One Piece: Wano Arc Part 2.5: AP and Lifting Revisions; The Shogun

[Damage3245]

That is only the mass and the speed. Kaidou's strength, and the clouds strength aren't factored in. Even the PE of the clouds themselves overwhelms this generous result, so please spare me of your "The KE in this particular instance is more important that scaling and better feats".

The PE is mostly irrelevant here since Momonosuke is not working directly against the PE here.

Stamina is how long you can exert your strength. It's strength regardless (and that is the term used rather than stamina, no?).
The lesser stamina meaning you can exert less of your strength, both Kaidou and the clouds lose strength when stamina gets depleted.
It's dependent on his strength.

The series can conflate the terms, but they have proper definitions on VS Battles wiki.

 

[Damage3245]

Why is the argument now Kaido not scaling to his clouds? It's even supported by him knocking around a character in the same LS as his clouds through said character's guard.
Kaido's stamina sustaining the clouds that held Onigashima direct correlates to him being able to do the feat to begin with.
If he didn't have the power necesssary to carry the island, his clouds wouldn't move it at all. Unless you mean to argue Kaido can carry just about anything ever so long as he has he stamina necessary for it. If he couldn't carry the island, his clouds and stamina would immidiately run out, not last for 15 minutes or longer.

Nobody is arguing that he doesn't have the power to carry the island.

 

[SnookB]

Nobody is arguing that he doesn't have the power to carry the island.

The last few posts are certainly sounding like it, but alrighty.

 

[Therefir]

He has literally physically moved the island before.

Would you mind giving me the chapter where that happens? Because Yamato explicitly tells Momo that moving the island with his own strength is not going work and that the only thing he can do is to use stronger Flame Clouds than Kaidou's.

Which again doesn't rely on Momo being physically stronger than Kaidou, and Yamato isn't saying he should become stronger than Kaido in 5 minutes.

 

[SnookB]

Would you mind giving me the chapter where that happens? Because Yamato explicitly tells Momo that moving the island with his own strength is not going work and that the only thing he can do is to use stronger Flame Clouds than Kaidou's.

He yoinked it so fast the chunks falling off it were flying sideways instead of downwards

 

[LordGinSama]

Flame Clouds are directly connected to one's vitality, it should scale to AP.

 

[Damage3245]

Flame Clouds are directly connected to one's vitality, it should scale to AP.

I don't think that's exactly how it works in an objective sense.

If you can convert your stamina into an energy beam for example, then the strength of your punch isn't necessarily going to be equal to the AP of the beam.

 

[Therefir]

He yoinked it so fast the chunks falling off it were flying sideways instead of downwards

We could probably get a timeframe and speed using those shunks.

What about this shunk though, gravity accelerated it faster than the island is falling.

 

[KingTempest]

Would you mind giving me the chapter where that happens? Because Yamato explicitly tells Momo that moving the island with his own strength is not going work and that the only thing he can do is to use stronger Flame Clouds than Kaidou's.

Which again doesn't rely on Momo being physically stronger than Kaidou, and Yamato isn't saying he should become stronger than Kaido in 5 minutes.

You mean when Momo moved it and flat out said "it's moving backwards"?

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't think that's exactly how it works in an objective sense..

Depends on the context really.

If you can convert your stamina into an energy beam for example, then the strength of your punch isn't necessarily going to be equal to the AP of the beam.

Which makes me bring up some questions.

How are Flame clouds generated?


And how do we treat Devil Fruits? Is there any type of enegry system involved?

 

[Therefir]

You mean when Momo moved it and flat out said "it's moving backwards"?

He is using the flame clouds here.

 

[SnookB]

What about this shunk though, gravity accelerated it faster than the island is falling.

Or it's falling from a further opposite side. Every other visible chunk seems to be consistently going sideways, or rather the island is moving fast enough for the chunks to be left behind while that close during the fall.

 

[KingTempest]

He is using the flame clouds here.

he's using kaidou's, but he's moving it with his own strength

 

[Therefir]

Or it's falling from a further opposite side. Every other visible chunk seems to be consistently going sideways, or rather the island is moving fast enough for the chunks to be left behind while that close during the fall.

My main issue is that if the island was moving that fast the chunks wouldn't even be there to begin with.

 

[KingTempest]

My main issue is that if the island was moving that fast the chunks wouldn't even be there to begin with.

you do realize that when momo's dropping it there's barely any chunks, and those could've been the chunks from the prior breakage before it started moving... correct?

 

[SnookB]

My main issue is that if the island was moving that fast the chunks wouldn't even be there to begin with.

Those could've been residual from when it fell (after Kaido's flames were gone).

 

[SnookB]

KT fast af with taking the words out my mouth

 

[Therefir]

you do realize that when momo's dropping it there's barely any chunks, and those could've been the chunks from the prior breakage before it started moving... correct?

Uh, I guess that chunk right below the island was from the prior breakage and not just detached itself in that moment, what a coincidence.

If it wasn't for the fact that Momo already had moved the island far to the side and any shunk from the prior breakage shouldn't be even be close to the island now.

Those could've been residual from when it fell (after Kaido's flames were gone).

Or it's falling from a further opposite side. Every other visible chunk seems to be consistently going sideways, or rather the island is moving fast enough for the chunks to be left behind while that close during the fall.

Is the island moving sideways or dropping down directly below where Kaidou left it? Make up your minds.

 

[KingTempest]

Uh, I guess that chunk right below the island was from the prior breakage and not just detached itself in that moment, what a coincidence.

Therefir

If you're skydiving and you drop your phone directly below you, and you end up accelerating faster than the phone, you do realize that you'd, run into the phone right?
Now replace phone with chunk and replace you with island

 

[SnookB]

Uh, I guess that chunk right below the island was from the prior breakage and not just detached itself in that moment, what a coincidence.

If it wasn't for the fact that Momo already had moved the island far to the side and any shunk from the prior breakage shouldn't be even be close to the island now.


Is the island moving sideways or dropping down directly below where Kaidou left it? Make up your minds.

No, it could've been a residual chunk that was falling from the opposite side of the rest, so by the time Momo did the pull that chunk basically ended up further to the side.
Also, it's a single chunk vs several others consistently drawn with smoke around them (from moving so fast to the side)

 

[Therefir]

Wouldn't it be better to call others in the calculation group to give their opinion on it?

Making a calc group member thread for this calc would be better honestly, CloverDragon is the only one accepting it currently and I would like to present the issues I have with Clover and other members of the calc group.

Even DontTalkDT disagrees with the calc, you know, the head of our group.

 

[Damage3245]

@Therefir; I'll create some proper calcs for evaluation tomorrow for the other feats Momonosuke displays related to the movement of Onigashima, so we can have a proper evaluation of consistency too. Heading offline for now though.

 

[Therefir]

Therefir

If you're skydiving and you drop your phone directly below you, and you end up accelerating faster than the phone, you do realize that you'd, run into the phone right?
Now replace phone with chunk and replace you with island

Tempest

If you dropped your phone and then hundreds of meters to the side you skydived, the phone would be nowhere to be found falling next to you.

Those fragments are falling next to the island because they just detached from it, period.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

My main issue is that if the island was moving that fast the chunks wouldn't even be there to begin with.

Therefir skipped classes on relative speed.

 

[KingTempest]

@Therefir; I'll create some proper calcs for evaluation tomorrow for the other feats Momonosuke displays related to the movement of Onigashima, so we can have a proper evaluation of consistency too. Heading offline for now though.

"Evaluation of consistency" this isn't another Dressrosa discussion. I and a shit ton of others already know how it's going to play out and it's gonna be the largest waste of time in this verse's history, so with all due respect I humbly ask that we don't waste any time making more calcs of said "consistency".

You're gonna calc a completely different instance of Onigashima (when moved by Kaidou horizontally instead of Momo) and say "Momo couldn't stop these 6-B calcs but he should scale to a High 6-A one? I disagree. We should mark it as an outlier and make Momo scale to these instead, as it's safer".

We have 2 PE calcs of High 6-B, but you're gonna calculate a handful of calcs in the lower end of 6-B and pull out the same Dressrosa stuff.

Making a calc group member thread for this calc would be better honestly, CloverDragon is the only one accepting it currently and I would like to present the issues I have with Clover and other members of the calc group.

Even DontTalkDT disagrees with the calc, you know, the head of our group.

Literally every single CGM has a different issue.

You disagree with the physics behind it, which has been tackled and you haven't even spoken about it in multiple pages.
DT doesn't like the timeframe and he hasn't even tackled the counterarguments against it. He literally has 2 comments, 1 being his response to the calc which has been tackled and covered
Mitch thinks there's a better form of scaling but he never states he has an issue with the calculation. He never flipped on his original "agree with the OP" point, he just says that there can be better alternatives
Damage just doesn't like anyone scaling to it in general
KLol doesn't even wanna be here

 

[KingTempest]

Tempest

If you dropped your phone and then hundreds of meters to the side you skydived, the phone would be nowhere to be found falling next to you.

Those fragments are falling next to the island because they just detached from it, period.

"next to" why are you bringing up fragments falling from horizontal movement as a counter to vertical movement?

 

[Damage3245]

"Evaluation of consistency" this isn't another Dressrosa discussion. I and a shit ton of others already know how it's going to play out and it's gonna be the largest waste of time in this verse's history, so with all due respect I humbly ask that we don't waste any time making more calcs of said "consistency".

Evaluating powerscaling and feats based on consistency is pretty typical for this site, isn't it?

You're gonna calc a completely different instance of Onigashima (when moved by Kaidou horizontally instead of Momo) and say "Momo couldn't stop these 6-B calcs but he should scale to a High 6-A one? I disagree. We should mark it as an outlier and make Momo scale to these instead, as it's safer".
We have 2 PE calcs of High 6-B, but you're gonna calculate a handful of calcs in the lower end of 6-B and pull out the same Dressrosa stuff.

I literally do not see the issue with this... so I'll just address it when the time comes to discuss it. The discussion isn't going to just not happen because it is thought to be a waste of time.

You disagree with the physics behind it, which has been tackled and you haven't even spoken about it in multiple pages.

Just to note, Therefir has been taking a break from the forum for several days which is why he hasn't spoken up about it. His absence isn't a point against him.

 

[KingTempest]

Damage, If you go and calc a bunch of 30 TT calcs to counter this 4 PT calc, literally nothing is going to change.

It's not even like you're changing something in the scaling. You're tackling something that's not accepted yet.

The discussion is useless

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, If you go and calc a bunch of 30 TT calcs to counter this 4 PT calc, literally nothing is going to change.

It's not even like you're changing something in the scaling. You're tackling something that's not accepted yet.

The discussion is useless

Well, technically speaking you're right that nothing would change because the 4 PT isn't being used yet on the profiles.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The PE calcs, the accepted ones, far outclass the KE results. This alone proves that the strength the clouds exert on the island is greater than the Kinetic Energy. There is literally no reason to use the KE anymore, it's useless, it doesn't represent the force Momo has to overcome. This is ridiculous.

 

[Damage3245]

The PE calcs, the accepted ones, far outclass the KE results. This alone proves that the strength the clouds exert on the island is greater than the Kinetic Energy. There is literally no reason to use the KE anymore, it's useless, it doesn't represent the force Momo has to overcome. This is ridiculous.

I don't know how else to say this; but this is actually a situation where we can both be right on this.

 

[KingTempest]

Well, technically speaking you're right that nothing would change because the 4 PT isn't being used yet on the profiles.

So tell me,
What will be the point of making a bigass thread (which nobody except the people that have already spoken inside of here will even open, much less provide input to) when all it's going to do is just hold up revisions? It's literally going to be a waste of time.

 

[Damage3245]

So tell me,
What will be the point of making a bigass thread (which nobody except the people that have already spoken inside of here will even open, much less provide input to) when all it's going to do is just hold up revisions? It's literally going to be a waste of time.

I didn't even say I was going to make a new thread for it yet. I was going to continue the discussion on this thread.

And why do you think that somebody arguing against the revision being accepted is only doing so because they want to hold up the revision? Why can't somebody just disagree with the revision and argue against it?

 

[KingTempest]

I didn't even say I was going to make a new thread for it yet.

And why do you think that somebody arguing against the revision being accepted is only doing so because they want to hold up the revision? Why can't somebody just disagree with the revision and argue against it?

You want to make a separate thread for a revision that isn't even done. That is blatantly holding up the revision, because the revision isn't even done.
This isn't changing something on the profiles that you disagree with. You're making a counter thread to a thread that isn't even ACCEPTED yet.
You can disagree and argue against it in here.

This isn't even settled as a revision. This is still being put forward with new evidence.

 

[Damage3245]

You want to make a separate thread for a revision that isn't even done. That is blatantly holding up the revision, because the revision isn't even done.
This isn't changing something on the profiles that you disagree with. You're making a counter thread to a thread that isn't even ACCEPTED yet.
You can disagree and argue against it in here.

This isn't even settled as a revision. This is still being put forward with new evidence.

I literally never even said that I would make a separate thread.

 

[Therefir]

So tell me,
What will be the point of making a bigass thread (which nobody except the people that have already spoken inside of here will even open, much less provide input to) when all it's going to do is just hold up revisions? It's literally going to be a waste of time.

Anyone can make a thread at any given time if they disagree with something, stop trying to paint it as "holding up" revisions, no one is holding up with anything.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that KT just misinterpreted me.

I didn't say I was trying to make a new thread.

 

[KingTempest]

alright w/e then

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Making a calc group member thread for this calc would be better honestly, CloverDragon is the only one accepting it currently and I would like to present the issues I have with Clover and other members of the calc group.

Even DontTalkDT disagrees with the calc, you know, the head of our group.

@Therefir; I'll create some proper calcs for evaluation tomorrow for the other feats Momonosuke displays related to the movement of Onigashima, so we can have a proper evaluation of consistency too. Heading offline for now though.

I think these comments are what's causing the confusion. Therefir saying a CGM thread would be best followed up by Damages comments of creating new calcs.

 

[Damage3245]

I think these comments are what's causing the confusion. Therefir saying a CGM thread would be best followed up by Damages comments of creating new calcs.

Yeah. My bad for the confusion. Looks like it is settled now though.