One Piece: Kenbunshoku Reactions

[GodlyCharmander]

You said this, what else could you have meant by "reading movements" you're trying to downplay luffy.

The person I was responding to, GodlyCharmander, said that, and I was continuing to engage in his hypothetical.

I do not care one iota about whether Luffy did it with haki or not, and I don't know how to evaluate whether he did. I'm just responding to people in the thread using the words that they use. Go argue with Godly if you want to discuss this point.

Because of the statement and what hes referring to with that statement... You are talking about an interpretation of luffys movement speed with the laser...

It's not just using a different interpretation, it's using a whole different method which does not use assumptions or as much assumptions as the thing you are talking about, it's luffy calling the laser slow while it's moving

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

Why are you guys arguing on luffy's movement speed using pixel calc or an assumption based on how much he moved to dodge it. That doesn't matter even if he were moving slower than light speed which I don't think he was, the light attack was certainly moving at ls. And luffy saw that as slow, therefore his reaction speed should be above ls. Plus wasn't this about if observation haki users automatically qualify for lightspeed reaction?

Reaction speed requires movement.

Having SoL perception speed requires being able to process that a lightspeed object has started moving before it has traveled more than 1 meter.

Because it's grasping at straws. Plain and simple. We are not saying Luffy should follow the laser with his eyes and slow motion like he's in that one Spider-Man scene, or like he's Barry Allen.

Furthermore, this is a non-issue, we don't see the "before" or "present", the panel just show us the aftermath. Luffy may have been looking at the laser and when it got past him, just threw the line. Of course it's jutdt a hypothesis. We have no way of knowing, so it's a moot point for both sides.

I saw other people arguing otherwise, but if you think it's a moot point, I'm fine with dropping it.

You see, this can go both ways, it may go upwards as well. But you do agree that putting your character at a situation where he says "X thing is slow" is a direct indicative that your character is not slower than said thing, right? Why would Oda send mixed messages to the viewer, this doesn't make sense from a writing standpoint which we do have to consider.

I've repeated this over and over again, but to say it one more time.

"X thing is slow" is a different statement than dodging X and saying "Too slow".

Yes, the object being referred to is X, but the context is different.

A lot of times, characters call something "too slow" to mean "that object is moving at a speed which is insufficient to hit me", and that can occur while being slower than the object, if the object's movements are telegraphed.

I don't think it's sending mixed messages to fall into that really common trope.

Or in other words, "Slow" does not always mean "Slower than me", it can mean "Not fast enough to deal with me".

This interpretation does not work when you consider Luffy has dodged and dealt with lasers way before the Timeskip. It already wasn't enough to deal with him even though he was slower, he was overwhelmed by either Lightspeed Danmaku or surprise attacks.

Thus, the line informing the viewer "I am Luffy, and I can dodge these lasers" does not work. It has been established he can do that when he was slower. For this reason I believe the interpretation where Luffy is actually just considering it slow when in comparison to him (which, again, is the Occam's Razor) is more likely.

But what you're ignoring is, Luffy already had a reaction around 0.5c, or half the speed of light before training. Now, he is so fast that he can speedblitz character who could absolutely fodderized his past self. Not only does it make senpse with his massive speed boost over the last two years, but it also have no tangible consequences in the scaling whatsoever, as the feat of blitzing Luffy's reactions has yet to happen, the closest one to do that being Kaidou, a faster-than-light opponent. I believe the line works as a perfect supporting evidence for this.

We usually give "At least (old rating)" in those sorts of situations. We don't assume multipliers, and we don't stack calcs to get higher results off of those blitzes. So if the main crux is that stuff, I don't think it's sufficient to solidly give a new rating.

You miss my point.

My point is, "Luffy is so overwhelmingly faster than before, which was already relatively close to LS, that the amount of evidence needed to prove he has LS reactions should be exponentially lower", thus making the line a sufficient evidence.

 

[Agnaa]

This interpretation does not work when you consider Luffy has dodged and dealt with lasers way before the Timeskip. It already wasn't enough to deal with him even though he was slower, he was overwhelmed by either Lightspeed Danmaku or surprise attacks.

Thus, the line informing the viewer "I am Luffy, and I can dodge these lasers" does not work. It has been established he can do that when he was slower. For this reason I believe the interpretation where Luffy is actually just considering it slow when in comparison to him (which, again, is the Occam's Razor) is more likely.

I don't know why him having dodged lasers in the past means the author can't, again, point out that he can dodge lasers for a cool scene against fodder enemies that have lasers.

There's a whole bunch of considerations in writing, and "never repeating information" is pretty low. Hell, it's often a good thing to repeat information.

So I do not agree with the conclusion you reach by abstracting to this meta level.

My point is, "Luffy is so overwhelmingly faster than before, which was already relatively close to LS, that the amount of evidence needed to prove he has LS reactions should be exponentially lower", thus making the line a sufficient evidence.

That other evidence is consistent with all interpretations, so I don't think it makes any interpretation more likely.

I guess I can see how you can see otherwise, if you see all of that as a massive amp over 0.57c. But then it still seems really strange me that you'd be advocating for the exact value of SoL (moving in reaction to an event at exactly the speed of light, or perceiving events in the time that light can move 1 meter, but no sooner), instead of FTL. But if you think you've already said as much as you can about that topic, feel free to ignore this.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Because of the statement and what hes referring to with that statement... You are talking about an interpretation of luffys movement speed with the laser...

It's not just using a different interpretation, it's using a whole different method which does not use assumptions or as much assumptions as the thing you are talking about, it's luffy calling the laser slow while it's moving

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

Think like monkey... Everything is blunt and straightforward I think ... Idk, bye

Us = luffy dodges laser and calls it slow while it's going past him = blatant information gathered of the laser and luffy's reactions
You guys?= luffys dodge is this speed, which is slower than the laser via calculation + he could've aimdodged + you can be slower while calling something slow at the same time = fan calcs, interpretations and assumption + dismissing the above one

Do you understand now what I mean? I mean that your using something completely different and a different interpretation to kinda hide the fact he called the laser slow while it's moving past his head

But yee, bye... I don't like debating, I think I have said what I needed to say... But I will correct things if I see misinfo

 

[Agnaa]

I'd agree that it's a different interpretation of the feat, but I think it's weird to say they're using different amounts of assumptions or hiding anything.

Feats need to be interpretated. Even statements can be calc'd. We're both dismissing each other's views by arguing for one over the other.

And again you're saying "he called it slow while it moved past his head" without responding to my point about the front of the beam seeming to have already gone way past his head in that panel :v

Apologies in advance if I shouldn't have responded with you saying that you don't like debating.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This interpretation does not work when you consider Luffy has dodged and dealt with lasers way before the Timeskip. It already wasn't enough to deal with him even though he was slower, he was overwhelmed by either Lightspeed Danmaku or surprise attacks.

Thus, the line informing the viewer "I am Luffy, and I can dodge these lasers" does not work. It has been established he can do that when he was slower. For this reason I believe the interpretation where Luffy is actually just considering it slow when in comparison to him (which, again, is the Occam's Razor) is more likely.

I don't know why him having dodged lasers in the past means the author can't, again, point out that he can dodge lasers for a cool scene against fodder enemies that have lasers.

There's a whole bunch of considerations in writing, and "never repeating information" is pretty low. Hell, it's often a good thing to repeat information.

So I do not agree with the conclusion you reach by abstracting to this meta level.

Problem is, it's not really common for Oda to do that with something he can simply show.
Oda follows a very "show, don't tell" philosophy.

Also, no, this is no fodder, a pacisfista could single-handedly nearly defeat Luffy's entire crew on its own before the Timeskip. The line was meant to indicate Luffy's enormous growth in speed and reactions. Just like him, one shotting the cyborg, is evidence of his stupidly high growth in strength.

My point is, "Luffy is so overwhelmingly faster than before, which was already relatively close to LS, that the amount of evidence needed to prove he has LS reactions should be exponentially lower", thus making the line a sufficient evidence.

That other evidence is consistent with all interpretations, so I don't think it makes any interpretation more likely.

Not my point. Ain't trying to validate either interpretation, just saying that, if my interpretation is correct, the line would be sufficient.

I guess I can see how you can see otherwise, if you see all of that as a massive amp over 0.57c. But then it still seems really strange me that you'd be advocating for the exact value of SoL (moving in reaction to an event at exactly the speed of light, or perceiving events in the time that light can move 1 meter, but no sooner), instead of FTL. But if you think you've already said as much as you can about that topic, feel free to ignore this.

SoL is the minimum value.

 

[Agnaa]

Problem is, it's not really common for Oda to do that with something he can simply show.
Oda follows a very "show, don't tell" philosophy.

If he showed it with something like Luffy visibly performing movements while the laser barely moves I'd obviously agree that it's FTL.

Also, no, this is no fodder, a pacisfista could single-handedly nearly defeat Luffy's entire crew on its own before the Timeskip. The line was meant to indicate Luffy's enormous growth in speed and reactions. Just like him, one shotting the cyborg, is evidence of his stupidly high growth in strength.

I guess I could say that they're fodder now? Perhaps more of a jobber actually. But if that's a bad way of framing things, my bad.

SoL is the minimum value.

I don't understand this. If light's slower than him, wouldn't the minimum would be, like, 1.01c?

(Again, I think y'all talked about this before, so if you don't want to repeat, feel free to not do so)

 

[Damage3245]

The issue is that Luffy calling the laser slow by itself does not produce a 0.000000003336 second timeframe out of thin air.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

And again you're saying "he called it slow while it moved past his head" without responding to my point about the front of the beam seeming to have already gone way past his head in that panel :v

Yee.. I said while it moved past his head the same thing as you said it...

Basically when it moved past his head/when he dodged, he called it slow while the laser still being there which is why I said that

It would be like this but instead on the bottom right saying too slow while the beam moved past his head

 

[Damage3245]

Yee.. I said while it moved past his head the same thing as you said it...

Basically when it moved past his head/when he dodged, he called it slow while the laser still being there which is why I said that

It would be like this but instead on the bottom right saying too slow while the beam moved past his head

Not all the lasers are that short.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Not all the lasers are that short.

Ok? And? All lasers still are projectiles and continues to move... They still act the same

 

[Agnaa]

Yee.. I said while it moved past his head the same thing as you said it...

Basically when it moved past his head/when he dodged, he called it slow while the laser still being there which is why I said that

It would be like this but instead on the bottom right saying too slow while the beam moved past his head

Myeh, it's not a major language difference, I'd just say "after" instead of "while"

 

[SnookB]

This is spiralling into a pit of nothingness real quick. There's no real arguments against Luffy confirming LS reactions except for "But this interpertation is possible."

If it isn't mentioned, it isn't possible. I'm waiting to see any argument that doesn't rely on someone's personal view and just what's given to us on the page.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The issue is that Luffy calling the laser slow by itself does not produce a 0.000000003336 second timeframe out of thin air.

You seem to focused on the math, then fine, sure.

Let's just go to the second best option, calculating the feat.

 

[Kin201]

There's no real arguments against Luffy confirming LS reactions except for "But this interpertation is possible."

If it isn't mentioned, it isn't possible. I'm waiting to see any argument that doesn't rely on someone's personal view and just what's given to us on the page.

I think at worst, his ratings will look like

"Insert calculated speed", possibly/likely SoL reactions (Considered a lightspeed attack slow)

 

[SnookB]

I think at worst, his ratings will look like

We'll see when/if it gets calced I guess.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bumperino

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

Bump

Me no sure really how to continue this I think, idk

 

[Nierre]

As what was mentioned at some point in the thread, the manga had no implications of Luffy even using Haki to dodge the lasers...

So idk where to go from there

 

[SnookB]

I'm not sure if this is even needed anymore, since now most agree that Luffy didn't even use Haki and still called light speed "slow".

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

since now most agree that Luffy didn't even use Haki and still called light speed "slow".

The future could be cruel

 

[Testarossa002]

Bump

 

[SnookB]

This is almost pointless now that we've agreed Luffy's light timing isn't even confirmed kenbunshoku, just his natural reaction-