 

[Zabazab]

Is there more evidence than that? Spirit eating is just a powerful ability anyway.

This quote is pretty much it when it comes to the "why" behind Spirit Eaters being created.

Created in ancient times to oppose a lone Witch who charmed all, whom even the wordless Great Spirit obeyed, they were beings devised for the purpose of fighting, much like the Oni Clan that could sense Miasma.

After the death of that Witch, the Spirit Eaters of the present day had lost their original purpose, but zeroing in on that power and utility, a faction within the Vollachian Empire sought to restore them.

 

[Zabazab]

Very cool that similar to her usual Ice Brand Arts and trump card Absolute Zero, Emilia has another english-name spell that can change the season of a city to Winter.

Emilia: “――Ice Age.”

Around Emilia, as she muttered this, the world started to lose its heat at a furious pace.

The air slowly cooled, white snowflakes began falling gently from the chilling sky. Rapidly, without exemption, Emilia blanketed the city’s perimeter with cold.

With great care, adjusting the magic power, being cautious to not overdo it.

She could not afford to err, and let the city turn to ice like the Great Forest of Elior, Emilia’s homeland.

Needless to say, even if she had thoughts of melting it later, to cool it down to the point of suspended animation, like Regulus’s wives, was strictly forbidden.

All Emilia had to do, was to bring an unbearable Ice Season to lands unacquainted with the cold, those of the Empire.

The biting cold wind, the falling white snowflakes accumulating, the white breath of the magical season of ice, would cover the Fortress City struck by this flying dragon cataclysm. - Arc 7 Chapter 57B "I Don't Mind Being Called a Moron"

The difference between Pre-Timeskip and Post-Timeskip Emilia is really crazy, and she's still got 2 more "transformations" to go through...

 

[VortechsTG]

This quote is pretty much it when it comes to the "why" behind Spirit Eaters being created.

Ah, I actually remember this now.

 

[Phoenks]

Here's a simplified version on how I would scale top tiers:

The Dragon Sword Reid is High 6-C scaling to it's casual feat of dispersing clouds.

Satella should be a solid High 6-C for being able to match Reinhard with the Dragon Sword in an endless battle.

Reid and Volcanica should be High 6-C scaling to Satella.

Reinhard would be High 6-C physically scaling to Reid, who he would have a tough battle against even without the Dragon Sword.

I think Reinhard should be High 6-C, higher with the Dragon Sword Reid

 

[Fezzih_007]

Possibly​

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

If you want to upgrade then, you would need to pass this wall first.

 

[Zabazab]

I won't object if you're wanting to make that change, but Sekhmet should downscale from Volcanica too at the moment.

Ultimately I don't really care about the solid tier of the top tiers as long as it has basis.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Is Reinhard vs Satella a stalemate because Reinhard is physically High 6-C, or cause neither can kill the other? I don't think we can say either way. Even without Reid, Reinhard vs Satella is still a stalemate due to compatability after all.

Also doesn't Reid need the sword to fight Satella or Volcanica? Or is that Reinhard?

 

[VortechsTG]

The thing is Reinhard can theoretically do the same as his 6-C feat with any weapon but it has to be durable enough to withstand it. He also lacks control and destroys the surrounding area. That's why it's ooc for him to use those kinds of attacks without the dragon sword. But it doesn't mean he can't. He can beat Reid with chopsticks and he has the blessing of unarmed mastery which makes him just as strong without weapons.

Also, if you make this crt we should consider removing animal manipulation because it was revealed there is only one divine protection of magic manipulation which Meili already has.

 

[Zabazab]

Volcanica can put up a competitive fight against Reinhard with the DS.
Legends say that Reid wielded the DS to defeat Volcanica.
Reinhard vs Satella is eternal due to compatibility, but in terms of power difference between them it was stated to be the same as "The difference between Disgaea and Final Fantasy".
Satella would eventually overwhelm Reid in battle if not for Volcanica and the Sage.
Sekhmet beat Volcanica badly enough in the fight that killed her that Volcanica was wary to have her soul be kept as a last line of defense should Satella break free, despite Sekhmet having the best shot out of the Witches.

That's the stuff we know that comes to mind for scaling between the top tiers.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Also while Reid is a High 6-C weapon, it has shown hax capabilities, is Reid, necessary against characters like Volcanica and Satella due to its ap, or is it its hax?

These are some obvious questions that can be brought about solid ratings.

 

[Zabazab]

I don't think the DS was stated to be necessary with Satella, compatibility comes first between her and Reinhard (neither can kill the other generally).

It was implied to be necessary with Volcanica I believe, but I'm not sure if it was stated outright.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

If Reinhard and Reid need/draw the Dragon Sword against people like Volcanica, there is clearly a difference between their base stats and with it.

Going with that logic, what proves their base stats scale, talking about Reinhard and Reid, to a weapon that shows higher feats and is needed to fight the most powerful people?

That part at least is weird to me.

Edit: I would also note the Dragon Sword is an enchanted blade, the most holy and strongest in the world, so it's clearly special, so it can't be compared with the chopsticks or regular blades Reinhard and Reid use.

 

[VortechsTG]

If Reinhard and Reid need/draw the Dragon Sword against people like Volcanica, there is clearly a difference between their base stats and with it.

Not necessarily. You need to take into account the durability factor. It could just be that Tappei is arguing he would lose because it is normally out of character for him to use those attacks without it.

 

[VortechsTG]

I'm kinda neutral on Reinhard and Reid without the dragon sword. But at the very least Volchanica should scale and I definitely get the argument for Satella but again mostly neutral.

 

[Zabazab]

I could be completely off, but personally I would say for the top tiers we have profiles for it goes:
Reinhard (DS) >= Satella > Reid (DS) > Volcanica > Reinhard (base) > Reid (base) >> Sekhmet