One Piece: Old Age God Tier Revision

[KingTempest]

Yeah I'm down and upgrading some people.

Garp​

Spoiler

As strong as he was in his prime

Garp is stated to have gotten weaker. He said his thrown cannonballs don't fly as fast as they used to. Easy statement of declining strength.

Oden​

Spoiler

Attack Potency: Country level+, likely higher (Prior to his prime, he traded blows with a no Buso Whitebeard, who called him dangerous, and he kept fighting with Gol D. Roger's crew for 3 days. He was compared to other members of the Rocks pirates by Whitebeard [first issue]), far higher with Haoshoku infusion (Made a big scar on Zoan Kaido's chest and was about to kill him. Stated to have the greatest sword style at that time, which would include his scabbards, Rayleigh, and Gol D. Roger (second issue). While he knew the full extent of Whitebeard's power, he said that if he couldn't defeat Kaido, then no one could [third issue])

Yeah downgrade this.
#1 The Rocks Pirates were weaker than they were currently. Scaling him to current BM and Kaido is wrong.
#2 Roger was dead when he said this statement. He's a non factor. Scaling him above a dead man for no reason is wrong. Unless it says something like "of all time", then no.
#3 This isn't good enough justification for scaling above his AP. Kaidou was strong because of his stamina. I quote the vivre cards

The Strongest Creature that wish for the destruction of this boring world, "Kaido of the Beasts"!!
7 defeats, 18 times held captive...tortured over a thousand times and executed 40 times, and suicide from jumping down from the height of 10000 meters. Due to his unmatched vitality, none can kill him. Kaido lose hope in this world.

He's not up there at that time for his AP.
Plus Oden and Kaidou at that time in his base being massively stronger than WB when he currently says WB is capable of fighting him is crazy.

Oden can get these as additional justification.

Whitebeard's crew says that he's good in terms of muscle, and Whitebeard said that allowing him on his ship would put his crewmates at risk. As members of Whitebeard's crew are capable of fighting the likes of Rayleigh, he should be at least as strong as Rayleigh. Whitebeard said that Ace was foolish thinking that he could beat someone who beat Oden, and Blackbeard called Oden strong.

Add this as well

Base Kaido acknowledged Oden as one of the few people capable of fighting him.

If yall wanna shorten the justification then by all means, go ahead.

WhiteBeard​

Spoiler

Country level+ (Equal to his old self)

No tf he's not. He's stronger than that.

Ace novel says that he's weaker than he was in his prime when he used to fight Roger.
He's been getting sicker over time.
SBS says that his condition had to be stabilized despite his illness. This damages stamina and such, which is tied to Haki as Luffy couldn't use Haki when his stamina was axed in Udon.

Add this as a justification for Primebeard.

Base Kaido acknowledged Oden as one of the few people capable of fighting him.

And the fact that Kaidou also referred to Whitebeard as mighty.
Stronger than his subordinates Marco, Jozu, Vista, and Ace.

Kaidou​

Spoiler

Attack Potency: Country level+ (Can match a furious Kozuki Oden blow for blow, implied to be comparable to him, and defeated Oden when the latter was stronger than when he'd fought Prime Whitebeard (first issue). Fought and matched Big Mom. Was stated to be one of the few people who can stop Blackbeard. One-shot a pre-Udon Gear 4th Luffy), higher in Zoan Forms (Stronger than before. Knocked back Kozuki Oden with a Boro Breath. His vivre card states that his already-high physical abilities get improved even further in his Hybrid form. Skull said that Kaidou had the highest sheer battle power out of all the Yonko he was aware of (second issue), which means he should be stronger than Whitebeard and Big Mom), far higher with Haoshoku infusion, even higher with Shuron Hakke (His haki is stated to be stronger in this form)

#1 He defeated him because he was offguard. This isn't valid. It was a plot point that is still effective to this day.
#2 Skull said likely based off of information of other pirates. Not the most reliable source.

Sengoku​

Spoiler

Country level+ (As strong as he was in his prime (first issue). Should be comparable if not stronger to the Admirals ranked below him at the time. Fought and matched Blackbeard after the latter had gotten the Gura-Gura no mi)

#1 With the statement of old people being as strong as they were in his prime is contradicted, he should get a "stronger than his old self".
That should be removed. He can keep his old justification

Rayleigh​

Spoiler

Attack Potency: Country level+ (As strong as he is in his old age)

Make him "stronger than before".

Revise all these guys. They shouldn't have these weird scalings.

Edit:​

Marco​

Spoiler

Add this

Was stated to be one of the few people who can stop Blackbeard as of Marineford.

Stated here.

Roger​

Spoiler

Add this as a justification for Roger.
Base Kaido acknowledged Roger as one of the few people capable of fighting him.

Kaidou also referred to Roger as mighty.

 

[Magmag]

agree, simple revision.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

The Kaidou still being #1 statement is probably still valid, but that implies peak to peak

Like Peak Kaidou, being Hao Infusion+Super Hybrid Form+Drunk Form>Peak Emperors

Outside of that, it's up to feats

Everything else is fine

 

[Magmag]

The Kaidou still being #1 statement is probably still valid, but that implies peak to peak

not even top 3
jk, neutral on this part.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah, this makes way more sense than the current justifications. I fully agree with this.

 

[Kachon123]

I agree.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Makes sense. I agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good

 

[PsychoWarper]

Agree with everything, as always nice work King

 

[Elizhaa]

The changes seem fine.

 

[KingTempest]

Marco​

Spoiler

Add this

Stated here.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Looks more solid than Jozu's diamond arms coated in Haki.

I'll shut up now. The point is that I agree.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tempest at it again. Agree, I always disliked P.WB being as strong as an old, sick WB.

Also, how is that going to affect Shanks?

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Shanks is pretty young, I don't think he needs separate keys, unless you want one for one-arm Shanks and one for two-arm Shanks.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Shanks is pretty young, I don't think he needs separate keys, unless you want one for one-arm Shanks and one for two-arm Shanks.

... Well, we consider one arm as 50% one's AP here, so...

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

#3 This isn't good enough justification for scaling above his AP. Kaidou was strong because of his stamina. I quote the vivre cards
He's not up there at that time for his AP.
Plus Oden and Kaidou at that time in his base being massively stronger than WB when he currently says WB is capable of fighting him is crazy.

I disagree. Even going by your interpretation, it actually refers to his durability which scales to his attack potency for harming those who can harm him. And going by the statement at face value, it would involve AP which is consistent with his title being the strongest and not something like "The most stamina creature" or even "the most tough creature".
It's not crazy, it's a small gap and doesn't contradict the statement. Look at yamato for example, she is weaker than kaido yet she can fight and give him a challenge.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Agree with everything.

Besides this
This damages stamina and such, which is tied to Haki as Luffy couldn't use Haki when his stamina was axed in Udon.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

For harming those who can harm him.

Harming Kaido doesn't give you his Durability. Your Dragon Ball is showing.
Kaido never harmed anyone with a durability comparable to him, at the time.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Harming Kaido doesn't give you his Durability. Your Dragon Ball is showing.
Kaido never harmed anyone with a durability comparable to him, at the time.

Oden though. Not just when oden was off guard, he fought him while he was enraged too.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Oden though. Not just when oden was off guard, he fought him while he was enraged too.

Oden doesn't have Kaido's Durability.

 

[WrongIdea21]

Garp​

Spoiler

undefined

Agree

Oden​

Spoiler

Yeah downgrade this.
#1 The Rocks Pirates were weaker than they were currently. Scaling him to current BM and Kaido is wrong.
#2 Roger was dead when he said this statement. He's a non factor. Scaling him above a dead man for no reason is wrong. Unless it says something like "of all time", then no.
#3 This isn't good enough justification for scaling above his AP. Kaidou was strong because of his stamina. I quote the vivre cards
He's not up there at that time for his AP.
Plus Oden and Kaidou at that time in his base being massively stronger than WB when he currently says WB is capable of fighting him is crazy.

Oden can get these as additional justification.

Whitebeard's crew says that he's good in terms of muscle, and Whitebeard said that allowing him on his ship would put his crewmates at risk. As members of Whitebeard's crew are capable of fighting the likes of Rayleigh, he should be at least as strong as Rayleigh. Whitebeard said that Ace was foolish thinking that he could beat someone who beat Oden, and Blackbeard called Oden strong.

If yall wanna shorten the justification then by all means, go ahead.

Oden can match Prime Shirohige in physical strenght, he should scale to Shirohige, in my opinion.

WhiteBeard​

Spoiler

No tf he's not. He's stronger than that.

Ace novel says that he's weaker than he was in his prime when he used to fight Roger.
He's been getting sicker over time.
SBS says that his condition had to be stabilized despite his illness. This damages stamina and such, which is tied to Haki as Luffy couldn't use Haki when his stamina was axed in Udon.

Agree.

Kaidou​

Spoiler

#1 He defeated him because he was offguard. This isn't valid. It was a plot point that is still effective to this day.
#2 Skull said likely based off of information of other pirates. Not the most reliable source.

Agree

Rayleigh​

Sama as Garp case.

Neutral on Marco.

 

[Damage3245]

Good. I'm glad we're not longer relying fully on that dubious "Old people are as strong as they were in their prime" statement.

 

[theultimate5105]

I obviously agree

 

[DiedrichYagami]

Seems nice. I agree.

Tempest at it again. Agree, I always disliked P.WB being as strong as an old, sick WB.

Also, how is that going to affect Shanks?

I think he is going to scale to Oldbeard and that's all. As for the lack of his arm, I don't think it is really relevant since it was stated that his strength wouldn't diminish.

 

[KingTempest]

... Well, we consider one arm as 50% one's AP here, so...

Shanks was specifically stated to have not gotten weaker, so another key is irrelevant

Good. I'm glad we're not longer relying fully on that dubious "Old people are as strong as they were in their prime" statement.

Thanks

I disagree. Even going by your interpretation, it actually refers to his durability

"The strong live... and the weak die! A few minutes earlier, at the ruined sky island, balloon terminal, the man claimed... that he was searching for a place to die. To speak more on this man... he had tasted defeat as a pirate on seven occasions, and been caught by the marines or enemy ships no less than 18 times!! He was tortured time and time again, and lived as a prisoner. And finally, he attempted suicide. The very rare act of suicide by jumping form a sky island... and back to the present. To repeat, this is a man who challenged the marines and four emperors and was caught 18 times-- and endured over a thousand tortures. He was sentenced to death forty times. When he was hanged, the rope snapped. When put under the guillotine, the blade cracked... when skewered, the spear broke. Ultimately, he sank nine different prison vessels. Meaning, none of these people were able to kill him!! And that included he himself!! Kaido, king of the beasts. People say, "in a one-on-one fight, always bet on kaido." Land, sea, and air--out of every living thing in the world... this pirate is said to be the strongest creature alive!!!

It talks about durability twice. Everything else is about how he's unkillable, which is why the Vivre Card mentions his title to his "unmatched Vitality".

which scales to his attack potency for harming those who can harm him.

This is not true in the slightest. Not everyone who harms Kaidou has the durability to take his attacks.

And going by the statement at face value, it would involve AP

Not really

which is consistent with his title being the strongest and not something like "The most stamina creature" or even "the most tough creature".

Whitebeard has a title of being the strongest man and it's attributed to his life of Piracy.

So what will we do now? Since Kaidou's a human and Whitebeard's a creature, we have 2 "strongest pirates" people?

It's not crazy, it's a small gap and doesn't contradict the statement.

Small gap based on nothing at all. All these statements of "strongest strongest" does nothing but signify a large gap between the 1st and 2nd place all over.

Look at yamato for example, she is weaker than kaido yet she can fight and give him a challenge.

You take that skirmish as if Oda himself came and said "Yamato is comparable".

Yamato fought him but was noticeably weaker. These guys aren't "noticeably weaker" in comparison to each other.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

Good. I'm glad we're not longer relying fully on that dubious "Old people are as strong as they were in their prime" statement.

I think it's mostly a problem of determining when someone becomes 'old' in One Piece, as in when they start declining. For example, Big Mom doesn't really have any showings of old age slowing her down, and several characters seem to be in their 'prime' from their late 40s to their late 50s (see all the Admirals, Garp, Kaido, Roger, etc.).

Sengoku didn't seem to be unfit to maintain his status as Fleet Admiral as of Marineford (77 yrs), but seemed to suddenly decline in his appearance in just two years (79 yrs) (even if he was still considered enough of a powerhouse that Jack subordinates could easily foresee Jack getting crushed by taking on three old people).

 

[KingTempest]

I think it's mostly a problem of determining when someone becomes 'old' in One Piece, as in when they start declining. For example, Big Mom doesn't really have any showings of old age slowing her down, and several characters seem to be in their 'prime' from their late 40s to their late 50s (see all the Admirals, Garp, Kaido, Roger, etc.).

Sengoku didn't seem to be unfit to maintain his status as Fleet Admiral as of Marineford (77 yrs), but seemed to suddenly decline in his appearance in just two years (79 yrs) (even if he was still considered enough of a powerhouse that Jack subordinates could easily foresee Jack getting crushed by taking on three old people).

I see where you're coming from, and you're right, but there was a different issue.
The issue was that a lot of these old dudes with statements or narrative implications of inferiority to their prime selves had vague statements of being equal to their older selves. That caused small issues in the scaling and in how we took the strength of certain people

 

[KingTempest]

*I read the rules*I respect the rules, but I will not respect these rules and I will say something that has to do with the series and the post but not with the post

Go to the general discussion to talk about it. Stop derailing the thread

 

[KingTempest]

Alexander is thread banned.
Deleted irrelevant messages.
Don't respond to him and don't talk about him.

 

[Fireld]

Agree with the OP.
More reasons why Sengoku is not as strong as he used to be: Shanks was stated to be both stronger than Sengoku & fight equally with an Admiral. Blackbeard didn't view him & Garp together as threatning as Akainu alone.
Why no mention of Marco's Observation Haki from the vivre card & the new chapter here?

 

[KingTempest]

Agree with the OP.

thanks

More reason why Sengoku is as strong as he used to be: Shanks was stated to be both stronger than Sengoku

I don't speak german so I can't validate that statement, but it's best to use the raw japanese for translations

& fight equally with an Admiral.

Yeah this is true, but the canonicity and validity of that statement is questionable. It's from a jump magazine.

Blackbeard didn't view him & Garp together as threatning as Akainu alone.

Ehhh

Why no mention Marco Observation Haki from the vivre card & the new chapter here?

Marco has observation on his profile. If you mean the new gear 5th additions, we're waiting for Wano to end before we do that

 

[KillerH]

Neutral on Sengoku and Rayleigh, agree with everything else.

 

[Fireld]

thanks

Np

I don't speak german so I can't validate that statement, but it's best to use the raw japanese for translations

Ah, dunno where to find the the raw japanase one. If you're still interested, i do know german & can translate if you want.

Yeah this is true, but the canonicity and validity of that statement is questionable. It's from a jump magazine.

It's consistent with other feats & statements. There's also Mother Caramel in the flashback saying Big Mom's power had the potential to make her a Fleet Admiral in the future IIRC.

Ehhh

You gonna count that as more of Blackbeard cockiness/underestimating the old generation like he did with WB?

Marco has observation on his profile. If you mean the new gear 5th additions, we're waiting for Wano to end before we do that

Ah my bad, i just saw his Notable Attacks/Techniques & it was missing there specifically.

 

[KingTempest]

We have agreeals from DemonGodMitchAubin, UchihaSlayer96, CloverDragon03, DarkDragonMedeus, Elizhaa, MonkeyOfLife, and Damage3245.

As we still have people who contend this, I'll leave it open, but this is technically already accepted. Just letting people know

 

[KingTempest]

Np

Ah, dunno were to find the the raw japanase one. If you're still intereseted, i do know german & can translate if you want.

It's all good, doesn't really mean much, it's just support

It's consistent with other feats & statements. There also Mother Caramel in the flashback saying Big Mom's power had the potential to make her a Fleet Admiral in the future IIRC.

Which is true. Admiral or Fleet Admiral is what she says.

You gonna count that as more of Blackbeard cockiness/underestimating the old generation like he did with WB?

Nada, I'm just not too sure on how to incorporate that

Ah my bad, i just saw his Notable Attack/Teniques & it was missing there specifically.

Gotcha

 

[Archinord991]

Totally agree, this is the most make sense justification than current justification. Thx Tempest for the revision.

 

[KingTempest]

Added Kaidou's statement for Whitebeard, Oden, and Roger being one of the few capable of fighting him to the OP.
Added Kaidou's other statement of Whitebeard and Roger being mighty to the OP.
Added Marco's statement for Whitebeard being the king as implication of superiority to his subordinates to the OP.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Added Marco's statement for Whitebeard being the king as implication of superiority to his subordinates to the OP.

Looks like Kizaru's attack did more damage to a fully healthy Marco than Kaido's Boro Breath.

 

[KingTempest]

Kizaru has dura neg lasers, and Kaidou’s exhausted. Risky scaling on both sides

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

It talks about durability twice. Everything else is about how he's unkillable, which is why the Vivre Card mentions his title to his "unmatched Vitality".
This is not true in the slightest. Not everyone who harms Kaidou has the durability to take his attacks.
Not really
Whitebeard has a title of being the strongest man and it's attributed to his life of Piracy.

So what will we do now? Since Kaidou's a human and Whitebeard's a creature, we have 2 "strongest pirates" people?
Small gap based on nothing at all. All these statements of "strongest strongest" does nothing but signify a large gap between the 1st and 2nd place all over.
You take that skirmish as if Oda himself came and said "Yamato is comparable".

Yamato fought him but was noticeably weaker. These guys aren't "noticeably weaker" in comparison to each other.

Oden. Oden can literally damage oden and oden is able to harm him, they even match each other base to base. He scales to his own durability putting him above wb.

I heard that kaido is not human but is an ogre/oni or something but I'm not sure that's true. That would explain why the titles being contradictory. The strongest pirate title does not entail strength like the scan shows with skull.

No not at all. You said that kaido isn't portrayed to easily overpower the other yonko yourself. "Strongest" is vague and unquantifiable, it's a baseless interpretation on your part.
Okay here I agree. Kaido seems to have been casual against yamato.