Questioning the legitimacy of High 6-A Devil May Cry

[ABoogieYesSir]

What exactly is Vergil´s concept manipulate?

 

[DarkGrath]

What exactly is Vergil´s concept manipulate?

Him using the Yamato to divide himself in two; V and Urizen.

 

[Meshifuari_Arimota]

Since Sparda could do what Yamato, Rebellion and Sparda (sword) can, shouldnt he get concept manipulate?

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

But Dante absorbed it.

 

[Meshifuari_Arimota]

No... Not the Sparda sword. Sparda himself could do everything that the three mentioned above blades could. It's in the DMC 5 Gallery.

So Sparda should get concept manipulate and some abilities that came from these swords to begin with.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You know that is the best idea at this point, asking Itsuno to clarify certain things and for more then just one thing as well, anything that is vague for the series better be clarified by him and that way there wont be any issues later

 

[Dienomite22]

If your gonna ask someone about the game's ask Bingo.Ever since the game and Before The Nightmare released he has openly clarified things about them on his twitter, so it would be best to ask him. Things being vague in the game just might be due to translation errors and lack of quality control (Nico's reports has spelling errors and mistakes).I'd also recommand trying to talk to someone who knows Japanese and has a Japanese copy to see the difference between the translations of Nico's reports and clarification on what the Japanese dub version is saying in certain major scenes vs the English dub version.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

How is that concept manipulation?

 

[SchroKatze]

Did you guys assume that the sword "sliced the idea of Urizen and created the concept of Vergil"? p-p

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

No?

They got concep manip because he is separating one entity in two completely different in the same manner as other characters from fiction.

Or at least that's what i got from the discussion.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

How is that concept manipulation?

I kinda agree with this. How is this Concept Manipulation? I don't remember splitting someone into different entities being Concept Manipulation.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That doesn't quite strike me as conceptual manipulation. It sounds more like a type of body swapping / soul hax. Perhaps some sort of Reality Warping but I don't think that's concept manipulation if I'm honest.

 

[Dienomite22]

It definitely isn't some body swapping/soul hax but I'm also not familiar enough with conceptual manipulation to say it is that as well.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

According to DMC3 manga, demons' shape depends on their name. Sparda was also capable of erasing the names, which led to the demons' erasure as well (scan below). From what I got, the names are concepts, so interacting with them would be considered Conceptual Manipulation. Touhou Project & Bleach (Ichibe in particular) seem to have similar thing going on, which is why I thought the same should apply here. Not really sure if that's true, so feel free to correct me.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

And like Dienomite said, what Yamato did doesn't involve soul hax or anything like that.

Here's the cutscene where Vergil splits himself in two.

 

[Ogbunabali]

He didn't just cut his soul or something. He literally separated his "self", his "ego", into two different forms of himself, demon and human, alongside creating physical manifestations of his trauma as Nelo Angelo, Griffon, Shadow and Nightmare along side it.

 

[Dienomite22]

In the Visions of V manga it indicates that not only Griffon,Shadow and Nightmare were created, Phantom and many other demons were as well and they all were distinct and had their own persona meaning not all all were good which is why V and Griffon made a pact to team up against demons because they were weak which eventually lead to V forming a pact with Shadow and Nightmare and V fighting Phantom and assumingly killing it, unless the next chapter explains what happens to Phantom.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

I agree with Sparda having concept manipulation via Demon names. Their power is tied to their names, as proven.

 

[Maxnumb231]

No one here has debunked the fact that these beastheads in DMC2 novel embodies past, present and future and it seems yall have not had the context of the scaling within the novel.

We have in the same novel that states Chen with beastheads absorbed has no concept of time and space.

 

[Dienomite22]

Not a thing, read the novel.

 

[PaChi2]

No?

They got concep manip because he is separating one entity in two completely different in the same manner as other characters from fiction.

Or at least that's what i got from the discussion.

No concept manip here. Move on.

Also I agree with Kep.

 

[Maxnumb231]

Not a thing, read the novel.

Just read the novel twice. And it completely debunks these downplay. Search up " concept" after u download DMC2 novel there should be a sesrch bar. It completely debunks these downplays by a landslide

 

[Dienomite22]

I already have it and I actually did read it, you are literally lying right now.Since you're confident go ahead post the scans, we'll wait.

 

[DarkGrath]

Just read the novel twice. And it completely debunks these downplay. Search up " concept" after u download DMC2 novel there should be a sesrch bar. It completely debunks these downplays by a landslide

Yeah, look. I've got to be honest with you. I hate throwing around the word outlier, especially in DMC where it is basically just used as an excuse to get out of upgrades nowadays, but the Beastheads being Low 2-C like you've claimed is practically the definition of an outlier. Even if we assume literally every potential feat to be correct and all of them are based off of the greatest possible estimates, at best we have a 3-A feat from Mundus. They may seem relatively close in tier, but the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C is practically infinite. And Mundus is supposed to be stronger than the Beastheads. I hate to ever say things definitively, but unless DMC6 comes out in the future with a billion timeline level feats then there is an absolute zilch chance that DMC would ever get upgraded to Low 2-C.

 

[Meshifuari_Arimota]

there is an absolute zilch chance that DMC would ever get upgraded to Low 2-C.

What are you talking about, DMC was already upgraded to Low 2-C... 2-A eve ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[DarkGrath]

What are you talking about, DMC was already upgraded to Low 2-C... 2-A eve ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Yes, haha. I know about SMT Dante. And honestly, as unlikely as it is, I do still hope SMT Dante is revealed to be canon someday. If he is, that actually would be adequate to get Dante upgraded to 2-A. But that's a biiiig If

 

[DarkGrath]

Actually... that might be worth a look at. We were just talking about contacting Hideaki Itsuno on Twitter, right? And I don't know if it's been confirmed or disproven definitively if SMT Dante is canon. Would he be a source to ask on that topic?

 

[Meshifuari_Arimota]

No. They cant be canon due to different creators and publishers as well as contradictions regarding both universes. Look at it from this perspective, both Bayo and DMC were once a part of the same universe... but after Platinium games took the rights for the franchise, they were separated. If you were to ask Itsuno he would have either ignored you or changed the topic.

And Thank God for that... I might sound like a fanatic here, but as a Christian I would feel really uneasy knowing that Dante "killed" the God I belive in. I probably wouldnt even play any DMC game anymore :I

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Shouldnt this discussion be closed since it was about abigail feat being legit or not and the conclusion was reached,the talk can be moved somewhere else

 

[CinCameron20]

I already have it and I actually did read it, you are literally lying right now.Since you're confident go ahead post the scans, we'll wait.

(15 hours, and counting) xD

Also, SMT Dante basically makes him jump from 7-B/A to 2-A in such a small time-frame. That'd be interesting.

 

[CinCameron20]

I do agree that the "shaking the foundations of the world" statement may be a bit vague, but dismissing Nico's reports as unreliable is pretty dishonest if you ask me.

The quote was used within the very same sentence as this: "his whole "king of hell" gig seemed like nothing--he had the power to shake the foundations of the world." This is not an implication of literally shaking the planet, this is Nico stating that Urizen, with the fruit, had become so much more powerful than Mundus and Argosax that he had the power to completely change the concept on how the world worked. He had the power to take control of both Human and Demon world with powers never seen from the previous god-tiers such as Mundus and Argosax.

If Nico said, word-for-word, "Shake the world/planet itself", i'd shut up, but she's referring to "the foundations" shaking, not "the world" shaking.

@Demon Dante Killah - ^ Hence why I said the grammar supports my claim fully. Not yours.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Why would Urizen care about changing the concepts of a world though,all he wanted was power to beat Dante

 

[CinCameron20]

I don't know. But I'd guess he would have plans after he defeats Dante, but considering how the game went, we will never know his true motives.

Nico just said he had the power to do so... nothing about the motivatio to do so (unintentional reference).

Also, people keep asking me to provide a statement of Vergil moving the tree despite me saying there is none. I'd change my blog title to "Qliphoth moving", but I can't edit my title. Also, Vergil ate the fruit from that specific tree and it was stated to possess more powerful than the tree all together, so Vergil > Tree by default.

 

[Dienomite22]

We know from V that the world was supposed to end during the present day of the game.He said something like "after a month the world will end"

 

[Ogbunabali]

snip

And the very next sentence debunks this.

"He was so damn powerful that he just cast off those vestiges of the Qliphoth that were his weapons and armor. They were only slown' him down."

 

[CinCameron20]

And the very next sentence debunks this.

"He was so damn powerful that he just cast off those vestiges of the Qliphoth that were his weapons and armor. They were only slown' him down."

? Debunks what exactly?

 

[Ogbunabali]

She was clearly talking about physical power, not some superficial or political power like your claiming it was.

 

[CinCameron20]

Uhm... You, just like everyone else "debunking" me, are misinterpreting what I'm saying.

I am saying he is more far powerful than Mundus and Argosax (Clearly talking power-level/physical), and would be strong enough to take over both Demon and Human world. "The 'King-of-Hell gig means nothing" after Urizen ate the fruit. Literally how did you misunderstand this? Nothing supports shaking the planet.

Getting tired of repeating myself. Instead of trying to discredit me, re-read.

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't need to "debunk" you, the whole article does, since all it does is talk about how awesome his physical power is. While you are just using headcanon.

 

[Dienomite22]

I am saying he is far powerful than Mundus and Argosax, and would be strong enough to take over both Demon and Human world. "The 'King-of-Hell gig means nothing" after Urizen ate the fruit. Literally how did you misunderstand this? Nothing supports shaking the planet.

But both Mundus and Argosax were already strong enough to take over both the human and demon world but they just got nae nae'd by Sparda before they could do it.