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KingTempest

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VS Battles
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A few issues I've brought up in this thread.

I ask that no scaling be brought up in here.

Franky, the Pacifista, and Ichjii shouldn't have likely's or possibly's on their Lightspeed lasers. It should straight up be Speed of Light.

Pacifista​

Currently, it's profile says this.

Speed: Possibly Speed of Light with laser beams (These beams work the same way as Kizaru's light beams)

The Pacifista's lasers were noted by X Drake to be Kizaru's lasers.
Before he said his detailed explanation, he says "that was Kizaru's laser". He didn't say "it's similar to Kizaru's lasers", he said "it's Kizaru's laser".

He shouldn't get a Possibly for having the exact same laser.

Franky​

Speed: Likely Speed of Light with Franky Radical Beam (Caesar Clown stated that only Vegapunk, who based his in Kizaru's power could create a laser beam. And Franky got this technology from Vegapunk's laboratory)

Caesar Clown says that Franky has one of Vegapunk's lasers in his body. Another translation.
He also says that on another occasion. Another translation.

Basically, Vegapunk's the only person with laser tech.

Basically, Vegapunk's the only person to manufacture laser tech from scratch, and everybody else who made it basically replicated it off of Vegapunk, so anyone with laser tech (Franky) should get it.

Franky shouldn't get a "likely" for the same exact technique.

Ichiji​

Speed: Likely Speed of Light movement and attack with Sparking Valkyrie (Functions similarly to light beams and should be capable of moving at such speeds. Given that Ichiji's younger brother Niji is stated to move at light-speed with his Henry Blazer attack, it's reasonable to suggest he too can move with such speed)"

I already said why his lasers would be LS on this thread. It got "likely" for being similar.

Sanji basically says that the laser used by Franky and the Raid Suit are the same.

Luffy says that Sanji would be able to shoot lasers. 99% sure this is based off of him seeing another Raid Suit user (Ichiji)) use lasers. Sanji says that only Franky needs laser tech.

Caesar Clown says that Vegapunk's the only person he knows who can make laser tech. He also knows about Judge from his mini interaction with him, and from the fact that they both worked with Vegapunk in the past..

In Conclusion​

They should have straight Speed of Light Lasers.
 
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I haven't reached that part yet, but looking at what was shown in the OP, this is very conscientious, I agree.
 
I'm fine with it for Franky and Kuma.

I'm a lot less certain for Ichiji.

Sanji basically says that the laser used by Franky and the Raid Suit are the same.

He doesn't actually say that Ichiji's ability is the same as Franky's. He's responding to Luffy and Chopper talking about laser beams.

Luffy says that Sanji would be able to shoot lasers. 99% sure this is based off of him seeing another Raid Suit user (Ichiji)) use lasers. Sanji says that only Franky needs laser tech.

While it's possible he's referring to Ichiji, it could also be him referring to the high-tech that Germa has shown in general.

Caesar Clown says that Vegapunk's the only person he knows who can make laser tech. He also knows about Judge from his mini interaction with him, and from the fact that they both worked with Vegapunk in the past..

If Vegapunk is the only person he knows who can make lasers, and he knows Judge personally, then wouldn't that suggest that he doesn't think that Judge can make lasers?

As for Ichiji's ability specifically, what are the conditions for lightspeed that his attacks fulfill? Going in a straight line and his ability being said to be light? It is possible that the energy beams he shoots out are made out of light, without being beams of light themselves. As far as I can tell Ichiji's attacks aren't stated to be lightspeed anywhere, unlike Niji's.
 
I'm agree with Kuma and Franky's lasers but I don't know about Ichiji.
 
Ichiji does seem pretty iffy imo, but kuma and franky seem valid yeah. I'll wait on further arguments on ichiji before I take a stance on it.
 
Like Damage and Griffin, I agree with Franky and Kuma's lasers. I'm not so sure about Ichiji though.
 
He doesn't actually say that Ichiji's ability is the same as Franky's. He's responding to Luffy and Chopper talking about laser beams.
Sanji says "Franky's the only one on the crew with Gimmicks like that".
From what we know in OP, Sanji has only seen 3 lasers pre WCI. Kizaru's, Pacifista's, and Franky's, all the same laser.

If he thought it was anything else, he would've just said "i don't need lasers"
While it's possible he's referring to Ichiji, it could also be him referring to the high-tech that Germa has shown in general.
No because all he's seen from Germa is flight and fake DF powers.

There's no valid reason for why Luffy would think that Sanji could just use one of the most complex technologies if he wasn't referring to another instance when they could use that.

This is like me seeing a microwave in action then thinking that it could produce a black hole for no reason.

If Vegapunk is the only person he knows who can make lasers, and he knows Judge personally, then wouldn't that suggest that he doesn't think that Judge can make lasers.
Then this would mean that he wouldn't be able to produce his own lasers, and Vegapunk's technology is the way to go.
Vegapunk is the only person who can produce lasers via his own tech.
He knows of Franky and he still said that statement.
I quote from my sandbox in the other thread
Vegapunk & Judge's research is the reason why Germa was turned into the Kingdom of Science, and Ichiji shouldn't be an exception.
As for Ichiji's ability specifically, what are the conditions for lightspeed that his attacks fulfill? Going in a straight line and his ability being said to be light? It is possible that the energy beams he shoots out are made out of light, without being beams of light themselves. As far as I can tell Ichiji's attacks aren't stated to be lightspeed anywhere, unlike Niji's.
Damage, we've already discussed this in the other thread I linked in the OP.
The Wiki's Lightspeed Laser Page Requirements
Stated to be light.
Realistic source of light, someone who is technologically enhanced via research of Vegapunk, who (read first counter).
  • Also showed to use Natural elements and such (via the realistic Niji lightning shown in my sandbox)
Lightspeed via Vegapunk who manufactured LS lasers.

Moves in a straight line.

Qualities of Light IRL
Shows the color theory of light very well, as they are rainbow lasers.
Showcases intensity a lot, as it can blind Oven.
Showcases illumination a lot, as it darkens areas that it passes by.
 
No because all he's seen from Germa is flight and fake DF powers.
There's no valid reason for why Luffy would think that Sanji could just use one of the most complex technologies if he wasn't referring to another instance when they could use that.
This is like me seeing a microwave in action then thinking that it could produce a black hole for no reason.

Doesn't Chopper say it at the same time, and he wasn't there to see Ichiji shooting beams?

Stated to be light.

Technically not in the manga itself. We don't know what the exact wording is from the Vivre Card but that would be helpful to have. Also having "light abilities" and that attack being lightspeed isn't the same thing though I know this is just one of the supporting points.

Realistic source of light, someone who is technologically enhanced via research of Vegapunk, who (read first counter).

It isn't confirmed that Ichiji's abilities are derived from Vegapunk. Ichiji is technologically enhanced but whether that qualifies as a "realistic source", I don't know.

Moves in a straight line.

Agreed.

Lightspeed via Vegapunk who manufactured LS lasers.

I don't think that this is applicable to Ichiji's attack. A lightspeed statement for another attack in the series isn't a blanket statement for all beams in the series.

Shows the color theory of light very well, as they are rainbow lasers.

That might be fair, but none of the other laser beams in the series have this same effect.

Showcases intensity a lot, as it can blind Oven.
Showcases illumination a lot, as it darkens areas that it passes by.

Being able to produce light isn't the same thing as all his attacks being lightspeed.
 
Ichiji's Lasers are said to be light, they come from a reliable source (Literally the same technology as his brother uses to moves on Lightspeed), they move in a straight line, and are visibly similar to light (rainbow colors).

I do believe that Ichiji Lasers are SoL. My only implication would be with his FTL feat and how it's affects the scaling (But here is no place to discuss it).
 
Technically not in the manga itself. We don't know what the exact wording is from the Vivre Card but that would be helpful to have.
We've never done this for any databook statement from the Library of Ohara, ever.
Also having "light abilities" and that attack being lightspeed isn't the same thing though I know this is just one of the supporting points.
That's why the rest is here, to justify it being lightspeed.
It isn't confirmed that Ichiji's abilities are derived from Vegapunk. Ichiji is technologically enhanced but whether that qualifies as a "realistic source", I don't know.
The ability is produced via the raid suit + the person most likely, which is why we never see him use it outside of the raid suit.
It is a technological suit, and Ryuga said it better than I could.
They come from a reliable source (Literally the same technology as his brother uses to moves on Lightspeed)
This should've been good by itself.
I don't think that this is applicable to Ichiji's attack. A lightspeed statement for another attack in the series isn't a blanket statement for all beams in the series.
I quote
Vegapunk & Judge's research is the reason why Germa was turned into the Kingdom of Science, and Ichiji shouldn't be an exception.
If Vegapunk's lasers are the reason that Ichiji's lasers are a thing, then it should scale.
That might be fair, but none of the other laser beams in the series have this same effect.
Don't steal my phrase, only I say fair Fair,
Being able to produce light isn't the same thing as all his attacks being lightspeed.
Emphasizing the incandescence properties that real lasers share.
 
We've never done this for any databook statement from the Library of Ohara, ever.

Okay? That's just because there's often not a lot of controversial material. Still, the things I've seen from the Library of Ohara look more like summaries from the writer there than the actual translated statements in full. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

The ability is produced via the raid suit + the person most likely, which is why we never see him use it outside of the raid suit.
It is a technological suit, and Ryuga said it better than I could.

Fair enough.

If Vegapunk's lasers are the reason that Ichiji's lasers are a thing, then it should scale.

That isn't something that has been confirmed yet. That's like giving Vegapunk "Poison Manipulation" because he's worked with people who work with poison.

EDIT: I think there's enough info for Ichiji's lasers to be reasonably assumed as lightspeed which was why I was fine with the "Likely Lightspeed" on the other thread. Just pointing out issues I have with the reasoning and with 100% stating his attacks to be lightspeed.

And my bigger concerns are with the implications on scaling.
 
Okay? That's just because there's often not a lot of controversial material. Still, the things I've seen from the Library of Ohara look more like summaries from the writer there than the actual translated statements in full. Maybe I'm wrong on that.
Yes, they are summaries.
That isn't something that has been confirmed yet. That's like giving Vegapunk "Poison Manipulation" because he's worked with people who work with poison.
Vegapunk is knowledgeable about every field of science in the show (which includes poison) and we see him on camera working with poison next to the guy who's made of poison, plus he created gas proof suits.. With all due respect, he is the worst example you could've come up with.

The difference is that Vegapunk's science isn't influenced by theirs, while everyone's science is influenced by his.

Kaido's fruit is the reason why Momonosuke's fruit is a thing. Momonosuke has some of Kaido's powers.
Kizaru's fruit is the reason why Vegapunk's laser tech is the thing, and it produces the exact same laser.

Also, speaking of that, that could've been a reason why Reiju works with poison, because of Vegapunk who works with poison. Makes a lot of sense.

Your argument showed that a lot of things modeled by other things in the series share many similarities.
EDIT: I think there's enough info for Ichiji's lasers to be reasonably assumed as lightspeed which was why I was fine with the "Likely Lightspeed" on the other thread. Just pointing out issues I have with the reasoning.
The point of the thread is to remove the "likely".
 
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Anyway this is pretty straight forward. I agree with @CinCameron20 & @Damage3245 on all points. Ichi is not LS outside of mayybe (And that is a big maybe) when using one attack. Looks like his ability is explosions more than light.
 
I think the OP looks solid, but Damage does make good points about Ichi.
 
Cin said in both threads that he was fine with the lasers being lightspeed and he was fine with FTL One Piece if it's consistent, so I don't know what you're agreeing with.
2) I would personally drop the Ichiji topic solely because we don't fully understand how his Valkyrie attack is deployed since we only see it in action after he's moved from his original position. He probably only moves that fast when using that technique (and similar ones PRESUMABLY).
  • We can ASSUME it comes from his hands and ONLY his hands, but that's not confirmed (unless there's a statement somewhere that I've never seen).
I'd probably just change it to "Speed of Light Movement and Attack Speed when using Sparking Valkyrie", but that's it, really.

Also keep in mind that a lot of the light beams are way ahead of other ones. It wouldn't make sense for them all to have varying speeds unless Ichiji shot them off simultaneously. There's probably more to this than we know.


Pretty black and white
 
2) I would personally drop the Ichiji topic solely because we don't fully understand how his Valkyrie attack is deployed since we only see it in action after he's moved from his original position. He probably only moves that fast when using that technique (and similar ones PRESUMABLY).
  • We can ASSUME it comes from his hands and ONLY his hands, but that's not confirmed (unless there's a statement somewhere that I've never seen).
I'd probably just change it to "Speed of Light Movement and Attack Speed when using Sparking Valkyrie", but that's it, really.

Also keep in mind that a lot of the light beams are way ahead of other ones. It wouldn't make sense for them all to have varying speeds unless Ichiji shot them off simultaneously. There's probably more to this than we know.


Pretty black and white
Cin in LS not lifting
We could give him "Speed of Light" Attack speed though if his ability does indeed function as light (which you seem to prove).
Cin in Regarding FTLKaido
But overall, if FTL is consistent, I'm willing to accept this (even though it's ironic that Kizaru would be using transportation via a power that's slower than himsel--well to be fair, travel-speed in OP is very very slow)
So...
 
Btw I do not see Queen in the list. Why is that?
His lasers will be discussed post Wano.

It's uniformly accepted that his lasers are the same, but there's not enough proof for it other than "it charges up like the pacifista's", "it looks like the pacifista's", and "he's a scientist", so I ignored it
I legit do not know why you are arguing with me at this point lol
Mannn I'm bored I feel like arguing lmao
 
We can ASSUME it comes from his hands and ONLY his hands, but that's not confirmed (unless there's a statement somewhere that I've never seen).
Just wanna say it says light fist...
DYYzkSUU8AAjBXL.jpg
 
Screw it.

Do you guys want to tackle Queen's lasers?
  • It is stated to be composed/consisting of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source.
We see it being formed via particles (99% sure it's photons) and the Kanji is the same one used by the other light users.
  • It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera.
Robotic Mouth of a Cyborg.

And it resembles Kizaru's/Pacifista's/Franky's laser in the way it's being formed.
 
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