Question about dragon ball universe size

[Vietthai96]

Nah we don't go debunk Infinite speed with that kind of argument, it is the same as AoE Fallacy argument. Also talking about Infinite speed, it is actually consistent with Super Shenron's feat in the last episode where he appeared in all 12 universes at the same time

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Nah we don't go debunk Infinite speed with that kind of argument, it is the same as AoE Fallacy argument. Also talking about Infinite speed, it is actually consistent with Super Shenron's feat in the last episode where he appeared in all 12 universes at the same time

It can’t be proven anyone scales to Super Shenron.

 

[AKM sama]

I'll be referring to this as the blue translation for simplicity. It claims that the the solar system is a galactic nebula, which, again, is something herms spoke against when provided with the original kanji, where he also says uses "galaxy/galaxies" when taking about the northern region alone.

A slight error in translation on that part. Earth resides in the solar system in a galactic nebula, the blue translation is missing a word "in" between both sentences.
This doesn't invalidate both of the following statements:
"There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy"
"Universe is divided into 4 galaxies"
As far as we are concerned, Herms has not spoken about these being errors. In fact, he has used them in his own guide. But he never used the statement about the solar system as it is in any of his explanations. If you are claiming the above two statements are also translation errors just because there was one error in another sentence of another paragraph, why not get it confirmed by Herms again on twitter?

in 2009, on kanzenshuu, he recites the blue translations word for word to support his point. But in 2019, on twitter, when given the original raws, he says something entirely different than the blue translations. This very likely means that his word in that kanzenshuu post are outdated.

Once again, one translation error in one paragraph doesn't invalidate everything else. It's like me saying every word in Dragon Ball manga is wrong because Herms corrected some wrong translation in some random sentence of one chapter. Get it checked by Herms and we can see if he his old word about the relevant statements in particular are outdated or not.

Even if this is incorrect, Daizenshuu 4 describes galaxy illuminations as hundreds of millions of light years, which is far bigger than the biggest galaxy in our universe. Not to mention the blue translations call a galaxy "a gathering of local planets in the universe", which has odd implications to begin with. + the celestial bodies are said to be infinitely expanding.

So even steal-maning your argument, these regions may be called galaxies, but they're definitely not regular ones with the details given to us with all diazenshuu statements.

This is proving my point. Daizenshuu is self contradictory.

Galaxies don’t do that and are not that big. This solidifies that my interpretation above is correct. This doesn’t even contradict the anime/manga because we're shown many stars and "real" galaxies.

This solidifies that the info coming from Daizenshuu is self-contradictory. At one place they describe galaxies as a local group of nebulae and planets. At other parts they describe them as something else. Again, proving my point of why we do not use the Daizenshuu anymore.

Bulma's statement changes nothing as being on the very edge, as you're implying, would mean they'd have to be outside the living world.

????????????????????????
Bulma's statement about Earth being near the edge is pretty clear and consistent with the images. No idea what you're talking about here.

This isn’t in context to the daizenshuu but universes period. Just because a universe looks like a ball outside does not mean it finite.

It does. Until you have a direct statement saying it isn't, the former remains our default position. And the statement comes from Daizenshuu, so yes, it is about the Daizenshuu.

Being a space between universes means nothing either. Universes (infinite or finite) are separated by dimensional walls all the time. You’re implying that the universes are connected through celestial bodies. If that were the case then that would mean they're not separated universes.

This point of yours assumes that they are infinite and only separated by dimensional walls. My point is that they are portrayed as finite and we have no solid reason to believe otherwise, except the questionable and self-contradictory secondary source called Daizenshuu.

If it's the same exact dance why were so many staff on board before you arrived?
If it's the same exact dance why is this thread still open?
If it's the same exact dance why did you feel the need to provide new arguments you never used before?
If it's the same exact dance why would and be unsure what to do here?

Because they might not be present when it was discussed before, or they might not remember it very well. A lot of these people weren't staff or active at that time, and before I arrived and gave reasons for why we do not use the Daizenshuu, your point would have made sense to anybody who did not have full context. And, they also said "if" the Daizenshuu statements are deemed to be valid, it can be used. Not that the daizenshuu statements "are" definitely valid. The agreement was conditional.

The thread is still open because I haven't closed it yet because many people will get enraged. You see, I am in a difficult position here, which is why I am frustrated.

These aren't new arguments. Even in the last thread I have stated the exact same thing. That we don't use Daizenshuu because it is contradictory. And I gave the same reasons for why it is so. You can go back and check if you can find it. I know when I am repeating myself. That's also why I get frustrated.

Ant doesn't keep track of things and doesn't have a memory of a robot. He handles many threads. I have seen him almost accepting the same threads that have been rejected right before him earlier.

@Zamasu_Chan if what you are claiming is true, we have a very easy solution out of this. Get Herms to admit that all these statements about how Daizenshuu claims there are only 4 galaxies a total of 2 times never happened and they were all mistranslations, and I won't have a point anymore. Is that cool?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Guys, bare in mind, a Universe can be ever expanding, but at the same time finite.

Also, DB universe got retconned as "Big" or "vast " in DBS.
Is nowhere mentioned as being "infinite" in canon, instead is described as "Big".
Sorbet said that like 70% of the Universe would be theirs........you can't just fraction Infinite in porcentages becouse it will still be Infinite regardless.....,so that's a good indicator.

Shenron describes it as big, Jaco too, and even zuno.
But no one says that the Universe is "infinite".
Take this as an example; it was said in guides revised by Toriyama that Kienzan can cut everyone regardless of how strong they were, but in DBS it got retconned, as with enough power, someone can tank it with zero damage, such as Jiren.
So this contradictions exist a lot......

And a Universe can have multiple edges and centers like no problem.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

An infinite universe can have empty zones. Hell, even a finite one can. The Sorbet point isn't really a contradiction.

Zamasu never argued for infinite planets or starts or galaxies, he argued space itself is infinite. Which is way different.

Secondary canon is fine, and i still fail to see how the sources are contradictory. I'll let Zamasu respond to those points tho.

 

[AKM sama]

The point isn't what an infinite universe can and cannot have. The point is to get a solid statement about the universe being infinite that does not come from a self-contradictory and questionable secondary source. If it were really the case, wouldn't something like that be mentioned in the primary canon itself when things related to size have been mentioned and portrayed several times without ever hinting at "infinity"?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The Sorbet point isn't really a contradiction.

It is, you can't fraction infinite like that, becouse it still infinite regardless....

And again, the fact that the Universe is never discribed as being infinite in the DBS Anime, instead Big or vast, mean something....

Also, it is based off our actual universe, as mentioned in Daizenshu 4

And Shenron mentions the space as vast, not infinite.
You know, our Universe is finite and expanding. Not infinite.....

The observable universe is finite in that it hasn't existed forever. It extends 46 billion light years in every direction from us. (While our universe is 13.8 billion years old, the observable universe reaches further since the universe is expanding).

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

It is, you can't fraction infinite like that, becouse it still infinite regardless....

And again, the fact that the Universe is never discribed as being infinite in the DBS Anime, instead Big or vast, mean something....

Also, it is based off our actual universe, as mentioned in Daizenshu 4

And Shenron mentions the space as vast, not infinite.
You know, our Universe is finite and expanding. Not infinite.....

The observable universe is finite in that it hasn't existed forever. It extends 46 billion light years in every direction from us. (While our universe is 13.8 billion years old, the observable universe reaches further since the universe is expanding).

We know the size of the observable universe, not of the whole universe.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

We know the size of the observable universe, not of the whole universe.

That doesn't contradict what I just said.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

That doesn't contradict what I just said.

Yes it does. You're assuming Sorbet knows the true size of the universe. And most of all you're assuming that I'm arguing for infinite matter which I'm not.

AKM's counter is way more solid than yours.

 

[Vietthai96]

Guys, bare in mind, a Universe can be ever expanding, but at the same time finite.

Huh, what the hell you talking about??

Also, DB universe got retconned as "Big" or "vast " in DBS.

Big and vast mean nothing in the grand scheme of thing, you can call an infinite universe as big and vast, it doen't contradict anything

Sorbet said that like 70% of the Universe would be theirs

Did you even read or watch Frieza saga???. Frieza only conquering planets for trading, 70% of universe refered to the planet. We never argue with infinite planets, stars, etc....and the Daizenshuu or Chouzenshuu never stated that there is infinite amount of planets, it stated infinite space.

But no one says that the Universe is "infinite".

Why should we need it when the Daizenshuu already mention infinite

Take this as an example; it was said in guides revised by Toriyama that Kienzan can cut everyone regardless of how strong they were

Sources????

And a Universe can have multiple edges and centers like no problem

At this point i don't even know what you talking about

Bulma's statement about Earth being near the edge is pretty clear and consistent with the images. No idea what you're talking about here.

It does

So Galaxy level U7 then

This point of yours assumes that they are infinite and only separated by dimensional walls. My point is that they are portrayed as finite and we have no solid reason to believe otherwise, except the questionable and self-contradictory secondary source called Daizenshuu.

You say Daizenshuu is self-contradictory, while the anime/manga itself also self-contradictory with how it potrayed the "universe model" on-screen

It is, you can't fraction infinite like that, becouse it still infinite regardless....

Fiction, you can fraction infinite, with 100% being infinite itself. And again, we talked about infinite space, Sorbet talking about conquering planet for trading. You can have a finite amount of matter in an infinite universe

Also, it is based off our actual universe

Do you even know that real life have two theories regarding universe?? one is big bang theory which universe is starting from an infinitesimal point and expand itself, the other is infinite universe theory. Even us don't know our actual universe

 

[Confluctor]

The point isn't what an infinite universe can and cannot have. The point is to get a solid statement about the universe being infinite that does not come from a self-contradictory and questionable secondary source. If it were really the case, wouldn't something like that be mentioned in the primary canon itself when things related to size have been mentioned and portrayed several times without ever hinting at "infinity"?

This is also a huge problem with many other verses, where a lot of cosmology stuff comes from guidebooks and the source material doesnt even mention anything about it or even something close to it. I will see if I can find a list of them somewhere

Maybe a rule regarding this should be made. Because as it is, it seems like we are cherry picking and choosing to accept it for some verses but not others.

 

[Arthex]

All of it was a dream, dbs dosent exist and tier 2 db is ultra wank.

 

[Confluctor]

It really is

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Fiction, you can fraction infinite, with 100% being infinite itself. And again, we talked about infinite space, Sorbet talking about conquering planet for trading. You can have a

"Fiction" is a bad argument, when it's blatantly stated to be based in ours.

At this point i don't even know what you talking about

I will answer with what you said above, "fiction".

Why should we need it when the Daizenshuu already mention infinite

And, does it matter when literally the main canon doesn't portray it as such?...,not even knowledgeable characters such as Shenron, Jaco or even Zuno...,Who refered as the Universe as vast, but not Infinite???

You know Daizenshu can be contradicted, right???

You got Kienzan's case, and the Pothala ones iirc, which both got retconned in DBS too.

Did you even read or watch Frieza saga???. Frieza only conquering planets for trading, 70% of universe refered to the planet. We never argue with infinite planets, stars, etc....and the Daizenshuu or Chouzenshuu never stated that there is infinite amount of planets, it stated infinite space.

Yes, I've watched all of DB, DBZ, DBS, and GT. Heck I even own DBT1, DBT2, DBT3, DBX2, DB tag team and nearly all of DB video games.

What I mean is, Infinite space, would also mean there is an infinite distance between them and thus trying to conquer just a fraction of them is impossible.

Huh, what the hell you talking about??

The Universe space can be infinitely expanding, but at the same time the main Universe can be finite.

Do you even know that real life have two theories regarding universe?? one is big bang theory which universe is starting from an infinitesimal point and expand itself, the other is infinite universe theory. Even us don't know our actual universe

Fair point. But we use the Big Bang theory in our wiki too, apparently, for scaling and such.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Maybe a rule regarding this should be made. Because as it is, it seems like we are cherry picking and choosing to accept it for some verses but not others.

Becouse some verses have more contradictions than others.....

 

[Confluctor]

#NukeGuidbooksInGeneral

 

[AKM sama]

So Galaxy level U7 then

Bro???? If you see the representation of the universe in DBS, it's not one galaxy. You can see several small galaxies in there. It portrays a big cluster of galaxies.

Maybe a rule regarding this should be made. Because as it is, it seems like we are cherry picking and choosing to accept it for some verses but not others.

It really depends on the verse and guidebook. We cannot have one rule for every verse, for example, we cannot say guidebooks are not allowed anymore. Neither can we say they are completely allowed. It's case by case, like in Mario, one guidebook was contradicting the primary source, so now we do not use it. If Oda ever creates a guide for One Piece, it can be allowed as secondary evidence. Similarly if we have info that a particular guide is reliable and has no contradictions, it can also be allowed as secondary evidence. In cases where the guidebook is not deemed reliable, we should not use it.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Big and vast mean nothing in the grand scheme of thing, you can call an infinite universe as big and vast, it doen't contradict

You know there is a difference between "Big" "vast" and infinite or eternal, right?.....,the first ones refering to something incredibly big but not necessarily "infinite", right?

Is not my problem if you are cherrypicking definitions.

 

[Arthex]

#NukeGuidbooksInGeneral

#NukeTheEntireVerse

No Verse With Guide Books = No Guide Books = No Shit Like That = No need to make this thread = No Need To Argue = your life is peaceful.

 

[Confluctor]

Sounds like a plan

 

[Vietthai96]

"Fiction" is a bad argument, when it's blatantly stated to be based in ours.

Based on our, but what type, because our universe have multiple theories type. So based on our seem really stupid argument

And, does it matter when literally the main canon doesn't portray it as such?...,not even knowledgeable characters such as Shenron, Jaco or even Zuno...,Who refered as the Universe as vast, but not Infinite???

Jaco mention countless star and galaxies, by all mean it statement is not contradicted with infinite universe
Shenron and Zuno say vast and big, also nothing contradicted, vast and big is a vague, general type of statement

You know Daizenshu can be contradicted, right???

And Anime/Manga also contradicted itself, so what is your point?????

You got Kienzan's case

Sources???

Pothala

huh

What I mean is, Infinite space, would also mean there is an infinite distance between them and thus trying to conquer just a fraction of them is impossible

How it is impossible again????, infinite space doesn't always mean infinite distance between some celestial body in the universe. Don't teel me that if there is an infinite universe, a solar system must also be infinite in size, lol. And Daizenshuu literally stated "countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond the stars where light cannot reach". the context blatantly mean that there is a group of celestial body with finite distance between them, however beyond that is infinite space with darkness, light can't reach them.

The Universe space can be infinitely expanding, but at the same time it can be finite.

oh, oke, but you know what, no one arguing for an infinite universe based on infinite expanding, you get the wrong idea

Fair point. But we use the Big Bang theory in our wiki too, apparently, for scaling and such

Wrong actually we used all depend on verse. If verse mention Big Bang then we use Big Bang, if not then no

Bro???? If you see the representation of the universe in DBS, it's not one galaxy. You can see several small galaxies in there. It portrays a big cluster of galaxies.

So, contradiction in anime itself on how they potraying the universe, why should we pretend it not contradict itself why heavily denied Daizenshuu?????

t's case by case, like in Mario, one guidebook was contradicting the primary source

iirc, Mario problem was the different on context between original Japanese and the English translation

For the last time AKM, you still clinging onto that 4 galaxies?????

 

[Arthex]

You know there is a difference between "Big" "vast" and infinite or eternal, right?.....,the first ones refering to something incredibly big but not necessarily "infinite", right?

Is not my problem if you are cherrypicking definitions.

I gotta disagree, the word "big" and "vast" varies depending on what we are talking about, the earth can be big in human sense but compared to a galaxy it means nothing.

The fact they don't tell us the exact size ( like infinite ) should allow us to use the second sources, since it dosent exactly contradicts the statements by zuno.

 

[Arthex]

tho I agree the second sources are kinda iffy tbh.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Aaah .......this threads are a pain the ass

 

[Vietthai96]

tho I agree the second sources are kinda iffy tbh.

everything regarding Dragon Ball is iffy, Krillin vs SSB Goku and many many others

 

[Arthex]

Aaah .......this threads are a pain the ass

Only if Daizenshu didn't have so many issues, high 3a dbs manga would be reality.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Only if Daizenshu didn't have so many issues, high 3a dbs manga would be reality.

Exactly, but trying to argue with people in favour of it, is tiring af

 

[Arthex]

everything regarding Dragon Ball is iffy, Krillin vs SSB Goku and many many others

Yeah like a human rivalling ( or keeping up ) with a form like ssj blue dosent make sense

 

[Arthex]

What would be next? Yamcha keeping up with mui cc goku in next dbh ultra god chapter?

 

[Antvasima]

AKM seems to make sense to me above. As he said, I recurrently have a hard time keeping track, due to handling so many threads in quick succession.

 

[Vietthai96]

AKM seems to make sense to me above

sign. sure, because he is staff while me and Zamasu is normal user. it is very understandable that you favor him more

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

What would be next? Yamcha keeping up with mui cc goku in next dbh ultra god chapter?

Exactly, the worst it's that there is lots of people who will try to justify these type of inconsistencies, the same as infinite speed or the High 3-A universe ignoring all the issues it has.

I really need lots of mental energy to deal with these people tbh

 

[Vietthai96]

Exactly, the worst it's that there lots of people Who Will try to justify these type of inconsistencies

So, next time we do Low 2-C DBH then

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

So, next time we do Low 2-C DBH then

Nah, DBH has arguments to keep their 2-A rating and all, is different from the main canon.

 

[Arthex]

Low 2c dbh is not possible in any case, Atleast 2c or 2b at most if you downplay them by thousands of times.

 

[Vietthai96]

Nah, DBH has arguments to keep their 2-A rating and all, is different de the main canon.

Low 2c dbh is not possible in any case, Atleast 2c or 2b at most if you downplay them by thousands of times.

You all said about inconsistent, why still keep them???
Now that talking about inconsistent, Frieza said to Toppo he is going to throw an attack which can destroy a planet and made it like it is a big deal, and Dyspo is stated to breach light speed barrier...

 

[Arthex]

low 2c reminds me of 3a xenoverse lmao.

 

[Vietthai96]

low 2c reminds me of 3a xenoverse lmao.

Xenoverse is building level, Demigra absorbed Tokitoki can only manage to destroy the time vault

 

[Arthex]

You all said about inconsistent, why still keep them???
Now that talking about inconsistent, Frieza said to Toppo he is going to throw an attack which can destroy a planet and made it like it is a big deal, and Dyspo is stated to breach light speed barrier...

Nvm I agree with infinite sized dbs universe again, like planet level attack against beings that have like low 2c dura??????