Post-Haoshoku Luffy and Shuron Hakken Kaido CRT based on G4 and Strongest Attacks multipliers.

[Eseseso]

I know this is a rather...heavily debated topic, but after looking over the final parts of the Luffy vs Kaido fight, I think I may have found a way for the >=4x multiplier for Gear 4 to be used without completely screwing up the scaling.


So to start, while normal Hybrid Kaido (even with Hao Infusion) will stay at 1.497 exatons alongside Post Hao Base, Gear 2, and G3 Luffy, Shuron Hakke Kaido should scale alongside Gear 4 to the 4x multiplier of 5.988 Exatons, as Shuron Hakke Kaido clearly matched and even killed Gear 4th Luffy while struggling far less than he did while sober against G4 Luffy, not to mention he tanked hits from Luffy's various gears noticeably better than before and it was indeed stated that his Haki was stronger so that could very well apply to his durability as well.

Yes Luffy did match his Shuron hakke attack with Roc Gatling, but that attack is no doubt well above Normal Gear 3rd in power in the same way that Jet Gatling scales well above Gear 2nd and Kong Gatling is well above Gear 4th's normal power.

Luffy's G4 strongest attacks would scale to >= 2x this, as they'd scale above a 2-handed G4 attack, so they'd scale >= 11.976 exatons.

This would scale to Luffy's G4 strongest attacks and Shuron Hakke Zoan/Hybrid Kaido's durability, as he tanked 2 of the Strongest Attacks (Over Kong Gun and Hydra) and still kept going strong even if they did some hefty damage.

As for Gear 5, I'm not sure whether to just scale him far above Gear 4 or to scale him above the Strongest Attacks.

If the former, he scales to 5.988 exatons. If the latter, he scales to above 11.976 exatons.

Yes Hybrid Kaido hurt him but G5 quickly recovered from all of Hybrid Kaido's hits IIRC.

This of course affects Bajrang Gun, since it is >=4x normal Gear 5 so it'd be either 23.952 exatons (High 6-A+) or 47.904 exatons (moon level).



Thoughts?

 

[Eminiteable]

As for Gear 5, I'm not sure whether to just scale him far above Gear 4 or to scale him above the Strongest Attacks for repeatedly drawing blood from Shuron Hakken Hybrid Kaido.

If the former, he scales upward to 4.435 petatons (baseline High 6-A). If the latter, he scales to above 8.256 petatons.

Shurron Hakke wore off long before he fought Gear 5th Luffy.

 

[SnookB]

I'mma just say it. If we scale base Yonkos to each other and have agreed on multipliers, then it should be:
1.032Petatons, the scaling chain that exists already, and< Gear 4s compressed attacks (x4 Hybrid Kaido/Shuron Hakke/Base ACOC/G2/G3 Luffy)< Supreme Kong Gun (x4 G3)

We're locking them to "far higher" and "higher" when there's existing numbers already and I do think it's a bit unfair tbh

 

[Damage3245]

Shuron Hakke Kaido is not 4x superior to Hao Luffy.

Stronger than him? Yes, since his Haki grew and he overpowered Luffy in a headbutt clash, but not to that degree of superiority.

 

[SnookB]

Shuron Hakke Kaido is not 4x superior to Hao Luffy.

Not that.
Luffy himself is what's x4 superior to the base value we got.
Snakeman should scale x4 base ACOC Luffy. Boundman should scale x4 G2 Luffy. Over Kong Gun should scale x4 Gear 3 Luffy.

The point is, if we're locking base Yonkos to 1pt, we don't need to use them as a benchmark, but Luffy who in base was comparable to a HYBRID Kaido (who scales over base Kaido, who's comparable to base WB, who's over the 1pt meteorite), and upscale from there using Luffy himself.

Admittedly I don't know where Gear 5 would fit in any of that since its strength is such a hot topic

 

[Damage3245]

Snakeman should scale x4 base ACOC Luffy

Using the multiplier for the ACOC AP values was already rejected. That's not how the compression works in regards to Haki.

 

[SnookB]

Using the multiplier for the ACOC AP values was already rejected. That's not how the compression works in regards to Haki.

I'm not taking ACOC into account.
Base snakeman>Base Luffy, therefore ACOC Snakeman>ACOC Luffy

 

[SnookB]

The fact that I said x4 means I'm not even considering ACOC as a multiplier, just using the base compression one.

 

[Damage3245]

The fact that I said x4 means I'm not even considering ACOC as a multiplier, just using the base compression one.

That's my point though; the compression multiplier can't be used for that.

 

[SnookB]

That's my point though; the compression multiplier can't be used for that.

That makes no sense whatsoever. We don't know what conqueror's infusion amp is so we can't use G4's multiplier, even though it uses the EXACT SAME compression system while continuing to use ACOC? It scales off base ACOC the same it scales off base Luffy before getting ACOC. Just because he's got an ACOC amp doesn't negate the form's entire point of being "manyfold" stronger.

We're not using ACOC. It's the exact same thing we did initially with Bajrang Gun. The base multiplier is x4, and ACOC is just an unknown "higher" that doesn't effect it.

 

[Damage3245]

That makes no sense whatsoever. We don't know what conqueror's infusion amp is so we can't use G4's multiplier, even though it uses the EXACT SAME compression system while continuing to use ACOC? It scales off base ACOC the same it scales off base Luffy before getting ACOC. Just because he's got an ACOC amp doesn't negate the form's entire point of being "manyfold" stronger.

We're not using ACOC. It's the exact same thing we did initially with Bajrang Gun. The base multiplier is x4, and ACOC is just an unknown "higher" that doesn't effect it.

I'm just saying, this is the same reason why we didn't already apply this multiplier with Boundman Luffy when he's using Conqueror's Haki.

 

[SnookB]

I'm just saying, this is the same reason why we didn't already apply this multiplier with Boundman Luffy when he's using Conqueror's Haki.

So basically the existence of ACOC suddenly changes the consistency of how hard Boundman hits compared to base. I'd understand if we said Ryuou doesn't scale to AP since it's dura-neg.
Respectfully- that's bull.
It's the only form that's had a consistent multiplier but now it's suddenly ignored? It's not like we're assuming ACOC stacks an amp as well, we're just using the G4 system like we do in every single arc since its introduction. It's the exact same climb, only with an unknown amp that isn't even taken into account.
Unless the argument here is base Luffy without ACOC goes back to being 6-C, even though Boundman during round 1 was also drawing blood from Zoan Kaido.

 

[Eseseso]

Not that.
Luffy himself is what's x4 superior to the base value we got.
Snakeman should scale x4 base ACOC Luffy. Boundman should scale x4 G2 Luffy. Over Kong Gun should scale x4 Gear 3 Luffy.

The point is, if we're locking base Yonkos to 1pt, we don't need to use them as a benchmark, but Luffy who in base was comparable to a HYBRID Kaido (who scales over base Kaido, who's comparable to base WB, who's over the 1pt meteorite), and upscale from there using Luffy himself.

Admittedly I don't know where Gear 5 would fit in any of that since its strength is such a hot topic

I agree with all this except we don't know what G3 scales to so I figured it better to scale the Strongest attacks over the 2x Leo Bazooka.

 

[Eseseso]

Shuron Hakke Kaido is not 4x superior to Hao Luffy.

Stronger than him? Yes, since his Haki grew and he overpowered Luffy in a headbutt clash, but not to that degree of superiority.

Tbf Luffy has held his own against people drastically above him for an extended amount of time, like Doflamingo in Gear 2 and Katakuri in base in the 2nd round of their fight.

 

[SnookB]

I agree with all this except we don't know what G3 scales to so I figured it better to scale the Strongest attacks over the 2x Leo Bazooka.

I was gonna say a simpler solution would be-
Base value 1pt for base ACOC, G2 and G3 Luffy. x4 on base or G2 with Snakeman or boundman. "Far Higher" with Strongest attacks since G3 doesn't have feats this arc. It's not a consistency issue with G4'5 compression system, it's the fact that we can't scale it off G3 ince it's shown relatively comparable to G2 during the final round. Luffy's fighting style seems to have absorbed Gear 2 and 3 into his base now.

 

[Eseseso]

I was gonna say a simpler solution would be-
Base value 1pt for base ACOC, G2 and G3 Luffy. x4 on base or G2 with Snakeman or boundman. "Far Higher" with Strongest attacks since G3 doesn't have feats this arc. It's not a consistency issue with G4'5 compression system, it's the fact that we can't scale it off G3 ince it's shown relatively comparable to G2 during the final round. Luffy's fighting style seems to have absorbed Gear 2 and 3 into his base now.

But we already say that the strongest attacks in earlier arcs scale above Leo Bazooka's 2x multiplier so why not now?

 

[SnookB]

But we already say that the strongest attacks in earlier arcs scale above Leo Bazooka's 2x multiplier so why not now?

Then that'd warrant a "higher" rating since there's no quantifiable amount over how much higher it sclaes, right?

 

[Eseseso]

Then that'd warrant a "higher" rating since there's no quantifiable amount over how much higher it sclaes, right?

I just mean that we know it's at least 2x normal Gear 4 so it'd be at least 8.256 petatons

 

[SnookB]

I just mean that we know it's at least 2x normal Gear 4 so it'd be at least 8.256 petatons

Yeah- but that's for the two-handed attacks values.
King Kong Gun>Leo Bazooka. By how much we don't know.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah- but that's for the two-handed attacks values.
King Kong Gun>Leo Bazooka. By how much we don't know.

So what I'm saying is that they can just be stated to scale above 2x and that's that.

 

[SnookB]

So what I'm saying is that they can just be stated to scale above 2x and that's that.

Oh, then yeah that makes sense.
I do think we should leave the numbers out of it at least atm and try to get through the fact that compression multiplier should be sclaeable for the God Tiers (or at the very least Luffy and Kaido)

 

[Damage3245]

Oh, then yeah that makes sense.
I do think we should leave the numbers out of it at least atm and try to get through the fact that compression multiplier should be sclaeable for the God Tiers (or at the very least Luffy and Kaido)

It's not that the compression isn't scaleable; it's that it isn't shown to work stacked with Haki like that.

The Haki is an additive to Luffy's AP.

So say Luffy's AP is 5, and the Hao Haki is like a +20, and his compression multiplier in Gear 4 is 4x. It would come outl ike this:

Luffy's AP = (5 x 4) + 20. His physical strikes are multiplied by the compressive effect, and his Haki stacked on top of that is a boost. Compressing his limbs doesn't make his Haki more potent.

Whereas the proposal here is that Hao Luffy's power is being treated as: (5 + 20) * 4. That doesn't seem to be how it works.

 

[SnookB]

It's not that the compression isn't scaleable; it's that it isn't shown to work stacked with Haki like that.

The Haki is an additive to Luffy's AP.

So say Luffy's AP is 5, and the Hao Haki is like a +20, and his compression multiplier in Gear 4 is 4x. It would come outl ike this:

Luffy's AP = (5 x 4) + 20. His physical strikes are multiplied by the compressive effect, and his Haki stacked on top of that is a boost. Compressing his limbs doesn't make his Haki more potent.

Whereas the proposal here is that Hao Luffy's power is being treated as: (5 + 20) * 4. That doesn't seem to be how it works.

Here's my question
What is the point at all in going Gear 4 if Luffy's attacks won't get stronger and he knows it. "Haki isn't stackable" is proven wrong by the fact that Gear 4 itself has superior buso to regular Luffy's buso, a thing that's shown during the Doflamingo fight, Cracker fight and Katakuri fight.

 

[Damage3245]

What is the point at all in going Gear 4 if Luffy's attacks won't get stronger and he knows it. "Haki isn't stackable" is proven wrong by the fact that Gear 4 itself has superior buso to regular Luffy's buso, a thing that's shown during the Doflamingo fight, Cracker fight and Katakuri fight.

I never said Luffy's attacks wouldn't get more powerful.

 

[SnookB]

I never said Luffy's attacks wouldn't get more powerful.

If they got more powerful thanks to Gear 4
Then they got more powerful to the only known Gear 4 amplifier, which is the compression system. Either Hao infused Gear 4 Luffy is 4 times stronger than G2 hao infused Luffy or not-

 

[Damage3245]

If they got more powerful thanks to Gear 4
Then they got more powerful to the only known Gear 4 amplifier, which is the compression system. Either Hao infused Gear 4 Luffy is 4 times stronger than G2 hao infused Luffy or not-

Well, not not necessarily the case as I explained in my post up above. They get more powerful; just not necessarily in the way you're thinking it.

 

[SnookB]

Well, not not necessarily the case as I explained in my post up above. They get more powerful; just not necessarily in the way you're thinking it.

I am hopelessly confused. Boundman suddenly hits less hard, when base Luffy hits harder than the boundman WITHOUT hao infusion that drew blood from a 6A and tanked hits from him as well. This isn't a case of Luffy turning off haoshoku infusion when going boundman thus having an unknown leap. If Luffy with hao hits at a certain value, then boundman with hao will hit 4 times harder. That's always been the climb.

So say Luffy's AP is 5, and the Hao Haki is like a +20, and his compression multiplier in Gear 4 is 4x. It would come outl ike this:

Luffy's AP = (5 x 4) + 20. His physical strikes are multiplied by the compressive effect, and his Haki stacked on top of that is a boost. Compressing his limbs doesn't make his Haki more potent.

That whole thing is just your view on it.
There isn't a single thing in the story that says something like that. If he's going gear 4 with hao infusion hits, then he's hitting 4x harder than G2 Luffy with hao infusion hits. The only "haki doesn't stack" arguments I remember being had were in relation to Ryuou only, never Haoshoku infusion.

 

[Eseseso]

Besides, post Hao Awakening Luffy seems to have Hao Infusion as his permanent base looking back at the fight with Kaido.

 

[SnookB]

Besides, post Hao Awakening Luffy seems to have Hao Infusion as his permanent base looking back at the fight with Kaido.

Exactly. The whole point of post-hao awakening Luffy is "he's always got it on"
Just think of it as a new base, not some abstract unknown amp that changes the entire functionality of Gear 4

 

[Damage3245]

If Luffy with hao hits at a certain value, then boundman with hao will hit 4 times harder

That has yet to be proven, is the issue.

Just think of it as a new base, not some abstract unknown amp that changes the entire functionality of Gear 4

Nobody said anything about changing the functionality of Gear 4.

 

[SnookB]

That has yet to be proven, is the issue.

Dressrosa, Whole Cake, Mirror World and early wano have been proving it. You're the one who came up with an entirely new concept for Haoshoku that isn't even alluded to in canon.

Nobody said anything about changing the functionality of Gear 4.

If it doesn't hit x4 harder
Then there is literally no point in the compression system
Then there is no point for Gear 4's strength increase
Then it changes the functionality of it being a "manyfold" multiplier in attack power

 

[Damage3245]

Dressrosa, Whole Cake, Mirror World and early wano have been proving it. You're the one who came up with an entirely new concept for Haoshoku that isn't even alluded to in canon.

If it doesn't hit x4 harder

I'm not just talking about the multiplier in general.

 

[SnookB]

At this point you lost me, Damage-

 

[GroundX1]

following

 

[Damage3245]

At this point you lost me, Damage-

Yeah, I feel like I haven't explained it well. I'll see if I can rephrase.


But it's not as simple as putting it as "If Gear 4 didn't amplify his Hao Haki strikes by 4x, then he wouldn't use it."

 

[SnookB]

First you say the multiplier shouldn't stack
Then this new concept of hao+base xGear 4
Then you say you're not talking about the multiplier, which is generally the entire point of this. I'll wait for elaboration- This is fairly black and white tbh

 

[Eseseso]

That's it.

We need divine intervention.

Calling @KingTempest

 

[Damage3245]

First you say the multiplier shouldn't stack
Then this new concept of hao+base xGear 4
Then you say you're not talking about the multiplier, which is generally the entire point of this. I'll wait for elaboration- This is fairly black and white tbh

By "not talking about the multiplier", I mean I'm not saying the multiplier doesn't exist entirely. It just doesn't necessarily apply the way you're arguing it does. Hence why we never had it on there before for Hao Luffy.

And the concept isn't "new". We've discussed it before.

 

[SnookB]

By "not talking about the multiplier", I mean I'm not saying the multiplier doesn't exist entirely. It just doesn't necessarily apply the way you're arguing it does. Hence why we never had it on there before for Hao Luffy.

6A Luffy is Luffy(G2/G3)+Haoshoku infusion

Gear 4's value is x4 that of Luffy's G2

Therefore Gear 4 is x4 Luffy+Hao infusion. I literally do not see what the problem with that is.

And the concept isn't "new". We've discussed it before.

Never seen it with haoshoku, only with Busoshoku's dura neg. Like a year-ish ago there was talk about Ryuou dura neg not stacking with Gear 4, but I don't recall Haoshoku being talked about in that light.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Interesting.