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One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2: Speed Revisions; The Moon
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Wait, have Kaido's new Thunder Bagua speed feats been accepted too? Will they apply to any other characters, or just Kaido?
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Gear 2nd Luffy
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So that means Gear 2 Luffy will scale to 8.7c and all his forms like Gear 4 and Gear 5 will scale above that?
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Yeah. Kaidou’s Bagua, G2nd, Kaidou’s barrage attacks, Luffy’s G4th (not gear 5th tho), and Kaidou’s Kenbun
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You can't have one and not the other. Luffy reshaped his body to Gundari Meteor Shower then hit Kaido with a (seemingly) just as fast attack in Gear 5.
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How come not Gear 5? And in addition, all the top tiers like the other emperors and those who could compete against the Emperors, are they going to upscale from 5.329c based on Sanji's new laser dodging feat? Are the Admirals who fought against Deadbeard in the war just going to scale to his 4.97c feat since he was much weaker then and the speed difference isn't that large?
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Cause Kaidou was tagging him with regular attacks
G5th never matched a Bagua, a meteor shower speed wise (can scale in reactions), etc.
Read above
They scale to Marco so they get to 5.329c as well
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Didn't he raise his arms quick enoug to defend mid-Bagua in Gear 5? That doesn't count for a> reacting to Bagua< feat?
Also-- we pretty much are saying Gear 2>Gear 5 in speed, even though G5 is the physical pinnacle? Because Luffy with Roc Gatling Gun was matching the meteor shower as well.
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Reacting and defending against an attack that literally hasn’t been fired yet is very very ass
G5th isn’t the physical pinnacle, it’s the pinnacle of the control of his body.
Roc Gatling was 2 gears with Haki.
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Haki doesn't increase speed.
Honestly, saying it's below Gear 4 alone was a little weird, but G5 being below G2 is just awkward as hell imo. Luffy was also reacting to baguas and meteor showers in G2 and got tagged by "regular" attacks. Gear 4 was getting tagged by dragon Kaido without any baguas, and that form has no known speed amps.
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When he has feats comparable with his base, then yes
Looks cool. Why would this scale to Thunder Bagua’s speed?
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Hybrid Kaido reacts to his own bagua speeds (capable of adjusting the angle to tap both Law and Zoro) but can't react to Luffy's G5 swings
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Who said he can’t react?
Not every moment of contact is “I can’t react”, especially when this would place Luffy superior to his Bagua speeds and he should just blitz Kaidou all over
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Luffy flat out dodged a Bagua and matched a barrage attack. G2nd Luffy didn’t get hit with anything regular
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G5 being slower than G2 and even G4 is such a reach. He was literally running on air and setting fire trails behind him. He also reacted to and deflected a close range Boro Breath upon just getting G5. G5 is his awakening. It makes no sense that it would be inferior to any of the Gears when it is explicitly shown to enhance everything that he does.
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That moment specifically just looks like Kaido couldn't hold his guard up quick enough to react to the punch. Similiar to how Luffy can't react to Death Destroyer TB even though he was starting to raise his guard.
Point is- the baguas are likely not all the same speed. Base TB (the one that we got the result from) blitzed G4
Then base Luffy reacted to it
Then Gear 4 Luffy fails to react to thunder below bagua
Then Gear 5 proceeds to outpace the same Kaido that can react to his regular thunder bagua
Then Death Destroyer outpaces Gear 5 itself- Kaido's Baguas seemingly get faster the more of them we see. Gear 5 scaling to Hybrid TB automatically scales it higher than base TB by that logic.
Then Gear 2> Gear 4 in speed? Because the latter was getting tagged by Zoan Kaido and no barrages were involved there as far as I can remember.
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Gear 5th was able to easily dodge a Demolition Gust from Hybrid Kaido.
While in chapter 1036 he couldn't dodge them and had to resort to deflect them to a side.
While in chapter 1036 he couldn't dodge them and had to resort to deflect them to a side.
Gear 2nd couldn't overwhelm Kaido with his attacks, they nearly always traded.
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Luffy didn't really need to actively dodge Kaidou's attacks because of his crazy enhanced durability, Kaidou was unable to deal lasting damage because of Luffy's increased resistance to blunt force attacks.
Why bother wasting energy on dodging attacks wherever he can just eat them? I probably wouldn't use that as an anti feat for G5 to make him slower than G4 and G2.
Also I'd say G5 has the best sheer physical strength amongst his other gears, G5 was able to use Kaidou as a jump rope.
Why bother wasting energy on dodging attacks wherever he can just eat them? I probably wouldn't use that as an anti feat for G5 to make him slower than G4 and G2.
Also I'd say G5 has the best sheer physical strength amongst his other gears, G5 was able to use Kaidou as a jump rope.
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Places his arms up to block Kaidou's swing before he can attack, also seems like Luffy grabbed a hold of Kaidou which even surprised him. Also flat out reacts and dodges an attack from Kaidou.
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Most of these aren't thunder Bagua though, him putting his arms up to block before Kaidou's even moved doesn't mean he's thunder Bagua level speed.
Kaidou's even showed to move FTE to dodge an attack from Gear 5th Luffy.
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Do the Bagua's drastically increase Kaidou's speed? I find it somewhat doubtful that an attack that's just him swinging his arms with Haki would amplify his base speed by leaps and bounds.
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.... The second is literally the swing of his Destroyer of Death Thunder Bagua.
Kaido's inferior Thunder Bellow Bagua was able to blitz Gear 4th.
Gear 5th is superior to Gear 4th in every way. Merely thinking that Luffy is somehow inferior to his previous gears is silly considering that he should be able to attack as fast and in exactly the same way as his Snakeman form because "he is now able to do whatever he wants without previous limitations" and with "complete freedom".
Saying that Luffy is inferior to an explicit aspect of Snakeman would be to go against the statement itself, and would mean that Luffy is not as free as claimed, and that he is unable to do something in Gear 5th that his Snakeman form can.
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They're shown to blitz those who can react to him normally; examples being Luffy in 1001. Law in 1010.
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I edited my message pretty soon after first posting it, he put up his hands as Kaidou was preparing the strike. This isn't the same as Gear 2nd dodging while Kaidou was moving which is shown to be the blitzing motion.
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You mean when he was caught mid air and had no means of dodging?
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Base Luffy can run and set fire.
He isn't shown to enhance anything except when he changes his bodymass and hits harder. His speed feats are shit
I'm tired of this narrative that G5th is superior in every single aspects all because it's G5th.
You guys would scale Tankman over G2nd all because of the higher gear number
No, he did not. Base Luffy with Future Sight barely reacted to it.
Ok, let's analyze their feats.
1037 (Gear 2nd)
Luffy's first showing of G2nd is dodging the Raimei Hakke as it's swinging and drastically outspeeding Kaidou.
Kaidou then grabs his leg and they headbutt.
Kaidou shoots a Boro Breath, which Luffy dodges with ease, then they trade Roc Gatlings and Meteor Showers.
Luffy lands hits and Kaidou lands hits, then Luffy blocks a hit.
Then Luffy already charged up a Roc Stamp and kicked Kaidou before he could even block.
1041 (Snakeman)
Luffy and Kaidou clash. We don't know what form this is.
Luffy then blitzes Kaidou with Hydra.
1042 (Snakeman)
Kaidou gets blitzed by Snakeman.
He manages to block one and then 3 more hit him right after in retaliation.
After getting overwhelmed Kaidou uses future sight.
Kaidou uses it to dodge his moves and bite him.
Then he blasts him with him just coming out of his mouth.
1042 (Boundman)
He recovers from the Boro Breath and charges up an Over Kong Gun.
He charges while Kaidou's talking then hits him when he tries to blast a Boro Breath.
Kaidou blitzes him with the Horai Hakke.
Then the bs happens
So now I question you and everyone else. What does G2nd Luffy show that is superior to G4th?
Now G5th's time
1044 (Awakening)
Luffy grabs him off guard.
Luffy redirects a Boro Breath.
1045 (Awakening)
Kaidou manages to bite Luffy.
Super big Luffy comes and Kaidou bites him again.
Kaidou manages to charge a Boro Breath and fire it at Luffy while Luffy used him as a jump rope.
Luffy retaliates but Kaidou intercepts with a Ragnarok.
Luffy does his stretch shit then hits him.
1046 (Awakening)
They trade attacks. Not even a trade. Kaidou attacks first then Luffy attacks.
Luffy dodges his Kaifu.
1047 (Awakening)
Kaidou dodges his lightning bolt and smacks him with a regular hybrid attack.
Luffy tries to kick him, Kaidou dodges hella fast and smacks him.
Luffy then manages to block before Kaidou even starts his Daiitoku Raimei Hakke, since he held that position for forever.
Then he got tagged by Kaifu's.
Then he got tagged by a Boro Breath.
Then the speed shit is done.
So my question here is where in the world does
G2nd have speed scaling over G4th
G5th have speed scaling over G4th or G2nd
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By his Meteor Shower. That's the only time he got tagged. When he stopped using the meteor shower, Luffy blocked him and blitzed him.
Let's not make stuff up.
He blitzed Base Luffy with Future Sight. Same Base Luffy who could react to attacks from Hybrid Kaidou.
Read the message above.
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You can add that he got hit in mid air by the Ragnarok in 1037 and that's it
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In he fact that using barrages and reactions shows us that G2+G3 (Roc Gatling) can match a barrage, yet Gear 4 gets tagged by Zoan Kaido, who should be slower than the barrages/baguas. THat's the whole reason I said that.
The fact that this Luffy reacted to a Bagua
But this Luffy couldn't evade Zoan Kaido
Even though we know based off the Doffy and Katakuri fights that G4>G2 in speed, implies G2 is somehow faster than G4, while the very easy answer is what Luffy himself said. Kaido just got stronger after drinking.
This exchange has both Luffy and Kaido failing to react to each other's attacks, even though the attacks are shown to be comparable. (Kaido's barrage has 5 hits, Luffy's has 5 as well.)
Base Luffy doges Boro Breath from a distance
Gear 5 has Boro Breath right in his face and still has time to grab the ground, yank it up and deflect the blast just fine.
Point is-
The fact that Kaido has like 3 variants of thunder bagua, each seemingly faster than the last, AFTER GETTING STRONGER on the roof, means G5 should scale to the LOWEST value of thunder bague that we've seen (Base Kuri town Kaido's TB). Hybrid Kaido with his various baguas just scales over that by an unquantifiable amount.
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Kaidou used Future Sight, which is drastically superior to regular Kenbun, which allows people to react to and dodge attacks from people massively faster than them.
Gear 2nd Luffy didn't even fight Zoan Kaidou
Literally the only time he was drinking was in 1037. He didn't drink again after that.
This doesn't imply that G2nd > G4th in speed. It implies that when using Kenbunshoku, it's easy to dodge attacks.
I don't see a single "fail". These dudes threw barrage attacks and countered each other with some landing. All because you land hits doesn't mean you're drastically faster, since they aren't even able to block in this instance.
Fail to see what this has to do with the comparable attack point
Kin'emon intercepted a Boro Breath.
Raizou intercepted a Boro Breath.
Zoro intercepted a Boro Breath.
Marco intercepted a Boro Breath.
Base Luffy in the beginning of Wano dodged a long range Boro Breath
Hybrid Kaidou was getting tracked by Base Luffy with no Haki.
The same Luffy who used Haki and still got hit with a Base Kaidou thunder Bagua.
Unless G5th has feats of scaling to a thunder bagua, he does not scale to a thunder bagua
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Being drunk isn't shown to amp Kaidou's speed but even if it did the Kaidou that fought Gear 5 was no longer drunk
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Yes, but he stayed drunk until 1042. Even at the very last exchange with G4/Kaido we were getting introduced to yet another drunk phase.
Literally all of them were from long ranges. Gear 5 is the only one who spent more than half the travel time for boro breath on his back, and reacted when it was a few feet from his face only.
Y'know, if this is the case than the higher speed value for TB should only apply to TB, right? Saying it applies to "only gear 2" when even Gear 4 doesn't have a feat of cleanly dodging anything like it automatically puts Gear 2 over G4 in speed.
It's either that or:
Kenbun G2 Luffy>Gear 4 Luffy via reaction time.
The only reason we have G2 scaling to it is because G2 reacted to a bagua, yet we have G4 scaling because G4>G2 even though G4 didn't react to a Bagua? That's the same logic with Gear 5. Kaido was more surprised by Gear 5 than any of the other forms yet it's below G2 in speed?
It comes full circle in such an awkward way tbh. But that could be just me.
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Base Luffy can’t move fast enough to do it in the AIR.
He used G3 attacks and a G4 compression attack in G5, why wouldn’t he be able to imitate his previous speed? He is literally pumping his heart in this form.
Narratively, it makes sense that G5 Luffy is, at the very least, comparable to his previous speed. Why? Because both the Gorosei and he, himself, confirmed that it was strengthened him to the point where it was the pinnacle of what he could do.
This isn’t pre-timeskip G3 where he had to sacrifice strength for speed. G5 Luffy only really got tagged when he was messing around. Plus, a good point was brought up that he was basically eating the attacks like they were nothing and didn’t feel the need to dodge.
This wiki can do what it wants, but G5 Luffy being slower than G2 and G4 Luffy is one of the craziest One Piece takes that I have seen, second only to G3 being “stronger” than G4.
One last thing, there was never any implication that Luffy suddenly got slower. Neither he, nor Kaido, mentioned his speed being decreased. On the contrary, both he and Kaido praised G5’s physical capabilities.
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Besides, Luffy had just awakened the form. He was getting used to the new abilities it granted him and what freedom he gained. You could clearly see from his happy expression that he wasn't nearly as serious as he was before resurrecting. It makes sense that he wouldn't dodge as effectively as in his other gears, both as a way to test how durable his body was against the attacks and because he was just having too much fun being so free.
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Different drunk stages don't mean that he drank more
So unless it has a good feat, it's trash
G4th automatically scales above G2nd because of its constant portrayal of being superior to G2nd in speed
"Kenbun G2nd" huh
G5th has nothing putting it over the others in speed.
G4th does.
That's why
it is
Who said this was based on speed
"Why wouldn't he be able to" what does this have to do with what we see?
No they did not.
The Gorosei said that is increases physical strength. They don't know of Luffy's Gears.
Then Luffy said its the pinnacle of what he could do.
Both context pointed to his capabilities of controlling his body.
G4th got tagged like 3 times in the same chapter as the Bajrang gun while seriously trying to dodge and attack
ok
Luffy went from G4th to base in the first fight and they said nothing
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