Potter-Verse: possibly a big upgrade

[The_Archdemon]

Three higher end teachers or deatheaters matching him in skill or power together isn't very well supported and is inconsistent in general looking at the evidence I was provided.

They're not exaclty "higher end teachers". You see, Minerva was said to be able to take on five highly skilled aurors and easily defeat them. Alone. Similar to Grindelwald's feat (albeit his feat was, like, twice that of her).

Obviously any auror should be higher than 9-A by himself, since any third-year is already baseline 9-A via Glacius Spell and the likes.

If she can take on five aurors and win, that would be way higher than plain 9-A and, if the calcs on these feats are done, it could even hit Tier 8.

The gap still needs to exist (and it does), of course, but not that high.

However, I suppose one should not update the profiles until theses calcs are done.

Should we make a list, sir?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I feel like making a list of relevant feats and then discussing the nitty gritty of scaling would help make the debate less messy, yes.

You make good points on Voldemort without the Elder Wand. Perhaps after we go over feats we should make a seperate key for Volde/Dumbledore/Gellert with the Elder Wand to clear up confusion? It would make the scaling less messy from stuff before he gets it.

Thank you for being direct with me on the discussion and feats. I have a clearer idea of the argument you are trying to make as a result, and find a number of your points more acceptable now.

 

[The_Archdemon]

A draft, from what I could understand here:

• Dumbledore's water attack
• Voldemort's shockwave
• Bellatrix's shockwave
• Aurors repairing a bridge
• Grindelwald's fire
• Finite

These are the feats that need a calculation.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Also, here, Fenrir destroys Olivanders. The wand shop, not the man. However, he did not obliterate the shop completely, so.. low end 9-A, I guess?

Also also, Snape was able to completely turn the Malfoy's mansion gate into vapor, to the point where he simpy walked through it, and then put it back to normal. I suppose it would be at least comparable to pulverizing a steel door. So, casual Snape is "baseline" 9-A. Fairly legit.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Are Dumbledore and Voldemort's feats really worth calcing?

 

[Heilergott]

So, my thread suddenly went nuclear a couple days ago it seems. I was sadly only able to read it today since I was absent from my home for a week.

But I have read it now. And there is a lot of factually incorrect stuff in here. Like,a lot.

Someone said "Wormtail destroyed his wand to cast the spell that blew up a street."

I would like to see a source for that, because I have never even heard of that and I've read nigh on everything that there is about Harry Potter. Wormtails wand is suggested to be of superior skill in the cruder forms of magic, but that's it.

Snape being superior to Minerva, James, Sirius usw usw.

Also untrue. James and Sirius tended to just curbstomp Snape everytime they fought and `Young` James solo'd Snape right there in the books. Without any effort whatsoever, I might add. Both James and Sirius are noted to be geniuses and possibly the best of their generation. Yes, Snape was superior to Adult Sirius and to Prime James. Because the first had been in Azkaban for 13 years, literally going backwards in magical skill and James had been dead for the same time. Both could not grow. Meanwhile Snape was able to train and learn, so of course he is superior. Note thought, that he still seems wary of fighting Bellatrix or Sirius.

Propably because the Black were just extremely powerful wizards. Snape outskilled them thought.

As to Filius, Minerva and Slughorn. We never even see Snape fight Filius, just suprise him. Minerva might be, just like Filius, old as hell (she literally has two canonically correct ages. Like, wtf Rowling) Slughorn openly specialises in Potions. All are noted to be powerful, yes. But Voldemort, the second he got serious, literally one-shotted them in under a second. They cannot scale to him.

As to Snape vs. Minerva.

Snape is with high propability more powerful than Minerva, simply because of the reason he was trained by Voldemort himself, just like Bellatrix and possibly Dolohov. Him "holding back" is propably him just restraining on the potentially lethal curses. Still a goodpoint for him.

Voldemort smiting people.

Voldemort's curses no longer had any lasting effect on people. However, they had to have had some effect on people. The blessing has limits. I rather doubt it could stop a accelerated brick from Voldemort just because it was brought to that speed by magic. I also rather doubt it could stop Voldemort from breaking your neck through magically applied force. It can merely stop purely magical effects.

He was also able to Curse Neville, even with the Blessing on him, so...

Someone also suggested that Snape has undone Voldemorts magic multiple times. He has not. In fact, he has tried to do so exactly two times. Once with Quirrelmort, which was a nerfed Voldemort and greatly weakened (and still could only halt him) and Dumbledore's curse, which he could just barely halt for around a year.

Pottermore Canon!!!

Pottermore is the single largest source of plotholes and completely impossible statements. Pottermore both states that Wands are necessary for magic AND that they are not not needed and merely a helpful gimmick. Enough said about that pile of garbage.

Power in Harry Potter.

Power in HP is a can of worms in and on itself. The Top Tier, for all intents and purposes, cannot even lay a finger on the God TIer. That is just how it is. Three Top Tier were barely able to halt a God Tier. Bellatrix was basically useless against Dumbledore. Grindewald outdid 20 freaking aurors. There might be some kind of "Threshhold" or something that, once passed, makes you vastly more powerful.

It is proven again and again that a sufficiently powerful wizard can block way to powerful curses for the average protego with just that: a protego. A shitty charm that should, at best, be able to block Jinxes and Hexes, so low to mid level Dark Magic. Yet Harry Potter basically uses that thing for everything because he is vastly more powerful than your everage wizard.

Voldemort, Dumbledore and Grindelwald can just stomp through Defensive Magic of your average top Tier and Stonewall them for because they are just that much more powerful. Best example here is Grindelwald facetanking ~20 High-Mid to Low-Top Tier characters because he is just that freaking strong. It is never mentioned how Ginny, Luna and Hermione equal Bellatrix, since Ginny is quite literally a centimeter from death. It might just be that their defense is somewhat able to keep up with Bellatrix offence, but, well, Ginny was pretty close to death there.

The Movies:

The Movies are mentioned like 30 times in the entire discussion as proof of Voldemorts deeds. The Movies do not matter. One bit. Movie Deatheaters are around building level via freaking Apparition. The movies take massive creative licenses, have gargantuan plotholes, like, say, the TimeTurnerParadox, that does not even exist in the Books.


So that was long AF, but I think necessary. Lastly: Please start reading up on sources before making statements. Even simple googlesearches, for christs sake. Do not make statements if you just think "you might have just read it somewhere".

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Pottermore is canon until it is proved that it contradicted something. You can go to JK Rowling and tell her it is garbage but is canon until so.

Other than that I agree of most of what Heilergott said. However I do not understand how that makes any difference to the revisions Archdemon suggested.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Pottermore is canon until it is proved that it contradicted something. You can go to JK Rowling and tell her it is garbage but is canon until so.

In all fairness Death of the Author is a thing. If a source is proven repeatedly to be unreliable, even if that source is WoG, we shouldn't take stuff from that source at face value even when there is no immediate contradiction.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Heilergott seems to make sense.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Pottermore is canon until it is proved that it contradicted something. You can go to JK Rowling and tell her it is garbage but is canon until so.

Other than that I agree of most of what Heilergott said. However I do not understand how that makes any difference to the revisions Archdemon suggested.

Mostly this.

 

[The_Archdemon]

As for that, Kep suggested calcing it, but I'm not actually sure. These feats won't upgrade them, I suppose, but would be very solid supporting feats.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Bump

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also regarding Ginny being a centimetre away from death, that doesn't mean Hermione, Luna and Ginny didn't match Bellatrix (the book literally states they were evenly matched). It's just that a Killing Curse nearly hit Ginny.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

A draft, from what I could understand here:

Can you specify which tidemark of the video did Bellatrix create a shockwave?

 

[The_Archdemon]

I suppose it is here. I might have described it wrong, though. Called it a shockwave because the effect was the same as Voldemort's.

 

[Heilergott]

I would suppose repairing the broken Skyscraper to be far more impressive than repairing the bridge since it is done by a single wizard instead of three.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Was it? Could you point that part of the video out?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

At 3:40. Not sure we can say the whole building was done by just one though seeing as they only show us a portion of it. What he did is still more impressive than the bridge though.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Yeah, I suppose that's right.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

How can repairing stuff be calculated? KE?

 

[The_Archdemon]

It would depend on how large the buildings they are fixing are, how many aurors are involved, and the largest chunks being moved and at what speeds, but maybe.

That was Dargoo's suggestion, I think.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also I think probably only Bellatrix's feat is worth calculating to give us a tier for the high-mid tiers.

Dumbledore tanked a portion of that shockwave by Voldemort though, anything above 9-B durability would probably be an outlier anyway though.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Dumbledore tanked a portion of that shockwave by Voldemort though, anything above 9-B durability would probably be an outlier anyway though.

I believe Dumbledore was with his shield up that time. It is most likely Voldemort's attack phased through it and only a portion actually hit Dumbledore.

Also I think probably only Bellatrix's feat is worth calculating to give us a tier for the high-mid tiers.

I believe Finite and such should also be worth calcing. It was done by five wizards, yes, but undid an extremely powerful spell from ******* Grindelwald himself that was going to burn Paris down yada yada yada.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Bellatrix shockwave is 8-C. Will calculate the Auror feats later.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Actually why are the three fighting Voldemort only Building level+? I calculated Grindelwald's fire to be 8-B and dividing that by 5, each Auror is Large Building level, not Building level+. And that's five Aurors, while it's only three that fought Voldemort.

 

[Antvasima]

Did they match Voldemort in terms of raw power, or simply dodge and launch spells at him.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Did they match Voldemort in terms of raw power, or simply dodge and launch spells at him.

They did duck, but all three of them are quite old and cannot rely on sheer dodging. Rowling kept on using the words "fighting" and "duelling", and that neither were able to finish each other. The author also uses the duel as a feat for the trio on Pottermore.

For Bellatrix vs Ginny Hermione and Luna, the book literally says they are equal, which is even clearer.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that seems to make sense then, but it is best to wait to see what other staff members think as well.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Actually why are the three fighting Voldemort only Building level+? I calculated Grindelwald's fire to be 8-B and dividing that by 5, each Auror is Large Building level, not Building level+. And that's five Aurors, while it's only three that fought Voldemort.

Now that's something. The ones who undone Grindelwald's fire were Nicolas Flamel, Theseus Scamander, Newt Scamander, Tina Goldestein and Yusuf Kama. I suppose that's solid, and consistent with a casual feat from Bellatrix being 8-C.

Also, I do not know whether that's worth something or not, but the portuguese version (which I've also read, since portuguese is my native language) quotes:

Voldemort agora duelava com McGonagall, Slughorn e Kingsley ao mesmo tempo, e seu rosto transparecia um ódio frio ao v├¬-los tran├ºar e se proteger ao seu redor...

And "se proteger" literally translates to "protecting themselves".

Anyway, if/when the calcs get accepted, I suppose the upgrades could be applied.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Also, does Dumbledore's attack scale to Voldemort's durability? They are already 9-B and I cannot see 9-B+ being too much for them.

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think Dargoo?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Also, does Dumbledore's attack scale to Voldemort's durability? They are already 9-B and I cannot see 9-B+ being too much for them.

What do you mean?

 

[The_Archdemon]

Dumbledore's watter attack hit Voldemort and kept him inside it. I supose he would have been severely injured if the attack is 9-B+ and his dura is only 9-B.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Rowling kept on using the words "fighting" and "duelling", and that neither were able to finish each other. The author also uses the duel as a feat for the trio on Pottermore.

Voldemort defeats all three of them in one hit when one of his spells lands, and the text explicitly says that they were avoiding his spells. Fighting/Dueling also does not entail the spells hitting the other; you can fight someone vastly superior to yourself and get by on avoiding attacks.

I thought we established Pottermore as not being a reliable source of info, and even then it contradicts the context of the feat above.

I honestly think Dumbledore and Volde should just be 8-B if we're talking 8-C deatheaters and aurors; I can try calcing the forcefield breaking feat using an explosion.

 

[The_Archdemon]

I honestly think Dumbledore and Volde should just be 8-B if we're talking 8-C deatheaters and aurors; I can try calcing the forcefield breaking feat using an explosion.

I agree.

Grindelwald's fire is 8-B, and it was a casual feat. Also, I suppose Credence's Violent Frag feat makes more sense now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so 8-B God Tiers and 8-C High Tiers then?

Just to make certain, we do have calculations to scale both of these from, correct?

 

[The_Archdemon]

Correct.

8-B from Grindelwald's Fire, Credence's hill busting and Voldemort's barrier destruction. Even though Grindelwald's fire is still to be accepted and Credence's feat was approved but only in the low-end (which made no sense to me at all).

8-C tier comes from several casual feats. Also we seem to have an High 8-C feat for the High-Tiers, from that Finite scene.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Voldemort's barrier destruction can probably be calced via an explosion looking at this, or at least the airblast.

 

[The_Archdemon]

Probably.