@CinCameron20 I appreciate that you came to this thread. Your argument makes sense. You missed a few things discussed in this thread though.
The thread is basically saying 2 things. 1) The verse capping at LS is unfair by saying "Kizaru's LS, so this can't be true" and 2) any valid feats corresponding to LS should not be dropped because of nonexistent outliers.
Kizaru stuff:
1) Your point on how it would be attack speed makes sense, but combat speed would work perfectly fine in this context as well.
Kizaru can
kick with a regular leg with the point of impact turned into light. That sounds confusing.
Kizaru's leg is normal, but his foot is light.
Exhibit A,
Exhibit B,
Exhibit C,
Exhibit D.
Basically, he can move his limbs at SoL. He's shown (presumably) light attributes too, when he's riding on a cannonball as well.
Idk about giving his kicks Attack Speed when he can kick at that speed regularly, especially when we haven't seen any other kicks like that.
2) Would that not give him similar reaction speeds? He turns into a flash of light, moves wherever he wants, then transforms back.
SBS Stuff:
I was using that to emphasize travel speed. But tbh, Brook does have the fastest
travel speed in all of the strawhats.
Blitzed this one guy who should be comparable to the other characters who got one shot, who reacted to the strawhats.
Caught a
hungry Big Mom off guard.
Can run across water, a known travel speed feat.
I'd give him the fastest Travel speed tbh.
Luffy dodging laser: If you check above, that's been argued about a little, but it is full of presumptions. I used that as a supporting feat.
Enel: That's fair.
Zoro vs Light Gun:
The gun flashes a bright light when shot, yes. I meant to emphasize on the fact that he seemingly dodged the bright flash of light. I know it's not a projectile dodging feat or a calcable feat, so I just used it as a supporting feat.
The other instances where he got hit was when he was squinting after the light hit him. After he dodged this flash of light, his eyes weren't squinting, which shows that he did dodge the flash of light.
Foxy stuff: That's fine, it was just to show consistency though.
Kuma stuff: I took a different approach.
I said that Kuma would be the one to slap the air at lightspeed, which would give him LS combat. You can read me and Damage's argument (not really an argument) above (right above your message) for clarification.
The
quote about Ichiji talks about how Oda originally wanted Ichiji to use fire in his attacks instead of light ones, which is why in the Vol. 3 Magazine, his name was going to be Fire Red, but instead, it's Sparking Red now.
I meant to use the wiki points just to show that other people noticed his lasers to be similar in view to the lasers used by Kizaru.
I brought up lightning points to show that Germa used natural elements, via my quote
Another Germa member is also shown to use natural attacks.
The
Judge statement I used was a weak application of Occam's Razor.
I'll copy something I stated above.
The Vinsmoke section (the lower part for Judge) was to show that Ichiji's lasers were related to Kizaru's via Vegapunk's influence, which are accepted as lightspeed.
The Nation of Science portion was connected to the Vegapunk portion, showing that their kingdom is based off of scientific achievements done by Judge and Vegapunk.
Judge worked with someone who manufactured lightspeed lasers.
Because of that man's tech, his kingdom is what it is today.
His son can use lasers. I fail to see why they would nitpick technology to give to him.
And my quote in the Sandbox.
Someone could say "but the Pacifista were made recently. Why would Judge know about that?"
Vegapunk had his information about laser technology on his home island Karakuri Island. We know laser tech was there since Franky was able to mimic it from his island. Vegapunk had those notes there
as a youth, which means the laser tech that Franky rediscovered was extremely old (
which is no surprise, as it's stated that Vegapunk's knowledge was 500 years above his time).
Vegapunk wasn't able to do what he wanted
because he was poor and didn't have the resources. He ended up working w/ a research team for the sole purpose of developing weapons. Vegapunk & Judge's research is
the reason why Germa was turned into the Kingdom of Science, and Ichiji shouldn't be an exception.
There's no reason why Judge wouldn't find out about lightspeed lasers from him.
Basically, Ichiji has lasers via someone who worked w/ someone who manufactured lightspeed lasers based off of a man made out of light.
My "in favor" points.
1. Flash Gun - I agree, but the one feat where he dodged should be taken as a valid supporting feat.
2. Enel's Reaction Speed - I agree with you here.
3.
Noro Noro Photons - A tier jump in speed would still be good. Most of Pre TS out of the high tiers and Marineford G4 Luffy scale to Kalifa, who's mach 1192. Sub rel calcs and feats would be extremely appreciated and benefitial.
4. Kuma slap - I used the Air Pad statement to say "Kuma slaps the air at lightspeed" instead of the classic "the air moves at lightspeed", which would give Kuma LS combat. From shown feats,
nobody scales to it, and Zoro blitzing Kuma pre ts is just PIS and an outlier, since Kuma blitzed a healthier Zoro.
- Post TS Luffy is fair. Kid was off guard and still barely dodged it. Law could just be a reaction case and a supporting feat. The Straw-Hats getting aim dodging isn't supported either.
- Zoro dodged it after it moved during Thriller Bark
- Luffy and Ivankov dodged it after it moved a bunch of times, and Ivankov had that one calc (which I can not find) about sending Luffy faster than the laser can hit him, which brought ftl results.
With the Ivankov one, the feat is on this page and before, and he had a feat where he rolled away from another laser on the next page.
8. LS Niji and Ichiji -
The Wiki's Lightspeed Laser Page Requirements
Stated to be light.
Realistic source of light, someone who is technologically enhanced via research of Vegapunk, who (read first counter).
- Also showed to use Natural elements and such (via the realistic Niji lightning shown in my sandbox)
Lightspeed via Vegapunk tech who manufactured LS lasers.
Moves in a straight line.
Qualities of Light IRL
Shows the color theory of light very well, as they are rainbow lasers.
Showcases intensity a lot, as it can blind Oven.
Showcases illumination a lot, as it darkens areas that it passes by.
We can add on that their bodies are shown to be technologically modified, showed by
Vinsmoke Yonji's Winch Green's body enhancements.
Basically, 2 qualities of light (3 if we take Vegapunk's involvement w/ Germa tech) via the wiki, and 3 outside the wiki.
Wiki - Light statement (via databook), realistic source (high tech modified human), lightspeed (via Vegapunk tech involvement).
IRL - Color Theory, Intensity, Illumination
Also Cin and anyone else who reads this, how is this?
Damage asked if I was saying that Kizaru was holding back in terms of speed.
Exactly.
The only ways to strike with a weaker energy output is to get slower.
In case the argument of "he can change his mass" pops up, F = MA and KE = 1/2MV, which means F/M = A or 2*KE/M = V.
Since Kizaru is light and can apply force while moving at lightspeed, since he's shown that he can lighten his mass even further (while riding on a cannonball), it means that he would get faster if he lightens himself any further, which he has shown he can do.
Faster than what he already is = faster than light.
Conclusion:
There are a few people who do have that (Kizaru, Pacifista, Franky, Foxy, possibly Niji, I might be missing some).
However, there are some LS feats that can be taken into consideration, and Ichiji can possibly have LS attack speed, and (possibly) ftl combat for outrunning his lasers.
Luffy saying the pacifista (or the beam, I'm pointing towards the beam via the discussion in the beginning) being slow can just be used as a support feat.
Zoro dodging can be used as a support feat as well. If it can be calced, that would be good, the mechanics on the feats do show an issue (so I agree with you there).
vsbattles.fandom.com
