• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Question about dragon ball universe size

Status
Not open for further replies.
... Can someone get their hands on a Chouzenshu? It's literally a Daizenshuu, but personally revised by Akira himself if I am not mistaken. It has new information, and revised old information, so it should be far more valid than Daizenshuu itself, right?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
... Can someone get their hands on a Chouzenshu? It's literally a Daizenshuu, but personally revised by Akira himself if I am not mistaken. It has new information, and revised old information, so it should be far more valid than Daizenshuu itself, right?
Click to expand...
I have the Download Link but for the official version in Spanish.
 
Iirc, Chouzenshu is just a condense version of Daizenzhuu, the cosmology, universe part is the same, it only update information about the new lore like Hakaishin, Zeno, etc....
 
Vietthai96 said:
Iirc, Chouzenshu is just a condense version of Daizenzhuu, the cosmology, universe part is the same, it only update information about the new lore like Hakaishin, Zeno, etc....
Click to expand...
It's the author himself taking the Daizenshuu and saying "Yep, this goes... Nah, that's bullshit", and compiling the correct information in a guide.
The information of a Chouzenshuu cannot be contested by stating contradiction on the Daizenshuu.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
It's the author himself taking the Daizenshuu and saying "Yep, this goes... Nah, that's bullshit", and compiling the correct information in a guide.
The information of a Chouzenshuu cannot be contested by stating contradiction on the Daizenshuu.
Click to expand...
1. Sources he said that
2. The Cosmology part is the same, with statement about Heaven being a transcended dimension
 
I'll return for a brief moment to say stuff

As Zamasu posted, the Chozenshuu also has the statements about the universe being infinite in size. I also wanted to say a lot of AKMS points have been previously refuted by Zamasu before AKM was involved in this thread, which really makes me question if AKM actually read through the thread before commenting. A lot of his arguments require inserting headcanon into direct statements such as "the darkness is about Frieza", whatever that means. (Abstract Existence Frieza, obviously)

On top of that, the statements about the universe having a middle or an edge if taken seriously, don't even contradict the universe being infinite in size. A universe can be infinite and still have an edge. It would just mean the middle to that edge (or border) is infinite.

Minor stuff: Infinitely expansive still means it's infinite in size, not contradictory. Expansive means "covering a wide area in terms of space or scope; extensive."; in this case it would mean the space being covered is infinite. 28 planets with life means just that, there are 28 planets with life. Countless galaxies don't contract anything, just means there are countless galaxies in the universe, I don't see how that contradicts the space itself being infinite.

All in all, the arguments against the universe being infinite in size requires actually inserting headcanon instead of just looking at the text.
 
@Kulf_Boba is a G.

Chouzenshuu 1

J7aC2IB.png

"The first volume of Dragon Ball Chouzenshuu is a re-edition of the volume 2 and 4 of the guides published in 1995, Dragon Ball Daizenshuu (The great complete collection of Dragon Ball) which amplifies the Dragon Ball universe and features an interview and new content. A corrected, better version than it's predecessor!"

Chouzenshuu is literally corrected by Akira Toriyama, and it's the better version, verbatim.

x9z0Dyg.png

"So many stories and so many battles have, expanding unlimitedly the horizons of the new world of Dragon Ball"

So yeah, the first "infinitely expanding" isn't referring to actual size.

I6SoOJ7.png

"An universe that will keep expanding beyond human comprehension"

dIAKtIg.png


" [...] Space that expands without limits"
 
This is such an example of selective reading and selective blindness. This is what happens when you have limited knowledge of japanese language and you think ginga can be translated as either galaxy or galaxies irrespective of the context and we can pick and choose. No it doesn't work like that.

Zamasu_Chan said:
This isn’t a page from the daizenshuu but a translated text. Look at the last sentence of your scan. It says that the solar system is a galactic nebula. I think Herms himself debunked this on twitter.
Click to expand...
Yes, it is the translated text from Daizenshuu. No herms did not debunk this. He confirmed it.
4_galaxies_9.PNG

He straight up says what the Daizenshuu says and it is one to one with the translated text.
That a collection of planets forms a nebula, and a collection of nebulas forms a galaxy.
That there are four galaxies in the DB universe.

Zamasu_Chan said:
In the first paragraph of that same image he says "galaxy/galaxies" and even lays down two options. One of these options being that one of the 4 "galaxies" contain galaxies within themselves.
Click to expand...
Selective reading and selective blindness. He lays two options and then goes on to say that Daizenshuu uses the interpretation where there are only 4 galaxies. He goes on to list that is is mentioned a total of 2 times in Daizenshuu 7 and 2 other times in other guides.

Zamasu_Chan said:
...he says, at the beginning of the sentence, that it's somewhat up to interpretation.
  • He uses galaxy/galaxies interchangeably.
  • He says there are two possibilities.
  • He say's it's somewhat up to interpretation.
  • He says it can probably, not objectively, be ignored.
He's clearly not claiming anything is objective.
Click to expand...
Lack of reading comprehension.
1. He uses galaxy/galaxies interchangeably only where it is not clear whether it is meant in plural or singular. When it is clear by the context, he uses only one of those.
2. He also says which possibility the Daizenshuu follows.
3. The "open to interpretation" part is referring to the claim that the galaxies exist infinitely.

He is claiming very objectively Daizenshuu uses the interpretation where there are only 4 galaxies. He goes on to list that is is mentioned a total of 2 times in Daizenshuu 7 and 2 other times in other guides.

Zamasu_Chan said:
galaxy and galaxies are the same so it's ultimately up to interpretation. Yet, you insist it only means a total of 4 galaxies.
Click to expand...
Whenever japanese use plurals, they are usually either preceded with a number and a counter, or simply made understood through context.

"The universe has ginga"
It can be translated as "the universe has galaxy" or "the universe has galaxies". A bit ambiguous but context would say that most of the times it is used as plural in this case.

"One ginga"
Since there is a number, it can only be translated as "one galaxy". Not "one galaxies".

"Few ginga"
Once again, there is a number/counter, so it can only be translated as "few galaxies". Not "few galaxy".

No, galaxy/galaxies cannot be used interchangeably all of the time. Many times the context only allows you to use either singular or plural. The language is not so vague where you can pick and choose what you want to use at any given time.

Let's look at the two statements from Daizenshuu 7 now.

"There is a ruling Kami for EACH ginga"
Since the word "each" is there, it cannot be translated as "there is a ruling Kami for each galaxies". Ginga is used as a singular here, since "each" refers to one. There are no two ways about it. No interchangeability. It is clearly defined through context that ginga in this case is singular.
Which means "there is a ruling Kami for each galaxy". Which ultimately means Daizenshuu says there are 4 galaxies.

EACH

GALAXY

There are 4 Kami.

One for

EACH GALAXY.

Hence,

4

GALAXIES.

"The universe is divided into FOUR ginga"
Since a counter 4 is present here, ginga can only be translated as galaxies. It cannot be translated as "the universe is divided into 4 galaxy". It blatantly says "the universe is divided into 4 galaxies".
There are no two ways to interpret this. 4 means 4. Galaxies means galaxies. The universe is divided into 4 galaxies.

Not 4 groups of galaxies.

ONLY

4

GALAXIES.

And galaxies do not contain more galaxies in it. According to the daizenshuu, they contain nebulae and planets.

Which is what Herms has confirmed not once
4_galaxies_9.PNG


Not twice.
4_galaxies_7.PNG


But thrice.
4_galaxies_5.PNG


And maybe more times.

These are the two instances from Daizenshuu 7 he is talking about where it is blatantly said that the universe has 4 galaxies. And there are more instances in other guides.

Zamasu_Chan said:
I can't tell what translations your using here in particular. At least my cans are contextualized.
Click to expand...
I am talking about your scans only. The "endless" one is in Daizenshuu 7 which I also posted above. It is in the same para that says there are only 4 galaxies.
Two scans you are using say "infinitely expanding".

Zamasu_Chan said:
Space is infinite beyond the stars and earth is shown at the edge of a galactic region. Still consistent.
Click to expand...
"Space is infinite beyond the stars" comes from the Daizenshuu which we don't follow. And Earth is said to be at the edge of the universe. Not a galactic region.

Zamasu_Chan said:
The nameless planet is in it's own neutral space.
Click to expand...
Neutral space means the space that coincides with both U6 and U7. Neutral space doesn't mean a different chunk of space.

Zamasu_Chan said:
This means nothing. Our own wiki represents space time contunuums as uncountable infinity composed into a single universe, which is usually represented as a sphere. Take Xenoverse for example. We see the timelines have their own shape but they are beyond infinite due to having an infinitely long past present and future, even if it's down to the nanosecond or even plank time.
In simple terms, those are dimensional walls.
Click to expand...
This would have meant a lot if there was an actual blatant statement that the universe is infinite which did not come from a questionable and contradictory source. Until then, it only means the default. Which is, the universes are shown to be finite. They are said to be finite by having a center and an edge.

Zamasu_Chan said:
More staff agree with my points.
Click to expand...
They don't. We have had this discussion about "infinite universe" in the past and it was rejected by most of the staff. Not once, many times. Only Elizhaa and Uchiha said that if the Daizenshuu can be used, then they are fine with it. And that we before my response that goes on to list the problems with cherrypicking. But we do not use it because of reasons I have already outlined. We cannot cherrypick what to use and what not to use from a self-contradictory source.

If you want all of the staff members can be pinged here again to do the same song and dance. But that's my issue, isn't it. The dance never ends. Even though there is a rule against discussing this, here we are... forced to dance again.
 
Last edited:
Can't do much when people just either selectively read or purposely misinterpret things and leave out other important parts.
 
AKM sama said:
This is such an example of selective reading and selective blindness. This is what happens when you have limited knowledge of japanese language and you think ginga can be translated as either galaxy or galaxies irrespective of the context and we can pick and choose. No it doesn't work like that.
Click to expand...
This isn't helping your argument you know. Japanese is a heavily contextualize language
AKM sama said:
Yes, it is the translated text from Daizenshuu. No herms did not debunk this. He confirmed it.
Click to expand...
This is the same argument before. Even he said following up after his translation that it could mean the other way around
AKM sama said:
And Earth is said to be at the edge of the universe
Click to expand...
This is actually wrong, according the the actual diagram of the "universe" it sat at the edge of the dimensional wall that surround the "universe", also the "universe" in Dragon Ball term is not the actual Living Realm but the entire macrocosm
AKM sama said:
The universe is divided into 4 galaxies.
Click to expand...
Again you can see in the map of the Living universe itself i posted above, where it divide into 4 sections/area/direction itself, not 4 galaxies, galaxies will not be displayed like that, or do you want galaxy level Dragon Ball???
AKM sama said:
They are said to be finite by having a center and an edge
Click to expand...
like i said above
AKM sama said:
Can't do much when people just either selectively read or purposely misinterpret things and leave out other important parts
Click to expand...
This is another wrong, you can't say your interpretation are true while the other are wrong, while at the same time, you have no knowledge on Japanese language which is a heavily contextualize language. And Herm, by all mean is a casual translator, we can't put him on a pedestal like a God when it come to Japanese translation


I need to sleep, will return later to comment, excuse me
 
Vietthai96 said:
This isn't helping your argument you know. Japanese is a heavily contextualize language
Click to expand...
Read. I did say "irrespective of the context". And later also said that context makes it clear what a word means. And explained with examples how.
Did you not read?

Vietthai96 said:
This is the same argument before. Even he said following up after his translation that it could mean the other way around
Click to expand...
Pretty sure you are talking about the wrong part and again did not read carefully.

Vietthai96 said:
This is actually wrong, according the the actual diagram of the "universe" it sat at the edge of the dimensional wall that surround the "universe", also the "universe" in Dragon Ball term is not the actual Living Realm but the entire macrocosm
Click to expand...
Nobody is talking about the diagram. We are talking about what Bulma said.

Vietthai96 said:
Again you can see in the map of the Living universe itself i posted above, where it divide into 4 sections/area/direction itself, not 4 galaxies, galaxies will not be displayed like that, or do you want galaxy level Dragon Ball???
Click to expand...
Nobody is talking about the map. We are talking about how the Daizenshuu and other guides claim there are 4 galaxies and hence are unreliable and contradictory and thus, are not used.

Vietthai96 said:
like i said above
Click to expand...
like i said above

Vietthai96 said:
This is another wrong, you can't say your interpretation are true while the other are wrong
Click to expand...
Not even talking about my interpretation. What? What exactly are you reading?

Vietthai96 said:
I need to sleep
Click to expand...
Please do and get some rest.

See this is what happens when a banned topic is opened to discussion. smh
 
Zenkaibattery1 said:
The spanish version has no weight in face of the original japanese text which is already posted above, and has the same translation as the one in the daizenshuu
Click to expand...
FIRST.
This is Chouzenshuu, what has been posted above is completely irrelevant, as this is a revised, re-edited version of the Daizenshuu, it even features Beerus.

SECOND.
"boo hoo, Japanese Text"
You don't speak Japanese.
Zamasu does not speak Japanese.
You are both incapable of interpreting any sort of nuanced phrase on the original Japanese text.
The Spanish version, the official one, has already been interpreted, translated by someone fluent in the language, and approved by Bird Studio.

I do not care about a rough translations from an outdated guide. I will still vouch for Chouzenshuu over it, and keep posting any new stuff I find in this revised, better version.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
@Kulf_Boba is a G.

Chouzenshuu 1

J7aC2IB.png

"The first volume of Dragon Ball Chouzenshuu is a re-edition of the volume 2 and 4 of the guides published in 1995, Dragon Ball Daizenshuu (The great complete collection of Dragon Ball) which amplifies the Dragon Ball universe and features an interview and new content. A corrected, better version than it's predecessor!"

Chouzenshuu is literally corrected by Akira Toriyama, and it's the better version, verbatim.

x9z0Dyg.png

"So many stories and so many battles have, expanding unlimitedly the horizons of the new world of Dragon Ball"

So yeah, the first "infinitely expanding" isn't referring to actual size.

I6SoOJ7.png

"An universe that will keep expanding beyond human comprehension"

dIAKtIg.png


" [...] Space that expands without limits"
Click to expand...
More stuff
vOCD4Ab.png

"Infinite expanse of light and dark where the unknown dwells."

KVlM21W.png

"The Kais are in charge of ruling the vast universe"
No infinitely expanding.

qG4noa7.png

"A space that extends without limits"

I believe those are all the Chouzenshuu versions of the statements.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
More stuff
vOCD4Ab.png

"Infinite expanse of light and dark where the unknown dwells."

KVlM21W.png

"The Kais are in charge of ruling the vast universe"
No infinitely expanding.

qG4noa7.png

"A space that extends without limits"

I believe those are all the Chouzenshuu versions of the statements.
Click to expand...
So 2 statements from Chouzenshuu calling the space infinite?
 
The first and last one do seem to be High 3-A statements.

We also have the Japanese raws of these, which Zamasu asked to be translated.

If we don't believe that his translations are correct, someone could just ask for them to be translated again.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for helping out, AKM. I think that you make sense above.

Can somebody write a list of the staff members who have evaluated this thread previously, so I can ask them to evaluate AKM's and Zamasu's posts, please?

Or should we wait for Zamasu's translation request to be handled first?
 
Antvasima said:
Thank you for helping out, AKM. I think that you make sense above.

Can somebody write a list of the staff members who have evaluated this thread previously, so I can ask them to evaluate AKM's and Zamasu's posts, please?

Or should we wait for Zamasu's translation request to be handled first?
Click to expand...
I personally vote that we take time and deal with this now rather then have this issue repeatedly come up again. So yeah, i would wait for zamasu's translation request to be handled.
 
Just to get things on the right track, following points should be noted.

1. The answer to this Q&A thread is that we do not use the Daizenshuu for this anymore because it is self-contradictory and we cannot cherry-pick.
2. The reasons for that have been pointed out.

That is all there is to it.

Zamasu thinks that the Daizenshuu is not a contradictory source, despite it blatantly saying there are 4 galaxies multiple times, which is also confirmed by Herms a minimum of three times, and cannot be interpreted in any other way given the context of those statements.

If the focus has shifted to Chozenshuu now, I have some things to say about that, which I will get into later.
 
AKM sama said:
Just to get things on the right track, following points should be noted.

1. The answer to this Q&A thread is that we do not use the Daizenshuu for this anymore because it is self-contradictory and we cannot cherry-pick.
2. The reasons for that have been pointed out.

That is all there is to it.

Zamasu thinks that the Daizenshuu is not a contradictory source, despite it blatantly saying there are 4 galaxies multiple times, which is also confirmed by Herms a minimum of three times, and cannot be interpreted in any other way given the context of those statements.

If the focus has shifted to Chozenshuu now, I have some things to say about that, which I will get into later.
Click to expand...
No need to, Chouzenshuu commits the same mistake of calling the sectors both areas and galaxies, it's self contradictory.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

LuffyRuffy46307
  • Locked
『INFINITE UNIVERSE IN DRAGON BALL SUPER』
10 11 12
Replies
468
Views
29K
LuffyRuffy46307
LuffyRuffy46307
LuffyRuffy46307
  • Locked
Back to the beginning
2 3 4
Replies
137
Views
12K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Omegabronic
  • Locked
Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision
7 8 9
Replies
326
Views
30K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
ProfectusInfinity
Low 1-C question.
Replies
3
Views
3K
TiltedFN
TiltedFN
57Dev
  • Article
Dragon ball Cosmology revision
Replies
5
Views
2K
57Dev
57Dev
Back
Top