One Piece: Kenbunshoku Reactions

[Agnaa]

Isn't that combat speed?

Combat speed needs to be useful for attacking. Either a movement that can be used to attack (i.e. blocking a bullet with a sword), or multiple movements in sequence that could be used in close-quarter exchanges.

Reaction's just a movement or two that you can't really use offensively.

Not just precog, they can react to things much faster than they're capable of reacting to regularly. It's a reactions amp.

Tied to the reactions page, not reaction speed

Consider listing that on the Haki page, ig.

idk what you mean by "reactions page and not reaction speed". The reactions/perceptions page covers reaction speed and perception speed. It's just an elaboration on them, there's not really a separation.

EDIT: I'd also caution that reacting to things better than they could otherwise doesn't mean it's a stat amp. If you can see 5 seconds into the future you can react to things before they happen, which is better than you'd have otherwise, but you haven't actually had your reaction speed increased, you're just able to learn about events earlier.

 

[SnookB]

it's because sentomaru mentions haki, but that was for Luffy's ATTACK instead his dodge. Sentomaru didn't comment on haki when he dodged, but when he one-shotted PX using invisible armament

 

[KingTempest]

it's because sentomaru mentions haki, but that was for Luffy's ATTACK instead his dodge. Sentomaru didn't comment on haki when he dodged, but when he one-shotted PX using invisible armament

He blatantly said "Armament Haki", so that's that. Different translations cut out the Buso but the raws quite blatantly say "Color of Armament"

 

[Eminiteable]

Reaction speed has been turned into speed of reacting to movements, so small dodges or blocks, and it's usually scaled to combat speed when people can combat others' reaction speed

Wasn't aware of the change, thanks.

 

[KingTempest]

Wasn't aware of the change, thanks.

Apparently it's always been like that, but we do a shit job of splitting "reactions" and "reaction speed"

 

[Kachon123]

@Kachon123 I don't see how that makes it more likely that he didn't.

Are you being serious?


If something is not seen, implied, or stated, why would we every assume that a character did said thing?

It's even worse than the reason you disagreed with the Brook addition in this CRT.

we don't actually see Brook directly fighting Black Maria at any point, or proof that her injuries were done by him.

At least in Brook's case we see Black Maria with cuts on her forhead, which could be assumed to be caused by Brook, but in this case, we have absolutely nothing that supports Luffy using Kenbun.

 

[SnookB]

He blatantly said "Armament Haki", so that's that. Different translations cut out the Buso but the raws quite blatantly say "Color of Armament"

There ya go.
Only people assume he used kenbun to downplay reactions which he arguably had even pre-ts, just after 2 years were done far, far more effortlessly. Nothing else even hints at it.

 

[Damage3245]

@Kachon123 I don't agree that it's not implied.

On a side-note, I think it's a bit funny that you think it is implied that Luffy would use Observation Haki to dodge a bullet, but wouldn't use it to dodge a laser beam.

 

[Kachon123]

On a side-note, I think it's a bit funny that you think it is implied that Luffy would use Observation Haki to dodge a bullet, but wouldn't use it to dodge a laser beam.

Irrelevant

 

[Nierre]

Only people assume he used kenbun to downplay reactions

No one is trying to downplay. Quit with the accusations.

 

[Kachon123]

@Kachon123 I don't agree that it's not implied.

Elaborate.

 

[KingTempest]

@Kachon123 I don't agree that it's not implied.

On a side-note, I think it's a bit funny that you think it is implied that Luffy would use Observation Haki to dodge a bullet, but wouldn't use it to dodge a laser beam.

Bullet he wasn't looking at that was behind his head that he never experienced before (didn't know Demaro Black had a laser)* vs a laser that he has dealt years prior and also seconds prior

Usually dodging stuff you're not looking at is signs of Kenbun. See Skypiea

 

[Kachon123]

No one is trying to downplay. Quit with the accusations.

Given the fact that if people were to look at the scene for more than 2 minutes, they would realize that Sentomaru's comment on Luffy's haki usage was referring to the Jet Pistol, not dodging the beam, I feel like it's not a far-fetched accusation.

 

[SnookB]

No one is trying to downplay. Quit with the accusations.

I'm sorry, but forcing an interpertation that isn't implied, written, hinted at, spoken of in an outside magazine, mentioned by the author and trying to argue it as 'possible' fact? That's blatant attempt at downplaying.
If someone doesn't believe it's the case then don't talk about it as if it is and move in. If you argue it against all evidence suggesting otherwise.. Come on now.

 

[Damage3245]

Given the fact that if people were to look at the scene for more than 2 minutes, they would realize that Sentomaru's comment on Luffy's haki usage was referring to the Jet Pistol, not dodging the beam, I feel like it's not a far-fetched accusation.

Who said Sentomaru's usage of it was for Observation and not Armament?

 

[KingTempest]

Good points ngl

 

[Nierre]

On a side-note, I think it's a bit funny that you think it is implied that Luffy would use Observation Haki to dodge a bullet, but wouldn't use it to dodge a laser beam.

TBF he used it in Wano when he first landed on the island even though he most definitely didn't need to

 

[KingTempest]

TBF he used it in Wano when he first landed on the island even though he most definitely didn't need to

Needed to, he wasn't looking at that bullet, didn't know it was coming till Kenbun told him it was

 

[Kachon123]

Who said Sentomaru's usage of it was for Observation and not Armament?

If that's not the implications you were referring to, then I have no idea what implications you were talking about.

 

[Nierre]

The scene shows him looking straight at the gun before his Kenbun kicked in.

 

[KingTempest]

The scene shows him looking straight at the gun before his Kenbun kicked in.

There were 2 shooters, one he looked at, the other he kenbun'd sensed.

He spotted the first shooter then sensed the second

 

[SnookB]

Who said Sentomaru's usage of it was for Observation and not Armament?

Haki 'reinforcement' is what I checked it to say. Anime says 'he used haki', but doesn't specify.
Sentomaru doesn't react to the dodge, he reacts to the punch's power. You don't sense kenbun being used. You can see/sense armament if you yourself have kenbun.

 

[Nierre]

ooh thanks for the clarification on that then

although does he really need Kenbun for bullets..

with the speed and senses he has at this point at least

 

[Damage3245]

ooh thanks for the clarification on that then

although does he really need Kenbun for bullets..

with the speed and senses he has at this point at least

Well, look at it from another perspective. He doesn't need to dodge bullets fired by the Beast Pirates anyway, considering his durability and resistance to blunt force, but he does so anyway.

So he's just using Haki to flex on them.

If we tried to apply our ratings logically to every scene of the manga, Luffy would Za Warudo timestop with his level of speed and walk over to the Beast Pirates before the bullets had crossed a few centimerers from their guns.

 

[KingTempest]

Well, look at it from another perspective. He doesn't need to dodge bullets fired by the Beast Pirates anyway, considering his durability and resistance to blunt force, but he does so anyway.

So he's just using Haki to flex on them.

Tbh these dudes got seastone bullets, Luffy's smart enough to know that when a "danger sense" comes in, he should probably listen to it

 

[SnookB]

ooh thanks for the clarification on that then

although does he really need Kenbun for bullets..

with the speed and senses he has at this point at least

I doubt he 'needed' to use it. Kenbun is usually an automatic danger sense, so it probably alerts you regardless or not whether you can react to something.
Besides- he came out of an arc vs an observation master, he was spamming it against jail fodder too when he didn't need to. Probably just training it through usage

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Bullets in One Piece are extremely inconsistenty. Dudes are Tier 6 and random bullets still can hurt them

 

[Kachon123]

Elaborate.

 

[KingTempest]

You talm bout elaborate like it’s not true

 

[Damage3245]

I doubt he 'needed' to use it. Kenbun is usually an automatic danger sense, so it probably alerts you regardless or not whether you can react to something.
Besides- he came out of an arc vs an observation master, he was spamming it against jail fodder too when he didn't need to. Probably just training it through usage

Pretty much. Maybe Luffy didn't need to use Observation Haki against the Pacifista, and I'm not saying that he 110% needed to and there's no scenario where he couldn't use not used Observation Haki; but Luffy is an experienced user of it at this point and uses it to dodge things as inconsequential as bullets. His casual dodge of the Pacifista's attack (combined with him one-shotting it moments later with Armament Haki) is the implication here as the scene is showing Luffy's mastery of his powers following the timeskip. It's one-two punch of displaying his Haki; the casual dodge for Observation and the casual beat-down with Armament.

@KingTempest I think he was just reposting his request for elaboration from me.

 

[Shadyboi0]

agree with the premise

 

[Kachon123]

You talm bout elaborate like it’s not true

Damage said that he doesn't agree that there are no implications.

I'm asking for the what he means, as when I assumed what the implications he was talking about were, I was wrong.

 

[KingTempest]

My bad

 

[Kin201]

I still think he used Kenbun to dodge the laser. But what if we cannot settle whether he used Kenbun or not?

 

[KingTempest]

I still think he used Kenbun to dodge the laser. But what if we cannot settle whether he used Kenbun or not?

Then we assume the default assumption, that he didn’t, since someone with Kenbun didn’t note that he used Kenbun, nothing signifies that he used Kenbun, he didn’t sense it prior, didn’t aimdodge, etc.

 

[Damage3245]

I still think he used Kenbun to dodge the laser. But what if we cannot settle whether he used Kenbun or not?

The default position, when both options are equally possible, is that it could have been either possibility.

Personally I don't think it makes a great deal of difference either way.

 

[Kachon123]

The default position, when both options are equally possible, is that it could have been either possibility.

Not in this case. We would have to assume that what was shown is what happened.

 

[Damage3245]

Not in this case.

Let's agree to disagree on that. No evidence has been offered up that he didn't use Observation Haki, so it is impossible to claim that this is 100% a feat for base Luffy.

 

[Kachon123]

No evidence has been offered up that he didn't use Observation Haki

Do you seriously not see the issue in what you're saying?

 

[SnookB]

To me it makes little difference.
If it's observation haki Luffy calling light too slow, it's LS for Luffy with kenbun
If not, then it's LS reactions for Luffy without it. Regardless, the at least LS reaction is there for Luffy, as it's written, stated and intended.