Question about dragon ball universe size

[AKM sama]

No need to, Chouzenshuu commits the same mistake of calling the sectors both areas and galaxies, it's self contradictory.

It was expected. Chozenshuu is nothing but a trimmed down version of Daizenshuu published by the same entity. I did not find any source claiming that Toriyama explicitly worked on creating it. He might be listed as the author, same as the Daizenshuu, even though he did not work on it. All I found was that he did interviews and designs, which he does for all guides. His interviews are always published on the first page where he either says something or thanks the people for creating the guides.

"The first Chōzenshū volume is a combination of “Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide” and “Daizenshuu 4: World Guide”, both of which are manga-oriented guides. The second and third Chōzenshū volumes are a combination of the various anime-based books, including “Daizenshuu 3: TV Animation Part 1”, “Daizenshuu 5: TV Animation Part 2”, “Daizenshuu 6: Movies & TV Specials”, and the final supplemental daizenshuu, “TV Animation Part 3”. The fourth and final Chōzenshū volume is based on “Daizenshuu 7: Dragon Ball Large Encyclopedia”, with updated data and information."

 

[Vietthai96]

Akira supervised Chouzenshu but he keep what was already in Daizenshuu and expanding it with new informations due to the new BoG movie with new lore such as God Of Destruction, Angel, etc....and polished the artwork

 

[AKM sama]

Akira supervised Chouzenshu but he keep what was already in Daizenshuu and expanding it with new informations due to the new BoG movie with new lore such as God Of Destruction, Angel, etc....and polished the artwork

Can you cite literature for this? I mean... source.

 

[Vietthai96]

Can you cite literature for this? I mean... source.

That what i was remember, Chouzenshu was released for a long time so i need to dig back many things
I'm on phone and still working, so i will return later to do research

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out, Vietthai.

 

[Vietthai96]

Thank you for helping out, Vietthai.

No problem, however i can't guarantee to find it, due to Chouzenshu was released in 2013 iirc, nearly 10 years ago

 

[AKM sama]

I certainly didn't find it. So I'm gonna assume his involvement in it is the same as in the Daizenshuu until you find it.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

do we have a set size for those galaxies?

 

[Vietthai96]

do we have a set size for those galaxies?

what do you mean??

 

[Arthex]

what do you mean??

Ig he means what is the fixed size for each galaxy, like 1 million light year, 10 million ly etc.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

what do you mean??

Not much, just curious, as to what the size assumption is

 

[Vietthai96]

Ig he means what is the fixed size for each galaxy, like 1 million light year, 10 million ly etc.

Not much, just curious, as to what the size assumption is

idk, however i think we can assume it as equal as our Milky Way Galaxy

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

idk, however i think we can assume it as equal as our Milky Way Galaxy

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1ec3ef4ae9496473ad87679b766b3b6e-lq

what does this mean?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I'll be responding now.

 

[Arthex]

I'll be responding now.

Pog, gigachad comeback when?

 

[Vietthai96]

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1ec3ef4ae9496473ad87679b766b3b6e-lq

what does this mean?

Outer Space is the Universe, the statement mean there is infinite amount of galaxies

 

[Arthex]

Infinite amount of galaxies = Infinite mass, no?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Infinite amount of galaxies = Infinite mass, no?

Yes, but how is it relevant?

 

[Arthex]

Yes, but how is it relevant?

Dont you technically need be "infinite" in size to contain infinite mass? ( considering its fiction, i wouldn't be surprised if it uses different logic )

 

[Quantu]

If there's infinite galaxies, then the size would be infinite anyway so the mass doesn't matter regardless in that case

 

[Arthex]

Well thats a another way of seeing it ig and it makes sense aswell.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

idk, however i think we can assume it as equal as our Milky Way Galaxy

I mean, if the dragonball universe only has 4 galaxies, I think it'd be safe to say that they DON'T scale to our galaxies, assuming we're using the "Galaxy" translation rather than just saying it's a direction from the center that's being referred to (Which is how it's usually interpreted, but I guess it's a contradiction in order to assist people's arguments)

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Ig he means what is the fixed size for each galaxy, like 1 million light year, 10 million ly etc.

Also, I hate to be that guy, but can you use They/them? I just noticed

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Yes, it is the translated text from Daizenshuu. No herms did not debunk this. He confirmed it.

He straight up says what the Daizenshuu says and it is one to one with the translated text.
That a collection of planets forms a nebula, and a collection of nebulas forms a galaxy.
That there are four galaxies in the DB universe.

You’re right. He quotes the following image.


This was translated by the same person who also translated the following image.

I'll be referring to this as the blue translation for simplicity. It claims that the the solar system is a galactic nebula, which, again, is something herms spoke against when provided with the original kanji, where he also says uses "galaxy/galaxies" when taking about the northern region alone.

What herms said on twitter and what the translations said are different.

Selective reading and selective blindness. He lays two options and then goes on to say that Daizenshuu uses the interpretation where there are only 4 galaxies. He goes on to list that is is mentioned a total of 2 times in Daizenshuu 7 and 2 other times in other guides.


Lack of reading comprehension.
1. He uses galaxy/galaxies interchangeably only where it is not clear whether it is meant in plural or singular. When it is clear by the context, he uses only one of those.
2. He also says which possibility the Daizenshuu follows.
3. The "open to interpretation" part is referring to the claim that the galaxies exist infinitely.

He is claiming very objectively Daizenshuu uses the interpretation where there are only 4 galaxies. He goes on to list that is is mentioned a total of 2 times in Daizenshuu 7 and 2 other times in other guides.


Whenever japanese use plurals, they are usually either preceded with a number and a counter, or simply made understood through context.

"The universe has ginga"
It can be translated as "the universe has galaxy" or "the universe has galaxies". A bit ambiguous but context would say that most of the times it is used as plural in this case.

"One ginga"
Since there is a number, it can only be translated as "one galaxy". Not "one galaxies".

"Few ginga"
Once again, there is a number/counter, so it can only be translated as "few galaxies". Not "few galaxy".

No, galaxy/galaxies cannot be used interchangeably all of the time. Many times the context only allows you to use either singular or plural. The language is not so vague where you can pick and choose what you want to use at any given time.

Let's look at the two statements from Daizenshuu 7 now.

"There is a ruling Kami for EACH ginga"
Since the word "each" is there, it cannot be translated as "there is a ruling Kami for each galaxies". Ginga is used as a singular here, since "each" refers to one. There are no two ways about it. No interchangeability. It is clearly defined through context that ginga in this case is singular.
Which means "there is a ruling Kami for each galaxy". Which ultimately means Daizenshuu says there are 4 galaxies.

EACH

GALAXY

There are 4 Kami.

One for

EACH GALAXY.

Hence,

4

GALAXIES.

"The universe is divided into FOUR ginga"
Since a counter 4 is present here, ginga can only be translated as galaxies. It cannot be translated as "the universe is divided into 4 galaxy". It blatantly says "the universe is divided into 4 galaxies".
There are no two ways to interpret this. 4 means 4. Galaxies means galaxies. The universe is divided into 4 galaxies.

Not 4 groups of galaxies.

ONLY

4

GALAXIES.

And galaxies do not contain more galaxies in it. According to the daizenshuu, they contain nebulae and planets.

Which is what Herms has confirmed not once

Not twice.

But thrice.

And maybe more times.

These are the two instances from Daizenshuu 7 he is talking about where it is blatantly said that the universe has 4 galaxies. And there are more instances in other guides.

I was originally going to go into more detail here, but that's not necessary. Because the "four galaxies" quote comes from the blue translations (under the "living world" portion). I also found the original post in made by herm, which was posted in September 2009, almost 13 years ago.

in 2009, on kanzenshuu, he recites the blue translations word for word to support his point. But in 2019, on twitter, when given the original raws, he says something entirely different than the blue translations. This very likely means that his word in that kanzenshuu post are outdated.

Even if this is incorrect, Daizenshuu 4 describes galaxy illuminations as hundreds of millions of light years, which is far bigger than the biggest galaxy in our universe. Not to mention the blue translations call a galaxy "a gathering of local planets in the universe", which has odd implications to begin with. + the celestial bodies are said to be infinitely expanding.

So even steal-maning your argument, these regions may be called galaxies, but they're definitely not regular ones with the details given to us with all diazenshuu statements.

I am talking about your scans only. The "endless" one is in Daizenshuu 7 which I also posted above. It is in the same para that says there are only 4 galaxies.
Two scans you are using say "infinitely expanding".

Infinitely expanding
Galaxies that are stated to be hundreds of millions of light years wide.

Galaxies don’t do that and are not that big. This solidifies that my interpretation above is correct. This doesn’t even contradict the anime/manga because we're shown many stars and "real" galaxies.

"Space is infinite beyond the stars" comes from the Daizenshuu which we don't follow. And Earth is said to be at the edge of the universe. Not a galactic region.

Universe in DBS can have multiple meanings. I showed you an image of where earth resides and you ignored it. Bulma's statement changes nothing as being on the very edge, as you're implying, would mean they'd have to be outside the living world.

Neutral space means the space that coincides with both U6 and U7. Neutral space doesn't mean a different chunk of space.

Being a space between universes means nothing either. Universes (infinite or finite) are separated by dimensional walls all the time. You’re implying that the universes are connected through celestial bodies. If that were the case then that would mean they're not separated universes.

This would have meant a lot if there was an actual blatant statement that the universe is infinite which did not come from a questionable and contradictory source. Until then, it only means the default. Which is, the universes are shown to be finite. They are said to be finite by having a center and an edge.

This isn’t in context to the daizenshuu but universes period. Just because a universe looks like a ball outside does not mean it finite.

They don't. We have had this discussion about "infinite universe" in the past and it was rejected by most of the staff. Not once, many times. Only Elizhaa and Uchiha said that if the Daizenshuu can be used, then they are fine with it. And that we before my response that goes on to list the problems with cherrypicking. But we do not use it because of reasons I have already outlined. We cannot cherrypick what to use and what not to use from a self-contradictory source.

No definitely more than that.
Confluctor
Elizhaa
UchihaSlayer96
KLOL
LordGriffin1000
Even Ant and DDM are liking both our comments, showing they're neutral.

If you want all of the staff members can be pinged here again to do the same song and dance. But that's my issue, isn't it. The dance never ends. Even though there is a rule against discussing this, here we are... forced to dance again.

If it's the same exact dance why were so many staff on board before you arrived?
If it's the same exact dance why is this thread still open?
If it's the same exact dance why did you feel the need to provide new arguments you never used before?
If it's the same exact dance why would and be unsure what to do here?

It's almost like I presented new arguments.

---

Apologies for the late response. Got busy.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Still, even if this gets accepted, infinite speed is a no go, Whis taking like 30 minutes to arrive Earth, hardly counters it.

Infinite is instant, lasting more than that isn't infinite speed sadly.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Still, even if this gets accepted, infinite speed is a no go, Whis taking like 30 minutes to arrive Earth, hardly counters it.

Infinite is instant, lasting more than that isn't infinite speed sadly.

Traveling an infinite distance in any amount of finite time = infinite speed

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Traveling an infinite distance in any amount of finite time = infinite speed

Well, I still reaaaally iffy about this anyways.

The High 3-A tier or AP would work, but infinite speed is doubtful for various reasons.......

And DB super is full of contradictions, anyways, neutral.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Derailment but infinite speed works for anime. Infinite speed does not work for anyone below gas unfortunately.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Derailment but infinite speed works for anime. Infinite speed does not work for anyone below gas unfortunately.

Gas is not from the anime

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Derailment but infinite speed works for anime. Infinite speed does not work for anyone below gas unfortunately.

Neither Anime nor manga then, both universe's structure is the same till proven otherwise.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Gas is not from the anime

I meant infinite speed does not work for anyone bow gas in manga.

Neither Anime nor manga then, both universe's structure is the same till proven otherwise.

Nah anime doesn't have anti feats, manga does because of gas.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I meant infinite speed does not work for anyone bow gas in manga.

Nah anime doesn't have anti feats, manga does because of gas.

Neither could everyone in the Anime scale, becouse going by that rule, everyone would be Infinite in speed, we know Goku absorbed God Ki into his base form, right?...,from there, the next people who Goku fought pushed him to use at least SS1, literally, everyone.

So it's still an absurd idea to think about, anyways.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Neither could everyone in the Anime scale, becouse going by that rule, everyone would be Infinite in speed, we know Goku absorbed God Ki into his base form, right?...,from there, the next people who Goku fought pushed him to use at least SS1, literally, everyone.

So it's still an absurd idea to think about, anyways.

...so? It's absurd because everyone scales?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

...so? It's absurd because everyone scales?

Yeah, even Bulma who was able to see Frieza's energy Ball coming at her??
Does that mean she has inmesurable reactions....??, I'm sure you know what I mean...

Even Krilin and master Roshi would have inmesurable speed....

Too many inconsistencies regarding this matter.

It's a mess, we like it or not.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Yeah, even Bulma who was able to see Frieza's energy Ball coming at her??
Does that mean she has inmesurable reactions....??, I'm sure you know what I mean...

Even Krilin and master Roshi would have inmesurable speed....

Too many inconsistencies regarding this matter.

It's a mess, we like it or not.

This whole thing is an argument from incredulity. There are no actual inconsistencies, and the bulma example applies whether they had infinite speed or not.

 

[Quantu]

Walk before you run people, we don't know if infinite universe will even be accepted

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I agree with Fluffy, but speed is derailment rn.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

This whole thing is an argument from incredulity. There are no actual inconsistencies, and the bulma example applies whether they had infinite speed or not.

Weird thing the universe is never described as "infinite" in Canon, instead is described as "Big". Not even by Jaco, shenron, not even zuno.

Incredulity is thinking that literally everyone in the show now scales, and that's ridiculous.

Also, Sorbet said that they had conquered "70% of the Universe", we can't just fraction Infinite like that.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Walk before you run people, we don't know if infinite universe will even be accepted

Then amma just swim there brotha.

 

[DemarSL]

Yeah, even Bulma who was able to see Frieza's energy Ball coming at her??
Does that mean she has inmesurable reactions....??, I'm sure you know what I mean...

Even Krilin and master Roshi would have inmesurable speed....

Too many inconsistencies regarding this matter.

It's a mess, we like it or not.

I mean to be fair with this logic Bulma would have MFTL reactions since Frieza at the time was MFTL.